9mm question


PDA






noresttill
January 24, 2006, 09:40 PM
Ive been reading all the calibre wars between 9's and 45's while looking for the best carry load for my GLOCK 17 (ive narrowed it to between GDHP and Hydroshok) and came across the concensus...

Many people believe the 9mm is a walk away round.
There are many people involved in "illegal" shootouts shot by 9x19's who have been patched up.

I am under the understanding that even a 38 to the heart/head will kill someone dead. Yet many people are living through 9mm shots.

Here is the question: Am I right to assume that perhaps these people who were hit in Non-Class A (instant death) areas, were hit with ball?

"This gang-member was shot 7 times and walked to the hospital"
"There are many prisoners here shot with 9mm, none with .45's"

I have a hard time believing that one 9mm Gold Dot to someones lung at 10 yards would not bring them down intantly.

Am I pretty correct in this observation.

Oh, and I dont care to read about the differences in calibres. I just want to know if there is a rating system between 9mm bullets.

Thanks,
Jesse

If you enjoyed reading about "9mm question" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Deer Hunter
January 24, 2006, 09:52 PM
If you want, get a .45 and buy into all the hype that the 9mm is a sucky round.

Or.

Get a 9mm, don't believe the hype, and learn how to shoot. Honestly, I'm a .45 guy (hotly loaded, mind you), yet I see nothing wrong with a 9mm. They are both great rounds, and everything boils down to shot placement. Sure, it might say that the guy was shot 7 times, but how many of those were in arms/legs?

And if you still don't know what to choose, just get a 10mm and don't turn back.

MadMercS55
January 25, 2006, 01:48 AM
A PD near me issues the Glock 17 with Federal Hydrashok 124grn +p+ ammunition. They've used this for a long time now with very good results from the data I've been privy to.

wolf_from_wv
January 25, 2006, 01:52 AM
And how many where shot with the gun turned sideways or wildly shot versus aimed fire...

carebear
January 25, 2006, 01:52 AM
I believe the number is only 1 in 4 people shot with a handgun end up dying. they really aren't great killers.

Don't get hung up on death or recovery statistics, if the shot attacker stops attacking that's a win.

Chuck Perry
January 25, 2006, 02:10 AM
Whatever caliber you decide on, always remember: anyone worth shooting is worth shooting twice.

Ala Dan
January 25, 2006, 02:20 AM
Some very good info so far, and remember shot placement is what counts.
"A hit with a 9m/m, is by far better than a miss with a .45 ACP". I have
not had too shoot anyone, but I believe that I could put 'em down with
a 9 equally as good as I could with a .45 ACP~!:uhoh: :D

CAnnoneer
January 25, 2006, 02:40 AM
9mm is just fine. In the right place, it will kill ya good.
.45 is just fine. In the right place, it will kill ya good.

Every time I see posters dissing the 9mm, I laugh and think how dead they'd be if hit right by a .22, a .25, or a .32. Heh. :evil:

palerider1
January 25, 2006, 02:41 AM
a 22 to the heart will kill you. get what you feel comfortable with and become a good shot. the accurate shot is what counts the most. you could have a 50 caliber but if you cant hit anything with it then what good is it.

noresttill
January 25, 2006, 02:44 AM
Thanks for the responses.

Dont get me wrong I love that GLOCK 17 (Having a little problem with the sites though:banghead: ), but I was wondering what the deal was.

I can hit center mass and dont mind putting 400 rnds at the range, but I was wondering what the hoopla was with the "underpowered 9". Ill get a 1911 eventually just cause.

Thanks, Ill pick some hydroshock +P+ for carry, when I carry (Feb), thanks.

One more question though,

I practice mostly with WWB (price), is this a bad idea being that Ill be carrying such a hot round?

Sorry about the nieve questions, im pretty new to the sport and I appreciate all your answers

Thanks

Jesse

carebear
January 25, 2006, 02:48 AM
Practicing with the WWB is fine, most of shooting well is consistent mechanics.

