Types 9mm? Locked Breach, Delayed Recoil, etc and effect on felt recoil?


PDA






wbond
January 24, 2006, 04:42 AM
I'm recoil sensitive and looking for low recoil 9mm Para options.

Types of 9mm Parabellum autos? Locked Breach, Delayed Blowback, etc and their effects on felt recoil?

=====================================================

One of the senior members who is an NRA instructor recommended I try some 9mm Para pistols to see what I think of the recoil. i.e. -try the 9mm Para as opposed to the 9x18 CZ-83 blowback I have.

It was very nice of him (and others) to offer advice. Unfortunately, I lost his private message to me. So I can't get back to him on that because I don't remember his handle.

======================================================

So let me post the following questions to everyone:

1) Which type reduces perceived recoil more? Locked breach or delayed recoil? i.e. - which will spread it over the longest possible time?

2) What brands-models of 9mm Para (weighing at least 25+ ounces) should I try for the least possible recoil spread over the longest possible time? Also, I'd like to keep barrel rise-flip to a minimum.

In revolvers and blowback autos, I'm already fond of two guns weighing approx 28 ounces (CZ-83 in .380, and somewhat fond of CZ-83 in 9x18; and SP101 in .32M 3" barrel). Based on this, I know I like handguns that weigh around 28 ounces unloaded (give or take a few ounces).

For gun dimensions, I'd prefer to not go larger than CZ-83 or SP101 .32M 3", if possible.

I prefer, but don't require, DA or DA/SA autos with decocker safety. Ideally, a downward sweep safety since arthritis make an upward sweep difficult.

I need to keep recoil at or below a CZ-83 9x18. I don't know if this is possible in 9mm Para. Maybe I'm asking the impossible? The NRA instructor (whose High Road private message I lost) seemed to think it was possible. He's the one who first got me thinking along these lines. I like my CZ-83, but maybe I can do better with 9mm Para?

If you enjoyed reading about "Types 9mm? Locked Breach, Delayed Recoil, etc and effect on felt recoil?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
WillBrayJr
January 24, 2006, 09:40 AM
The right grips on a handgun will soak up a god amount of recoil. You would be better getting a large frame auto like the Beretta or Taurus 92. Medium size autos like the Springfield XD-9 with a grip sleeve or the ported XD-9

ABBOBERG
January 24, 2006, 01:33 PM
In the process of developing a new handgun, I have tried both a locked-breach and a gas-delay system and compared the "recoil" by filming the shots with a high-speed camera. I have found that with the same size gun, same ammo, same slide mass (all things being equal) there seems to be no difference in perceived recoil; and muzzle flip is virtually identical in gas-delay versus locked breach.
In fact, the recoil and slide velocity and acceleration is much more consistent with the locked-breach design. Typical slide acceleration of a locked-breach gun is about 1600-2400 g's. With gas delay, slide velocity and acceleration can be really slow or extremely fast, depending on how fast the powder burns. I have measured gas-delay slide acceleration to be over 4000 g's.

Some have said the the HK P7 has low felt recoil due its use of gas-delay. Well, consider that it shoots 9mm, is solid steel at 30 oz, has a below-average barrel axis, and loses about 8% extra bullet energy due to the chamber grooves.

There is a reason why manufacturers are discontinuing gas-delayed guns - there have no real advantages over locked-breach guns, require more frequent cleaning, can't shoot lead bullets, can heat up with repeated fire and are usually more expensive to manufacture.

WillBrayJr
January 24, 2006, 01:38 PM
A gas system is needed in automags like the Desert Eagle. Without a gas system the Desert Eagle would beat itself to death.

gc70
January 24, 2006, 01:43 PM
To really tame 9mm recoil, get a full-size, all-steel pistol. Some that come to mind are Sig 226 ST (42 oz. - about $800), Star 30M (40 oz. - discontinued but still available new for $300-400) or S&W 5906 (36 oz. - readily available police tradeins for $300).

Based on the weight AND size criteria, I'll guess you may be looking for a carry weapon. That's an entirely different ballgame. The Sig 239 with Hogue rubber finger-grove grips fits the bill nearly perfectly (27.5 oz. and nearly identifcal to specified dimensions). Another one to consider would be the Star M43 (right size and heavier than 30 oz., but single action).

