.30-06 v .308: which has greater felt recoil


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Nematocyst
January 25, 2006, 03:12 AM
Evening all.

I've been exploring this issue on THR for several weeks now,
so if you're bored with it, please just pass on by.
{Nothing to see here...}

From at least three threads on THR,
I've gained the impression that .308 Win
has less felt recoil than .30-06.

Thus, I've been considering buying my first centerfire rifle
in 20 years as a .308, or even a 7mm08.

{Because I'm NOT a recoil junky.
I HATE recoil, which makes me flinch,
destroying those 1" groups @ 100 m.}

Yet today, while picking up my CZ 452 from my gun shop,
I engaged in a discussion about that .308 v .30-06 recoil issue
with an (ostensibly) knowledgeable riflemman, also a reloader,
who argues that .30-06 produces LESS felt recoil than does the .308.

The reason, he claims, has something to do with the way the powder burns,
such that the .308 hits all at once, whereas the .30-06 is more prolonged,
stretching the felt recoil out over a longer time, allowing one's body
to adjust, to move with the recoil.

As one who is looking to purchase the ideal do-everything rifle, I like the fact that the .30-06 has a MUCH greater range of bullet weights than .308 (and a FAR, FAR, GREATER range than the 7mm08).

But - just to be clear - I'm NOT a recoil junky, and am willing to sacrifice bullet weight range for less recoil.

Advice welcomed and encouraged, especially that based in experience.

Thanks,

Nem

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cracked butt
January 25, 2006, 03:19 AM
The 30-06 is going to have more recoil- more mass of hot gasses coming out the front and a faster projectile. On the other hand a long action 30-06 may weigh a pound more than a short action .308. There isn't enough difference for me to really tell. The 30-06 does have more muzzle blast in my experience however.

Ol` Joe
January 25, 2006, 03:29 AM
Bullet wgt, Gun wgt, stock shape, velocity of the load, there are a few variables that will affect the felt recoil, one can`t state that either will "kick" more without listing specifics. All else being equal though, the 308 will recoil less. The velocity is lower for a given bullet wgt.

You can figure recoil for any gun/cartridge combo useing the formula at this site..........http://stevespages.com/recoil.html

Ifishsum
January 25, 2006, 03:38 AM
With the same bullet weights I'd be surprised if you felt much difference in recoil. The weight of the rifle and quality of the recoil pad will make much more difference in felt recoil.

If you're looking for the all purpose cartridge, the venerable .06 is hard to beat. I put a Limbsaver pad on a M70 '06 and started my oldest son on it at 13 - he had no complaints whatsoever.

odysseus
January 25, 2006, 03:54 AM
Same amount of kick to me, however it's more the rifle there than the round between these two.

Nematocyst
January 25, 2006, 04:01 AM
Excellent, even exciting,
ideas & feedback.

Thanks.

Keep it comin', please.

;)

Nem

Nematocyst
January 25, 2006, 04:13 AM
...it's more the rifle there than the round between these two. Any opinions about which rifle are also quite welcome.

My eyes are on Tikka T3, Savage 16HFSS & Rem 700 XCR.

Nem

Preacherman
January 25, 2006, 04:15 AM
Recoil has so many factors involved that it's almost impossible to tell the difference between two almost-identical calibers like .308 and .30-'06 from the cartridge alone. Consider:

1. Bullet weight. A heavier bullet will generally produce more felt recoil than a lighter bullet, given a similar-weight rifle.

2. Propellant charge. A larger propellant charge will generally produce more felt recoil than a smaller charge, given the same bullet weight.

3. Propellant burn rate. A fast-burning propellant (suitable for shorter barrels) will burn very quickly, producing a rapid recoil impulse. A slower-burning propellant (suitable for longer barrels) will produce a more gradual recoil impulse, spread out over a few microseconds instead of coming "all at once".

4. Rifle weight. Generally, the heavier the weapon, the lower the felt recoil, for a given cartridge. The distribution of the weight also has an effect: a muzzle-heavy rifle will kick "up" less and "back" more, whereas a stock-heavy rifle will kick "up" more and "back" less. Ideally, weight distribution should be centered around the receiver and magazine area for best recoil control and all-around "handleability".

5. Stock design. A stock that fits you well (i.e. doesn't bump your cheekbone upon firing, fits your shoulder well, is suitable for your shooting position, etc.) will generally feel much more comfortable in recoil than one that doesn't fit you well. A classic example is the 1903 Springfield compared to the 1917 Enfield. Both fire the same cartridge, but the Springfield is generally considered to be much more uncomfortable to shoot than the Enfield, due to its inferior stock design. The location of the sights also has an effect: if you have to scrunch down against the stock to get a good sight picture, recoil will affect you more. If the line of sight falls naturally in your eye plane when you have a good hold and shooting stance, you'll be much less bothered by recoil.

6. Recoil-reducing equipment on the rifle. A decent recoil pad (e.g. Kick-Eez, Limbsaver, Pachmayr Decelerator, etc.) will take out up to 50% of felt recoil, whereas an older-type pad might only relieve 10%-20%, and a solid butt-plate won't help at all. A muzzle brake or compensator can take out a lot of upward recoil, pushing the rifle straight back into the shoulder instead of back and upward - this makes the "feel" of the recoil rather different, and often more comfortable (although also often louder!). Cheek-pieces and recoil-absorbing substances such as Pachmayr's Pac-Skin can also be applied to the comb of the stock, thus making it "softer" against the cheek under recoil. Weights can be added, fore or aft, to help adjust the felt recoil (shotgunners routinely do this).

7. Experience of the shooter. An experienced shooter will fit the gun to himself rather better than will a beginner, so that his hold and stance soak up much more recoil than a beginner will be able to achieve.

8. Climatic/environmental factors. A shooter in a cold climate will be wearing several layers of clothing. These will help to absorb recoil. A shooter in a hot climate might be wearing only a T-shirt, which will do little to help with recoil.

Just a few things to keep in mind. Sorry to complicate your question, but these factors will affect felt recoil far more than any actual difference between .308 and .30-'06! :D

Nematocyst
January 25, 2006, 04:27 AM
Recoil has so many factors involved that it's almost impossible to tell the difference between two almost-identical calibers like .308 and .30-'06 from the cartridge alone. Consider:

<snip numerous relevant factors>

Just a few things to keep in mind. Sorry to complicate your question, but these factors will affect felt recoil far more than any actual difference between .308 and .30-'06! :D P'man,

Your essay clarifies rather than complicates by several orders of magnitude.

Great response. A+. Muchas gracias. ;)

Nem

Preacherman
January 25, 2006, 05:27 AM
Nem, the factors I mentioned can make a hard-kicking cartridge much more manageable - so much so that a real stomper can have perceived recoil no worse than a relatively mild cartridge.

To give you an example: back in South Africa, I had a Musgrave rifle in .375 H&H Magnum. This is a "medium" rifle by African standards (a "heavy" would typically begin at .400 caliber and go up from there, all the way to the "super-heavies" such as the .600 and .700 Nitro Express rounds). The .375 has about two to two-and-a-half times the recoil momentum of a typical .308 in similar-weight rifles - the bullet weight is twice as heavy, the charge is much greater, etc. However, my Musgrave was set up by people who knew how to tame recoil. There were no modern pads such as Kick-Eez, Limbsaver or Decelerator available when it was built back in the 1970's, but the designers used a heavy barrel and heavy wood to give the rifle a weight of between 10 and 11 pounds when loaded, and a bit more when fitted with a telescopic sight. This is 3-5 pounds heavier than a typical American hunting rifle, or in percentage terms, about a 50% weight increase. They also designed the stock to fit very well indeed, so that the recoil was directed back into the shoulder, and put on it the best recoil pad available to them, which soaked up perhaps 20% of the kick. I found that if I fitted the rifle to myself properly when taking up a shooting position, I could control it just fine for accurate, rapid shots at game such as buffalo. I'd estimate its recoil to be no worse than a typical US .338-'06 cartridge, in a typical American hunting rifle, and certainly no major problem to control. However, that same rifle, fired by those who'd never been trained to adopt a proper shooting position, and who were used to military semi-auto's in .308, seemed to them to have a very heavy recoil - uncomfortably so.

If I had that rifle today, I'd put on a Kick-Eez pad for even better recoil reduction, and I'd expect it to kick not much worse than a full-house .30-'06 in a typical American lightweight hunting rifle. However, if you took the .375 H&H and chambered it in a typical 7-8 pound US rifle, it would kick like a mule, even with a Kick-Eez pad, because of not having the weight in the gun to absorb some of the recoil.

Nematocyst
January 25, 2006, 06:08 AM
They also designed the stock to fit very well indeed, so that the recoil was directed back into the shoulder, and put on it the best recoil pad available to them, which soaked up perhaps 20% of the kick. I found that if I fitted the rifle to myself properly when taking up a shooting position, I could control it just fine for accurate, rapid shots at game such as buffalo. P'man, thanks for the continued advice. Much appreciated.

Since the discussion last afternoon with the sales guy at my gun shop,
I've been thinking a lot about this point of recoil being directed into one's shoulder.

His recommendation: let the barrel intersect the plane of the butt plate at a perpendicular angle. 90*.

So, I've been looking at images tonight.

I've compared the Savage 116FHSS (http://www.savagearms.com/116fhss.htm) v Rem 700 XCR (http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_rifles/model_700/model_700_XCR_specs.asp).

The latter has a more perpendicular angle to the barrel.
The Savage butt plate/barrel angle is more acute.

IYO, which one would soak up the recoil best?

(Note: these are just two rifles that have my attention,
that I have studied a bit, and handled, if not yet shot.
Examples involving others are welcomed.)

Thanks. Getting closer to a decision...

Nem

Waffen
January 25, 2006, 07:05 AM
If the XCR has the new "R3" recoil pad, I would say it would do best. The "R3" is nothing but a rebranded limbsaver recoil pad (the best IMO). The XCR is also close to 1lbs heavier.

Honestly though, when compairing both these rifles I would doubt you would even begin to notice the difference between recoil. The 30-06 practically becomes a childs toy after a while. I own an SPS chambered in 30-06 and it's quite managable.

IMO if all things are considered equal in terms of the rifle, if you feel beat up by a 30-06, your going to feel beat up by a .308.

Preacherman has offered you some exellent advice, as he normally does, however in this situation, I would go with the XCR in 30-06, replace the trigger, and grab a scope that you like, and go shoot!

Nematocyst
January 25, 2006, 07:45 AM
...in this situation, I would go with the XCR in 30-06, replace the trigger, and grab a scope that you like, and go shoot!Waffen, good points all.

Any advice about how to 'replace the trigger' will be helpful.

I.e., if I take it to a gunsmith, what kind of trigger replacement would you recommend?

Or do you recommend a particular national or regional smith to do that replacement?

Thanks,

Nem

PS: I'm thinking the scope for this rifle will be something near a Leupold VX-L (http://www.leupold.com/products/vx-l/main.html).

Waffen
January 25, 2006, 07:59 AM
bah, no gunsmith needed to replace a trigger on a Remington 700. It's VERY easy.

