12GA Rifle From HELL--


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January 23, 2006, 09:58 PM
Visiting here to let folks know about our latest
big wildcat cartridge.First it was developed by Rob,John
and I over on AR big bore forum.It is a long brass case
made from bmg brass that we put a 12ga size rim on.Rob and
John used a Borchardt falling block action and I used a
Savage 210 bolt action shotgun that I put heavy barrel and
and stock on..In testing I got a 730 gr Dixie hard lead slug
out at 2700 fps.Got a 3/4 oz barnes sabot out at 3900.
Here is picture of our case next to a plastic 12ga shell,
which can also be fired in our chambers.Ed.


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January 23, 2006, 10:01 PM
Wow. Maybe that's what I need to take to Africa!

(Heh. Maybe I'll do it after I get my Ph.D. :D)

How's recoil?


January 23, 2006, 10:05 PM
Holy moly!! That is some overgrown 12G :D

Both those quoted figures make for around 11,000 plus ft lbs ME! Hell - indeed!

Is recoil even manageable???? :eek:

January 23, 2006, 10:06 PM
I hope that Savage ended up at 20 pounds WITH a good muzzle brake:eek: :eek:

Holy Moly!!!!!

January 23, 2006, 10:08 PM
JShirley--Not that bad as gun is built heavy for testing,
25 lbs...It is really what is called a Bore Rifle.
Here is picture of gun.Ed.


January 23, 2006, 10:32 PM
How is accuracy?

January 23, 2006, 10:49 PM
Good freaking hell. Now that is a slug gun.

January 23, 2006, 10:52 PM
Cordex--Haven't shot for groups yet, real bad weather.
Just chrono testing outside backdoor into a big bundle
of hardwood for backstop behind chrono.Gun has a scope
rail I can put on for accuracy testing.Warm weather project.Ed.

January 23, 2006, 11:03 PM
Duplicate threads merged.

January 23, 2006, 11:07 PM
Wouldn't that be a "destructive device?" Or did you get the BATFE to make an exemption because it can take regular 12 ga shells?

January 23, 2006, 11:11 PM
Has John Ross ordered one yet?

January 23, 2006, 11:20 PM
Have you developed a magnum length yet?

January 23, 2006, 11:25 PM
Has John Ross ordered one yet?

Would JOHN MOSES BROWNING Himself order one? that's what I want to know! :evil:

January 23, 2006, 11:28 PM
just the thing for a little social work :evil:

January 23, 2006, 11:31 PM

January 23, 2006, 11:33 PM
You Sir, are insane.:what:

January 23, 2006, 11:34 PM
I don't know if I want to shoot that one or not.:uhoh:

I can see the looks on the guy's faces at the range though.:D :D :D :D :D

January 23, 2006, 11:46 PM
Looks kind of like one of Clark's handgun rounds.

January 23, 2006, 11:55 PM
Preacherman--Good man-Thanks for combining threads,
and the better title..
Ryan--That is why Rob floated idea for this, being able to fire
shotgun rounds(plastic, paper, regular brass cases, our
long brass cases) thus not under ATF rules.They don't
even have to consider it or exempt it.. I have my 700HE, a
long belted 3.87 inch case, built from bmg brass,
that I put through the paperwork and got it registered as sporting case, which took 6 months.So I know the process.
bogie-- He has our number, but he'd want one like Rob
built on the Borchardt.
hksw--We should have ultimate magnum.Here is pic of the


January 24, 2006, 12:00 AM
Perfect for squirrel hunting. How much?

January 24, 2006, 12:05 AM
Now THAT is a versatile cartridge. As a backup you could always beat something to death with the ammo....for small to medium size game you wouldn't even need to shoot it!;)

January 24, 2006, 12:13 AM
Have you developed a magnum length yet?


January 24, 2006, 12:46 AM
Wouldn't that be a "destructive device?" Or did you get the BATFE to make an exemption because it can take regular 12 ga shells?
Yeah, its a sporting type shotgun. They just happened to overbuild it so it can take stronger loads. I heard someone got detached retinas from firing that beast.

January 24, 2006, 12:47 AM
Here is picture of Rob's Borchardt 12GA FH.
Nice looking work he did, the real classic
African style.Ed


January 24, 2006, 01:27 AM
Beautiful work, Gents.:)

January 24, 2006, 01:32 AM
I want that! What kind of 'Borchardt' action is that? Where can I find the build specs for the action?:) ?

January 24, 2006, 02:17 AM
Gordon--Borchardt Rifle Co in NM -- They built action
to start with for 50bmg. It is real heavy and strong,
take more pressure than any brass would.505-535-2923.It
is the biggest falling block you can get.Ed.

January 24, 2006, 05:15 AM
That is an absolute BEAST!! I now know what to bring with me on my Tyrannosaur hunting trip. (If Jurassic Park ever becomes a reality.)

January 24, 2006, 08:06 AM

Good to see you posting on THR again!

How are you keeping stock and action together under all that recoil?


Optical Serenity
January 24, 2006, 09:34 AM
Now that is one serious rifle! I like the idea of an "upgraded" 12 gauge! Great job guys...I look forward to seeing muzzle energy numbers.

January 24, 2006, 09:37 AM
You're my hero. :D

January 24, 2006, 11:12 AM
My stock and action staying together so far.
My top energy load is about 11,900 ft lbs.
Rob's top energy load is 15,000 ft lbs.Ed.

January 24, 2006, 12:30 PM
Do you mind me asking how much that big boy cost?


pete f
January 24, 2006, 02:31 PM
some years ago, when "slug zone" meant 75 yard accuracy with the model 12 and a full choke duck barrel, we tried to make an improvement. The guy iw worked with had a old rolling block in some obscure BP cartridge, I think it was a 11.something egyptian, but that may havejust been one of the options, well we figured that a 20 gq was only a few thousandths bigger than the case head for that chambering. we opened the chamber to fit a 20gq and the creature would extract and so we figured ok why not.
he called around and found someone who had un turned 20 ga barrels and had one rifled. (this was before you could find them on the open market) after fitting and chambering, we loaded some 338 cal bullets in a improvised sabot, loaded up a few rounds and were extremely disappointed, They seemed more like squibs than rull power loads. we decided to try to increase the diameter of the teflon rod OD in order to get a beter burn rate after going up and gett better but still not great performance we then made one that wasa almost a crush fit into the lands and then set that off....BINGO nice big boom, little smoke not a lot of grunge left in the barrel. in the end we were getting something like 2100 fps with 225 gr 338 bullet and accurate to 2 inches at 100 yard, 4 inches at two hundred yards all of a sudden all those big field deer that had walked past us knowing we could not touch them were fair game. this gun was used for several years till he started playing with some mauser (siamese) and 28 ga cases and some smoking loads. It was great fun while it lasted.
I do know that in the 28 guage, he ended up using paper cases because surprisingly they withstood presure better. I think he was using 45 70 305 grainer bullets at 45 70 velocity out of a 28 ga casing.

That lead to some one making a barrel insert for a 20 Ga single that would allow it to shoot 45 70 rounds, that however got taken by the DNR, for violating the shottie only zone. but the barrel insert actually worked quite well. There was a savage 4tenner tube at the store and that was used as a model on a blank that was chambered for 45 70. This was all done by real gunsmiths and machinists, none of this should be done unless you KNOW you have the skill to do it. Most of the test firing was done in a vise with a sand blanket over the weapon. I am not a smith but can handle a mill and lathe and was under supervision on all that i did.

January 24, 2006, 09:56 PM
Mine costs 600 bucks as I did my own work,
had 20 dollar big stock, and 50 dollar barrel
that was a second, and gun was 400 bucks.
Rob's cost over 3 grand as action was 2 grand.Ed

January 25, 2006, 12:13 AM

But let me know when you want a bayonet for it:evil:

January 25, 2006, 01:23 AM
you mean a lance adapter!

-I'm speechless...

So next time Godzilla thinks he can stroll on over, he'll think twice

January 25, 2006, 07:36 AM
so its basically a 12ga shotgun, with a looooooong chamber; and a beefed up/reinforced receiver which uses brass shells and loadings include the slug sticking out ahead of the case mouth unstead of being within it as in a normal sg load?
A 12ga Super-Duper magnum!

p.s. so, where do i get one!

p.p.s. on the 28ga, did you use a sabot with the 45-70 projectiles?