ABBOBERG
January 24, 2006, 01:58 PM
Like gc70 said - there is no replacement for mass when it comes to reducing recoil. As far as the Desert Eagle is concerned - it is "gas operated" rather than "gas delayed". Its operation is similar to gas operated military rifles. It could be argued that if Magnum Research would have designed the Desert Eagle with a Browning-style action, and keep the barrel the same mass as they currently are using (which is very heavy), but have it move with the slide, the gun should work fine without beating itself to death.

joev
January 24, 2006, 02:16 PM
I bought the Kahr k9 because i didnt want much recoil. Its an all steel 9mm and I love it. Easy to handle and can be a ccw also.

Jkwas
January 24, 2006, 02:35 PM
The heavy pistol is the way to go. something like a ruger p-series or a taurus pt92, etc. We just go a taurus Pt111, it has a double spring compound guide rod that really soaks up the recoil. Suggest you try it out just for laughs. I find it to be very mild, and in fact it's my wifes favorite.

RyanM
January 24, 2006, 02:51 PM
Hm. Something just occured to me. Since you can't bend your right wrist at all, you will probably need to use a shoulder holster or cross-draw, to be able to draw a longer-barreled, full-sized gun.

In general, locked-breech guns (recoil action) soften the recoil a lot more than any kind of delayed blowback (what I assume you meant by "delayed recoil"). That only changes how sharp the recoil is, however, not the actual impulse of the push, or the muzzle flip.

You said your main problem was muzzle flip, and that will depend almost entirely on the ergonomics of the gun, and the bore axis height. My experience has been that DA revolvers have the best ergonomics for that. Grips which allow for a high grip will change the recoil into a straight-back push.

wbond
January 24, 2006, 03:13 PM
I'm really eating this advice up and intend to rent and try the guns recommended. Thanks a bunch. Keep it coming.

What about those delayed blowback guns that use grooves in the chamber to hold onto the cartridge case until pressure drops? I've heard before that those work well and offer a lower bore access for less muzzle flip, but destroy cases (no reloading). I don't want to reload anyway (no time or space to setup). So I don't care about ruined brass as long as it's not a safety risk.

My prime concerns are safety for my arthritic recoil sensitive hands and safe and reliable gun operation in general. Safety for my hands means not to much recoil or muzzle flip.

Yes, I'm looking for a carry gun. I feel reasonably comfortable with up to 30 ounces to carry. Maybe up to 32 ounces. My Ruger SP101 .32 Mag 3" barrel and my CZ-83 seem ideal at 28 ounces each. However, I've been told more than once that I could do better with a 9mm Para, so I want to explore that.

If it weighs over 32 ounces I would probably enjoy shooting it, but probably wouldn't carry it. I'm being realistic because I know myself. I'd rather sacrifice cartridge power, if necessary, to keep between 27 and 32 ounces. I prefer handguns between 28 and 30 ounces, but I'm trying to be liberal and consider anything from 27 to 32.

It could be that my CZ-83 in 9x18 is the best I can do for a carry gun that I can also shoot well. However, I want to explore the 9mm Para options because very knowledgable people in this forum and at my local gun store suggested I try it.

My local gun store thinks a Beretta 9mm Para would be dandy for me. I don't know which model they meant.

I'm ambidextrous.

I prefer ambidextrous auto handguns with frame mounted, downward safety sweep of decocker safety that are DA or DA/SA. I hope the prior sentence didn't just work your last nerve. I'm just saying that's what I'd like, if I can get it with least recoil and muzzle flip possible. I'm not saying I require all these attributes. I'm just saying it would be a dream come true if available. Suggestions?

The only attributes that are absolutely required are managable, slower recoil with least muzzle flip possible from a 9mm Para weighing 27 to 32 ounces. Might this be possible? If so, I'm all for trying it. If not, I'll stick with my CZ-83s.

Note: I don't need to shoot +P ammo. Regular pressure ammo is fine.

I really do appreciate your advice and suggestions. I'm grateful. I intend to rent and try your suggestion guns. Keep it coming. Thanks.

wbond
January 24, 2006, 03:32 PM
Hm. Something just occured to me. Since you can't bend your right wrist at all, you will probably need to use a shoulder holster or cross-draw, to be able to draw a longer-barreled, full-sized gun..
I intend to use a fanny pack in the front as a low, horizontal cross draw holster. That's easy for me.