All you do is remove the bolt, stock, and floor plate (2 screws total) Then take a rubber mallet, and a punch and knock out the 2 pins retaining the trigger assembly. You will also need to remember how the bolt release mechenism goes back together, if you don't just post on here and somone should be able to easily help you. It's very easy. My first time it took me about an hour because I couldn't figure out how to reattach the bolt release spring and after consulting my girlfriend for help it was easy as pie. I installed 2 rem 700 triggers in 45 minutes from start to finish the other day. It's very very easy.

Then, just throw in the new trigger and your good to go!

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=172312

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=563419

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=345733

Obviously you buy the trigger based on the release weight, but I just posted these to give you an idea. I like my triggers in the 1.0-1.5 area. I'm up for hte night shift so ask away!

Waffen
January 25, 2006, 08:04 AM
As for the VX-L scope, I am sure it's a very nice scope, however you might be able to get more bang for your buck with another type. Leupold makes VERY nice scopes. I have a VX-III and a Vari-X III both in 6.5-20x40 and they are top noctch scopes.

I honestly think that burris offers and equal quality scope for much less. I would consider the Burris Signature Select line of scopes to be equal to the VX-III, but thats just me. Everyone has an opinon when it comes to scopes. Most will say Leupold because everyone drops the name like it was a hot coal. I don't think many have compaired models side by side in the field.

It's certianly up to you however! It sounds like you are willing to spend the money to make a really nice rifle which is refreshing to see.

BigFatKen
January 25, 2006, 09:55 AM
I am humbled by the quality of the info given. What are you going to do with the rifle? If the answer is "sometimes I will shoot cheap surplus ammo", then you must pick a military caliber. However, if the answer is elk, deer, or smaller, but never anything like moose or dangerous bears, then you are using a bigger rifle than you need. If you are going to shoot not more than 150 gr bullets you can use the .270 which the Savage is chambered in. If you choose another brand, you can pick the 7mm/08. You can then use the lower recoiling 130 gr bullets.

However, no one mensioned the "ejecta" which is what comes out of the barrel. It is so small it is not used in the equation referenced above. The 150 gr bullet, leaves at one speed. The gunpowder gas mass leaves at various speeds, but most are higher than bullet speed. Velocity is squared in this equation. If the .30-06 needs 55 gr powder and the .308 only needs 50 gr because of more efficent case size, the recoil of the extra 5 grains of powder will be 5 more squared. Lets say the .30-06 has a 22" barrel and the .308 has a 24" barrel. Both rifles will get very similiar velocities. I am going to use 2800 fps. Some gas does not leave and some leaves at full burn rate speed, It averages ~4000 fps.

The equation is this:
the .30-06 150x2800^2 + 55x4000^2/
the .308 150x2800^2 + 50x4000^2= and the answer is the .30-06 has 3.7% more recoil
However, the .30-06 usually gets more speed as you would choose the same barrel length.. So, a direct proportion can not be done. This would work exactly if both cartriges got exactly the same velocity.


If cost is a factor, I would get a Savage .270 with the Acc-u-trigger. It is a great trigger and rifle for the $349 with scope at Wal-Mart. At that price, it is a cheap scope.

Personaly, I shoot through both sides of a 145 pound deer at 200 yards with 120 gr .25-06. It is very mild kicking. If you are going to hunt elk, you may want to go to 150 gr. You can do that with the 7mm/08 If you really need the 220 gr bullets availble in .30-06, you need more gun.

Waffen
January 25, 2006, 10:04 AM
http://home.austin.rr.com/mikesguns/10-21-05%20Deer.jpg

165gr Hornady Interlock SP
56gr IMR 4350
Fed 215M
Winchester Brass
3.33 OAL

Deer was taken at 125 yards, after the dust cloud cleared all I could see was hoves in the same spot I was aming. 30-06 puts them down hard.

BigFatKen
January 25, 2006, 11:02 AM
I had an interesting thing happen with my .25-06 with 120 gr Rem pointed bt bullet. I hit 110 lb deer standing 90 degree broadsides at 170 yd in right shoulder. The exit wound was 1"x4" with tapered ends. Another hunter, about 130 yards further and to the left some behind a rock outcroping, heard the sounds. There was a "crack" and a small part of a second later, the rifle report. The deer was in a muddy field so we did not find the bullet, but it is unlikely the bullet went through a deer's bones, bounced off a muddy field, passed through 130 yards of woods without hitting a tree and passed overhead at supersonic speed.

We believe the "crack" was the sound of the shoulders breaking as evidenced by the big piece of bone that must have helped make the exit wound. You do not need 165 gr bullet for average deer.

For the very recoil untolerant, I recommend a lighter bullet and wait for side shots. If you are going to be presented with a lot of rear shots as in woods hunting, then you need the heavy bullets.

geekWithA.45
January 25, 2006, 11:06 AM
I'm skeptical of the claim that the slower recoil impulse gives the body time to adjust anything.

We're talking milliseconds here.

A lot of people don't realize that we perpetualy live "behind the curve", and that what's happened in the real world is over by the time we percieve it.

Our sense communicate to our brains via nerves, and nerves conduct information via electro chemical means, which has a definite, measurable velocity, which is surprisingly slow.

I did the math on it one time. Assuming average nerve conduction velocities, (and also assuming I didn't mess the math up) @ 60 mph, you're already (IIRC) 11 feet beyond the chunk of road you're looking at under your front bumper.

Of course, our brain/mind does a fantastic job of patching it all together so it makes coherent sense to us.

Father Knows Best
January 25, 2006, 11:17 AM
I'm skeptical of the claim that the slower recoil impulse gives the body time to adjust anything.

We're talking milliseconds here.

I'm not. I shoot a lot of black powder cartridges. Even when loaded with the same projectile weight and to the same velocity, there is a noticeable difference in the feel when compared to black powder. I'm told (and believe) that it has to do with the shape of the curve, i.e., that the slower burning black powder produces more of a shove than a kick. You can easily measure the effect with the right equipment, but it seems to me that it is also easily felt in the shoulder.

That said(tm), I do not believe that your average individual will notice any real different in recoil between the .30-'06 and .308 Winchester cartridges, assuming they are fired from identical rifles and the cartridges are loaded with bullets of the same mass and driven at the same velocities. The theoretical difference in recoil impulse caused by the different charge weights is so small as to be insignificant. I am willing to bet that anyone who claims to have felt a significant difference in the recoil of the two cartridges was feeling the impacts of different loads (projectile mass or velocity) or different rifles, or both.

MCgunner
January 25, 2006, 11:30 AM
The .308 even in a lightweight rifle like my Remington M7 is easy on the shoulder to me. I can't see why anyone would worry much about the recoil. I'm quite recoil tolerant, been putting up with big shotguns for many, many years hunting geese and ducks and have shot big magnum rifles up to and including .375 H&H, so maybe it's just my perception, but my M7 is quite easy on my shoulder. Heck, guys fire .308s and .30-06s in TC Encores, HANDguns!

If you worry much about it, you can get a Savage (or used to could, haven't looked at the Savage catalog lately) with a recoil compensator. Also, there's that Browning with the same. I know the recoil compensators I've used, one on an old Egyptian Hakim in 8x57 and one on a TC contender .30-30 hunter barrel, work VERY well. You can get on installed on about any rifle, place in Sequin, Texas used to make 'em and it was all the rage with the belted magnum wussies that bought a .300 Win Mag and found out they couldn't handle it, ROFLMAO! Why they wanted such a cannon for whitetail deer in TEXAS is another debate. :rolleyes: But, I've known guys that had that compensator installed and it works. I cannot for the life of me remember what that thing is called or the company that installed it. But, they were all the rage 15 or 20 years ago.

Only thing I've found about recoil compensators, especially in magnum rifles, is it sure puts a train on an unprotected ear in the woods.:eek: I hunt with muffs on my head when I hunt with the Contender. At least a rifle gets that thing pretty far out in front of you.

MCgunner
January 25, 2006, 11:39 AM
I had an interesting thing happen with my .25-06 with 120 gr Rem pointed bt bullet. I hit 110 lb deer standing 90 degree broadsides at 170 yd in right shoulder. The exit wound was 1"x4" with tapered ends. Another hunter, about 130 yards further and to the left some behind a rock outcroping, heard the sounds. There was a "crack" and a small part of a second later, the rifle report. The deer was in a muddy field so we did not find the bullet, but it is unlikely the bullet went through a deer's bones, bounced off a muddy field, passed through 130 yards of woods without hitting a tree and passed overhead at supersonic speed.

We believe the "crack" was the sound of the shoulders breaking as evidenced by the big piece of bone that must have helped make the exit wound. You do not need 165 gr bullet for average deer.

For the very recoil untolerant, I recommend a lighter bullet and wait for side shots. If you are going to be presented with a lot of rear shots as in woods hunting, then you need the heavy bullets.

If you worry about penetration with a .25, try the Hornady 117 grain Interlock. I used it one year and found it had too much penetration for whitetail. I was handloading it to 3050 fps from a .257 Roberts, shot completely through a decent 8 point from butt to neck! I shot a 7 point with it quartering angle, in the shoulder and out at the diaphragm and it didn't expand. So, I went to a 100 grain Sierra Game King because my shots ideally are broadside. That deer I shot through lengthwise turned to walk away JUST as I was breaking the trigger. LOL! He folded like a sack of turnips, though.

Penetration is all in the bullet. If I did much with my .257 anymore, I'd experiment with Barnes X bullets, penetration AND expansion. They work great on big hogs in .308, the 140 grainer, and still expand even on Coyotes. They're amazing. They're a bit expensive, but well worth the cost. My .308 shoots them only 1/2 inch lower than my 150 grain Nosler Ballistic tip load at 100 yards, so I use the same sight in and have both drop tables taped to my scope so I can sit in the stand and memorize the one I'm using any given morning. :D Or, I can quick reference it in the field when I'm spot and stalking.

BTW, I've heard the sound of bones breaking before, too. I shot a doe out in west Texas some years ago with my .257, bullet went in the left shoulder, bounced up and it the spine and shattered a vertebrae, and deflected down, busted a rib, and stopped under the off side skin. That was a 100 Grain Sierra Game King BTSP. I think when it hit the vertebrae is when I heard the "crack" sound. It was distinctively NOT the sound of the bullet and came back to me after the shot from the deer which was about 250 yards away.

geekWithA.45
January 25, 2006, 11:54 AM
Father Knows Best:

I think you misunderstand me.

I'm NOT claiming that you can't PERCIEVE the difference. For example, the slow impulse of a .45 is distinctly different from the fast impulse of .40 cal.

What I am saying is that you won't be able to "adjust" anything in the time between hammerfall and bullet exit.


Just because you can percieve a difference doesn't necessarilly mean you can do anything meaningful with the information.


"Adjusting" requires a feedback loop that cannot possibly be completed before the bullet exits the muzzle, and once that happens, nothing you do will have any impact on its flight.

Father Knows Best
January 25, 2006, 11:56 AM
What I am saying is that you won't be able to meaninfully "adjust" anything in the time between hammerfall and bullet exit.