Be sure to shoot enough of the hot stuff to be familiar with your carry round. If you shoot it good, stick with it, if dropping a "P" or two improves your time and/or accuracy, don't get so hung up on Real Ultimate Power that you sacrifice the important things for a few more FPS or foot/pounds.

palerider1
January 25, 2006, 02:48 AM
dont get p + ammo, all you need is federal hydroshok 165 grain bullets. the recoil will be less and your aim will be better.

noresttill
January 25, 2006, 01:11 PM
Thanks

Universal
January 25, 2006, 02:40 PM
First off, Federal makes a 165 grain 9mm round? I have never heard of that. With regard to your choice of rounds, if you stick with any of the major ammo companies like Speer, Winchester, Remington and Federal, you should be set when picking a JHP for carry. A few things to consider is that the Speer Gold Dot is a bonded round which the rest are not. This really only becomes an issue with regard to barrier penetration such as car glass. Right off the top of my head I would say that Speer Gold Dots, Remington Golden Sabers, Federal Hydra-Shok and whatever Winchester has decided to call their premium JHPs this year would all be a great choices. I have also read good things lately about the Winchester USA brand.

My main home defense handgun is a GLOCK 17 currently loaded with Speer Gold Dot 124 grain +p. My last duty weapon as a police officer was a GLOCK 19 with 147 grain Gold Dots. Before that I carried a GLOCK 22 .40S&W but prefer the 9mm over the .40.

Anyway, hope any of this helps.

SJG26
January 25, 2006, 03:59 PM
I think this leads to the '9mm doesn't stop em" myth. Lots of gang-on-gang shots are FMJ - they don't "waste" money on better HP's.

Primary of course is shot placement, but it would be interesting to compare the studies and examine the FMJ/HP occurence!

crofrog
January 25, 2006, 04:16 PM
I carry Winchester Ranger SXT 147gr 9mm's. They are accurate function well in my G19. Have good expansion numbers through denim, and pentrate reliably more than 14 inchs.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/ has lot's of good information.

f4t9r
January 25, 2006, 04:33 PM
9mm is just fine. In the right place, it will kill ya good.
.45 is just fine. In the right place, it will kill ya good.

Every time I see posters dissing the 9mm, I laugh and think how dead they'd be if hit right by a .22, a .25, or a .32. Heh. :evil:

should say the 45 "it will kill ya gooder" :D

shane justice
January 25, 2006, 04:42 PM
There seems to be a swing back to 45 caliber in the military...

And I wonder...how much of this is due to combatants wearing gear...protective or otherwise across the chest area...It seems everybody you see...who is geared up...has mag carrers and what not on their chest...

Maybe they were experiencing something in the field..that a guy on the street might not...

MAybe the 45 pack more of a punch...knocks folks down...I don't know....

SOmebody once said...Use as much gun as you can shoot well....

Somebody on another forum was comparing their Black Hawk with a Makarov...weird huh...but at 20 yards...he was done right deadly with the Mak...but could not hit with the Hawk as well...

I told him...stick with what you can hit with...

If you can alway hit with a 9MM..then roll on...if you can hit with a 454...you go boy!

Most never shoot enough to get intimate with their guns...so they blame accuracy...on the gun....and sell or trade it for the next new thing...

Shoot hell out of whatcha got....

Shane

McCall911
January 25, 2006, 04:44 PM
I like this article by our own alum, Massad Ayoob:

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob93.html

Taurus 617 CCW
January 25, 2006, 04:57 PM
I have carried and practiced with Hydra-Shok's, Gold Dots, El Dorado Starfire's, and FMJ's. So far I have found the Gold Dots to be the most easily controlled ones. I shot those out of a Glock 27 in .40 cal. They Hydra-Shok's were used in a Taurus 617 chambered in .357 magnum and used the El Dorado's in the same gun as .38 special defense loads. Like everyone else said, you can carry a "Bus Launcher" but if you can't hit anything it won't matter. For what it's worth, I also carry a S&W 629 with .44 special Gold Dot Hollow points as a special urban load when power is an issue. (Sometimes wider is better)

GoBrush
January 25, 2006, 11:47 PM
[QUOTE=Deer Hunter]If you want, get a .45 and buy into all the hype that the 9mm is a sucky round.

Or.

Get a 9mm, don't believe the hype, and learn how to shoot. Honestly, I'm a .45 guy (hotly loaded, mind you), yet I see nothing wrong with a 9mm. They are both great rounds, and everything boils down to shot placement. Sure, it might say that the guy was shot 7 times, but how many of those were in arms/legs?