Old Fuff
January 25, 2006, 11:20 AM
I believe that the Savage shotgun action only locks on the bolt handle, and lacks other locking lugs. I would be a bit careful there... :scrutiny:

January 25, 2006, 12:13 PM
Old Fuff--It realy is strong and safe--Savage 210 has a
3 lug bolt head,,They took the regular Savage 110
rifle bolt handle and bolt body and put a large diameter
bolt head on it with 3 lugs---And it is all carried in a
3 sided bolt carrier--And action is fairly large--
I opened loading port to over 4 iches long--changed bolt stop
to handle cases 1 inch longer than 3 inch mag 12ga shells..
And our chamber will still fire regular short shotshells,
Here is picture of Savage bolt next to the Enfield bolt
ou of my 458HE,to show how big it is.Ed.


January 25, 2006, 12:37 PM
you mean a lance adapter!


pretty much

January 25, 2006, 01:46 PM
When you gonna it make an auto? :D :what: :D

January 25, 2006, 06:20 PM
MrTwigg--Then it would really be a handful-

cpilari-It really is super, that's why Rob named it
12GA From Hell....When you think about it here is a
Savage shotgun action putting out more power than
460wea,510ASq,600NE ,577NE, 700NE,Trex,etc.
Super is the word.Ed.

January 25, 2006, 07:00 PM
Too bad it's .72 12 gauge and not slightly larger, say, 10 gauge...

Anyone else channeling Johnny Dangerously?

Danny Vermin: "It's an .88 magnum. It shoots through schools."

"This goes through armor. And the victim. And the wall behind him. And a tree outside...":evil:

January 25, 2006, 11:16 PM
Madmike--It is .729 groove diameter.The action could
do a ten guage as rim and base is only .050 inch bigger.
As long as you use heavy thick barrel like we did,
with ten guage bore of .775..There is no brass though,
that could be converted to a long brass 10ga case like
we did for 12ga.Ed.

January 26, 2006, 12:02 AM
I want it to have my children

Sir Aardvark
January 26, 2006, 12:41 AM
Truly, it is a monster!

So when does the 10 gauge version come out?

January 26, 2006, 12:47 AM
Aardvark - see back three or so posts ago - It is .729 groove diameter.The action could
do a ten guage as rim and base is only .050 inch bigger.
As long as you use heavy thick barrel like we did,
with ten guage bore of .775..There is no brass though,
that could be converted to a long brass 10ga case like
we did for 12ga.Ed.

January 26, 2006, 02:28 AM
P95--The only thing that could work is 50cal russian,but they are Berdan primed and takes too much money to get them and
convert them as well as put on a rim..Rob,John, I and
others have done a lot of this stuff, and it gets to
be a expensive pain with berdan cases.Ed.

January 26, 2006, 02:38 AM

The Savage could take smaller cases, like maybe 600 NE at full pressure, right? In fact if I read correctly, one may even be able to make it feed a round or 2 from the magazine. Seems like a chep way to get some recoil therapy.


January 26, 2006, 02:59 AM
Madmike--It is .729 groove diameter.The action could
do a ten guage as rim and base is only .050 inch bigger.
As long as you use heavy thick barrel like we did,
with ten guage bore of .775..There is no brass though,
that could be converted to a long brass 10ga case like
we did for 12ga.Ed.

I was mistaking the size of 10 gauge as being near .88, for the Johnny Dangerously reference. Sorry for the confusion.

January 26, 2006, 11:13 AM
Perfect for squirrel hunting. How much?:cool:

Ahh you beat me too it!

January 26, 2006, 01:39 PM
only1-Yes the action could handle 500NE, 577NE, 600NE at top
rifle pressure levels, where they are not loaded to right now
in the guns they are used in,like doubles,It could handle
full pressures in 500ASq,etc,It could handle Same pressure
as I am doing now, 35,000, in the 700NE, which is what
they load them, for doubles.
Madmike-The 88 reference may be to the tank round, as
when my gun is ready to go, I say to people to stand behind as
it sounds like an 88.Ed.

January 26, 2006, 02:19 PM
Ed - out of interest and if you are able to divulge - what charge of what powder??

I am seeing this as not too different from an ''overgrown'' 45-70 with regard to long parallel case with heavy projectile atop. My top load 45-70's are probably pushing the upper 35,000 limit - I checked back thru the thread and seem to recall a mention of that same pressure figure with this beast - is that right?

Seems this would require a pretty slow powder to safely accelerate the large pill. Energy figures seem to be around 50 BMG level.

January 26, 2006, 02:29 PM
When are you going to start on +P loads?

January 26, 2006, 04:22 PM
Bowfin--Rob does the P+ in the Borchardt which can handle
60-70,000 psi loads.

P95-- Yes we get BMG energy levels, only with a fatter
bullet.Yes I use slow high energy ball powders.And stay
below 35,000.Most loads less than 30,000, like with
730gr hard lead slug and 320g of WC-860 surplus I get
2400 fps,Same bullet with 320gr of AA Magpro gives
2700 fps,for a 35k load.Now I could go to 3000 with W-760/W748, but pressures
would be above what I wanted for the thickness of the action.
If I can get heavy walled action done to put 3 lug bolt and
parts that is in present Savage 210, into, then it could go to higher pressures-Ed.

January 26, 2006, 04:31 PM
What I wonder is whether or not it would be safe to chamber this rifle in .50BMG. Would the pressure be too high in the Savage action?

January 26, 2006, 04:42 PM
Mustanger--It would do if you keep pressures down, but I
don't know what powder.Maybe use charcoal.It would have to
be much slower than Hogdons H50 BMG, which is the slowest
I have,And you couldn't go below 90% case volume with powder fill
trying to get lower velocities, as you risk detonation,
a problem with part loads of slow powders.Sguib loads using
AA 5744 might do but I am not brave enough to try, on that
big of bottlenecked case.Ed.

January 26, 2006, 04:52 PM
hubel458, I see what you're saying.

Another possible issue would be whether or not a .50BMG could even be fed into the chamber without removing the bolt, but that's a small isssue, and a non-issue, if the rest of the load is unsafe.

Much as I like to handload, I may be crazy according to some people I know, but I ain't stupid. I think I'll let this one alone. Now, to fire it as a 12guage slug in that modified .50BMG case looks rather tame.

January 26, 2006, 06:14 PM
Mustanger98--Yep 50 cal isn't the end all anymore,
but when you can take 12ga lead slugs and get same power,now that is special.And I know a few with the 700NE fever,that
see our old Savage as a way to get there.Especially those
guys doing their own work..Ed.

January 26, 2006, 06:36 PM
I can't wait until Smith & Wesson comes out with it in revolver form!:)

January 26, 2006, 07:56 PM
I can't wait until Smith & Wesson comes out with it in revolver form!

Don't worry they will.

Have you tried any buckshot loads in that yet?

January 26, 2006, 08:00 PM
But is it more powerful than the .45 ACP?

January 26, 2006, 08:46 PM
Nice work... I'll keep that in mind if I ever need some anti-aircraft rounds... :evil:

January 26, 2006, 08:47 PM
nfl1990--I've got to get some big shot cups and buckshot,
next week hopefully, and see how it works.Ed.

January 26, 2006, 08:51 PM
Thx for load feedback Ed - hmmmm - 22 loads to the # - this thing is a real powder burner!:eek: :).


January 26, 2006, 09:00 PM
Now THAT is a versatile cartridge. As a backup you could always beat something to death with the ammo....for small to medium size game you wouldn't even need to shoot it!;)

Yeah... just showing off the shell would be enough for surrender, or cause instant cardiac arrest!!! :what: :what:

Great for small game, if you only intend to taxi the FEET!!! :neener: :D

January 26, 2006, 10:22 PM
Nice work... I'll keep that in mind if I ever need some anti-aircraft rounds... :evil:

I know that had to be a joke because as an anti-aircraft deal, this being single shot, it'd have the same problem as a Barrett .50BMG. Keep up that kind of talk and you'll have the gun grabbers after this one too.

January 26, 2006, 10:50 PM
Madmike-The 88 reference may be to the tank round, as
when my gun is ready to go, I say to people to stand behind as
it sounds like an 88.Ed.