"Adjusting" requires a feedback loop that cannot possibly be completed before the bullet exits the muzzle, and once that happens, nothing you do will have any impact on its flight.

Aaaahhhh. Got it. We are in agreement.

The .40S&W vs. .45 ACP comparison is a good one. I hate the .40 S&W. It has a sharp "kick" that bothers me in ways my .45's do not.

Roudy
January 25, 2006, 12:10 PM
One thing you can do to reduce felt recoil without spending a penny is to pull the rifle tightly into your shoulder. If the rifle doesn't contact your shoulder or contacts it lightly then the rifle builds up velocity before it contacts something solid in your shoulder. If you hole the rifle tightly in your shoulder you get a heavy push rather than a viscious slap.

To test this theory have a friend hold their fist a inch or two from your shoulder then punch you in the shoulder. Conversly have your friend put their fist tightly into your shoulder then punch. You will find a big difference.

Sulaco
January 25, 2006, 12:46 PM
Good Lord nematocyst, are you ever gonna buy that stinkin rifle?!? :neener:

I learned this morning that Remington no longer installs the J-lock safety on the 2006 and up models. I am also in the market for a new bolt action rifle and have decided on the 30-06. My biggest reason is because this year, the old ought 6 is 100 years old. I want to celebrate that and 30-06 is as good as the next cartridge for Whitetail deer.

I grew up shooting so recoil isn't even something I think about. I don't think there is much difference in the recoil of a rifle chambered for .308 or for 30-06. Bullet weight is a little bit of a factor, but not much. If you can shoot a .308, you can shoot a 30-06. But honestly, I think you are putting more into this recoil thing than you should.

If you want a bench rifle you can shoot all day, don't buy a deer rifle. Buy something like a heavy barrelled varmint rifle chambered for .223 or .204Ruger or something along those lines. If you want a deer rifle you will only be shooting a little bit, buy a .308 or 30-06.

I have pretty much decided on a CZ 550 American in 30-06 but that was before I found out Remington dropped the J-lock safety so now I am researching them again.

Lupinus
January 25, 2006, 01:52 PM
Generaly speaking you will feel more from the 30-06 since it is the more powerful round.

Now that that direct to the point answer is taken care of the more long winded one comes. Many things will effect it, stock, stock shape, weight, etc. Also if it is to much you have an excuse to get a nice recoil pad.

ArmedBear
January 25, 2006, 02:17 PM
Recoil is a function of velocity and the total weight of the contents of the round, including powder and bullet, and the total weight of the rifle.

That's why black powder recoil energy can be higher than an equivalent load of nitrocellulose -- typical BP rifle loads are 70-150 grains. BP recoil is also more gradual, though, so it feels "different" one way or another.

So, a .30-06, which in standard loadings has a slightly higher velocity than .308 with the same bullet weight, would (probably) have higher recoil because the case (probably) contains more powder by weight, though a different kind of powder. It would also have slightly higher recoil due simply to a slightly higher muzzle velocity.

If you handload, it depends what you put in the thing, of course.

As far as felt recoil, that depends on stock geometry, recoil pad, action type, etc. A .308 is more likely found in a lighter, shorter bolt action rifle, whereas a .30-06 is generally a round for a full-sized gun, just because the .308 is a short-action round and the .30-06 is a long-action round. Small, light guns tend to have more felt recoil than large, heavy ones, just like little subcompact cars tend to bounce more harshly over bumps vs. big heavy land yachts, even if both have similar shocks and suspension.

Infidel
January 25, 2006, 02:21 PM
If I were you, I would choose the .308, simply because I perceive it as the best all-around cartridge available today (.30-'06 second). I just Really like the .308.

If I were you, I would go for the Tikka (although I've never fired one), because it is the little brother to the Sakos that I think are the finest production rifles available.

Being me, I'll just keep putting pennies away for the next Sako.

In any case, I will bet that, blindflded, most of us could not tell the difference between two more or less identical rifles firing the .30-'06 and the .308 with the same bullet weights.

Preacherman
January 25, 2006, 02:39 PM
As to the choice of rifles, I'll go with Infidel: a Tikka in .308 is an outstanding rifle, and would be right up there on my list of top choices. Others would be a CZ, with Savage heading the list of US manufacturers.

Bear in mind that a .308 gives you access to military surplus ammo, which makes practice a whole bunch cheaper (unless you reload). There are those who say that you shouldn't fire 7.62x51mm. NATO ammo in a civilian .308 chamber, due to differing pressures, etc. This is not a factor, IMHO - the civilian rifle is "proofed" at a minimum of 20% over SAAMI pressures, and the slightly hotter military rounds don't come even close to that sort of pressure (they're more like 5% over civilian pressures), so I shoot milsurp in my .308's without worrying. I've put thousands of rounds of milsurp downrange without a single problem.

A .30-'06 does give you the option to use heavier bullets, but down in the lower 48 States, I don't see this as being really necessary, given the high-performance bullets currently available from several manufacturers in 180gr. weights. In Alaska, for large bear and caribou, I can see a place for the 220gr. For the lower 48, the .308 will do everything you want it to do.

obm
January 25, 2006, 02:52 PM
here's recoil data from chuck hawks website:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

Mantis
January 25, 2006, 02:55 PM
bah, no gunsmith needed to replace a trigger on a Remington 700. It's VERY easy.

All you do is remove the bolt, stock, and floor plate (2 screws total) Then take a rubber mallet, and a punch and knock out the 2 pins retaining the trigger assembly. You will also need to remember how the bolt release mechenism goes back together, if you don't just post on here and somone should be able to easily help you. It's very easy. My first time it took me about an hour because I couldn't figure out how to reattach the bolt release spring and after consulting my girlfriend for help it was easy as pie. I installed 2 rem 700 triggers in 45 minutes from start to finish the other day. It's very very easy.

Then, just throw in the new trigger and your good to go!

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=172312

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=563419

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=345733

Obviously you buy the trigger based on the release weight, but I just posted these to give you an idea. I like my triggers in the 1.0-1.5 area. I'm up for hte night shift so ask away!

Waffen,

Why even bother to replace the trigger? Remington triggers can be excellent if they are adjusted properly. The triggers on my two Rem 700's (.308 VS and 30-06 SPS) are fantasic. The weight can be adjusted to just about whatever you want. They both have no overtravel and they break like a glass rod. Someone familiar with Rem triggers should do the adjustment though.

Ranger J
January 25, 2006, 04:48 PM
At least up to the heavier bullet weights 180g + because of the cartridge design and shape the .308 gets the same velocity as the 30-06 while burning less powder. It stands to reason that in identical guns the 30-06 will kick slight more. Probably the cartridges are so alike that this difference would be negotiable or not enough to worry about.
RJ

Nematocyst
January 25, 2006, 07:00 PM
Good Lord nematocyst, are you ever gonna buy that stinkin rifle?!? :neener: LOL! <Coffee spewed on keyboard>

Ah, thanks for a good 'morning' laugh, Sulaco. ("Morning" to me since I work nights.)

Yeah, I'll get it eventually, but I just yesterday spent my gun dollars for the month. (Picked up my new CZ 452 - paid for months ago, but been too busy to even pick it up - and put a nice Swift Premium 3X-9X 40mm {very nice for the price} on it, along with sling, hard case, etc. Now I've got to save my pennies for this centerfire. In the mean time, I'm asking all the questions to help with my decision that I can.)

Besides, just when I think I've got a choice picked out, I have another conversation (either in real time or on THR) that throws a serious wrench into my thinking.

Now I know why so many of you have so many guns: you can't make a decision about just one! :D

Thanks for continued opinions, advice & education, folks; I'm reading (even if very busy at work for the next couple of days)...

Nem

Sulaco
January 25, 2006, 10:10 PM
...Besides, just when I think I've got a choice picked out, I have another conversation (either in real time or on THR) that throws a serious wrench into my thinking.


I know what you mean. I am also in the market for a bolt action centerfire rifle right now. I have narrowed it down to either a CZ or a Remington. If I go CZ, I will get the 550 American. If I get the Remington, I am still up in the air on the model.

I really want to have faith in Remington's QC and buy American, but I just don't know. I have seen some rough stuff from them lately and my last 700 wouldn't group worth a darn. So I may end up with the CZ just based solely on performance and quality.

Which ones are you looking at now? Have you decided on a caliber or are you still debating the .308 and the 30-06? I am dead set on the ought 6.

DJJ
January 25, 2006, 11:33 PM
Not much left for me to add, except that between the Savage and Remington, based solely on the pictures and my own experience, I'd expect the Savage to have more recoil. Notice how the recoil pad of the Remington is flatter from heel to toe, but the Savage's looks more "dished out". The dishing makes for a sharper point at the toe, so if you shoot "toe in the pocket" (like I do), it'll be uncomfortable. I even prefer to round the toe of the pad some.

Nematocyst
January 26, 2006, 03:15 AM
Which ones are you looking at now? Have you decided on a caliber or are you still debating the .308 and the 30-06? I am dead set on the ought 6. I'm considering the following most closely, but can still be swayed: Remington 700 (especially fond of XCR); Savage 16FHSS; Tikka T3.

I like CZ a lot - just bought their 452 Style (.22LR, stainless with synthetic furniture) even though I've not had time to shoot it yet (just got it yesterday).
But, the CZ centerfire rifles don't come with stainless and synthetic stocks, so I'm not sure I'll go that route.

As for caliber, I'm obviously still waffling on that as well, as this thread demonstrates. Still in the running: .30-06, .308, & 7mm08. The latter obviously suffers from lack of bullet diversity (basically two, since I don't reload, at least not yet).

I started looking at it because it has a demonstrably lesser recoil in similar bullet weights, though most still argue that even that difference is negligible compared with .308 & .30-06.

I'm hearing that 7mm08 however, does have a flatter trajectory than .308 for similar bullets, but haven't investigated yet how .30-06 trajectories stack up to those two.

I'm betting now it'll be either .308 or .30-06.

Guess I'll just see which way the wind is blowing on the day I purchase.

Nem

Preacherman
January 26, 2006, 06:12 AM
Nem, bear in mind the practice ammo issue. If you're going to reload, this isn't a problem: but if you're going to shoot only factory ammo, the .308 has a decided advantage over the .30-'06, in that milsurp .308 is freely available, while .30-'06 milsurp is harder to find and its quality is often suspect.

Just a thought...

rangerruck
January 26, 2006, 06:30 AM
physics say the 30 06 if ALL other variable sof the rifles are equal.

Richard.Howe
January 26, 2006, 09:03 AM
who argues that .30-06 produces LESS felt recoil than does the .308

There are many threads about the interesting theories one hears at gun shops. If you really want to cut down on the recoil, then you need a 300 Win Mag -- the case is huge and the powder burns even slower than a 30-06. It feels just like shooting a .22. :D

.308 and .30-06 are ballistically similar. I have owned many rifles in both calibers and currently have only the .308s still "in stock." There's a great article in this month's Handloader magazine entitled something like "Why The 308 Is Great."