+1

For your 9mm I reccomend Got Dot 115gr.

noresttill
January 26, 2006, 01:15 AM
Guess Im gonna hafta spring for Gold Dots, Hydroshocks, and Rangers to see what I hit the best with. Boy the gun shops are gonna love me.

What about Galsers? Hype?

jeremywills
January 26, 2006, 02:17 AM
I use the WWB stuff all the time, 4.86 at acadmey is cheap nuff for me to play at the range all day :) and keep constant shooting mechanics with my handgun.

I keep Federal 124 Grain HydraShok JHP's in my Magazines when Im not at the range. These feed the best in my Taurus Millenium and I honestly think a properly placed double tap center mass should be more than sufficient with these in the pipe. I honestly doubt if it should go south Ill be up against someone with a loadbearing vest with some sort of Kevlar underneath so the issue of someone with thick Tactical Gear and Body Armor are a very slight chance for me to tangle with. Most likely some dirtbag with a tshirt and jeans is what Ill be up against and FWIW some form of a gun in the hand is better than none and though you may read of people walking away from being shot with a 9mm, theres plenty of documented cases of those that haven't.

As always YMMV. Thats my 2 cents on yet again this silly vs caliber issue.

For the record, I once talked to an EMT at a gunshow and this very discussion of caliber came up and he commented in his career and line of work they got more calls of people being shot with .22 than anything else and they had also had more patients die of this than anything else. I'll believe an EMT on that one, he would know. Food for thought. As hard as it is for some folks to accept it, .22's do kill my friend. Hmm, widely available, cheap ammo, easiest guns to shoot, you do the math. My advice is your comfortable with the 9, utilize the 9. If you can tackle the .45, then go for it. Not the most optimum, but .22 in a jam. Good luck as only you in the end can decide what is going to work best for you. If your gun wont feed em right, then they are not the round for you. If your gun can't handle the +p rated stuff repeatedly, then why shorten its life. I would seriously look for any and all user feedback you can find on your particular gun and see what other folks have to report. There should be plenty of feedback on the Glock 17 ;) but IMHO anything you probably choose should be just fine.

Once again, good luck.

J

pauli
January 26, 2006, 02:38 AM
all handgun rounds are marginal. some are more marginal than others, and some are marginal in different ways than others, but whenever someone starts claiming that handgun caliber x is ideal for stopping assailants, my advice is to stop listening.

stopping assailants is a lot like moving cross country. you'll have people bickering about what truck to buy with moving in mind - ford vs chevy, full size vs compact vs something in between - when really, you want an eighteen wheeler.

carebear
January 26, 2006, 03:00 AM
Given that you should shoot multiple magazines/cylinders of your carry ammo through your carry weapon, Glasers get a bit spendy.

There's no real evidence they work any better than a quality hollowpoint.

YMMV but I wouldn't spend the extra dough.

Doesn't WWB have a 147 gr. hollowpoint loand? Shoot and carry that. When discussing handgun round performance you're really talking nths of practical difference.

The-Fly
January 26, 2006, 03:45 AM
I've done a fair amount of redneck testing of 9mm rounds, here's my test results, and judge for yourself :)

http://www.btfh.net/shoot/bullet-test-1.html

http://www.btfh.net/shoot/bullet-test-2.html

Mad Chemist
January 26, 2006, 04:00 AM
Guess Im gonna hafta spring for Gold Dots, Hydroshocks, and Rangers to see what I hit the best with. Boy the gun shops are gonna love me.

What about Galsers? Hype?

If your talking about Glaser Safety Slugs, then yes, hype indeed. They might have a limited role to fill but IMO they're not worth the money. Corbon Powerball worked well for me in .40. I'm going to try some in 9mm in the new G19 this weekend. Gold dots have been reliable and accurate for me as well and the "flying ashtrays" they make for .44spl are sweet.:D Hydoshocks always seemed a little light to me, but I've never fired the +P+ flavor.

JH

noresttill
January 26, 2006, 01:39 PM
According to the flys second test, those Fed HST's were beautiful! I never even heard of them. I was impressed to hear about the wwb hp, too.

