fighting 1911?


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crofrog
January 24, 2006, 01:11 AM
What's a good "fighting" 1911. I don't want a many 1000 dollar safe queen. I want a gun that when properly maintained and fed with good magizine's and decent ammo. Will never skip a beat.

I want one that could goto war if I wanted it too. No overly tight barrel bushing's or FLGR's that require tools to disasemble.

Just need's to be "good enough" in the accuracy department.

I'd prefer to be able to get it new in box and it needs to be less than 1k (or ever close to it if over)

Interested in opinions specially 1911tuner from reading his post I think he completly understand's what I'm asking about here.

Thanks for the help I'm sorta new to 1911's in fact I don't even own one yet.

Chris

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AFhack
January 24, 2006, 01:51 AM
Personally, I'd go with either a Springfield Milspec model or a Colt 1991, but there are a LOT of good options available. Kimber, Springfield, RIA, Para, S&W, all make models that fit your bill.

Remember - it only takes one person to report a reliabilty problem with his/her newest aquisition (whatever the make/model)....


While most folks with no problems whatsoever won't post a peep :)

StrikeEagle
January 24, 2006, 02:20 AM
Colt new manufacture 1970.

My opinion. :)

Black Majik
January 24, 2006, 02:40 AM
Colt Government

Kimber Custom Classic

Springfield Loaded / Milspec

S&W 1911PD / 1911Sc

What do you really want in a 1911? Combat accurate, reliable, durable.... anything regarding what it'll be used for? The range? Do you want combat sights, fixed sights, nightsights, or target sights?

Does slide to frame fit matter? Is this for combat use?

What size do you want? I noticed you wanted no FLGR, the SA and Kimber come with FLGR's, but you can easily swap em' out for GI rod and plug.



Oh yeah, who said $1000+ 1911's have to be safe queens? :evil:

Gunsnrovers
January 24, 2006, 02:45 AM
For $1295, this is one of my favorites.

http://www.yostbonitz.com/packages/1asterisk/

Instead of one of thers, I had mine built on an older Milspec I had had for a long time and deviated a little from the build sheet so mine wears the Yost "Y" instead of a 1*.

crofrog
January 24, 2006, 03:02 AM
Colt Government
What do you really want in a 1911? Combat accurate, reliable, durable.... anything regarding what it'll be used for? The range? Do you want combat sights, fixed sights, nightsights, or target sights?

Well up to now I've always wanted a 1911 I dunno why just something about it...

BUT all of my guns are tools, and will be treated like it. I'll take care of them like I maintain my tools but they need to take a licking and keep on ticking.

I can throw my glock over my shoulder or toss it down a flight of stairs, and not worry about it discharging or not working when I go to pick it up. If I drop it in a mud puddle and take it out and shake it off it will go bang.

Until I have faith in the platform it will be used for the range after that who knows.

As for sight's I'd like it have combat sight's or night sights. If I can't find them with good sight's in my price range as long as I can change them it's fine.

If all these GI's took these guns to war and beat the ???? out of them I just want one that can take a licking and keep ticking.

As for accuracy with my bone stock G19 I can get an 15x20 steel plate reliably @100yd. I'd like to have the 1911 that can do the same. If it can't do that with out sacrificing reliablity. I value reliablity more.

Here are my prioritys.

1. Reliablity
2. Cost (if it's more than say 1300 at the absolute highest it's out I'd prefer to not spend more than 1000)
3. Accuracy (see the requirement above)
4. Other features (beaver tail, wide saftey/safties,commander style hammer, long trigger)

I'd like the idea of a beaver tail and wider saftey's as I shoot high thumbs this is _not_ a requirement though and as you can tell it's the lowest priority. I assume as I gain famairality with the platform I can add them or have them added as I see needed.

Thanks for the help so far.