- .308 is a short action --> marginally smaller rifle.
- It also has a shorter span distance on the bolt that some say contributes to its higher accuracy in comparison to the 30-06.
- It is also the standard military round for standoff engagements and many great battle rifles will feed it.
- There is an abundance of surplus 308 ammo, cheap, and available for extended range sessions.
- The shorter 308 case burns less powder for the same velocity as the 30-06 in the sub-185gr bullet range. It's more consistent with modern efficiency theories ala "short and fat."

In addition, the 308 will still handle an enormous range of bullet weights. I have personally loaded as light at 110gr HPs up to 220gr MKs. From coyote to too-much-for-elk. Can you tell I love the 308? :)

30-06 is an awesome chambering. I just have my preferences. It is unlikely that any animal downrange of either would ever know the difference!

FWIW,
Rich

Richard.Howe
January 26, 2006, 09:14 AM
Re: your observation on availability of more factory loads in the 30-06:

308: Hornady TAP 110gr up to Rem 180gr SPs, and 200gr Black Hills MKs for targets; 78 loads listed at Midway

30-06: Federal 125gr. SP to Federal 220gr SP; 83 loads listed at Midway

I used 180 grain Accubonds for a recent elk hunt (albiet in a 300 winny custom mountain rifle). It would take a very special hunt for me to use anything heavier. Besides, today's premium bullets allow you to go a fuzz lighter and faster without sacrificing penetration due to bullet break-up.

FWIW!
Rich

rust collector
January 26, 2006, 10:11 AM
Rather than engage in endless theoretical conjecture, why not shoot them all and see which works best? Do you have some friends with similar guns? If you lived in central SD you could have a range day with my T3 lite stainless 308, and I think you would enjoy it even though it may move around a bit more than the other rifles because it's a bit lighter.

My first centerfires were Remingtons (700 in 6mm, 788s in 223 and 70-08) and they never disappointed me. I have also had good luck with a model 70 Win. I have no experience with Savages, but hear many good things about them and don't doubt one would do well for you.

Stock design is an art, and the most beautiful specimen in the world can take all the fun out of shooting (I loved everything about my Beretta onyx except shooting it:scrutiny: ) You owe to yourself to get some trigger time with your short list and get the one that works best for you.

Waffen
January 26, 2006, 11:37 AM
Waffen,

Why even bother to replace the trigger? Remington triggers can be excellent if they are adjusted properly. The triggers on my two Rem 700's (.308 VS and 30-06 SPS) are fantasic. The weight can be adjusted to just about whatever you want. They both have no overtravel and they break like a glass rod. Someone familiar with Rem triggers should do the adjustment though.


I am so fimiliar with Remington triggers at this point I could do one in my sleep, I have adjusted them enough times to know I can't get it to the pull weight I want and be safe. A few of my remingtons had better factory triggers than others, but still a factory remington trigger is a factory remington trigger. I don't think i've ever seen anyone at a match with a factory trigger. If you have ever shot a Shilen or a Jewell trigger the difference is night and day.

MCgunner
January 26, 2006, 11:47 AM
Even Savage triggers will go to about 3 lbs, which is what I like. Anything less and I can't feel the sear very well through a pair of neoprene gloves on a cold day in the stand. 3# is perfect for hunting triggers IMHO. If you shoot bench rest or match, buy a trigger. If you're a hunter, an adjustable STOCK trigger will work. My Remingtons and my Savage all break at a nice, crisp 3#.

rick_reno
January 26, 2006, 12:21 PM
30-06.

USSR
January 26, 2006, 12:35 PM
Obviously, with equal rifle weight and equal loads (same bullet weight and same velocity), the .30-06 will recoil more due to the increased charge weight to bring it up to the same velocity as the .308. Still, the difference in recoil is negligible and other factors in determining which rifle to get would be more germane.

Don

bowfin
January 26, 2006, 03:54 PM
The difference between felt recoil between a .308 and .30-06 is more influenced by loads and bullet weights, and even moreso by stock design, and weight of the gun than any differences in the two calibers.

In the end it is all a moot point, I don't think anyone could be blindfolded and handed identical bolt guns in .30-06 and .308 with comparative loads and tell the difference.

Well, since I am a new guy, I might as well make one of my opinions well known at the outset: "If you are a grown man in good health and can't handle the recoil of a standard .30-06, then you are holding it wrong or need more practice."

Schleprok62
January 26, 2006, 04:55 PM
Besides, just when I think I've got a choice picked out, I have another conversation (either in real time or on THR) that throws a serious wrench into my thinking.

Now I know why so many of you have so many guns: you can't make a decision about just one! :D

Thanks for continued opinions, advice & education, folks; I'm reading (even if very busy at work for the next couple of days)...

Nem


Simple answer: Quit asking questions and buy your rifle... :neener: You know what you want, so go get it... and be happy... you'll get used to the recoil in no time... :neener:

Nematocyst
January 26, 2006, 06:20 PM
Simple answer: Quit asking questions and buy your rifle... :neener: You know what you want, so go get it... and be happy... you'll get used to the recoil in no time... :neener: ;)

Ah, but we all do things differently, don't we? That's what makes life so interesting.

Some don't ask, just do.

Some don't do, just ask.

Then, there's those of us that like to ask a lot first,
then, when we feel - you know, down deep inside - that it's time,
then, we do.

I'm an order of magnitude closer to a better decision now, based in experience (of others with these rifles, and my own with rifles other than these & shotguns), grounded in reasonable ballistics, some physics, & even some biology (deer, elk, caribou, moose are among those biological systems mentioned).

I've been reminded of the availability of mil-surps for .308 that enhance practice (by being inexpensive and readily available).

I've been convinced that the recoil issue is not the priority with these two rounds. It's, instead, a question about the gun: it's weight, length, action (long v. short), stock design, stock fit ... and a host of other issues.

It's that Rem 700XCR is available only in .30-06, where as Tikka & Savage are available in both. Hmmm.

So, by asking questions, I've gained a whole bunch more answers, and led to finding answers to other questions, and so am a LOT closer to a decision now than before I started asking questions! Whew! :D

So, it's a good thing, Schleprok, that I didn't listen to you a few days ago, and quit asking questions. :neener:

And, no I don't "know" exactly what I want, and no, I'm not quite finished asking questions yet, and . But when I am, rest assured, I'll let you know. ;)

BTW, welcome to THR. You're gonna like it here. :)
_____

In the mean time, I'm busy at work, but taking breaks to read this forum. Thanks much for all the relevant new info posted since my last visit yesterday.

I'll continue to read, then over the weekend, put up a summary post to try to tie it all together. It's the least I can do to help others get to a decision more quickly than mine, even though the ride has been fantastic.

Yeeeeee haaaaaaa!

:D

OK, back to work.

Nem

Sulaco
January 26, 2006, 06:31 PM
Nem you're a riot. Don't give in to our pressure. I know I wouldn't. ;)

One other thing you may want to consider is quality control. I have had at least one Remington 700 recently that would not perform well and I have heard of a few others. I can't confirm any but my own though so take that as you will. I have also seen, in stores, some fairly rough finishing.

That being said, the Remington 700 fits me the best and that is followed closely by the CZ. If I go with the 700, I will be nervous until I am punching paper and pleased with the results. If I go CZ, I will expect nothing but great results from the get go.

Just my 2 cents.

Nematocyst
January 26, 2006, 06:33 PM
OK, back to work. Well, almost.

Couldn't help taking another look at the Savage 16HFSS & Tikka T3 lite stainless.

(Yes, I'm looking for stainless & synthetic. That much I know.)

I'm noticing that the only tech detail I don't fully understand (including whether it makes much difference) is 'rate of twist'.

Savage ROT is 1 in 10". Tikka is 11".

Anybody got a good quick explanation or a link to one?

(Yes, I'll search THR rifle forum later, but right now... back to work.

Yes, I really mean it this time. :D

:evil:

Nem

NMshooter
January 26, 2006, 09:07 PM
Get a .308 already!:neener:

What was the question again?:p

Oh, twist rate.

The faster the twist rate the longer the bullets you can stabilize. For the most part this means you can shoot heavier bullets out of a faster twist barrel. 1 in 10" is a faster twist than 1 in 11".

This becomes especially important if you are shooting 175 gr. Sierra MatchKings or some of the 190 gr. match stuff out there at long range.

Probably not what you need to worry about.;)

Schleprok62
January 26, 2006, 09:52 PM
;)

So, it's a good thing, Schleprok, that I didn't listen to you a few days ago, and quit asking questions. :neener:

And, no I don't "know" exactly what I want, and no, I'm not quite finished asking questions yet, and . But when I am, rest assured, I'll let you know. ;)

BTW, welcome to THR. You're gonna like it here. :)


Nem


Just for the record... I was being goofy... :what:

I'm somewhat in the process of researching the same sort of thing, but recoil is less of a factor with me... 7mm-08 for me... :cool:

now, Remington 700 SPS, Weatherby Vanguard, or Savage... (I can't stand that damned accutrigger though) :banghead:


And thanks for the warm welcome... :)

goon
January 26, 2006, 10:09 PM
There are a lot of factors at work when you feel recoil but I think that if you could have two identical rifles with one in '06 and one in .308, the '06 would smack you harder.
Just my opinion.

For the record, I have chosen .308. It is what my FAL shoots (OK, 7.62x51 is just a little different). I don't think that most anything you shoot at though will know the difference between any of the rounds you are considering. From my experience the recoil is pretty mild from a 7mm-08 (fired from a Browning BLR). It is not as mild as the 7.62x51 fired from a FAL though. Depending on the distances you are shooting, trajectory isn't likely to matter much.

cracked butt
January 26, 2006, 11:07 PM
I don't think anyone's mentioned it, but Remington makes a line of reduced, er I mean 'managed recoil' loads for several cartridges including the 30-06 that pretty much cut the recoil almost in half.

I have both .308s and 30-06s in fact several copies of the latter, if I had to pick one of the two cartridges, I'd go with the 30-06. Of course being a reloader greatly influences my decision.

tctlrld
January 27, 2006, 01:26 AM
I'd say it's very close, but certainly the .308 kicks a little bit more.

Any Cal.
January 27, 2006, 02:17 AM
I special ordered the Savage you are looking at last year without the Accu trigger. It is an '06 with scope. Once broken in, I got a nice 7/16 group w/ Hornady 180's, and some <1" groups with some powderpuff loads that were nothing special. The Savage is a lighter rifle, and the first thing I did was put a recoil pad on it. The only reason I opted for the '06 was because it would do a better job of stabilizing the heavier bullets. If I never planned on shooting over 180 g bullets, I would go for the .308 in a heartbeat. For what that is worth. I wanted the lighter weight, but wanted heavy bullets.

Nematocyst
January 27, 2006, 05:53 AM
Get a .308 already!:neener:Shooter,

1) why do you like the .308 more than 06?

2) how them green chiles?