No the .88 magnum was in the movie Johnny Dangerously, with several jokes about extreme firepower.

January 26, 2006, 11:02 PM
Whatever you do, don't add a pistol grip or a threaded muzzle-I want this to be CALIFORNIA LEGAL!!!!! :evil:

I think we can end the debate over "Best one shot stopper". Can anyone say, "DNA remains testing"? :what: :D

January 26, 2006, 11:48 PM
What does it take machine wise to build something like that? A friend has been entertained by this thread for the past week and really wants it.

JShirley--Not that bad as gun is built heavy for testing,
25 lbs...It is really what is called a Bore Rifle.
Here is picture of gun.Ed.


January 27, 2006, 12:31 AM
Mrmevel--Lathe to thread barrel, shape barrel, mill to
open the loading port for more length and level bottom of reciever to fit a steel recoil block that I put in the stock, adding extra lug on barrel for recoil or use a barrel band for recoil - tools for inleting stock(there is no stock you can buy to fit,and light plastic one it comes with won't work), grinders,etc.Ed.

January 27, 2006, 07:23 PM
Recovered one of the Dixie 730 gr slugs stopped by
4 ft of hardwood in a bundle.It was turned into a lump
but still had 81% of original weight..Great way to
transfer all the energy into the target.Ed.

January 28, 2006, 04:09 AM
Ok, you know what, I'm sure everyone here agrees when I say...


January 28, 2006, 11:42 AM

Pardon a question from a newbie to the board (thank madmike for crossposting a linke to this) but what is the case volume for this monster?

Mustanger--It would do if you keep pressures down, but I
don't know what powder.Maybe use charcoal.It would have to
be much slower than Hogdons H50 BMG, which is the slowest
I have,And you couldn't go below 90% case volume with powder fill
trying to get lower velocities, as you risk detonation,
a problem with part loads of slow powders.Sguib loads using
AA 5744 might do but I am not brave enough to try, on that
big of bottlenecked case.Ed.

January 28, 2006, 01:21 PM
taralon-capacity is 355gr water.
spiggy..we plan on getting pics and video
when good weather gets here.

Antibubba- this even, as big as it is, isn't
ultimate stopper for game, bunch of us are going to
make 2 and 4 bores.I also have 700HE with more
power to test in a couple months, and down
the road the 900HE.Here is pic for
your pleasure, of 4 our bore cases,
with 2000gr bullets, next to 20mm brass we make
them from, and 06 case for comparison.Ed.


January 29, 2006, 10:41 AM
Hubel, thank you very much for that information.

January 29, 2006, 11:28 AM
The ATF is okay with a 4 bore? The letter I got from them said it'd be a DD...

January 29, 2006, 01:40 PM
On the bright side, it'd be almost impossible to lose your brass....


January 29, 2006, 02:58 PM
Third Rail
Others have built 4 bores and haven't even had to deal
with atf or even bothered by them.In fact colarado guy built
some in falling blocks, guy in TN built some in doubles,
guy in AK built and was written upin magazines,distributor
in midwest imported and sold large number of 4 bore russian
pump guns, and I know 2 guys who have them and haven't been bothered or do the registration bit, with 200buck tax.
If it becomes an issue we will just send in papers and get it registered as sporting use like I did my 700. ATF isn't
all on same track, but the one dept that checks over 50cal
stuff for sporting use/dd exemption has approved all that
have asked.Ed.

January 29, 2006, 03:44 PM
guy in AK built and was written upin magazines,

Actually, he was from the NWT, but AFAIK, as long as its solid slug and not explosive, large caliber are fine. I think there's a limit on case capacity.

January 29, 2006, 04:13 PM
Mike--I think limit is 1/4 lb of powder in the case.

Title 18 Gun Control act -
Sec 921 (a) (4) (B) says in describing a DD, says

any over 50cal, except shotgun calibers.

So that covers all bores from 2 to 28 bore or gauge.

Then has exemtion in part (C) that says any over

50 cal that they determine is antique or sporting.

And that last is what we get stuff registered as sporting,
that isn't gauge or bore sizes over 50 cal.

January 30, 2006, 01:17 PM
hubel458, what's the process for getting an exemption from the BATFE for >.50?

January 30, 2006, 08:11 PM
You send them aletter requesting an exemption for your
cartridge,asking for it to be registered for sporting use.
Also include a description of the sporting type
arms used in, like break actions, falling block actions,
bolt actions. Must send in drawing of case with dimensions.
Then wait.
Back to 12GA from Hell--Here is pic of case in a
modified Martini Greener..Sometime will try to build a heavy
wall version with changes to use case in.By building
wider and thicker, can change pivot hookup, it will handle
long case, It was originally regular 12ga action.Ed.


January 30, 2006, 11:54 PM
Not only do I want to pictures of that thing in action, I want to see a video clip of the other folks at the range while you're there!! :D :uhoh:

February 1, 2006, 12:18 AM
Here is a picture of our cases with 3
different bullets and a case with original rim
turned off and threaded to take the 12ga size
rims shown in pic.Ed


February 2, 2006, 05:57 AM

I thought Rob's Borchardt actioned rifle looked familiar, then I ran across a photo of it's greatgrandfather. Only 5000 pounds, maybe I could find a couple of guys to go in on it.

What is it? Cogswell & Harrison 8 bore falling block. Nitro proofed, but for round balls. An old school beauty, I posted the pic to show just how close Rob's gun follows the work of a London gun makers falling block single. I think the family resemblence in uncanny.


February 2, 2006, 06:17 AM
I am truly impressed. Niiiice. More photos! :D

February 2, 2006, 11:39 PM
If you do your own work on building one like
Rob's, you do for lot less than that...And that
Borchardt is nothing like the old, in fact it
is big enough for a 10-8-4 bore/gauges.Ed..

February 4, 2006, 08:20 PM
Here is a picture of the bolt holding a case.The top
of the bolt is to camera and up where top lug
is and I wanted to show extension
added to left lower lug that holds case along with
top lug extension and extractor on opposite side...Ed


February 6, 2006, 11:51 AM
Got folks going to use NEF Ultra II slug guns,
by lengthening chamber.These are heavy barrel 12ga
built on a 10ga NEF frame.I started out with 305
brasswith rims on and have only 75 left.They
have got the fever..Ed

February 6, 2006, 11:54 AM
Got folks going to use NEF Ultra II slug guns,
by lengthening chamber.These are heavy barrel 12ga
built on a 10ga NEF frame.I started out with 305
brasswith rims on and have only 75 left.They
have got the fever..Ed

OOOooooh! How much? I'd want ammo and a bored barrel.

February 6, 2006, 06:47 PM
Mike-I can get you some cases, but you will have
to get gunsmith to lengthen chamber.Ed.

February 6, 2006, 07:53 PM
Wonderful rifles. Well done! How many times can you reload the cases before they become unusable?

Also, I'm wondering about the 4 bore's bullets. How on earth do you get jackets for that large a bullet? In the pic they look similar in shape to slugs, but larger and jacketed.

February 7, 2006, 12:58 AM
Balog--At pressures in my gun, max 30-35,000, never wear
them out.Have to anneal top third every 50 rounds.One fired 33 times and no sizing needed on bottom half.

For 4 bore bullet bullets they use big hydraulic
press(A Corbin) to make jackets from copper sheets
and then to press lead and jacket together.Also there is
a company that now makes jackets with a huge factory
stamping press, supplying bullet makers.Ed.

February 7, 2006, 12:02 PM
31. I am NOT authorized to start a revolution. Even if I prepare a briefing proving my Oath of Enlistment says I should.

I can't get that site to come up. Looks like another stack of stuff for http://www.skippyslist.com or my addenda at http://www.michaelzwilliamson.com/rants/skippylist.php

But yes, my oath DOES in fact authorize and require I start a revolution if called for.

February 7, 2006, 12:14 PM
Perfect for squirrel hunting. How much?

Yes, just shoot the tree down and let the Jack Russell go!:)


February 8, 2006, 10:33 AM
And if shooting tree down makes for a herd of
mad squirrels you've got a stopper.Ed.