And I thought glasers were bunk, though I was talking to some kind of security person shooting with me aty the range and he said that there are certain rounds he is "not supposed" to carry. The Glaser was one of them.

Universal
January 26, 2006, 01:57 PM
The-Fly, thanks for sharing your test results. I actually think I saw them on another board and it made me consider the Winchester White Box (USA) JHPs.

With regard to Glaser Safety Slugs, a friend of mine had some that he kept in his HD revolver for several years. We decided to shoot them at the range after I found some Speer 135 grain +p .38 ammo when it first came out. I fired two rounds, no big deal but the third darn near blew up my gun it seemed. Flames came shooting out the side of the gun it made a weird noise. We looked at the case and the side had cracked. Needless to say, we did not fire the last three rounds and we both decided that we would not waste our money on ammo so expensive that can not be trusted. I am well aware that this may have been a 1 in a 1000 type thing but I am not willing to take that chance. I sure am glad it happened at the range and not in a life or death situation.

Manedwolf
January 26, 2006, 02:13 PM
There seems to be a swing back to 45 caliber in the military...

And I wonder...how much of this is due to combatants wearing gear...protective or otherwise across the chest area...It seems everybody you see...who is geared up...has mag carrers and what not on their chest...

Maybe they were experiencing something in the field..that a guy on the street might not...

MAybe the 45 pack more of a punch...knocks folks down...I don't know....


The military also has to use FMJ, remember. And I think a LOT of cops would argue that 9mm JHP is more effective than FMJ?

Manedwolf
January 26, 2006, 02:17 PM
Question I'd have, though, as to opinion on several of the brands of +P 9mm I see in shops.

Federal Hydrashok +P
Hornady TAP +P (both old stock 'brass' and new 'black')
Cor-Bon +P

I'd already heard quite a bit good about the Speer Gold Dot.

And of the above, any experience with feed issues, good/bad of any of the above brands in a Beretta or Taurus 92's double-stack mag?

Thanks!

kbheiner7
January 26, 2006, 10:53 PM
I won't say the 9mm is a lousy round, but I think there's a reason so many PDs bumped up to the .40 S&W when it came out.

I like the .45 simply because it makes bigger holes.

That all said, all of these rounds are pretty lousy man-stoppers. Some just more lousy than others.

albanian
January 26, 2006, 11:52 PM
Most people shot with a 9mm can walk away from the shooting with only minor injury. Many times they don't have to go to the emergency room at all and simple band-aid will fix them right up. 9mms are really only for Nazis and gangsters anyway.

Getting shot with a 9mm is not a big deal. You want to get shot with a .45 though. The .45 is a fight stopper! Nobody ever walks away from getting shot with a .45acp. The .45acp is a man's gun! It is break your arm if you hold it wrong the recoil is so bad. It will literally knock people 10' backwards when they are hit by it.

Seriously, I have done some tests of my own and I can say without question that 9mm is better in some situations and .45acp is better in others. 9mm FMJ will penetrate futher than .45acp fmj. .45acp HPs will expand to a larger size than 9mm HPs.

If I knew the guy I had to shoot was wearing a tee shirt, I would pick a .45acp HP. If I thought he might be hiding behind a car door or be wearing a thick leather coat, I would pick a 9mm FMJ. For all around use, I think a 9mm HP is the way to go because it is faster than a .45acp yet will still expand in flesh. If it gets clogged up, it will just penetrate more and turn into a FMJ in effect. Also, you tend to get more 9mms in the same sized gun than .45s so that more than makes up for any other factor. I would rather have a few extra shots when I needed them than the most powerful gun in the world if it was empty! I know nobody ever misses with a .45acp for some reason so they always think they are fine with their 7-8rds. That is fine, I would still prefer to have a few extras just in case. It is better to have a few extra rounds and not need them than to need them and not have them.:)

jeremywills
January 27, 2006, 12:11 AM
ehh?

so are you saying its ok to just wear a tshirt, thats all the body armor I would need :rolleyes:

Im just confused with your statements there sir :confused:

Your either dissing the 9 mil and or defending it :D

pick one please for the love of god LOL :evil:

albanian
January 27, 2006, 01:27 AM
Your kidding right? I thought it was clear that the first two paragraphs were jokes. I guess you can't even joke around anymore without someone thinking you are serious.:banghead:

albanian
January 27, 2006, 01:29 AM
"And of the above, any experience with feed issues, good/bad of any of the above brands in a Beretta or Taurus 92's double-stack mag?"