Nem

scubie02
January 27, 2006, 10:46 AM
in all honesty, I can't really tell much difference between any of the cablibers in that range--270, 06, 3-08, etc. People will say things like "get a 25-06 for the tame recoil compared to an 06..."--me, can't tell much difference. Once you get above, say, a 243, any of them recoil enough that you have to expend more though not to flinch. Good hearing protection at the range helps alot with that, btw. And definitely some of the recoil pads on the newer guns like the limbsavers and decelerators do make a difference.

These two calibers are so close in performance etc, it would likely make no difference whatsoever to the average person, unless you are doing extreme range shooting, in which case the 06 has the advantage. (There is significant destabilization when a bullet goes subsonic, which will happen with the 08 before an 06 if handloaded to their fullest potential).

But I can almost guarantee a deer or something will never know the difference ;)

JShirley
January 27, 2006, 11:03 AM
"bone break sound" may have been the crack of the bullet breaking the sound barrier. I've heard this a few times when shooting, especially when the bullet changes angles.

N870, there's no bad choice, here. .30-06 is more versatile, and easier to find ammo everywhere. It's easier to find cheap surplus in .308.

Buy one, have fun.

John

NMshooter
January 28, 2006, 07:48 PM
The only advantage to .30'06 is if you reload, and then only if you are willing to push things a bit.

.308 is very versatile, and more common than any of the other rifle cartridges you have discussed. This means if you only shoot factory ammunition you have more choices in this caliber. The cheap surplus ammo factor helps too.

As for the chile, so much chile, so little time.:evil: Had some incredible red the other day, the gal who cooked it needs to open a restaurant.:D Look for Chimayo red chile, the distinctive taste is very good.

And whatever rifle you get, shoot it a bunch!:D

Nematocyst
January 29, 2006, 05:01 AM
As for the chile, so much chile, so little time.:evil: Had some incredible red the other day, the gal who cooked it needs to open a restaurant.:D Look for Chimayo red chile, the distinctive taste is very good. Ah, Chimayo. Yes, I remember Chimayo. That's where that little chapel is, just north of Santa Fe if I remember correctly, on the way up to Taos.

Ummmm... chile. Makes my mouth water. Dang it, man, you gonna make me visit there.

But back to rifles. Yes, indeed, I think you folks have just about got me talked into that .308. I visited my gun shop yesterday and handled various rifles in both .308 and .-06. I'm realizing that I like that short action of the .308 a lot. From what all have said, it seems really nice. Enough versatility in rounds for what I'm looking for. Don't need anything above 180 gr. (I'm not after moose or caribou, just mulies and black tail.)

Now all I've gotta do is decide on a rifle. Tikka's looking very fine. Remington may be out now since they don't do much in .308. ({dited to add: Oops, I was wrong. The Remington model 7 (http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_rifles/model_seven/model_seven_specs.asp) is available in .308 with a short barrel and stainless barrel. Hmmm. Nice.} Savage is still in the running, but that Tikka is getting most of my looks right now...

Nem

Nematocyst
January 29, 2006, 06:11 AM
Now all I've gotta do is decide on a rifle. Tikka's looking very fine.The Remington model 7 (http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_rifles/model_seven/model_seven_specs.asp) is available in .308 with a short barrel and stainless barrel. Hmmm. Nice. Relevant to that decision, here's a question.

When in the gun shop a few days ago, an ostensibly knowledgeable salesperson offered the following hypothesis. (Paraphrasing)

Consider the angle between these lines: straight down the barrel & that line formed by the back of the butt plate.

That is, sit the rifle on the butt plate; if the barrel points STRAIGHT up (at a right angle), then it demonstrates a 90* angle.

Hypothesis that was offered: rifles with that angle closer to 90* will result in less felt recoil. {Edited to clarify: not "less recoil", but less "felt recoil".}

Observation: the Tikka T3 (http://www.tikka.fi/) seems to be closer to that than the Remington Model 7 (http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_rifles/model_seven/model_seven.asp).

Opinions?

Nem

Meplat
January 29, 2006, 06:36 AM
Evening all.

Evenin'. :)

From at least three threads on THR,
I've gained the impression that .308 Win
has less felt recoil than .30-06.

All things being equal (rifle, bullet, powder, etc.) you are shoving the same size projectile out of the barrel at roughly 200 fps faster with the '06 than with the .308. Last time I checked, Newton's Laws hadn't been repealed (although in today's political climate, one can never be SURE.)

Thus, I've been considering buying my first centerfire rifle
in 20 years as a .308, or even a 7mm08.

Have both. 7mm-08 is wood stocked, .308 is composite, can't notice any real difference in FELT recoil. Suspect the stocking is the reason. Neither is onerous. Both, BTW, like to make Bambi lay down very nicely.

Yet today, while picking up my CZ 452 from my gun shop,
I engaged in a discussion about that .308 v .30-06 recoil issue
with an (ostensibly) knowledgeable riflemman, also a reloader,
who argues that .30-06 produces LESS felt recoil than does the .308.

The reason, he claims, has something to do with the way the powder burns,
such that the .308 hits all at once, whereas the .30-06 is more prolonged,
stretching the felt recoil out over a longer time, allowing one's body
to adjust, to move with the recoil.

That just isn't logical to me. Both rifles are of the same caliber, both burn the same powders - one just in smaller dosages.

As one who is looking to purchase the ideal do-everything rifle, I like the fact that the .30-06 has a MUCH greater range of bullet weights than .308 (and a FAR, FAR, GREATER range than the 7mm08).

Whoa, there. The .30-06 IS a .308 diameter caliber just like (oddly enough) the .308 is. The '06 DOES handle heavier bullets much better than the .308, but the same selection is available for both. The only bullet listed in the manuals for the .30-06 that is not listed for the .308 is the 220 grain slug, and quite frankly, if I need a 220 grain .30-06, I want more rifle. Just a personal thing there. Normally, a 220 grain bullet would be used for large bears, and I ain't hunting the big boys with a .30-06. (Lived in Alaska too long to want to do that).

And while bullet selection for the 7mm is not quite as broad, there are still plenty of entirely adequate bullets available for deer/black bear sized game for it to be entirely viable.

But - just to be clear - I'm NOT a recoil junky, and am willing to sacrifice bullet weight range for less recoil.

Both my kids love the 7mm-08, and I'v grown fond of it too. The .308's inherent accuracy is hard to argue with, though. Either is a fine deer caliber.
One of the kids is a petite little blue eyed blonde daughter, the other a strapping six foot red-head son. Neither find either the .308 or the 7mm-08 cumbersome to fire, but both gravitate towards the 7mm for some reason.

Advice welcomed and encouraged, especially that based in experience.

In my experience, none of the calibers you are considering are all that punishing in the recoil department. The worst I've ever dealt with in any of the three happened to be a .30-06 that was BRUTAL. Remington 700 ADL. Hard plastic buttplate and a stock that just DID NOT fit me. Wife's rifle. She loved it. Go figure. One of the lightest FELT recoil of the trio was also a .30-06 that I fully expected to knock the bejeebers out of me. Got it for a song, as the guy I bought it from got more like patterns than groups from it. Was one of those skelotonized Ruger SS models. After removing the stock, using the dremel to round out the flat ladder supports to free float the barrel and working up a load for it, had it shooting MOA, sold it back to him for a hundred dollars more than I gave him. Think in retrospect, I shoulda kept it. All in all though, on average, a .30-06 IS gonna belt you a bit harder than a .308. all other things being equal.

Nematocyst
January 29, 2006, 06:40 AM
Meplat,

Nice post, well-written. Good info. Thanks.

Still leaning towards .308.

Nem

Meplat
January 29, 2006, 07:05 AM
Meplat,

Nice post, well-written. Good info. Thanks.

Still leaning towards .308.

Nem

Don't think you can go wrong. Nice to have a decision one can't screw up on. I NEVER seem to run into those. lol

FWIW, both the 7mm-08 and .308 are Savages. Best damn rifle for the $$$ I've found yet. Triggers aren't the best in the world, but with sub-MOA groups, who can argue?

Richard.Howe
January 29, 2006, 09:59 AM
OK Nem, we're all rooting for you to poop or get off the pot! :D We love you and don't want you to have to go for one more day without your hyper-researched rifle.

I believe you ought to file for a second Ph.D. on the basis of how much you've thought and agonized over this dang deer getter.

Now you understand why all us gunnies have more than one rifle, because there is no single right answer!

Do I need a Browning 300 win mag, a model 94 30-30, a Sako 6.5x55, a Steyr 308, and a Winchester 308 long-range rifle? ...scratching head...

No! Any one of them would work as a single do-all gun. But none of them would be perfect. That's the beauty of multiple gun ownership.

So -- if you're like me and love to get the highest score in the class -- understand that it is impossible to make a "100" on this test. At best you will get a "90." You just need to pick what 10% you're willing to miss...for a 308, it's bears and moose. You gonna be hunting that anytime soon? :neener:

90/10 is way higher than average.

Rich

Preacherman
January 29, 2006, 01:11 PM
When in the gun shop a few days ago, an ostensibly knowledgeable salesperson offered the following hypothesis. (Paraphrasing)

Consider the angle between these lines: straight down the barrel & that line formed by the back of the butt plate.

That is, sit the rifle on the butt plate; if the barrel points STRAIGHT up (at a right angle), then it demonstrates a 90* angle.

Hypothesis that was offered: rifles with that angle closer to 90* will recoil less.

Great hypothesis, and sounds wonderful: but the human body doesn't have many 90 angles to it! So much depends on your own body: length of arm, weight distribution (and how much weight there is! :D ), shooting stance, etc. What is perfect, right from the factory, for one shooter may be ghastly for another shooter.

My own test for stock dimensions, angle, etc. is this: when I bring the rifle up, I put it to my face (cheek), not my shoulder. I get it to a point where the sights line up for me (whether iron or glass doesn't matter - getting a clear sight picture is what's important). When I have that, I slide the rifle back into my shoulder, making sure that I keep my sight picture. If more than half of the stock is sticking out above my shoulder, and thus won't help absorb recoil, this is not great. If half or more of the stock is against my shoulder, this is good. (Note that when firing, I may still find problems with cheek fit, etc: but as a quick-and-dirty test at a gunshop, this has worked for me.)

YMMV...

Nematocyst
January 29, 2006, 06:41 PM
OK Nem, we're all rooting for you to poop or get off the pot! :D We love you and don't want you to have to go for one more day without your hyper-researched rifle. LOL. :D

Ah, you folks are great. Thanks for your kind patience & advice in all this. Hope this thread will also be useful to others trying to make a decision.

Yeah, Rich, I'm gettin' close to a decision. (In fact, I've pretty much already made one, but I'm going to sit with it fer a spell to make sure it still feels right. :rolleyes: And I'm not going to tell you yet. You gotta wait. :neener:

Besides, like I've said elsewhere, this rifle purchase is still a ways off. I'm still a bit shy of the $ I need to get one. But that's OK, cause it's nice to be ahead of the game. That's the reason I started this conversation early: when the $ get here, I'll know which one to get. ;)
____

P'man, great suggestion about testing stock fit. Makes soooo much sense. I'll try it out early this week at the gun shop. Muchas gracias.