February 9, 2006, 11:15 PM
Some have been mentioning using guns with lenghtened
chambers and our case for deer in shotgun hunting areas.
Already been fired once in an Encore 12ga. There was a
discussion of game wardens. etc. Well most shotguns
smooth and rifled have 12 GA and the length stamped
on barrels.There is 2 1/2, 2 3/4, 3, 3 1/2, so I say
stamp ours "12 GA 3 3/4 FH". Any thoughts from folks
here about this.Ed.

February 10, 2006, 09:44 AM
Stamp it 3 3/4" MAGNUM or something very distinctive. It's no ordinary shotgun round.

February 10, 2006, 10:16 AM
Stamp it 3 3/4" MAGNUM or something very distinctive. It's no ordinary shotgun round.

I concur.

February 11, 2006, 10:15 PM
I found some long shotcups that holds 2 oz buckshot
or 2.5 oz birdshot.try it out in a couple weeks.
Just fill case 60% powder, put in cup, add shot,put
a wad on,as they fit tightn , and go boom. won't
even have to resize. just reprime and do it again.
Using shot cup to keep shot from leading rifling...Ed.

February 13, 2006, 11:46 PM
How about "3 3/4 OMG" ? :D

Or, since this is a game-getter, "3 3/4 ****WTFBBQ"? :evil:

February 15, 2006, 01:27 AM
Trying to keep name simple and redneck hence
12GA From Hell.You know your a bigbore redneck,
when all your guns are singleshot and your safari
car is doublebarrel..Ed


February 16, 2006, 05:10 PM
Shot a load of 18 buckshot, about 700gr in a shotcup.
Had case 60% full of powder, and a 16ga wad on top of shot
in shotcup..all tight fit..Pattern due to wad and rifling
was 3 ft at 25 ft and shot went most of the way through
3/4 in tempered hardboard desktop.Must have been going about
2000 fps.Ed.

February 19, 2006, 04:43 AM
Here is picture of case sectioned that was fired 36 times,
No thinning seen or and none that can be measured.
Good tough brass with big primers, so no ignition
problems, should last for couple hundred firings..Ed


February 20, 2006, 11:46 PM
here is picture showing what us crazies will do
to work over brass for our creations.In pic the long die
laying down is used to size top half of 12GA Fh case,
and other die does bottom..Bottom die is a cut off
hollywood 12ga die..Top die is reworked 700NE mouth
belling die with top removed.We rework inside dimensions
and taper with small cylinder hones as shown in pic.
The rest of the 700NE die set was cut up and reworked for
my 700HE cases and other stuff.Ed.


February 24, 2006, 12:14 AM
Here is pic of Savage with 700NE in the port.Got
a guy going to build one.Ed


February 26, 2006, 10:26 PM
Comparison of cartridges--Here is pic of 700NE,
2nd 12GA FH, 3rd 700HE..Ed


February 26, 2006, 11:00 PM
Now THAT is an anti-refrigerator rifle :what: :what: :what: :eek: :eek:

February 28, 2006, 10:58 AM
MSGT9410--Yep and I don't have a fortune in it.
About 600 bucks as I did my own work.Ed.

March 2, 2006, 08:34 PM
Fellow in Australia suggested we check out this heavy
Spanish double.He and others are checking on specs
for me to see if it will do a 12GA FH setup. The site
says they have alloy barrels, which is great.Ed


March 4, 2006, 09:57 PM
I collected a bunch of the 730gr hard Dixie lead slugs
from the bundle of slabs, and nearly all had more
than 3/4 of their weight left.This is great considering
22-2400 fps speed for all but 3, which were 2700.Ed.

March 4, 2006, 10:07 PM
Geez, which planet do you intend on going hunting?

March 4, 2006, 11:24 PM
Retnav-Oh this one has big enough game,
grizzlys, buffalo, other african types.
And can be loaded down for deer and hogs.Ed.

March 5, 2006, 10:34 PM
I think one in a semi-auto would be nice:)

March 7, 2006, 03:05 AM
travis- one party who got some of the cases is going
to make one on an AR50 upper he has, a bolt action.
I wouldn't be supprised if an autoloader popped up
somewhere for the case.Ed.

March 8, 2006, 09:22 PM
That Zabala double I posted picture of is smooth bore
but would work with our case and the new hard slugs Dixie
is trying out.Hollowbase and set up to shoot accurate
in smooth bores.And gun I've heard is little
over grand..If this would work, be
nice to have double rifle power for a fraction
of regular NE doubles.Ed


March 11, 2006, 01:04 AM
Found a regular 12ga brass case and it's pictured here,
sectioned with ours to show how much stronger ours is.
And ours in pic is the one we fired 36 times.Also
the regular 12ga brass case was expanded so much from
firing it wouldn't go into bottom of resize die..Ed


March 13, 2006, 12:34 PM
Here is comparison of different lead slugs.
One on far right is 875 grain hardened slug Greg
Sappington makes.Got to test it yet. Third is
Dixie Terminator 730 gr hardened slug, that I
got to 2700 without leading. Ed.


March 15, 2006, 09:53 PM
Shot another buckshot load, little more velocity than
first loads...... pattern big due to
rifling but not as big as first as I put piece of
playdough over shot in shotcup instead of a wad.
They went through 3/4 inch desktop made of tough
tempered hardboard, and couple went through 1/8 inch
steel shelf end the board was on.Ed.

March 18, 2006, 08:24 PM
Did more checking on Encore.Did some measuring at
gunstore They will work with longer and
a real heavy barrel and a weighted thumbhole
buttstock.And long barrel to get weight and get the blast away from shooter. If I did one I'd make it 20
pounds at least. They will handle moderate pressure
with heavy barrel, muzzle same size as breech, so
that it will hold rifle type loadings.Would have to be alloy
barrel like I have on Savage for strength.Ed.

March 19, 2006, 04:10 AM
I just had a really dumb idea. It'd be possible to make a kind of bottlenecked case which narrows to .729" outside diameter, 2 3/4" or 3" up from the case rim, and uses heeled bullets. That way, you wouldn't even need to use different chamber dimensions from a regular 12 gauge.

It'd be "interesting" to work up some 11,500 PSI loads for a standard shotgun. You'd probably have to load the cases with black powder, and use grains the size of driveway gravel...

What I want, eventually, is a 16 gauge rifle. Call it something like the .666 Beelzebubba. :evil:

March 20, 2006, 12:59 PM
Ryan--That is a different idea for sure.Cost of making dies
to form case like that and heeled bullets would add up.
Our case now just has rim put on and only
needs fireforming and no resizing on bottom half at all,
when firing and reloading.
And dies are easy to make straightwall, or find.
And simple heat treated slugs are only 65 cents each if we
don't want to make our own.That compared to swaged jacketed
bullets in those sizes costing 3-5 times as much
makes it a bargain.Ed.

March 20, 2006, 11:35 PM
my question is:

Did the designing of this firearm co-incide with you going out and seeing the new king kong movie?

March 21, 2006, 03:45 AM
no giant ape can withstand the power of the evil 12ga rifle from hell! :D

March 23, 2006, 08:57 PM
Never saw movie, in fact didn't know there was a new
one. I just like building blasters out of bmg cases and
simple conversions of existing guns and actions.That
Savage 12GA FH outdoes the 700NE, Nyati, 600NE, Trex,
and all that is a great source of accomplishment. Ed

March 25, 2006, 08:05 PM
Checked a couple NEF Ultra Slug guns, 10 and 12ga.Real heavy
barrels, but not alloy barrels. Could cut off barrel ahead of
pivot, and machine and internal thread it, for a monoblock
to put a heavy long alloy barrel into. Treat the monoblock
to higher strength. Put on a weighted thumbhole buttstock
that in combo with heavy barrel, would be 16-20 lbs and you
be set for our case.Ed.

March 25, 2006, 09:32 PM
a very interesting project. congratulations on your success :)

March 27, 2006, 12:25 PM
Robert-Thankyou--Rob, John ,and I worked on this for
over two years and it is great to see it get a
little notoriety. I've posted info on couple dozen forums
and got hundreds of responses and over 45,000 views,Ed.

March 29, 2006, 07:21 PM
A few are interested in setting up guns for our
caliber..I have a few extra cases yet and I can get
anyone needing cases to where they can get them
with rims on ready to fireform.Reamers are expensive and
I can chamber barrels for others with tooling I have,
for fraction of reamers cost, to help. I just can't work on recievers.Ed.

