[Schleprok62]

I just heard from a local gun shop that Remington, along with Winchester is going out of business. Has anyone heard anything of this? I searched Google for anything on it, and I found nothing to remotely confirm this. Is it just a rumor started by the Winchester loyalists to skeer the bejeebies out of us Remington guys????


:what:

[c_yeager]

Gunshops :rolleyes:

[rick_reno]

I bring a shovel with me when visiting gun shops - often shoveling fast is the only way out.

[db_tanker]

Will this be heard before or after they tell the story of how they are helping out with the new ammo testing for the US Military? And the fact that they are also being consulted by two other nations that they aren't allowed to mention for the same?

And WE make fun of women that go to hair salons? lmao:D



D

[trueblue1776]

it makes sense, no one buys 870's or 700's anymore......
:D :D :D

[Geno]

Just a thought...Remington's R&D must be horrid! The 700 and 870 were horrid flops...bet they never sold 2 of the models...same for model 7. Given the absence of any sales, Remington must have poured all of its money to R&D new models and ended up bankrupt. Yeap...poor Remington! :D

Not! I'll believe it when I see it!

Doc2005 :rolleyes:

[ArmedBear]

Remington, for all their faults, is a smart company.

They understand price points and market segments.

They get a LOT of mileage out of their existing designs by assembling them in a wide variety for different users, while building on the reputation of those designs. Hunters are influenced to buy 700s because the military uses them; police departments trust the 870 because of their reputation for taking abuse from duck hunters.

They keep building guns people buy, even if they didn't plan to. The 1100 was slated for replacement 20 years ago, but Remington didn't try to force this on the marketplace.

They tweak their existing firearms products to get LE and military contracts and sales, rather than engaging in expensive gambles like the pursuit of the pot o' gold at the end of the M-16 replacement rainbow.

They bring out new products at a measured pace, and with an eye towards hitting more price points and market segments. But unlike Winchester in 1964, they don't stop making the proven stuff, even if it seems to the bean counters to be redundant. Then if the new product is a dud, they don't have to do a Coca-Cola (or Winchester) reintro of the "Classic" and try to talk people into buying it again.

They make ammunition, but they resist the temptation to use their rifles to push their new ammo ideas. They may even take this too far -- the .260 was really a no-brainer, and they make few rifles chambered in it. But you won't find Remington going under because they only made the CDL in SAUM calibers! They're not that stupid. And they're not that Belgian, either.

[el44vaquero]

What?! McDonald's is going out of business?!!! :neener:

[Legionnaire]

Oh nooooooo ... !! Let's see. I'll need three more 700s, two Model Sevens, and at least two 870s before they go under ... . Guess I better make tracks to the gun shop!

Just raggin. :neener:

No, I've not heard this. (But I wonder if this would serve as the basis for a compelling argument to my wife ...).

[JohnBT]

Posted on Thu, Sep. 08, 2005

Troubles possible for Remington plant in Lonoke

Associated Press

LONOKE, Ark. - North Carolina-based Remington Arms Co.'s chief executive has sent a letter to the company's 1,000 Lonoke employees saying the company's long-term survival could be in jeopardy because of pension plan problems.

"Our company is facing one of its biggest financial challenges of the past 25 years," chief executive Thomas Millner wrote in a copy of the letter obtained by the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette newspaper of Little Rock.

Millner said the pension plan is receiving low interest rates and returns on its investments. He said the company is meeting its legal obligations regarding the plan. The Remington Arms pension plan covers all non-union employees hired before June 1996 and all union employees hired before September 1997.
The rifle and shotgun company's pension plans had assets of $109.6 million at the end of 2004, according to its annual report filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission. By the end of that year the company had accumulated benefit obligations of $138.9 million, which benefit plan experts say indicates a shortfall of at least $29.3 million.

Charles Rink, manager of the Lonoke plant, said he has heard the shortfall could be more than $48 million. Millner said in his letter that the plan's multi-million dollar future liability could be beyond the company's ability to fund from its earnings.

Remington Arms had a net loss of $3.2 million in 2003 and $4 million last year after combined earnings of more than $53 million the three previous years. It's debt has grown from $157 million in 2000 to $203 million last year.

"The funding requirements of the pension plan have the long-term potential of affecting our survival," Rink said. "That's why we're looking at trying to be proactive and examining all alternatives to help protect what our employees have."

The Madison, N.C.-based company employs 2,400 people nationwide.

[BsChoy]

Isn't the 870 the primary LE shotgun in the country?/ I know my dept uses them...and the 700 is the military sniper gun all others are judged against...I love 700's!