Nem

itgoesboom
January 30, 2006, 01:03 AM
LOL. :D
Besides, like I've said elsewhere, this rifle purchase is still a ways off. I'm still a bit shy of the $ I need to get one. But that's OK, cause it's nice to be ahead of the game. That's the reason I started this conversation early: when the $ get here, I'll know which one to get. ;)

Nem

Don't wait too long. Hunting season here in Oregon will be here before you know it.

Spring Bear starts April 15th, and there are controlled Elk hunts as early as August.

I.G.B.

Nematocyst
January 30, 2006, 03:18 AM
Don't wait too long. Hunting season here in Oregon will be here before you know it. Oh, don't worry, IGB. I'm planning on having that puppy before summer. I won't do bear - more interested in deer in autumn. But plan to have it for lots of range practice during summer before bambi & her beau start trampling fall foliage.

;)

Nem

itgoesboom
January 30, 2006, 03:57 AM
Oh, don't worry, IGB. I'm planning on having that puppy before summer. I won't do bear - more interested in deer in autumn. But plan to have it for lots of range practice during summer before bambi & her beau start trampling fall foliage.

;)

Nem

Um, I thought that Bambi, and I mean the deer here, not the stripper, was a buck?

Saw a great bumper sticker the other day. "Bambi makes cute sandwiches" :evil:

http://www.bumperart.com/ProductImages/2005091002_Display-35.gif

I.G.B.

Nematocyst
January 30, 2006, 04:17 AM
Um, I thought that Bambi, and I mean the deer here, not the stripper, was a buck? LOL. Shows you what I know.

Never saw the animated movie. Just always assumed that with a name like "Bambi", it must have been a doe.

Nem

Meplat
January 30, 2006, 10:51 AM
LOL. Shows you what I know.

Never saw the animated movie. Just always assumed that with a name like "Bambi", it must have been a doe.

Nem


Down thisaway, it don't really matter. No more "ground checking". Dang things have gotten so thick (season of some sort or other starts in early Oc tober and runs through the last day of January) that does are legal as bucks on private property. Ony thing not fair game is bucks under four points. Ever tried to eyeball a slick for a NUTSACK?

This old phart never dreamed he'd live to see THAT day.

It's getting to the point that a man can't grow a garden or ride his motorcycle for them. Live in a neighborhood of five acre yards, so houses are too close to shoot them, even with a shotgun and buckshot. Danged dogs are even too used to 'em to harrass them. I'm left with the last resort, so if you ever drive by my house and see someone on the roof with a bow and an evil grimace, you'll know they stole ONE PEAR TOO MANY.

Father Knows Best
January 30, 2006, 11:01 AM
It's getting to the point that a man can't grow a garden or ride his motorcycle for them. Live in a neighborhood of five acre yards, so houses are too close to shoot them, even with a shotgun and buckshot. Danged dogs are even too used to 'em to harrass them. I'm left with the last resort, so if you ever drive by my house and see someone on the roof with a bow and an evil grimace, you'll know they stole ONE PEAR TOO MANY.

Where in Dixie are you, Meplat? It sounds like you're describing my neighborhood, and we don't have 5 acre yards (mine is only 1/3 acre). We're surrounded by farmland and woods, though, so the deer are thicker than the skeeters.

Besides deer, we've got a LOT of coyotes. Saturday afternoon, my son and I spotted one standing on a little rise just about 20 feet from a busy road, casually watching the traffic pass by. He was calm as could be -- acting like he owned the place (which he probably does, now that I think about it). He was a big'un, too, for a coyote. I figure he had to be at least 40 pounds, and may well have been over 50.

Meplat
January 30, 2006, 12:06 PM
Where in Dixie are you, Meplat?

Just a bit nawth of Louisianna Bayou country. :)

It sounds like you're describing my neighborhood, and we don't have 5 acre yards (mine is only 1/3 acre). We're surrounded by farmland and woods, though, so the deer are thicker than the skeeters.

Most of the lots here have "wood breaks" for privacy. Can do that in a place where an acre sets you back AT LEAST a thousand dollars (800 if you buy in bulk). lol These wood breaks are slap full of deer. Most mornings I can walk out at see the same seven little suckers eating my blueberry bushes. On one extended vacation due to a heart attack, I decided to run them off. Broad daylight, white tee-shirt, two in the afternoon - they ignored me yelling at them to leave until I was about thirty yards away, and then calmly walked back into the woods. Since I was only a couple of weeks out from a massive coronary, I didn't bother to carry a bow to negotiate with 'em...hell, could barely walk that far....so they are still harrassing my fruit trees.

Besides deer, we've got a LOT of coyotes. Saturday afternoon, my son and I spotted one standing on a little rise just about 20 feet from a busy road, casually watching the traffic pass by. He was calm as could be -- acting like he owned the place (which he probably does, now that I think about it). He was a big'un, too, for a coyote. I figure he had to be at least 40 pounds, and may well have been over 50.

50 pounds? Dayum! Maybe a hybrid cross with a domestic dog? Does happen.

Nematocyst
January 30, 2006, 06:16 PM
Well, dadgummit. Just when I thought I'd made a final decision (for .308), along comes new information. (No wonder I'm beating this dead horse ...)

In another thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=172790) I started on .270 (back in the day when I was considering that caliber...no longer am...), I just read the following post (excerpted here, along with a slightly edited version of my response in that thread):

The 7mm express as it was labled 20 years ago or longer or better known as the .280 is an excellent choice especially for the recoil sensetive as it is down loaded from the factory to be safely fired in the auto loaders for which it was first chambered. Shoots easy. Can be hot rodded if handloaded. OK, that post and a couple of others that I've read in the last few hours have opened another can of worms for me.

I'm trying to make a decision between .308 and 7mm08.

The main reason I've been leaning hard towards .308 in recent days is that - even though I like the fact that the 7mm08 has flatter trajectories and less recoil than .308 (even if marginally) - for factory loads (I don't reload...yet), the .308 has a significantly wider range of loads than the 7mm08. (125-180 gr. v. 120-140 gr)

But now I'm realizing - or I think this is correct (based on GeoW's comment AND a note on the Remington ammunition ballistics pages) that the 280 "express" are identical to 7mm08.

Now, I'm a bit unclear: is the 7mm08 the "same" as 7mm Express? That is, is "express" the name of a type of Remington ammunition that can be shot in any gun, or is there a different type of caliber out there? I suspect the former.

And if .280 & 7mm08 are identical in the sense that their ammo is interchangable (at least with express rnds???), then that significantly increases the range of rounds available for a 7mm08 to at least 165 gr in the .280.

Am I onto something, or just a nut job?

(Well, OK, definitely a nut job, but that's beside the point... ;)

Thanks for any clarifications.

Nem

{Edited hours later to add: GeoW responded thusly (see below) in the other thread. Makes sense to me. If anyone disagrees, chime in, otherwise, disregard my question. I'm probably back to .308 again. :rolleyes:

See if I can sort this out. .280 Remington = 7MM Remington Express =7MM-06, wich is the oldest name for the cartridge born from a wildcat of the same name. All three of these are the same, identical, based on the 30-06 parent case.

The 7MM-08 Rem is a necked down .308 Win. Has no other name unless maybe a few monikers hanged on it before standardization. It's a darned fine round but not to be confused or interchanged with those listed above.

Meplat
January 30, 2006, 10:01 PM
But now I'm realizing - or I think this is correct (based on GeoW's comment AND a note on the Remington ammunition ballistics pages) that the 280 "express" are identical to 7mm08.

Most DEFINITELY NOT identical in ballistics. The 7mm-08 with a 154 grain bullet has a maximum load which acheives 2500 fps, while the same bullet can be propelled from the .280 at 2900 fps under maximum load. That's a 14% difference in velocity for a given bullet weight, which is quite a lot.

Now, I'm a bit unclear: is the 7mm08 the "same" as 7mm Express? That is, is "express" the name of a type of Remington ammunition that can be shot in any gun, or is there a different type of caliber out there? I suspect the former.

Don't even THINK of loading a 7mm-08 round into a .280 Remington chambering. The 7mm-08 is based on a necked down .308 case (as is the .243 Win.) The .280 Remington is based on a necked down .30-06 case. Should you be unfortunate enough for the firing pin to strike the primer hard enough to cause ignition, then you are going to be in GRAVE danger. Repeat: the .280 Remington (aka 7mm Remington Exress) and the 7mm-08 are NOT the same cartridge.

And if .280 & 7mm08 are identical in the sense that their ammo is interchangable (at least with express rnds???), then that significantly increases the range of rounds available for a 7mm08 to at least 165 gr in the .280.

Am I onto something, or just a nut job?

Nah....a nut job would have never started a thread this fun. :p

Nem

{Edited hours later to add: GeoW responded thusly (see below) in the other thread. Makes sense to me. If anyone disagrees, chime in, otherwise, disregard my question. I'm probably back to .308 again. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Dunno who's worse - you and your questions, or me and not reading your entire post. :neener:

itgoesboom
January 31, 2006, 12:56 AM
Nem,

Of the choices so far, I would stick with the .308, if you aren't going with the .30-06.

Maybe I am weird, odd, or just not very "cultivated" when it comes to rifle calibers, but I like very standard cartridges.

Calibers that have been around for years, can be found in almost any town, and just plain work.

Recoil with the .308 and .30-06 really isn't bad, even when you shoot from the bench. And that is from someone who really doesn't enjoy recoil.

I.G.B.

Schleprok62
February 1, 2006, 04:35 PM
Just to give a visual...

7mm-08 Rem
http://www.ponyxprss.com/pics/7mm-08.bmp

.280 Rem (a.k.a. 7mm Remington Express)
http://www.ponyxprss.com/pics/280rem.bmp


Disclaimer:
The photo's are not to scale... but good enough to see the differences...

steelhead
February 1, 2006, 04:59 PM
Nematocyst-870,

You need to forget about firearms for awhile and seriously look into getting yourself a girlfriend:D . You're cracking me up with all the fine hairs you are splitting.

Here's what you need to do. Buy yourself a Savage 11F or Stevens 200 in .308 or 7mm-08. Then, for another $45 -$70, buy yourself a "take off" Savage/Stevens factory barrel in .243 Win.. Then swap barrels if you find the recoil too much in the original caliber. The Savage actions are extremely easy for the "home gunsmith" to swap out barrels. All you need is a vice, barrel nut wrench, and headspace gauges. By doing this, you can chamber any round based on the .308 (358 Win., 338 Federal (338-08), 260 Remington, 7MM-08, .308, .243, etc.) without having to change the bolt head or make any other mod's other than the easy barrel switch.

Pull the trigger and GitRdone.

Nematocyst
February 1, 2006, 05:47 PM
Nematocyst-870,

You need to forget about firearms for awhile and seriously look into getting yourself a girlfriend:D :D

Well, I see you're in my neck o' the woods, so if you know of any 'girl gunners', ask them to be in touch and we'll see where it goes. ;)

You're cracking me up with all the fine hairs you are splitting. :) This has actually become more for me than just buying a gun that will work for my needs. It's become an interesting and enjoyable (from my perspective, even though I think it bothers others) learning experience. I can't tell you how much cool stuff I've learned about .30-06, .308, .270, 7mm08 & .243 in the last couple of months in this and other threads. If I hadn't asked such hair-splitting questions, I'd not have gained this much knowledge so quickly.