In general, locked-breech guns (recoil action) soften the recoil a lot more than any kind of delayed blowback (what I assume you meant by "delayed recoil"). That only changes how sharp the recoil is, however, not the actual impulse of the push, or the muzzle flip.

You said your main problem was muzzle flip, and that will depend almost entirely on the ergonomics of the gun, and the bore axis height. My experience has been that DA revolvers have the best ergonomics for that. Grips which allow for a high grip will change the recoil into a straight-back push.
Yes, I do need to keep muzzle flip down as much as possible. In that regard, I think you have a good point about revolvers. Likewise, a lot (or mabye all?) of blowback autos have a low bore axis.

However, my other problem is the sharpness (speed) of the recoil. It's much easier on me to be pushed rather than punched. Revolvers are punchers, in my experience.

My prior experience with gas operated autos was mostly with shotguns years ago. I used to have both a gas operated shotgun and a pump (both 12 guage). The gas auto pushed me. The pump punched me. I never got bruises from the gas auto. I always bruised from the pump. This was with 100 rounds of trap loads in one day for either gun.

Many years ago, I used to carry and shoot a Glock 23 .40 cal, but that would be WAY TO HARSH now.

I'm looking to keep muzzle flip down since my fused right wrist doesn't bend. I'm also looking to have the recoil occur over a longer time period. i.e. - I prefer to be pushed, not punched. Getting punched is painful to arthritic hands and more likely to loosen the screws that hold my left hand together and is hard on my right thumb.

I'm ambidextrous. I shoot righty two handed for a while, then lefty two handed. The ambi shooting means neither hand takes all the abuse. This is one good reason I like my CZ-83s (.380 and some 9x18 loads) and my Ruger SP101 .32M 3". I find them to be ambi friendly, not to heavy on recoil (but at the top of my limit), and fairly easy to carry. However, I've been told many times by experienced people that I'd be better off with a 9mm Para, so I want to explore that.

Thanks very much Ryan, and everyone else. I'm reading your every word very carefully.

RyanM
January 24, 2006, 04:12 PM
What kinds of ammo were you using in your G23 and the "punchy" revolvers? Ammo used can make a pretty big difference. Light and fast bullets can have a very nasty snap, but usually very little flip. Heavy and slow is the opposite.

This is mostly from the time the bullet spends in the barrel. A faster velocity bullet is in the barrel for a shorter time, which means the velocity is reached more quickly, and the acceleration (snappiness) is greater. But on the other hand, the loads with heavier bullets usually have a greater momentum than light bullet loads, which means a higher final velocity, and more distance traveled by the gun (flip).

Fiddling with recoil spring weights (in either direction) can also have a very large effect. Heavier springs will tame the snap, but may increase muzzle flip, and lighter springs do the opposite.

I think that's due to the difference in slide velocity/acceleration in each direction. The faster the slide moves back, the snappier it is, and the faster the slide moves forward, the more muzzle rise you get. So heavy springs decrease the rearward velocity, but increase the forward, and vice versa. The problem with blowback action autos is that the slide velocity in both directions is usually much higher than with recoil-action autos.

It seems that, as a general rule, the more you decrease snap, the more you increase flip.

Heavy bullets with a reduced recoil spring is probably a good combination. I've found that 180 gr bullets at moderate velocity through a G23 is pretty agreeable. Stock G23s are extremely undersprung (either that or G19s are oversprung, since they both use the same weight recoil spring), so the recoil can be very snappy with 155 and 165 gr loads.

gc70
January 24, 2006, 05:22 PM
Wow, that is a challenging set of criteria.

Another action type to consider is the rotating barrel locking system. The rotation of the barrel is supposed to soak up and redirect some of the recoil motion. The Beretta 800F Cougar L (28 oz.) is an example of a gun with a rotating barrel locking system, as is the older Colt All-American 2000.

Given that the gun would be carried in a fanny pack, you have more flexibility regarding the pistol's shape and size. So... Look at full-size guns. A longer slide simply takes more time to cycle than a shorter slide, spreading out the recoil over a longer period. A longer grip has the advantage of allowing the fingers of the gripping hand to spread out a bit more comfortably. And a wider grip spreads out the recoil over more surface area in the hand. Finally, look for a pistol with a low bore axis.