The Beretta is one of the most reliable pistols ever made. If you have feed issues, it would surprise me. I think you will be fine if you are shooting a Beretta. Test your ammo first and then rest easy.

Rob1035
January 27, 2006, 01:55 AM
I've done a fair amount of redneck testing of 9mm rounds, here's my test results, and judge for yourself :)

http://www.btfh.net/shoot/bullet-test-1.html

http://www.btfh.net/shoot/bullet-test-2.html


cool deal, i'm loving the WWB 147gr, but I wonder what the velocity is like out of my G26?

Nematocyst
January 27, 2006, 06:14 AM
Don't get hung up on death or recovery statistics, if the shot attacker stops attacking that's a win. +1(000)

Nematocyst
January 27, 2006, 06:16 AM
Your kidding right? I thought it was clear that the first two paragraphs were jokes. I guess you can't even joke around anymore without someone thinking you are serious.:banghead: I was laughing.

:D

DAVE RICHARDS
January 28, 2006, 04:13 AM
Look two of the the largest LEO organizations in the world use the 9mm. N.Y.P.D. uses Glock 19's loaded with Speer 124 gr. +p rounds. The various LEO organizations that cover Los Angeles carry 9mm Berettas loaded with 147 gr. Winchester Ranger's. Until switching over to the .357 Sig the Secret Service carried Sig 228's loaded with 115 gr. Remington +P+ rounds. And on and on. All these organizaions are very happy with their 9mm's. The first two areas probably have more gunfights than any group except maybe the Border Patrol. The point is they keep using the 9mm's because with the right loads they work and work well. The Secret Service went to the .357 Sig because they liked the 9mm +p+ round and felt the .357 Sig was more of the same only better velocity yet. Most rounds are designed to meet the F.B.I. criteria for penetration and expansion. This means all the service calibers are designed to work the same way. And for the most part they do. Load your 17 with 124 gr. +p Gold Dots or one of the Wincester Ranger equivalents, put the bullet in the right spot, and it will end hostilities as well as any other pistol round. Forget the urban myths. The 9mm works as proven by N.Y.P.D. and the L.A.P.D. everyday.

strambo
January 28, 2006, 06:32 AM
You don't have to spend lots of $$ trying all the different brands. Just pick one of the good ones (gold dot, Hydra shok, SXT, hornady) and try it. If it feeds reliably and hits near POA and is readily available locally for purchase, stay with it.

armoredman
January 28, 2006, 12:21 PM
I will probably switch to the Hornady 124gr XTP. Why? Because I also reload the bullet, and using the exact same for training/practice will benefit me in the long run. Not to mention, it is an excellent bullet.

Skipper
January 28, 2006, 10:12 PM
The desire by many in the military to have a .45 is mostly due to their being forced to use FMJ. As a civilian, you work under no such restriction. Using any of the JHP loads you mentioned will be all you'll ever need in a defensive handgun.
SKIP

jeremywills
January 29, 2006, 12:34 AM
hey albanian :)

I was joking along with ya, i guess you misunderstood and took me seriously

Of course I know a tshirt is the almighty 9mm stopper, why everyone around here seems to think the .45 is king ;)

S&W620
January 29, 2006, 09:37 PM
Use the gold dots personally. Not too shabby. Haven't tried the others.

Dirty Bob
January 30, 2006, 03:36 PM
I believe that placement is key, provided you're using something capable of stopping an attack. The 9mm, .40S&W and .45ACP will all work if placed well, with a high-quality hollow point. None of them will work with a poor hit or a miss.

If you shoot well with the 9mm, and your pistol is reliable with your chosen name brand, premium JHP ammo, your search is over.

One of the great things about the 9mm is the cheap practice ammo you can buy. You need to practice, and you can afford more of it with the 9mm. Additionally, you can buy 9mm -- in a pinch -- in just about any place that sells ammo.

All my best,
Dirty Bob

If you enjoyed reading about "9mm question" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!