You have to try to understand this from my perspective as a scientist who teaches systems theory for a living. In systems theory, those "hairs", or even split hairs, can make a HUGE difference in outcome. It's the old "straw that broke the camel's back" phenomenon.

And like I've said before, I'd much rather split hairs to see what's inside now than after I've paid $600 for a gun & significant range time, then having to try to decide what next.

Still, your suggestion about the Savage IS a good one. Make no mistake.

The problem for me is, I've handled several Savages, including the one that I'd buy if I'm going Savage (16FHSS; regardless of caliber, I want SS & synth furniture; that much I know for sure). Even though they're clearly good guns, they don't feel right for me. In particular, I don't like the feeling of the fore end. The Tikka & Remington's have a much more natural feeling when I pick them up, aim, etc. My hand fits it better, says, "yeah, this feels right", just like the first time I picked up my Kahr K9. {Edited to add: specifically, the Savage has a larger, more "blocky" fore end, where as the Tikka (especially) has a smaller diameter, more cylindrical fore end that I find works better with my smaller hands, offers a better, more ergonomic [for me] grip.}

Then again, maybe I'm splitting hairs about the importance of fit & feeling.

(NOT). ;)

Nem

Preacherman
February 1, 2006, 06:50 PM
the one that I'd buy if I'm going Savage

Is this similar to "going Postal"?

:evil: :D :neener:

Nematocyst
February 1, 2006, 07:01 PM
"the one that I'd buy if I'm going Savage"

Is this similar to "going Postal"?

:evil: :D :neener: <first confusion, then LOL when I got it, followed by significant chuckling>

Yeah, somethin' like that. :)

Nematocyst
February 1, 2006, 07:16 PM
BTW, P'man, I tried out your suggested 'stock fit test' at the gun store yesterday. Worked great. All the rifles I'm looking at - Tikka, Rem 700 & Savage - 'passed the test' (with appropriate recognition that was just a preliminary test, and that the more thorough one comes with shooting).

The only rifle I'd like also to try that I haven't found yet is a Remington M7. I don't think I'm going to go with a 20" barrel, but would like to try one just for grins.

steelhead
February 1, 2006, 07:22 PM
Personal fit/ergonomics is extremely important. If you don't like the feel of the Savage then move on. Stocks, however, can easily be replaced and I would anyways if I got the Savage syn stock.

Asking and learning is good. However, you only have theoretical knowledge (based on proffered subjective experiences) at this point. Eventually, you need to go out and "do".

You won't find an answer until you start with a personal benchmark and base of personal experience. You say you currently like the feel of the Tikka and the Remington. This is based on "you" actually feeling how they felt in your hand. Others may disagree but this is how "you" feel about it from actual personal experience. However, on the other hand, it may turn out you don't like the way they shoot after you dropped $600+. There are no absolutes.

"And like I've said before, I'd much rather split hairs to see what's inside now than after I've paid $600 for a gun & significant range time, then having to try to decide what next."

You are misguided if you think you can prevent that from happening. Heck, I've bought multiple copies of the same firearm - only to find out that some shot great while others had serious issues. If you think you can cover all the variables (on the internet), and then buy the perfect rifle, you are sorely mistaken. Not a flame - just reality.

It's obvious you are new to shooting and don't have much experience with firearms. That's cool and I am not flaming you. We all started at exactly the same point (JMB excluded:) ). But take some advice from someone who is a little older and BTDT. You need to either purchase a used firearm (so the financial impact isn't so great that you can not purchase another) or join a club and shoot other people's rifles.

Your posts don't bother me other than, at this point, I think you are spinning your wheels.

How far are you from Portland? If you are close, I might be able to help you with the "shooting other people's guns" part.

As for girls, I've been married too long to help out in that arena. Just imagine a dog, locked behind a screen door, looking out into the neighborhood:D .

Nematocyst
February 1, 2006, 08:22 PM
Asking and learning is good. However, you only have theoretical knowledge (based on proffered subjective experiences) at this point. Eventually, you need to go out and "do". Hey, Steelhead, thanks for your thoughts. I don't disagree substantially with what you wrote, only slightly.

I've been doing my homework on this gun for a couple of months now. In fact, I started reading and asking questions about the calibers of interest before I even picked a gun up. I wanted a certain level of knowledge before entering my gun store to look and ask questions.

After lots and lots of reading & Q&A, I've now seriously started to look, feel, ask some final questions.

My next step - planned for quite sometime now, not original with your suggestion (but thanks for offering it anyway), is to spend some time at the range with my other guns (870P, SW 642, K9, CZ 452 - all relatively new) and keep my eyes out for a Tikka, Rem 700 and/or Savage in calibers of interest. I'm quite sure that some of the nice folks out at my range will let me fire off one or two.

Plus, one of the guys at my gun shop has made it clear that he'd be willing to take me out to the range to shoot a few *once I could narrow the choices a bit* in terms of brands & calibers. That's what I've been doing, gaining this 'theoretical' knowledge. Regardless of any protestations from others, I'm perfectly happy with the process by which I've gotten this far. Not being obstinate, just speaking my truth.

As for being "new to shooting and don't have much experience with firearms", that's not accurate. I grew up with guns, mostly .22, shotgun, an 1865 Springfield in .58,& a Marlin 336 in .35 caliber. I've owned at least one gun almost continuously since I was 9. (I'm now 55.) {There was one ten month period during doctoral studies, while trying to exist below the poverty line, when I was gunless. A guy trying to break into my studio ended that gunless phase permanently.)

What I'm new to is bolt action, and how 7mm & .30-06 relate to my more familiar ground of the .35 (and .30-30 that I had some experience with).

You are misguided if you think you can prevent that from happening. Heck, I've bought multiple copies of the same firearm - only to find out that some shot great while others had serious issues. If you think you can cover all the variables (on the internet), and then buy the perfect rifle, you are sorely mistaken. Not a flame - just reality. Again, we agree. I have never had any illusions about making a perfect decision. Life doesn't work that way, as we all know.

However, having been just the opposite as a kid - making snap decisions without thinking things through - I've finally arrived at a system that works well for me, informed by the way I did my doctoral dissertation in ecology: pay attention to details. The devil is in the details. One may fail regardless, but by paying attention to the details, one significantly lowers the probability of failure. I've found this to be true in starting my business, rock climbing (e.g., the detail of tying in your belay), and buying guns (vehicles, professional sound systems, computers...).

I've used exactly the same process (see multiple THR threads by me in shotguns, handguns, revolvers, holsters, & (.22) rifles} in buying my other current set of guns (see above), and I haven't made a bad decision yet. I love them all, with no complaints. Can't say the same will happen with this rifle, but it's a testable hypothesis. And, as I said before, I've thoroughly enjoyed the process. It's been an education in itself. As a professional, independent educator, learning is what drives me. The process is at least as important as the outcome, and the latter will benefit from the former.

So, again, thanks - sincerely - for your advice, but excuse me while I continue to do things my way, at my pace. ;)

As for girls, I've been married too long to help out in that arena. Just imagine a dog, locked behind a screen door, looking out into the neighborhood. Oh, I feel your pain.

Yeah, being single has it's downsides, but my screen door (and gate) is always open, and I'm wearing no chain. Wolf, wolf. :evil:

Nem

NMshooter
February 1, 2006, 08:35 PM
Learned a lot through the empirical process myself.

After years and years of shooting, dozens of rifles, and a hill sized pile of ammo, I have learned a little, and had a lot of fun doing it.

We will not discuss the cost of this process, you just do not want to know...;) :uhoh:

Please keep in mind that bolt action rifles are very easy to customize, you can even get your choice of adjustable stocks, though they tend to be a bit heavier and much more expensive.

If I were looking for something similar to what you seem to be looking for, and I had someone else's money:D I would get a Kimber rifle. They make a very nice lightweight sporter in several of the calibers you mentioned. Far more money than you intend to spend.

Consider what action you would be the happiest with, get that rifle, and change things as needed. As you shoot more you may end up changing the rifle to suit you in ways you are not considering right now.

And sometimes the trip is at least as much fun as the destination.;)

Nematocyst
February 1, 2006, 08:43 PM
If I were looking for something similar to what you seem to be looking for, and I had someone else's money:D I would get a Kimber rifle. They make a very nice lightweight sporter in several of the calibers you mentioned. Far more money than you intend to spend. Dude, I heard that.

Looked ...no, lusted at them again last night on line.

Same for Sako's. <sigh>

Someday, maybe, when I become rich and famous as a systems science teacher. :D

Nem

steelhead
February 1, 2006, 08:52 PM
Cheers and tight groups!

PS: Go Seahawks!!!

Nematocyst
February 1, 2006, 10:21 PM
Cheers and tight groups!

PS: Go Seahawks!!!Ditto to both (tight groups & Seahawks). :D

I may actually stay home from the range and watch that game. Even though I'm not much of a football fan, this is the creme de la creme.

Nem

itgoesboom
February 2, 2006, 12:49 AM
Well Nem,

I don't have any of the rifles that you are thinking about, but if you wanted to take some shots through a .30-06 Weatherby Vanguard, I can offer that up.

Oh, and I **might**, just know a girl. Former teacher, about that age....might be tough to set up though. Mothers in Laws are like that. ;)

I.G.B.

Nematocyst
February 2, 2006, 03:28 AM
I don't have any of the rifles that you are thinking about, but if you wanted to take some shots through a .30-06 Weatherby Vanguard, I can offer that up. Thanks, IGB. And to Steelhead, also, for offering to set me up for some shooting.

Steelhead, I forgot to address that earlier. I'm two hours from Portland. If I can't arrange it here, via my gun shop, I may take you up on your offer.

IGB, where are you? In Oregon? PM is ok.

Oh, and I **might**, just know a girl. Former teacher, about that age....might be tough to set up though. Mothers in Laws are like that. ;) Well, you know us guys. We like younger 'girls'. I'm still looking for a 40-something.

Yeah, yeah, I know: good luck. :rolleyes:

Nem

Nematocyst
February 2, 2006, 06:18 AM
Please keep in mind that bolt action rifles are very easy to customize, you can even get your choice of adjustable stocks, though they tend to be a bit heavier and much more expensive. After rereading, I realized that heavy could be a good thing.

Expensive I can deal with. (I drive a diesel Ford. I own a quality professional sound system.
I live in America, which has some of the most expensive medical care on Earth.)

But heavy could be good.

If da rifle kicks too hard, put a heavier stock on it to slow down ze recoil.

No?

Nem

Sulaco
February 2, 2006, 04:04 PM
If you have it narrowed down to .308 and are now deciding between the Remington 700 and the Tikka T3, I say go with the Remington.

I have owned both and prefer the Remington for a few reasons;

The Tikka, while lighter, is also harder to hold steady and has more felt recoil in a given chambering when compared to the 700.