[El Tejon]

"Honey, I simply must buy this shotgun and rifle. An American worker depends on me. *patriotic music plays in background* Now, I know you want a new sofa or even more throw pillows with cute, little ducks on the them, but this nation, the United States of America, depends on me to buy these guns. I will not sit idlely by and let you and your lust for furniture and throw pillows endanger my fellow citizens.":evil:

BTW, nothing wrong with the 870 or 700, it's all about margins, then it's about the bling, bling. Maybe Remington should *ahem* diversify its line (how about a line of cowboy guns for the dress up guys? Maybe bring back a real '75 or '90? Very cool).

[trueblue1776]

Isn't the 870 the primary LE shotgun in the country?/ I know my dept uses them...and the 700 is the military sniper gun all others are judged against...I love 700's!

you're thinking of Norinco

:neener:

[Dave R]

IF (big if) Remington goes out of business, it is their karmic punishment for the 710.

Sounds to me like the pension problem is solveable, though. The CEO isjust trying to create some panic to better his negotiating postion. But that's just my humble opinion.

[kentucky_smith]

it makes sense, no one buys 870's or 700's anymore......
:D :D :D


Like no one buys Model 70s, 94s or 1300s?

[ArmedBear]

IF (big if) Remington goes out of business, it is their karmic punishment for the 710.

Sounds to me like the pension problem is solveable, though. The CEO isjust trying to create some panic to better his negotiating postion. But that's just my humble opinion.

They might move a plant to a friendly state. There are a number of states that want businesses in the West. Nevada and Idaho, for example.

That's not the same as going out of business.

Now I do think they should get into the Cowboy Action biz, though. They have the Rolling Block, actually, but it's low-production.

If they made U.S.-built "real Remington" revolvers with top quality production (1858, 1875 and 1890) they could sell them for a lot less than Colt sells the SAA and still make a tidy profit. And how about a SxS reintro?

[go_fish]

Internal business dealings, look at the airlines, auto industry, IBM etc. Every company is looking for a way to improve their financial position by ditching employee benefits. It does not matter if the company is in financial trouble, ie airlines and automotive, or the company is healthy, ie IBM

[kentucky_smith]

Remington's not run that well, look at the 710 and the 597.




Anything new lately?

[pbhome71]

Let's see how long will it take before Remington starts building AR15 pattern rifles... :D

Or, may be they will go a different route from S&W and build AK-47 pattern instead.... ;)

-Pat

[220_Swift]

I see where Remington will now be importing the Zastava rifles, instead of Charles Daly.

Mauser=Remington model 798
Mini-Mauser=Remington model 799
Rimfire rifles=Remington model 5

They will be priced 10% higher than Charles Daly, and Remington will not be importing any handguns from Zastava. Remington will also NOT be selling any actions or barreled actions, at least not right away.

That info was from the Charles Daly newsletter.

[MCgunner]

Well, Remington doesn't do handguns anymore, so they can't get into 1911s.:rolleyes:

What's wrong with the 710? Not arguing anything, just haven't handled one and know nothing about it. It's a price point bargain gun, way I understand it. Remember the 788? That was a junky gun if ever there was, but I don't think I ever fired one that wasn't way more accurate than it had any right to be, all-be-it you had to work around that God awful trigger. :rolleyes: The 788 was Remington's answer to the Savage 340 at the time. I guess they're trying to get something in Savage's price range again with the 710, but the Savage 110 is a danged nice, good shootin' rifle!

[Rupestris]

Maybe DuPont will buy them agan and start cranking out more Nylon 66's!:D

Maybe a Zytel, Corean or Kevlar stocked 700. :p

[dracphelan]

I don't see Remington going completely out of business. What I do see is Remington declaring bankruptcy and dumping their pension plan. They will probably restructure, drop some lines and close a plant or two.
Unfortunately, this will be happening with a lot of older companies. Their pension plans will be undergoing a lot of stress with the increasing number of retirees and the increasing life-span of retirees. This is a reason, many companies switched to 401k plans and overseas production.

[perpster]

Another indication of our declining standard of living in the US.

[jeff-10]

I never would have guessed Remington had 2,400 employees. Most companies will be dumping there pension plans within the next 10 years, right after they raise the retirement age to 70...

No company can go forever with a net loss (except an airline) so Remington will have to do something to fix its financial issues.

[JDyer]

Winchester's Problem - When a customer asked me about a Model 70 or 94, I replied "Which of the 85 or so models are you talking about?" Winchester was all over the board with too many models, with price points entirely too high. Every moddel 70 offered started at least $425, nothing to compete with the Weatherby Vanguard, Howa 1500, Savage, or Rem 700 ADL. As a stocking dealer I have to stock as many models as possible, and I get my best bang for the buck stocking Rem and Marlin.