March 31, 2006, 02:59 AM
Tested a 870gr hardened cast bullet that Greg Sappington
makes.Got it to 2300 fps at moderate pressures,and
lightened it with hollowpoint to get it to 2500 showing
no signs of leading the barrel. Greg will like that.
No regular 12ga has been able to test them that fast.
Here is pic of 3 870 gr slugs with one in a case.Ed


April 3, 2006, 12:05 AM
Had a question about costs per shot--
For me 5 buck per lb surplus powder, hard slug 70 cents,
primer 24 cents, adds up to $1.15 per shot.20 buck, canister
powder makes it $1.75. Not bad considering the
power we are getting.Ed

April 5, 2006, 02:05 AM
Tested a 500 gr solid at 2800 fps. I used 750 gr hollowbase
banded solid, shortened a little and hollowpointed.Tried it out to see how fast it could go in Savage at lower
pressures I use.Ed.

April 9, 2006, 04:02 AM
Anyone wants any cartridges with slugs for their collections
I have some extras. Let me know.Ed

Giolli Joker
April 9, 2006, 03:30 PM
Had a question about costs per shot--
For me 5 buck per lb surplus powder, hard slug 70 cents,
primer 24 cents, adds up to $1.15 per shot.20 buck, canister
powder makes it $1.75. Not bad considering the
power we are getting.Ed
It's nearly the same price I pay every .454 factory round.:banghead: ;)

BTW, have you ever seen this?
It's a revolver made by an Italian gunsmith, it shoots 12 gauge rounds similar to yours (but the brass isn't from the .50 BMG).
If you're interested I can translate the webpage.;)

April 9, 2006, 03:55 PM
I've seen that. He uses regular length brass 12ga
cases, like Magtech and others make. Ed.

April 9, 2006, 04:42 PM
Ed, I'm a machinist in Tallahassee, FL. I'd love to get one of those cases if you did not mind.

April 9, 2006, 07:43 PM
Buzztail- Yes I can get you one, got to ship to 2 others
this week also. Also anyone else.
Email me- gunowner@journey.com --Ed.

Hellion Productions
April 9, 2006, 08:10 PM
Mr. Hubel,

Email sent.

John Bear Ross

Ol` Joe
April 10, 2006, 12:39 AM
Ed, One more interested..............E-mail on the way.:D

April 10, 2006, 07:12 PM
LOL, Hubel. You're everywhere. I even saw your thread over at Practical Machinist.:scrutiny:

You seem to have missed Home Machinist (http://www.chaski.org/homemachinist/), though.:D

Giolli Joker
April 10, 2006, 07:18 PM
I've seen that. He uses regular length brass 12ga
cases, like Magtech and others make. Ed.
Yes, but he probably loads them to higher pressure since he doesn't work on existing actions.;)

April 11, 2006, 01:20 AM
I dont recall it being requested, but can we get a video of this beast being fired? :D Please.

April 11, 2006, 10:35 PM
We hope to video it this summer. If Johnny gets up
this way, I'll get him to put it on his show.Ed.

April 16, 2006, 01:44 AM
Here is picture of original Savage and the heavy barrel
that I put on it. Quite a bit more weight and length.
The action is shown in the heavy maple stock I used, and
the original was light plastic stock.Ed


April 16, 2006, 03:37 AM
Holy u know, I think we're all looking forward to some ballistics charts and coefficients... I think I still might be interested in a short barrel for home regardless, how 'bout a double barrell 2 trigger cowboy style... "wrong house, sir":evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

April 17, 2006, 09:09 PM
Medic--Good home defense load with buckshot.Not full
tilt loads/As far as doubles we are checking on some
to see if they will work.Ed.

April 20, 2006, 07:01 PM
Here is pictur of a neat slug a guy is building.
It is .629 and he is trying to find/make a sabot
to get it to .729 for 12ga. When he does we will test it.
Its design also make it stable in smooth bore.Ed


Hellion Productions
April 21, 2006, 12:56 AM
Mr. Hubel,

I recieved my cartridge yesterday. Thank you very much for the quick shipping, and thorough packaging.

I'm looking forward to working up a smoothbore piece in this chambering.

John Bear Ross

April 22, 2006, 11:41 PM
John--Glad you like it-Good luck with project.
Here is picture of the original Bridger 750 gr banded solid
flat nose. 2nd is a semi-spitzer 640grI made from it, long range
capable(for vicious p-dogs). 3rd is a shortened round nose 500gr
I made from first one.And a Foster slug to compare with.Ed


April 23, 2006, 01:03 AM
Someone expecting Graboids in their basement? :confused:

April 25, 2006, 12:28 AM
If not them, big rats. Shot loads ought to work.
Getting so many ideas on different slugs and sabot
loads,many for smoothbore,I going to have to get
a smoothbore to test with.Ed

Heavy Barrel
April 25, 2006, 08:09 AM
Not trying to start a war but enlighten me on its usefullness other than a toy.

April 25, 2006, 04:55 PM
Cartridge that will kill any biological life form on the earth in short order, useful enough I guess. :cool:

*edited for grammar/spelling.

Heavy Barrel
April 25, 2006, 08:04 PM
I'll buy that!:D

April 26, 2006, 09:12 PM
The biggest benefit will be for shotgun only
hunters....They may even get feeling so good,
that they will look down their noses at rifle
guys having only puny cartridges.HaHah..Ed.

April 28, 2006, 07:56 PM
Lefteris from greece clued me in on the Nova pumpgun.
Looked at Benelli Nova pump 12ga. It has
rotary bolt, 2 locking lugs. And they lock
into a reciever section that barrel screws into and that reciever locks into action.
Lefteris sent me the info and measurements,and
reciver ring is nearly as big as reciever on my Savage. So a heavy alloy barrel could be put
in and Lefteris figured out a way to increase
the bolt lug contact area. Should handle
25k psi.Now big question- how many other
brands of pump 10&12 gauges have rotary locking bolts,either into barrel or reciever?...I
know Al's big 4bore Tula does also.Ed.

May 4, 2006, 01:26 AM
Here is some sabot experimenting I did.Shot a couple of
A-Sq 900gr 600 NE slugs in a sabot I made from a heavy
12ga shotcup.Got it to 2300 at my moderate pressures.Here is picture showing slugs, shotcup and one loaded.Shotcup in case
is first one I made- too short. The ones finally used were full
length of slug up to ogive.Ed.


May 4, 2006, 12:53 PM
...a 900 gr sabot.

Holy freakin CARP.

Use enough gun, eh?


May 4, 2006, 06:05 PM
:what: say again :eek: backspace and repeat :uhoh:

How about calling it the .729 Redneck?:D

bout time there was some good publicity for that epithet.

May 4, 2006, 06:47 PM
How about calling it the .729 Redneck?

Dangit, I just had beer shoot from my nostrils. That is too funny.

May 4, 2006, 07:50 PM
Is recoil even manageable????

Better yet, is the recoil survivable??


May 4, 2006, 10:26 PM
I imagine recoil would be ok but I'm not sure I could keep a 25 lb gun held straight for more than one or two shots.

May 5, 2006, 12:32 AM
It's not bad to hold.And if I used it regular for the
field I'd take off 5 lbs. Tailgunner a poster around the net fired it 6 times and held it ok and he is little guy.
It is such a rush firing it that it pumps you up,
kinda gives strength to deal with the weight.Ed.

May 5, 2006, 02:08 AM
I think the Winchester 1300 has a rotary bolt head, I believe with 4 locking lugs as well. I could be wrong though.

May 5, 2006, 08:29 AM
I thought the Win 1300 also had a sintered receiver. If so, :eek:

Ol` Joe
May 5, 2006, 10:16 AM
If the M1300 is similar to the old 1200 it replaced, it locks in the barrel not the reciever so the material used there dosen`t matter too much. I did hear though they are gone along with the M94 and M70, built in the same plant. The M1200 BTW had a aluminum alloy reciever.

May 6, 2006, 12:39 AM
Just saw pics of Win 1200-1400 in Gunparts
catalog and they have a rotating bolt that
locks into barrel, with what looks like 4 lugs.
So it has possibilities with heavy barrel, like the
Benelli Nova. Ed.

May 6, 2006, 04:14 PM
I will say after reading every page of this I have nothing but respect for the quality of your work on this project. This is one fantastic rifle.