Reading back through the criteria, you might consider a Glock 17C. The G17C is a couple of ounces lighter than your ideal, but it has a wide, comfortable grip, full-length slide, low bore axis, and the capacity of the polymer frame to flex a bit seems to soak up recoil. More importantly, the "C" version has a compensator, which diverts some recoil energy and mechanically offsets a large portion of muzzle flip.

Crosshair
January 25, 2006, 01:51 AM
In the process of developing a new handgun, I have tried both a locked-breach and a gas-delay system and compared the "recoil" by filming the shots with a high-speed camera.

Can I borrow your camera.:D

Michael Zeleny
January 25, 2006, 06:47 AM
Given your requirements, you need a full-sized, service-pattern, locked breech semiautomatic handgun. Consider the .30 caliber. An ideal handgun for you would be the SIG P210 (http://larvatus.livejournal.com/33732.html) in 7.65x21mm Parabellum. Ballistically, the hotter loadings will approach the muzzle energy of the 9x19mm Parabellum, with a greatly decreased recoil momentum. Unfortunately, its price reflects its quality. Fortunately, other excellent guns such as Benelli B76/B80 (http://www.benelli.it/Storia/Body.asp?Lan=EN&View=Nonsolofucili) can be had in the same caliber for a pittance (http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976560099.htm), even if the ammunition remains rare and costly (http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?p=WX2&i=77390). A lower cost, higher power solution is the 7.62x25mm Tokarev, in its original TT-33 (http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg20-e.htm) platform. The same chambering is available at rock bottom prices in the Czech Vz-52 (http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg58-e.htm) handgun. Given proper bullet placement, the Tokarev round has far greater penetration and nearly as much stopping power as the 9x19mm Parabellum. While I cannot promise that you will find it easier to shoot, you should try it out before committing yourself to the .355 bore solutions.

Riktoven
January 25, 2006, 05:04 PM
You might want to look at the Steyr M series. With a full mag it probably weighs 28-30oz. You can't find a lower bore axis. The trigger doesn't exactly fit your DA, DA/SA criterea, but then I've never seen a FCG even remotely similar to the Steyr. I know it's a lightwieght polymer, but the bore axis really makes the recoil comfy.


Beyond that, the STAR/Bersa Thunder line of pistols would seem a reasonable fit.


Oh yeah, and you can't forget the CZ lineup...surely they have a model that would meet your desires.

wbond
February 6, 2006, 09:09 PM
To Ryan M: I have previously tried faster lighter rounds and slower heavier rounds and yes I experienced what you described. That's why I tend to prefer mid weight, mid velocity rounds for the best compromise. For my Makarov, I am already planing to order a 19 lb spring, which I would call midweight. My CZ-83 9x18 already has what I'd call a medium spring. The Glock .40 cal I sold to a friend. I don't want to shoot a .40 again.

To everyone else, you've given me some good ideas and good guns to check out. I will check them out and try the ones I can locate and rent or borrow.

My current favorite is my Ruger SP101 with 3" barrel in .32 Magnum. I know I said I don't like revolvers, but I like this one. Its 28 oz is heavy for the 85 gr JHP it throws at 1125 fps muzzle. Recoil is NOT sharp. Muzzle climbs a little, but not much due to low bore axis and the climb does not seem to bother me as much because there is no beaver tail.

All that said, I still want to check out 9mm Parabellums and will look into the guns you'all mentioned.

Thanks

wbond
February 20, 2006, 07:25 AM
Browning makes a couple of interesting looking 9mms.

Also saw a Kahr I like the looks of.

Still shopping.

Bart Noir
February 20, 2006, 03:29 PM
There is a reason why manufacturers are discontinuing gas-delayed guns...
Late-breaking news: Wilson has just started to market a gas-delayed one, which is believed to be a re-incarnation of the Heritage Stealth, being a polymer framed pistol. It was shown at the SHOT Show.

Bart Noir

If you enjoyed reading about "Types 9mm? Locked Breach, Delayed Recoil, etc and effect on felt recoil?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!