Chris

deezulsmoke
January 24, 2006, 03:18 AM
There is a hole in the 1911 market right in the price range that you are in. You can spend $500-$900 real easy, and then you have to get near $1500-$2000. One of my favorites in that price range is either the Springfield MC Operator if you want a rail gun, or the TRP. If you get to be a real 1911 bigot, then you will start replacing some of the MIM parts in the Springfield. Take a look at some of the Les Baer Concept pistols, the STI Lawman, or perhaps the Rock River. Then there is the Ed Brown gang, but they are pricey. Really for $500-$900, the Springfields are hard to beat for traditional 1911s and they are easily upgradable. I am hearing very good things about the new S&Ws, but they are not a choice for me as I don't like a 1911 with an external extractor. Please note that nowhere nohow do I recommend the Para Ordnance or Kimber.

Deez.

Black Majik
January 24, 2006, 03:27 AM
Well... I think for $1000 and/or a little higher, you can have a few guns that will be a great choice.

There are the firearms that I've listed, although check into Kimber to see if you'd like to invest your money into a Kimber. Of course, imo dont spend over $1000 for a Kimber. Others may disagree, but I dont find the value in a MIM filled Kimber in the $1000+ range. There are better options out there.

For combat sights, there are two options. There are the fixed sights such as the Novak ski jump type sights and the Heine style sights. There are also the combat sights that was used in the GI style 1911s, such as the sights that come with the Colt Government, SA Milspec and SA GI model.

Do you prefer a GI type gun with GI sights, short thumb safety and no frills? Or do you want a gun that comes with Novaks sights, ext thumb safeties, beavertail grip safeties...?

There are value to some of those bells and whistles. I love 1911, and I have 1911s of both variants.

You'll honestly have to find what "mods/options" you'll require for your personal needs.

For example, for myself I require my 1911s to have:

1) dehorned
2) beavertail
3) Good quality sights
4) ext thumb safety
5) Front strap checkering
6) Good slide to frame fit. Not too tight but not a rattletrap. This is strictly preference of course.

Of course, reliability, durability, and quality is a given. There are some bells and whistles I can do without, such as nightsights, ext. magwell, skeleton hammer, skeleton trigger, FLGR's, serrated top of the slide, french borders etc...

Maybe for right now a good working stock GI gun out of the box that is reliable would be a great start. Check with www.1911forum.com for a LOT of information. I post on there too.

I started with a Colt Government, and I'm glad I did. It really made me appreciate the modifications/options that I require on a 1911 because I found out for myself what I wanted on a 1911 instead of what was piled on when I bought it. I've figured out what I like, and thats what matters most to me.

For a GI style gun, I'd go for a Colt Government. If you're worried about the gun firing when dropped, get a Series 80.

For a bells and whistles gun, Go for the Springfield TRP or a slightly used Les Baer Thunder Ranch (although the Les Baers are the tightest guns available, they are made with the best quality parts. Its worth it and VERY VERY accurate). A basic Kimber Custom II is a good starting pistol into the 1911 world, and I've been very pleased with the Kimber's accuracy potential.

Also, most production 1911s have great accuracy. Even the milspec SA and Colt Government. I'd honestly think that they have the potential to outshoot a Glock 21, but in my hands I suck at shooting Glocks anyways :D

Best thing to do is to stop by the shop, handle EVERYTHING and ANYTHING that catches your eye. Do your research and figure out what means the most to you in a 1911. The options are almost endless, so research well.

If you have any more questions feel free to PM me. 1911Tuner is the resident 1911 junkie on this forum. He's very knowledgeable when it comes to the 1911 platform.

Good luck and happy shopping! :D

IndianaDean
January 24, 2006, 03:29 AM
I like my SW1911PD Commander so much I also got the full size PD, then this last weekend the stainless model. One of the best 1911s made. Mine have been reliable right out of the box.

palerider1
January 24, 2006, 04:03 AM
check out the colt xse. i bought one for 1000 bucks in stainless. i got a model 01070 with a 5 inch bbl. you can get them on the internet for 800-1000 bucks. i have over 500 trouble free rounds through it. if i were to go into battle i'd want a colt. they have been time tested. heres a link where you can get them on the net. http://www.coltclearinghouse.com/colt_xse_series_pistols.htm

Ala Dan
January 24, 2006, 04:10 AM
Two that come to mind quickly are Kimber's Warrior, and Springfield's MC
Operator.