A tip O' the Stetson to you ! Again, great work ! :D

May 8, 2006, 04:56 PM
Thanks MrTwigg--Soon we will be testing a few Dixie
Hollowbase hardened slugs, for speed.And some brass slugs
from Greece. Very interesting project.There is an order
getting set up to have Hawk make some soft jacketed
750 gr 12ga bullets.Ed.

May 11, 2006, 02:30 AM
Measured the 12ga sabot for the 3/4 oz Barnes
that Federal loads, will also hold various 500 S&W bullets
out there and the lightest 505 bullets.The 3/4 oz Barnes
is .500 diameter. 505 fits pretty good also.Amazing all the stuff you can put together for our cartridge.Ed.

Wes Janson
May 12, 2006, 04:31 PM
Unbelievable. It's truly special to see such wild experimentation going on, unfortunately not a common sight. I only wish I lived closer, so I could watch firsthand. Neat!

May 15, 2006, 12:02 AM
More experimenting with sabots--I found that
the front section of a 50 bmg bore rider bullet, it
is 2nd in picture, fits in the sabot. It
is 470 grains, really streamlined.And
you can buy them by the ton, just cut back
portion that is .510 diameter, off, and that leaves
front part for a .500 dia bullet,
1.5 inches long..Good for armor plated chucks.
First in picture is original
sabot with Barnes 3/4 oz hollowpoint slug.
3rd is the 900gr 600NE slug in my sabot
made from heavy shotcup. Got it up to 2300,low pressure.
4th on the miniature digital scale is an older Barnes .580 cal
saboted slug expanded, it's 435gr.Ed.


May 15, 2006, 12:05 AM
900 grain/2300 - wow!!! :):eek: :)

Geez, that's approx 10,500 ft lbs - heck - dambuster material !!!

May 16, 2006, 09:23 PM
p95-And if Rob shot it in his gun, that stands BMG
pressures, it would max out at 3000 plus fps.Ed.

May 16, 2006, 09:29 PM
Phew 3000+ - hey, leaving aside any legalities - that sucker with a hardened insert would be wicked against armor :eek:

In fact daresay that, per the 2300 speed, would defeat some substantial steel plate! Awesome :)

May 17, 2006, 09:48 AM
Phew 3000+ - hey, leaving aside any legalities - that sucker with a hardened insert would be wicked against armor
As long as no one makes a production pistol in this caliber, legalities shouldn't be an issue at all.

May 17, 2006, 12:43 PM
Legalities are no problem for long guns as long as it fires
all 12ga cases same or shorter than its chamber.And hard inserts in bullets, solid brass bullets, steel jacketed bullets are
no problem, as they are used for target,etc use now.Now
many states don't allow hard bullets for deer hunting as they
want bullets to stop if possible in the animal.Ed.

May 17, 2006, 02:52 PM
I was wondering if it would be possible to manufacture a conversion barrel for this which would allow function on a standard 10 gauge single shot frame.

Before everyone jumps on me for even sugesting it, (I know the pressures would blow up a standard action)

if the conversion barrel had a breach block with a locking head attached and integral firing pin

and only used the single barrel receiver as a hammer/trigger assembly, NOT to resist pressure.

it might be a way to avoid the legality of manufacturing a receiver in this caliber, while still allowing it to be more widely available.

It would definitly breathe some new life into the old single shots.

May 17, 2006, 07:41 PM
AJAX22-That idea may work, also Rob got 750 gr
up to 1800 in an Encore. He cut our case
back to 3 inches. I looked at NEF 10ga heavy
barrel and if an alloy barrel was used it would
do more. My gun is only running 30,000 psi.Lighter
break actions,the 730gr at 2500 would be all the recoil
you could handle.My gun is 25 lb bolt action.
Now there is no legal restrictions on building recievers
for shotguns for yourself, but if your going to make for sale
then you have to have manufacturers license.
If you make any actions for sale, need manufacture license.
In fact no prohibition in building for anything over
50cal for yourself as long as you pay tax and register it.
That is why we got sporting exemption for 550 Mag, 700HE,
and NE cases, etc, so that registering & tax is excused.
This is all per Title 18 GCA.Ed

May 23, 2006, 11:52 PM
We shot a 6 gallon bucket of water, that was sealed.
Like a shower. Will get pic of one ungluing in
few days.Ed.

May 27, 2006, 10:00 PM
Shot a 610 grain hollowpoint Dixie hard
slug into 6 gallon sealed pail of water.
Going 2800 fps, and real big hollowpoint.
First pic is pail with crimped on top.
Pail full and has filler spout capped.
Second pic,impact with water atomising,
and pail blowing apart.In the next small
fraction of a second is third after impact
with shelf cleared, the hyrostatic pressure
down, has bent top of steel frame shelf.
Same blast put jug pieces all over.
Got to get a 15 gallon one. Behind
you see my wood bundle backstop...Ed




May 27, 2006, 11:11 PM
:eek: :eek: :eek: Now that is spectacular!



May 28, 2006, 12:08 AM
Torch the weeds, water the lawn, and scare off any critters eating your garden, all with one handy shot! :D

May 29, 2006, 12:06 AM

:what: :what: :what: :eek: :eek: :eek: :uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh: :D :D :D

May 31, 2006, 02:47 AM
Mike-Here is long view of exploding pail.Ed


May 31, 2006, 11:31 AM
Absolute lunacy. :what:

June 4, 2006, 11:16 PM
It is a virus, called loonyshootitis syndrome.....Ed

June 25, 2006, 08:54 PM
I picked up a 12ga NEF Ultra Slug gun.24 in shorty barrel.
Added weight and thumbhole stock.
Gun weighted to 15 lbs so
far. I got 600gr hard slug to
1650-1700 so far, and shoots easy.
Got 1 1/2 inch thick pad.Working up different
loads.Should get over 2000.
Cases eject easy,no resizing needed
on bottom half of case,action opens easy,
no evidence of binding.Started case 3.2 inch,
settled on case length of 3.15-- Chamber being
full size max 12ga size expands top half of case
more than my minimum chamber in Savage does,
so little more effort needed to size.Our case, though many times stronger than regular
12ga cases is thinner at mouth, so that is
why I used tight chamber on Savage.Still
can't get used to mickey mouse short barrel.
Anyone know of a genius who could
make long alloy barrel with pivot mounted?
Cases can be 3 inches on up to
our length, and work.Ed.


July 1, 2006, 01:40 AM
We got 600 gr slug to 2000 fps in NEF.Used ball
powder load. Case length of maximum 3.07 works.
Anyone using our style case should also put in adapter
for shotgun primer. Save a lot of work
beefing up hammer speed and strength.Ed

July 5, 2006, 08:47 AM
The Savage perking right along. Used a little faster
ball powder and got 600gr hard slug out to 3000 fps.
That is 12,000 ft lbs. Moving right along.
Got more hard slugs coming and I think 14,000 ft lbs

July 5, 2006, 03:25 PM
I dont' recall if i posted before, but i've got to say what you're doing is totally awesome and also totally crazy. i love it! I'm sending an email regarding your offer of a shell sample.


July 5, 2006, 05:06 PM
I followed a link to this thread from SurvivalBlog.com and read the whole string and WOW! This is some great stuff!

I am also going to send along a request for a shell sample and Thank You for doing this - wildcatting a 12 guage is a great idea!


July 5, 2006, 05:21 PM
I posted the link.

www.survivalblog.com (http://www.survivalblog.com)

Good debate and info on SHTF issues.

July 6, 2006, 12:34 AM
Holy Crap.

July 6, 2006, 10:55 AM

July 6, 2006, 11:24 AM
Ed - check your PMs. :)

July 7, 2006, 10:25 PM
For you fellows down under, Scott Wardle is having a bunch of rims and cases with 12ga rims made and will make them
for others in need.Ed.

July 10, 2006, 12:58 AM
In a little while I will have a bunch
12ga rim pieces to supply those who can take them and
thread the case themselves.Most lathe guys can
turn off rims and put on 5/8 by 24 thread.The rim
pieces are precision done on cnc equipment, so if case
has threads they go right on and loctite makes them

July 13, 2006, 12:24 AM
Being some guns need to much work
to fire bmg primers, it easier to
do the following with adapter bushings.
Here is picture of cases for primer
comparisons.1st is regular bmg
primer. 2nd is adapted to a shotgun primer.
3rd is adapted to large rifle primer.
Of the 2 adaptations, large rifle is
easier to do, just ream out pocket, thread in adapter, but adapting shotgun primer
you have to deepen the original primer
pocket a little, then thread and screw in
a bushing.These two primers give about
100 fps less than bmg primer.Ed.