Remington's Problems:
1. Too many 700 variations (like Winchester 70)
2. Crappy 710, that even won in a raffle is not exciting
3. Crappy Spartan Shotguns
4. Crappy barreled actions from eastern Europe
5. Discontinuance of the ADL replaced by the $70 higher SPS
6. Discontinuance of the Sendero (best Rem rifle made) replaced by the XCR
7. A so called "Scout" or "Guide" rifle (673) in a 22" barrel instead of 18 1/2"
8. Reintroducing the Sendero II for $250 more this fall since the XCR is failing
9. Underfunded Pension plan
10. Lousy customer service

Don't get me wrong, I'm Rem's #1 fan, but if they keep raising their prices 5%to 10% yearly while real wages increase less than 2%, they'll price themselves out of the market. And, it's no secret that Rem is teatering on financial failure.

And, when CZ-USA starts a real marketing campaign they'll eat Rem's lunch

Remington's Advantages
1. Winchester fans will likely buy Remington if they can't afford the Browning and if they don't like spending the same $$ for Ruger, a lesser gun.
2. The 700 action is the most popular action in history (not better, just more popular)
3. Spartan's entry level prices are competative with Charles Daly; they're just crappier guns made by druken Russians.
4. Cheapo buyers can't buy Charles Daly crap rifles anymore since Rem just bought their barreled action supplier and Daly is stuck with thousands of stocks.
5. Rems are American made, like Savage and Marlin, the only two financially healthy companies in the business.

:cuss: Just my opinion! :cuss:

[scubie02]

Remington is the GM of the gun industry

[45crittergitter]

FWIW, Winchester (USRAC) didn't say it was going out of business either; it said it's closing one plant and quitting that plant's products. Other Winchester firearms are made elsewhere.

[Ash]

Savage had trouble when it had too many products. At one time, it was bigger than Winchester or Remington. It faced ruin and restructured and now we have a much smaller, but profitable Savage. The 110 is a flagship that ranks as one of the best bolt actions made (if not so pretty) and is a real money maker.

Among shooters, the current 70 has a decent but not stellar reputation. Among novices, the Remington has a better following (and is better liked by many who know more about rifles). Playing second fiddle to Remington seems to have cost it.

I predict, however, that the Models 70 and 94 will return, just as Schrade knives are back among us. Alas, like Chinese-made Schrades (and Winchester knives, by the way), they will probably be coming in from another country.

Ash

[greg531mi]

Remington's not run that well, look at the 710 and the 597

Those guns are made in their Arkacksaw Plant, that they openned up a few years back. The 870 and the 700's are made in Inon, New York, with machinist with 20-30 years of experience. That is the differance, besides a CEO that wants to cut costs.....and make things as cheap as possible. Thinks he has to compete with China on price????
Wish the Remington employee that is a THR member would tell us the real scoop....

[BusMaster007]

http://www.angelfire.com/ga2/holiday/images/frankpop.gif

[crazed_ss]

What's wrong with 710's?

I've put about 40 rounds through mine just messing around at the range. Is it going to explode or something? I've only tried it out to 100yds, but it seems pretty accurate.

[McCall911]

Remington Arms going out of Business????

No, no! They can't!

1--Ithaca shut down
2--Colt discontinuing DA revolvers
3--Winchester closing

Don't they understand? Remington can't close because bad news comes in threes, not fours!

:uhoh:

[ALS]

Hey I've done my part. I have 3 Remington 700's, 2 .308's, a 3006 and an 870 synthetic 12 gauge. I also have 2 Winchesters a 9422 and a 1200 12 gauge.

[Ifishsum]

Remington's not run that well, look at the 710 and the 597.

Actually, both make in Mayfield, Kentucky IIRC :D

crazed_ss, I own a 710 too. Don't worry, it won't blow up. It isn't the nicest rifle I own, but it works and it's accurate. People don't like them because they don't cost $750.

Come to think of it, I have a couple of 597s as well and don't have any complaints. I must be doing something wrong :confused:

[Ash]

People don't like the 710 because it costs the same as a Savage 110 and isn't near the rifle, and only marginally less than the ADL used to cost, and wasn't near the rifle, and is more expensive than the Stevens, and isn't near the rifle, and is $100 more than the Mossberg 100, and isn't near the rifle. The 710 is a cheap rifle with a much higher profit margin than the 700.

It might work okay, it might be decently accurate, but it isn't the equal of the Winchester 70, the Rem 700, the Savage 110, the Stevens 200, the Mossberg 100, or other bolt rifles that can be had in a similar price range. It won't last long on the market. It can ride on the Remington name for only so long.

I wonder if Zastava is tooling up to produce the 700.