Rob1035
January 24, 2006, 10:21 AM
I'm sure he'll chime in, but 1911Tuner does a bang up job of convincing me (and probably others) that a vintage, "real" 1911 is the way to go for both reliability and accuracy.

1911 guy
January 24, 2006, 11:52 AM
You can go to your dealer and order a pistol that has:

beveled mag well
beavertail grip safety
commander style hammer
internal extractor
snag free sights
accurate
reliable
no proprietary parts. All GI spec
made by a manufacturer mentioned, but under a different name.

The answer: Charles Daly. They're made by Armscor, who also makes Rock Island Armory, but come with all the bells and whistles the "big names" want 1200-1500 for. You will get some extra fluff and puff with a higher priced pistol, but a defensive handgun is just that, not a Picasso.

1911Tuner
January 24, 2006, 12:07 PM
I'm sure he'll chime in, but 1911Tuner does a bang up job of convincing me (and probably others) that a vintage, "real" 1911 is the way to go for both reliability and accuracy.

Bingo. Although I wouldn't advise hard range use with a collectible USGI pistol, there are a lot of mismatched pistols around that can be had...but ya gotta know what to look out for. Lotta basket cases too.

Look for a decent Norinco. A few have barrel fit issues, but even paying for a new one and a gunsmith to install it will keep you in the 500-600 dollar range. Most owners report thousands of rounds through theirs without fail...
and more than accurate enough to defend life and limb with.

Old Fuff
January 24, 2006, 12:17 PM
I started buying 1911 pattern pistols during the late 1940's and stopped during the latter 1980's and thereafter assembled my own. The reason was that quality was obviously starting to go downhill, and I couldn't see any reason to stake my neck on second best.

If you follow this or other forums that deal with this style of pistol you may notice that the complaints usually concern the guns of recent manufacture. Very seldom do you see someone having problems with a pre-1970's gun. That's because they were made entirely out of heat-treated high-carbon steel, and the principal parts (frame, slide, barrel, etc.) were made from forgings. The smaller parts and magazines weren't outsourced and bought from the lowest bidder, and they were made in a factory that had floor and final inspectors.

If I was in your shoes I'd do what I did many years ago. Find a finish-worn but otherwise in good shape Colt Government Model made between 1946 and before 1970. One that's discounted because someone mounted Micro target sights would be good too. Then modify the slide to add low-profile/high visibility sights and perhaps have the trigger pull adjusted to a crisp 5 pounds, and not lighter. When finished, be sure the sights are zeroed, and them maybe have it refinished - although this isn't necessary.

Then stop! Go shoot it, and enjoy it. Let the gamers go play with their gadgets.

This has worked for me, and for over a half century. You can't ask for much more then that.

vanfunk
January 24, 2006, 02:33 PM
My favorite Fightin' 1911is my '43 Remington-Rand, configured just as it appeared in WWII. That pistol has, easily, 130,000 rounds through it (from me and it's two previous owners) and has needed only so much as a new firing pin to keep going. I have yet to get in a fight with it (thank goodness:) ) but I'm confident that it would see me through if the balloon goes up. I can hit a coffee can 7 outta 7 at 25 yards with the ol' girl.

I like stock 1911's:)

vanfunk

Black Majik
January 24, 2006, 04:49 PM
You can go to your dealer and order a pistol that has:

beveled mag well
beavertail grip safety
commander style hammer
internal extractor
snag free sights
accurate
reliable
no proprietary parts. All GI spec
made by a manufacturer mentioned, but under a different name.

The answer: Charles Daly. They're made by Armscor, who also makes Rock Island Armory, but come with all the bells and whistles the "big names" want 1200-1500 for. You will get some extra fluff and puff with a higher priced pistol, but a defensive handgun is just that, not a Picasso.

ACk!

Sorry bud, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you there for a "fighting 1911". When it comes to quality parts and durability, I want a 1911 that has forged slide and frames.

Lowest priced 1911 I'd go for with still good quality would be a Springfield GI. I actually think they're great bang for the buck.

1911 guy
January 25, 2006, 11:52 AM
Mine has several thousand rounds down it and needs nothing but occasional spring replacement. While my Springer mil-spec does have better fit and finish, the CD is my daily carry gun. Are there "better" pistols out there? Yes. But that doesn't negate the fact that the inexpensive pistols will do what they need to do if properly made and maintained.