July 14, 2006, 11:06 PM
Anyone wanting to get into 12ga bigbore NEF shooting;
Nef 12ga Ultra slug gun at gunshop $225.Add weight to
butt and forearm. Get a thicker pad.
Get a box of 10 brass cases from Rocky Mtn Cartridge
for 60 bucks. These cases use shotgun primers, have thick
base like our case, have thick sides to fit chambers
right, No chamber work needed, use as is.
As you fire these cases they work harden, and can go faster.
600gr at 1750 fps possible,aat first.. that's 4000 ft lbs.Ed

July 15, 2006, 05:49 PM


July 16, 2006, 09:26 PM
Savage with long case- 600gr hardened slug at 3250,
no leading.Cases needing a little resizing on the bottom,
but still extract ok.Lesser loads haven't needed sizing
on bottom half.Getting up to around 40k pressures.Ed

July 20, 2006, 01:17 AM
Developing loads with short version in the NEF.
So far using RL-25 got 1700 fps with 600 gr slug.
and cases extract easy. Which is quite good
cosidering it is a gun without bolt action extracting
capabilities.Abnd test are in the real hot
weather we have here.Working good.Ed

July 22, 2006, 08:37 PM
Testing RL-25 in Savage, with long case--Got 730 gr
hardened cast slug to 2400 plus with 300 gr RL-25.
Full load. Bottom of cases don't need sizing.Ed

July 24, 2006, 10:01 PM
Testing Savage with long case-Got 2550 with
320gr WC-855H special ball.730 gr slug.
Same slug,
300gr of RL-25 got 2400. 300 gr of RL-22
got 2800. 280 gr of W-760 ball got 2900.
Will hold more 760, but pressures around 40k on last
two loads mentioned.Savage extracts easy,
bellers like a tank gun.Ed

July 29, 2006, 12:24 AM
Been asked about 3 inch versions of our case. I don't have
any to spare. Just the few I am testing NEF with.
But box of ten is only $60 plus shipping from
Rocky Mtn Cartridge, with thick bases and set up for
3 inch chambers.Ed

July 29, 2006, 04:59 PM
Early on in this thread, you said that you made your cases out of .50BMG cases. How did you go about doing this?

July 29, 2006, 05:21 PM
We took rim on bmg cases down to bottom of extractor groove,
leaving a stub that we threaded 5/8 x 24. Then we screwed
on a 12ga size premade brass rim.In following picture
you see case threaded and rims ready to go.Use
loctite.In a while I will have a bunch of rims
for for those wanting to make cases.The we fireform case
in chamber to strighten it out.Ed


July 31, 2006, 06:06 PM
Shot NEF with the RL-25 load, 600 gr.Got 3
shots in 4 inches at 50 yds, with aperture sights and my bad eyes.Got barrel extension
made and will get it on in next couple weeks.
NEF and Original Sav barrel have same twist and grooves, so I am putting heavy part of
left over barrel to good use.I hate shorty barrels.Ed

the naked prophet
July 31, 2006, 06:25 PM
If, for some ridiculous reason, you wanted to pay the tax man your $200 and get a suppressor for this beast... and then you wanted to shoot subsonic slugs out of it... but didn't just want to slow it down...

What is the heaviest slug could you send downrange at 1000 fps?

July 31, 2006, 07:02 PM
In the NEF 12-1400 gr, in the long case in Savage
20-2500 gr.But lighter slugs with supressor may be so much easier
recoilwise that the 200 bucks is a bargain.Ed.

August 3, 2006, 10:30 AM
We are having a group buy of 1000 gr soft jacketed
bullets for 12ga from Hawk. $2.10 each.Contact
me for details.Need order of 1000 total for them to
make dies and start.Let me know if interested.Ed.

August 4, 2006, 10:33 AM
We are getting a replica 1887 12ga lever gun to
test our cases in.It is forged modern steel and handles higher
pressures compared to originals.Ed

August 4, 2006, 11:14 AM
We are getting a replica 1887 12ga lever gun to
test our cases in.

:what: :what:

Is the receiver long enough?

August 4, 2006, 01:09 PM
Mike- We will have to shorten our cases to use the magazine and
cartridge lifter.But myself and others wanted to know how hot we can load our cases shortened in it. One guy in AUS wants to use hairy loads in one to hunt where they are only allowed shotguns,
for buffalo.And other shotgun only hunters have heard of the high pressure testing gun went through for 43,000 psi in
12 ga case, and they figure it is a way to get 700NE power
at a good price, with legal hunting arm for shotgun only.
If I have one for me in the long run I will heavy barrel
it, put on huge buttstock and pad and use as
a lever operated single shot with full length case.. Ed

August 4, 2006, 01:42 PM
Is there a good magnum bolt gun that will work?:evil:

August 5, 2006, 03:30 AM
Mike-- Well my Savage at the reasonable price, I guess.
And bmg size actions costing much more. Bolt size is the
problem, being able to fit 12ga rim size.
Now I havw other wildcat, the 700 HE with same big case only
belted allowing smaller rim, that I have to test that allows
use of an action like the Montana Rifle Co PH model, if we can get them to increase barrel thread size to match the inrease
in action size they did. Ferlach makes fancy ones that
handle 700NE with same size rim as 12ga, so it would work, but costs as much as 3 new cars.Ed

August 8, 2006, 09:58 AM
We are getting a big ole replica 12ga 1887 levergun
to test our cases in.It is forged reciever, modern steel, heatreated for high pressures.Ed.

August 8, 2006, 11:00 PM
HOLY CRAP!!!!!:what: :what: :what:

August 9, 2006, 11:01 PM
This project is truly a big fun thing.
We will test levergun with shortened cases,
to match factory chambers,first,
as some guys want to know what it will do when used as
repeater.The ballistics will be better than NEF or Encore
in short cases, as action is supposed to be stronger.Ed.

August 12, 2006, 12:49 AM
Got the new hollowbase 600 gr Dixie hardened slugs, for
smoothbores. Nef likes then. Got 2000 fps with 215 gr
ball powder. Will test a little faster
powder to and I think it will get to 2200.
The would be over 6000 ft lbs
from a NEF 12ga. Ed.

August 13, 2006, 11:06 PM
We got recoil now-Got a 1050 gr
Bridger over 2200 fps in the Savage.
I took the hollow base 750 gr Bridgers
made for me, and wedged in .500 caliber
slugs(I took out of 12ga sabot)in the base.
Added 300 gr. I was going to melt lead and put in,
but this was easier about 5 seconds,
after 15 seconds shortening nose on grinder
of .500 slug.Ed

August 24, 2006, 12:11 PM
Hairy is the word.Mines pussycat in comparison.
Rob shot a few 1000 grain Bridgers at 3250 fps
and he said he couldn't go any higher as recoil
was "severe". His Borchardt is 24 lbs, and can take
any pressure you could load for it and still
hang on. Cartridges of this size really gets
the juices flowing at over 23,000 ft lbs..Ed

August 30, 2006, 01:33 AM
Doing more research at someones suggestion on the
Saiga-12 shotgun. It has strong rotary bolt, and alloy
barrel. Has 3 inch chamber and shortened version of our
case should allow velocities like I get with NEF or
better. Loading brass cases you would have to crimp
slugs good so no sharp corner interferes with

September 3, 2006, 06:11 AM
We got 1887 12ga levergun here to test. Has 2 & 3/4
inch chamber and we will test with our cases cut back and
with Rocky Mtn cases.Here is pic.Neat gun.Ed


September 3, 2006, 10:43 AM
Is a lever gun bolt strong enough to take the pressure? The bolt doesn't lock.

I got to see a thick-walled H&R built on a 10 gauge receiver. Definitely strong enough. I'll eventually see about getting one.