The Tikka, while inexpensive up front (sortof), gets quite expensive the first time you have to buy scope mounts, extra magazines, stock spacers, etc. And now that Beretta owns Tikka, it is even harder to get parts in the first place. I am also not real sure what will happen with them in the future.

The Tikka bolt shroud is pretty cheap plastic which is easily damaged with strong solvents (Butch's Bore Shine muffed mine up pretty good).

The Remington is a perfect fit for me. I like the longer and straighter pistol grip and the flat butt pad.

Also, Remington parts and accessories, both OEM and aftermarket are like buying parts for a small block Chevy, everybody and their brother makes and carries them. And any gunsmith worth his salt knows a Remington 700 action backwards and forwards.

Just my opinion and probably why my new bolt action 30-06 will be a 700.

Of course, Remington seems to be out of the .308 game now so good luck!

Nematocyst
February 2, 2006, 07:23 PM
Of course, Remington seems to be out of the .308 game now so good luck! Saluco, some excellent points there. Thanks as always.

Your very valid last sentence is one of several reasons that my .308 decision has been called into question ... again.

(I can hear gnashing of teeth among some thread members; "Just buy a damn gun! Quit thinking about it!!!!:cuss: ;)

Busy day; back to work with me.

Nem

Schleprok62
February 3, 2006, 01:36 PM
Nem,

Which 700 model did you decide on again? ( I don't feel like rereading the entire thread... LOL )

The 7mm-08 is gaining in popularity (at least here in Oklahoma - according to several of the gun dealers here - they can't seem to keep 7mm-08's in stock) so ammo choices and availability is likely to increase in the coming months. Recoil should be in the same ballpark as the 30-30...

I'm looking at the 700 SPS in 7mm-08 for myself as a hunting rifle, and the Stevens 200 for a modifyable range rifle... haven't decided on chamber yet, probably .270 Win and swap to a .280 Rem barrel which should make for minimal other mods to make it work. :neener: Then from there, upgraded trigger assy., replace stock, etc... no particular order, just as money permits...

Nematocyst
February 4, 2006, 06:58 PM
Nem,

Which 700 model did you decide on again? ( I don't feel like rereading the entire thread... LOL ) Schleprok & I have had a very interesting PM discussion about this topic in the last couple of days. I've answered his question above, but just to be complete, I'll do it here as well.

Of the Remingtons, I'm most interested in the 700 SPS, like you.

In fact, I even got to handle one yesterday at GI Joe's. They've got a Rem 700 SPS in .270 set up with a Leupold VX-I scope for $725.

The rifle felt very nice. It's right up there with Tikka in terms of the way it feels to me, plus it's already got that R3 pad installed.

Schleprok & I have been discussing the virtues of .270 v. 7mm-08 for a few days, based mostly on comparison of those calibers (and others more in line with the title of this thread), on the Remington Ballistics page (http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/).

Very interesting reading. Very interesting indeed.

As a result, I'm leaning back in the direction pointing away from both .308 & .30-06 again. I don't discount that they're great cartridges, but once again, I don't think they're what I'm looking for in my first centerfire bolt rifle.

Nem

Infidel
February 4, 2006, 07:39 PM
T Well, you know us guys. We like younger 'girls'. I'm still looking for a 40-something.
Yeah, me, too. About 19 years old.

Nematocyst
February 6, 2006, 12:20 AM
Thread here (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=181213).

Thanks for all your help.

Nem

BigFatKen
February 13, 2006, 05:25 PM
I have seen more wasted "ink" on this thread than most others. Sometimes I think a person puts up a question like "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" I even fell for it myself with the ejecta story. If one rifle has 3% more recoil (the 30-06 in my example, but the velocities must remain the same; -06 had shorter barrel), does it really make a diffenence?

I can really tell when my semiauto 12 ga has fired its last round and it's not because the gun weighs one shell less or about 2 oz. The gas feature really does change felt recoil.

Nematocyst
February 13, 2006, 05:42 PM
I have seen more wasted "ink" on this thread than most others. BFK, no I didn't start this thread as a joke. I asked my question in earnest with an intention of exploring both the practical and theortetical (ballistic) differences between the two (and other) calibers.

Please understand that I'm new to these calibers. I had a .35 cal once in lever action, but never even shot a .30-06 or .308. Other than my shotguns, that was the most powerful round I'd ever shot.

If you found this thread to be wasted energy, then that's going to have to be your issue. It's clear that you know the answer.

But again, I'll say this as I've said it before:

1) Just because the difference between guns & rnds in ounces, ft-lbs, & velocities doesn't make a difference to you doesn't mean that it won't to others. Disagree? Fine. We'll just agree to disagree.

2) One answer to the question was, "no there is no difference". Indeed, that's bascially the one that I took away from it.

For me, in the end, there were other reasons that I decided not to choose either .30-06 or .308 for my rifle, but to go with 7mm08. But that's another story.

I like details because I know - personally, professionally & intellectually (given my background in systems theory and nonlinear dynamics) - that tiny differences between systems can and DO (often, even if not always) make a huge difference in system performance.

I often run into the "how many angels on the head of a pin" as a counter-argument when reading analyses of various things. It seems that metaphor extends from a day when the world was thought - erroneously - to yield to linear analysis, where changes in input yielded proportional changes in output.

But we live in a nonlinear world, where little changes do not necessarily cause a concommitent small change in performance. I expect no difference in firearms.

Just for the record, I'm on THR to learn, not to taunt with joke questions. If I post a "joke thread" or "joke post" (as in gun humor), you'll know it is a 'joke' in no uncertain terms.

Be well,

Nem

KIDGLOCK
February 13, 2006, 05:59 PM
Learn to shoot and recoil wont be a problem. Its all in the head. If you think you dont like it or cant do it you wont be able to do it :what: This is not a mean statement just a fact. Shooting is not Theory or Nonlinear dynamics. Its fun!!!!! Go split the atom else where not at the range.My m1 garand has less felt recoil tham my m1a '06 v 308 , both hurt more on the receving end.

Jaywalker
February 3, 2009, 09:12 AM
Interesting thread - particularly as I myself am prone to "paralysis by analysis." Go back to Preacherman's Principles on the first page, as they're still valid. All else being equal, a 7mm-08 will feel less painful than a 308, which will feel better than a 30-06. It's the "all else being equal" that's hard to duplicate.

Regarding stock fit, writer John Barsness has articulated a hypothesis regarding "stock fit" by body type. He believes that short-necked people with square shoulders (most men fall into this body type) benefit from a straighter stock, while long-necked people with sloping shoulders (most women...) benefit from a higher comb. As a long-necked, sloped shoulder man, I've benefitted from his guidance. Before learning that I stuck mostly with straight stocks that I found more visually appealing, but now I find the montecarlo combs actually fit me better. (Still think straight stocks are prettier, though...)

Personally, I have no use for the 30-06. (Flame suit - ON) It's at the upper end of recoil that an occasional shooter can handle (yes, I know, "Learn to shoot.") Yes, you can buy ammunition in any yurt you happen to track past. Yes, it's plenty accurate. And yes, it's effective against most anything on earth. It's this last point that bothers me - why do I need something that could be (and has been) used on Cape Buffalo when all I'm shooting is a whitetail or a mule deer? I just wonder how many kids were started out by their fathers with a "real rifle" in 30-06 that truly beat the snot out of them, then gave up hunting for life. (It was easier when the 30-30 was the gold standard.)

I'm sympathetic with the need to stay with readily-availble factory ammo. From what I've seen, the 7mm-08 is getting pretty close to "standard," recently. The 243 Winchester is already "standard," both in rifles and ammunition stocks, and will kill deer really dead, really quickly. If I'd started there instead of with a 30-06, I'd have got a lot more practice that didn't involve losing a flinch.

Tall Pine
October 24, 2009, 12:41 AM
Nema-many years later...do you still like the 7mm08?

Do you mind giving me a quick recap on the info you gleaned? Specifically, whats the max effective range of the 7mm08? And is the recoil a lot less than a 308/30-06, just a little less, or somewhere in between? (based on what you researched/gleaned).

Thanks to Nema for asking all the million questions, and for all those that stuck it out and answered. I swear I was laughing at the end when several where writing "just buy one already". Classic stuff.

Thanks

Nematocyst
October 24, 2009, 01:13 AM
Interesting to see this thread still alive after several years of hibernation.

Pine, I'll have to defer to others to answer your questions about recoil and range of the 7mm. Shortly after engaging this thread, I decided to buy one of those ancient pieces of technology - a .30-30 in a Marlin 336 (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=258000) - instead of a 7mm08. My reasoning had to do as much with where I live (very near the Pacific Ocean on the western side of the Cascades, in rain forest, where shots are not long).

But if I buy a bolt gun for use in the big sky country to the east of here, it'll be a 7mm08. I learned enough about that caliber to know that's the one for me in open country where longer shots on mulies, white tail or antelope are called for. It's got lower recoil than .308, can be reloaded in a wide range of bullet sizes (110 to 180 if I remember correctly, even though factory loads are mostly 120 and 140), is a very flat shooter, is a short action (unlike .30-06), and is available in a bunch of fine rifles.

I still have no interest in .30-06.

But my next purchase will likely be an AR ... for other reasons. ;)

Tall Pine
October 24, 2009, 02:06 AM
Thats hilarious, you went with yet a different round. Cant you just see all the eyes rolling? :p

You and I are a lot alike I think....research things to death and then do it again just to be sure. I enjoy it almost as much as the owning part. You learn so much and really get to know what you end up with.

You will love the Marlin 30/30. A grand ole rifle that will always be capable for its intended use. Dont they make a pointed tip bullet (plastic tip maybe) that you dont have to worry about accidental discharge in the mag tube, making for "ballistic effiiciency" in the air?

On an aside, look into a Colt 6920LE for the AR. Got one and love it. Researched it to death and that was what we felt was the best pick. Feel free to PM me or ask any Q's on that subject.

Nematocyst
October 24, 2009, 02:21 AM
Pine,

Yes, eyes are rolling. I'll deal with it. :rolleyes:

I'm an academic science type, so "researching" the literature before making a move is part of my fiber.
It's fun, informative; I learned a huge amount in this thread. No regrets.
And, I hope this thread helps others with a similar question.

I suspect eventually, if I live long enough, I'll own a 7mm.

But for now, the .30-30 demands my attention. I'm having it cut down to a 17.5" barrel
as soon as my cash flow improves, and putting a good set of peeps on it.
I truly love the rifle.

Thanks for the advice on the Colt AR. Based on research I've done for a while,
I think I've already decided that one as well, but still open to advice.

Redneck with a 40
October 24, 2009, 11:42 AM
For me, the .308 is all the recoil I want to endure for regular target shooting. I'm not sure what .308 recoil is like in a 7.5 lb hunting rifle, but in my Remmy 700 SPS Tac, .308 heavy barrel, about 10 lbs with bipod and scope, its downright comfortable, not bad at all. I can shoot 40 rounds out of this thing and still be doing fine, no sore shoulder. I can load 125's to 180's and kill any medium to big game in the lower 48.

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