Ash

[Daedalus]

What about that gun manufacturer immunity bill the NRA spent all its 2005 political capital on? I thought it was going to save the industy? Gee I guess it turns out the only thing that would REALLY save the industry is selling products people want to buy. Who would have thought?

[JohnBT]

We're supposed to buy what they think they know how to make.

JT

[scubie02]

all I know is I ordered a CDL, and ended up selling it shortly after receiving it. Juts couldn't justify the price on such a cheap gun. Looks ok from a distance, average accuracy for a rifle (acceptable for a deer gun, no target rifle) but come on--the Black forend tip and pistol grip cap are just the stock dipped in black paint or something, not even plastic for Pete's sake like the BDL's. A floorplate so cheap and thin its not even funny and they don't even bother to spray paint both sides, just the outside. And then you're going to charge that much for it? The model 70 has been cheapened the past few years too, but not as much as many of the Remingtons. And the customer service is legendary fro being bad and taking forever. I'd hate to see them go out, but frankly I'd have expected it way before Winchester. I can't really think of a single Remington I'd want to buy new at this point, sadly. I do have an old model 8 and 870 Wingmaster in my collection, but the new guns? Not so much digging those.

[crazed_ss]

People don't like the 710 because it costs the same as a Savage 110 and isn't near the rifle, and only marginally less than the ADL used to cost, and wasn't near the rifle, and is more expensive than the Stevens, and isn't near the rifle, and is $100 more than the Mossberg 100, and isn't near the rifle. The 710 is a cheap rifle with a much higher profit margin than the 700.

It might work okay, it might be decently accurate, but it isn't the equal of the Winchester 70, the Rem 700, the Savage 110, the Stevens 200, the Mossberg 100, or other bolt rifles that can be had in a similar price range. It won't last long on the market. It can ride on the Remington name for only so long.

I wonder if Zastava is tooling up to produce the 700.

Ash

I see... oh well.. too late now. ;)

[Ash]

If you have a 710, enjoy it. Shoot it. I'm a Mossberg 800/810 guy myself and they are generally poo-poo'd (mostly for the Mossberg name, as they are really good rifles). If the 710 were priced comparitively with the Mossberg 100ATR, which I still consider a better rifle, it wouldn't be getting the negative press. The problem is that it is not a good enough rifle for the price charged. But if they sold it for $250, it would get more interest (though in that price range, the Stevens 200 (pre accutrigger Savage 110) and the Mossberg 100ATR are still better rifles).

Ultimately, the rifle would be an okay rifle if a lesser company put it out. But Remington associating it with the 700, along with the comparitively steep price for what you get, is the real issue. Kinda like Picasso making three or four paint slashes and selling it for $1,000 just because it had his name on it. Pretty cheeky, if you ask me.

Ash

[shell70634]

on the 710. magazine latch broke, whole stock had to be replaced. bad. remington sent new stock promptly. good.

[T.R.]

Someone is pulling your leg. Remington Arms is owned by DuPont, easily one of the largest arms/ammo manufacturing companies in the world.

Felix DuPont amassed great fortunes from the American Civil War and every war since. DuPont even did a lot of business with Nazi Germany until mid 1930's; stopped by Congress.

Right, wrong, or indifferent-these are the facts.
TR

[Rupestris]

Someone is pulling your leg. Remington Arms is owned by DuPont, easily one of the largest arms/ammo manufacturing companies in the world.

Felix DuPont amassed great fortunes from the American Civil War and every war since. DuPont even did a lot of business with Nazi Germany until mid 1930's; stopped by Congress.

Right, wrong, or indifferent-these are the facts.
TR

Sorry T.R.,
Dupont began with a controlling share of Remington. Took full ownership in 1980, then sold the company off in 1993.

Remington is on its own now.

I wish Dupont hadn't sold 'em. I'd be able to get an employee discount :D .

[LockNLoad24]

I have a 710 and there is NOTHING wrong with it.
As for the "guide gun with a 22" Bbl, the 22" will give you better velocity than a 18 1/2" if you want that get a Remington Seven.
As for "too many variations" with all of those variations they are designed to attract a larger/ different group of people.
(Grammaw had to get out the lye soap.)

[kis2]

well, I guess they were wrong since the original post is from 2006 :neener:

[HOOfan_1]

well, I guess they were wrong since the original post is from 2006 :neener:

Since it was at a gunshop, they were probably just saying that to sway him to buy a Remington he wasn't sure he could afford.

I don't know why someone earlier said Rugers are less of a gun though. Ruger is a solid company with solid guns (maybe not the Mini-14/Mini-30 though.

And those spartan 870 Express are some of the best pump guns in the world. I like my Mossberg 500 a little more, but my 870 is still a great gun.

[Art Eatman]

No mas avec le necrothreadia, ferstehen zie?