September 3, 2006, 12:51 PM
Mike- This is relica 1887 with forged heat treated reciever.
The rolling block type breech locks in back of reciever
against a two shoulders like back of Greeener breech block.
So the strength it has is strength of sidewalls.
It is as strong as good break action.They tested
it at White labs with shotgun size cartridge to
43,000 psi. Three times normal shotgun powder load and
3 oz shot.Ed

September 3, 2006, 01:02 PM
Excellent info. Thanks.

September 5, 2006, 02:18 AM
Testing levergun. 600gr at over 1600. From a case
shortened to 2.45 inches , matching plastic cases when thet are
crimped. This allows brass case to feed from magazine.
With a long barrel, which is in the works, it
would get couple hundred ft more.Ed

Don't Tread On Me
September 5, 2006, 02:23 AM
What is the point of a cartridge like that? Just go .50BMG and be done with it.

September 5, 2006, 07:51 AM
What is the point of a cartridge like that? Just go .50BMG and be done with it.

.50s are banned in some locations. Rifles are not legal for hunting in some locations. .50s are much more expensive to build/buy, since these are built on modified actions of existing weapons. And .50s aren't even close to the power some of these loads achieve.

September 5, 2006, 12:17 PM
Yep there are 10 million deer hunters tied to shotgun
only deer hunting areas. And the areas are expanding like here in MI.And with the power of our setup you can extend range
for big game hunting to 150-200 yds but due to blunt
heavy slugs, don't have the long range travel of rifles
with spitzer bullets, to be a danger in built up
populated areas.All around my section there is 30 homes
within long range rifle capabilities
and roads with traffic, two are blacktops, and
a shot elevated up a little from a rifle that misses
target couldn't be guaranteed to not hit something
with people involved.Ed.

September 7, 2006, 12:58 AM
You folks here on THR have put this thread in the
lead as far as views, compared to other forums
where we are posting the progress of the 12GA FH
developement. We really appreciate the interest.
I got guys here looking at the 1887 levergun and they
sure like it,and some plan getting one.Ed

September 7, 2006, 08:09 AM
Ed, please check your email.

September 7, 2006, 08:45 PM
Mike--It got vaporized or something, didn't get to me.Ed

September 12, 2006, 08:45 PM
Shot 12 double ought buckshot in 1887.
That's 624 grains worth. Used short
2.45 inch case that feeds from magazine.
Used fast ball powder, getting about
1500 fps. Further testing on 600 gr
hardened slug got 1700.That is in short
20 in barrel. Comparing this short case
with the 3.07 inch case I use in NEF there
is an inch difference in length of powder
column so it takes faster powder with
10k more pressure in 87 to get same velocities as in NEF. But the 1887 handles it fine.
It takes as much pressure as my Savage
in its present form.Ed

September 15, 2006, 11:58 PM
I got Rocky Mtn turned 12ga cases, and am
developing loads. They are 2 7/8 inches
long are for use in NEF and shortened
in 1887. These cases have shotgun
primers. Now these cases with shotgun primers and the two cases of ours we put small primers in don't fire the slow rifle powder loads
reliably,like cases with bmg primers.
Our testing is with 600 hardened Dixie slugs.
So I have and am testing slow shotgun powder and fast rifle.I tested 5 shotgun powders and
the primers fires then ok but the quick peak pressure when loads increased to get velocity
wanted in NEF caused too much case expansion just ahead of the base.Cases ejected of but
that expansion and resizing will ruin cases
in a couple shots.These cases have a real thick base, and are machined to glass smooth finish.Nice cases.
I now testing AA1680 Ball and it looks good.
Have got loads up to 105 gr with 2 wads in
the Rocky Mtn case, and only .002 expansion
of case ahed of base. Will chrono next and
expect it to get velocity we want in NEF.
Nice thing about this testing is that same loads will work in shortened 87 case by just
using less wad column.Ed

September 19, 2006, 12:43 AM
Testing Rocky Mtn cases in NEF.Got 1850 fps
with 125 gr AA 1680 and 132gr of RE-7.
Cases are 2.9 after 3 firings. AA 1680
load had .135 card wad and 2 1/2 in lubed felt
wads, and RE-7 load had same card and
a 1/2 and a 1/4 lubed wad. Re-7 less dense.
Base expansion ahead of thick base was
.002 to .003 and resized without huge effort.
The base is .300 thick, case has shotgun primers. By the way I put primers in with
bmg primer post. Work good. Now will cut back
some cases for the 87 levergun.About same
loads used in NEF minus wads should do.
Will get little less velocity in 20 in bbl.
But I will have loads figured out for
a bunch of guys here and in Australia.
I also feel now that have I found loads that
get velocity without a huge expansion, to
the turned cases that good low base plastic
will do the same velocity, in strong alloy
barreled guns. Ed

September 20, 2006, 11:44 PM
Good news-First tested 87 levergun with
Rocky Mtn and plastic cases.
Using Rocky Mtn cases cut back.Cut case
back to length that feeds from magazine,
2.45 in. That is about max length of any
loaded and crimped 2.75 case.Got 600gr to 1700
with 20 in barrel.120 gr of RE-7.No squib loads.
Cases eject good, expanded a little
ahead of base .003, resize ok.Now the second
good news. Seeing as how these non traditional
powders used in shotgun didn't expand the
turned cases a lot( in our cases made from
bmg brass it took over 10 loads to expand
bases enough to need sizing)............
I figured time to check plastic cases.
Plastic cases took the same load as turned
brass in 1887 and the NEF.120 gr RE-7 in
1887(It wouldn't hold anymore without
a lot of compression) and
140 gr in NEF. Tested Fed,Win,Rem,highbase,
and low base. So you guys out there
who want to get the power that NEF and
1887 are able to deliver use good plastic
cases as a way to get started with
600 gr slugs.You don't need heatreated
for those speeds just hard cast
from wheel wts.. Win AA 2 & 3/4 best for 1887.
It is lowbase and easiest to resize.
To get potential(extra 200 fps) it needs a long barrel.They made long barrels in original.
I used federal 3 inch case in Nef.By the way modern plastic cases have steel bases with
copper plating so they are strong. I tried
one of the fast shotgun powders, that
previously expanded the brass
turned case to much, in plastic cases in
NEF and at 50 gr case was sticking
and had expanded quite a bit, but same
case with 140gr RE-7 popped out easy,
and resized easy.Ed

September 23, 2006, 11:52 PM
In testing plastic cases in NEF and 87 I get
good case life with RE-7 loads. In 87 a Rem case
fired 5 times and it looks good. In NEf a Federal case
fired 6 times and looks good. Of course you can fire them
once or twice and throw away at 3-5 cents each.
I got long heavy barrel ordered for 87 levergun,
and then we will be able to put zip to the slugs.Ed

September 27, 2006, 02:20 AM
I put spitzer point on a Dixie 600
heat treated slug,
and got weight down to 500 gr.
It got 3800 fps in Savage, 16,000 ft lbs.
Used 350 gr of fast ball powder blend.
And barrel is still mirror clean- the faster
I shoot them the cleaner the barrel.
That new thin lube and heatreating
is doing the job.Ed

September 27, 2006, 08:00 AM
Awesome. I'm going to eventually get one of the heavy barreled NEFs. How far can that go?

September 27, 2006, 11:16 AM
I put spitzer point on a Dixie 600
heat treated slug,
and got weight down to 500 gr.
It got 3800 fps in Savage, 16,000 ft lbs


Now that's alot of energy

September 27, 2006, 11:42 PM
The NEf gets about 2200 with 600 gr using our case.
About 1900 using turned case or plastic case.Getting
4800 ft lbs with plastic is the real feat I think.Ed

September 27, 2006, 11:47 PM
Is that FPS or ft/lbs?

September 28, 2006, 11:28 AM
Nef-2200 fps our case - 1900 fps turned or plastic case.
the 1900 fps in plastic is 4800 ft/lbs energy.
I also saved lot a time loading plastic by not doing a
roll crimp which is a pain with once fired star crimped cases.
Just remove crimped part, load it, hold slug in and
use glue gun. slug stays tight and slug along with card wad
lets powder build to good pressure with no
squib loads.Ed.

September 28, 2006, 11:49 AM
Even with the superheavy barrel on the 10ga frame? It seemed very robust when I handled it.

September 28, 2006, 02:48 PM
Yes it strong and if you get 2-3 more lbs in the butt,
recoil with a 4800 ft lb load is
tamed pretty good.Ed.

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