Gunsnrovers
January 25, 2006, 12:18 PM
Wasn't it the CD/Armscor pistols that didn't accept drop in GI parts, unlike the Norinco, due to slightly different build specs?

Just seem to recall some discussion about this in the past. I know the very soft steel came up.

ruger357
January 25, 2006, 12:23 PM
Colt NRM or SW1911.

osteodoc08
January 25, 2006, 02:27 PM
If you want a basic pistol go with a S/A Mil-spec pistol. It can be had in blued and stainless if you desire. One of the best no frills models out there.

Right now I'm personally debating between the Kimber Tac Pro II since it has all the extras I want or a S/A Champion that is a little less with a little less of the extras.

osteodoc08
January 25, 2006, 02:29 PM
ACk!

Sorry bud, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you there for a "fighting 1911". When it comes to quality parts and durability, I want a 1911 that has forged slide and frames.

Lowest priced 1911 I'd go for with still good quality would be a Springfield GI. I actually think they're great bang for the buck.

I've been pretty happy with my RIA Compact I bought about a year ago. Now I want something with a little more refinement.

Billy Sparks
January 25, 2006, 02:40 PM
I bought a brand new Series 80 blued Colt Commander from someone that shall go nameless in Alaska. I have to go to a meeting tonight, what do you think will be riding in a Milt Sparks holster? That's right a nice 1991 Colt Commander.

Black Majik
January 25, 2006, 03:16 PM
Mine has several thousand rounds down it and needs nothing but occasional spring replacement. While my Springer mil-spec does have better fit and finish, the CD is my daily carry gun. Are there "better" pistols out there? Yes. But that doesn't negate the fact that the inexpensive pistols will do what they need to do if properly made and maintained.

I apologize for sounding rude in my post. My opinion however does still stand. For a range gun I think a RIA would be a great firearm to use. When it comes to a lifelong durable gun, I'd just rather have a gun that has a forged slide and frame.

Now of course, this gun would suit well for the occassional shooter who will end up only shooting a few hundred rounds through it every year. But if the gun is gonna be used heavily, I just feel that the minimum start I would feel comfortable would be the SA GI.

Hey, I'll admit, I've even considered a RIA Government for an occassional plinker. :)

crofrog
January 25, 2006, 04:11 PM
Now of course, this gun would suit well for the occassional shooter who will end up only shooting a few hundred rounds through it every year. But if the gun is gonna be used heavily, I just feel that the minimum start I would feel comfortable would be the SA GI.


this gun will only see a few hundred rounds...



... a week :D

horge
January 25, 2006, 11:28 PM
Wasn't it the CD/Armscor pistols that didn't accept drop in GI parts, unlike the Norinco, due to slightly different build specs?

No, you're thinking Llama, perhaps.
The Armscor guns take drop-ins just as well as other "mil-spec" brands.

Just seem to recall some discussion about this in the past. I know the very soft steel came up.

It isn't as hard as older-batch Norinco's steel, but I wouldn't call it soft.
All this talk about forgings vs. castings is misleading anyway, as the
quality of the heat treatment (post) is a bigger factor.

Norinco GI's cost about US $290 over here, are widely distributed, and sell well enough, but are prone to requiring smithing to make reliable: very rough-finished, sometimes crooked internals. Armscors also retail for about US$290, but outsell Norincos almost 4 to 1 and generally work right out of the box.
Long view, I'd probably get a Norinco and drop serious dime on having it smithed. But for an everyday tool, I'd get an Armscor and leave it stock.


horge

1911 guy
January 26, 2006, 10:17 AM
The pistols will accept any GI part, but like any 1911, there's no such thing as "drop-in". I'm not sure about older pistols, more than five or six years, but all newer ones interchange.

1911Tuner
January 26, 2006, 10:24 AM
Did somebody say...Rand?:cool:

shooter.45
February 7, 2006, 08:52 PM
Kimber Warrior no external extractor Series I great gun so far the one I have is great the finish is holding up very well. And its a great shooter. Worth every penny. :D

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