[rick_reno]

Well, I'm glad this is finally explained. I know President Bush has a plan to deal with the border problem - what worriesme is it appears to be the same plan that Senator Kennedy has. Why do they think alike?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11021314/

MEXICO CITY - Mexico insisted Wednesday that men in Mexican military-style uniforms who crossed the Rio Grande River and sparked an armed confrontation with Texas law officers earlier this week were drug smugglers, not Mexican soldiers.

Mexico’s presidential spokesman Ruben Aguilar said the FBI supported that view, but he gave no evidence of the claim.

“These were not Mexican soldiers,” Aguilar said at a news conference. “It is known that these are drug traffickers using military uniforms and they were not even regulation military uniforms.”

Texas law enforcement officials confronted armed traffickers near the Rio Grande river on Monday as what looked like a Mexican military patrol assisted the marijuana smugglers as they escaped back into Mexico.

On U.S. side of border
Andrea Simmons, an FBI spokeswoman in El Paso, told The Associated Press that Texas Department of Public Safety troopers chased three SUVs, believing they were carrying drugs, to the banks of the Rio Grande during Monday's incident.

Men dressed in Mexican military uniforms or camouflage were on the U.S. side of the border in Texas, she said.

Simmons said the FBI was not involved and referred requests for further details to U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

The Inland Valley Daily Bulletin of Ontario, Calif., reported Tuesday that the incident included an armed standoff involving the Mexican military and suspected drug smugglers. The incident follows a story in the Bulletin on Jan. 15 that said the Mexican military had crossed into the United States more than 200 times since 1996.

Apparent military Humvee helped
In a news conference, Rick Glancey of the Texas Border Sheriff's Coalition, said three Hudspeth County deputies and at least two Texas Department of Public Safety troopers squared off against at least 10 heavily armed men from the Mexican side of the Rio Grande.

U.S. officials who pursued three fleeing SUVs to the Mexican border saw what appeared to be a Mexican military Humvee help one of the SUVs when it got stuck in the river, he said.

“The other two vehicles headed towards the riverbank. One of them crossed back into Mexico, and the third got stuck in the riverbed,” Zapata County Sheriff Sigifredo Gonzalez said on Tuesday.

An estimated 10 men in camouflage gear in what looked like a Humvee equipped with a .50 caliber machine gun unloaded what was believed to be marijuana from the stuck vehicle, set it on fire, then carried the bundles into Mexico, he said.

A second SUV had a flat tire and was left behind in the United States and its occupant ran across the border, Glancey said.

Gonzalez, also of the Texas Border Sheriffs’ Coalition, said he was skeptical about the Mexican government's claims.

“When you see a Humvee vehicle with a .50 caliber machine gun on it, this leads you to believe this is not a vehicle being used by the drug lords, but in fact is part of the Mexican military,” Gonzalez said. “I think of course the Mexican government knows about this.”

Glancey said he could not confirm whether the armed men seen at the site were Mexican Army, police officers, or drug dealers, and would not detail what markings deputies may have seen on the men's uniforms or the Humvee.

Fearing international incident
Chief Deputy Mike Doyal of the Hudspeth County Sheriff's Department said that Mexican army personnel had several mounted machine guns on the ground more than 200 yards inside the U.S. border, the Daily Bulletin newspaper reported earlier.

"It's been so bred into everyone not to start an international incident with Mexico that it's been going on for years," Doyal said. "When you're up against mounted machine guns, what can you do? Who wants to pull the trigger first? Certainly not us."

Hudspeth County Sheriff Arvin West, whose officers were involved in a similar incident last year, said he is certain that Mexican authorities know who was involved.

After the newspaper reported on Mexican military crossings earlier this month, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said the report was overblown and most of the incursions were just mistakes.

In eastern California, Arizona and New Mexico, the U.S.-Mexico border is largely unmarked. But in Texas, the Rio Grande separates the two countries and even when dry, is a riverbed about 200 feet wide.

In November, Doyal said Border Patrol agents in the border town of Fort Hancock called for help after confronting more than six men dressed in Mexican military uniforms. The men allegedly were trying to bring more than three tons of marijuana across the Rio Grande, Doyal told the newspaper.

The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.

[NMshooter]

At least no one denies the incident happened.

Lot of things over the years got swept under the rug.

[orionengnr]

Just for next time?

[Biker]

That rug has a lotta lumps in it. Pretty soon, even Joe and Sally Six-Pack are gonna start feeling them under their unprotected, tender little feet.
By then, it'll be way too late.
Biker

[beerslurpy]

So no one asks how the drug smugglers happen to be outfitted with mexican weapons and vehicles, patrolling the border in place of the military? Where do the drug cartels end and the government begin?

[one-shot-one]

to much talk and not enough action.
if they are military then this is an act of war, open fire.:banghead:
if they are drug smuggling border crossing criminal/terorrist, open fire.:banghead: :banghead:
don't talk when you should be shooting.:fire:

[longeyes]

Where do the drug cartels end and the government begin?

Exactly. They share the same Swiss and Cayman bank accounts.

[CentralTexas]

and then we can determine if military or drug runners or both...
CT

[Cacique500]

I second the A-10 idea.

[walking arsenal]

Put me down for wack a few and then figure it out.

[Firethorn]

I second the A-10 idea.

Thirded. That's enough to hold a vote, right?

My thoughts are simple:Any armed force crossing or that have crossed the border should be treated as a military invasion. If they turn out to be mexican military, treat it as a sneak attack and insist on some border concessions.

[Old Fuff]

It should be obvious that our officers can't start a fight when they are outnumbered, and the other side - whoever they are - have heavy automatic weapons while those on our side have handguns and (maybe) semi-automatic rifles or pump shotguns. :eek:

It is equally obvious that any Mexican District Commander that reported to his superiors in Mexico City that such things could be going on without his knowledge would soon find himself reassigned to cleaning latrines. :rolleyes:

[Phyphor]

That rug has a lotta lumps in it. Pretty soon, even Joe and Sally Six-Pack are gonna start feeling them under their unprotected, tender little feet.
By then, it'll be way too late.
Biker
I'm all in favor of beatin' em out with a sledgehammer. :evil:

[rero360]

I say they should send my platoon down with some barretts and two or three MK19s, and a bunch of M1As, regardless of whether they are military or drug runners we'll be doing a good deed.

[Preacherman]

They can be properly identified at the autopsy.

[Standing Wolf]

What if Jorge Bush is only pretending to have a plan?

[QuickDraw]

The men allegedly were trying to bring more than three tons of marijuana across the Rio Grande, Doyal told the newspaper.
Wait a minute.
Why would they be smuggling pot in to the U.S.?
Eveyone knows that the best stuff is grown right here
in California!:D
I call B.S.:neener:

QuickDraw

[1911 guy]

ID them at the autopsy. Whether or not they're military is a non-issue right now because we have armed foreign people incurring on our border. Kill them and deal with the issue. If smugglers, problem dies with them. If military, problem is forced to the foreground to be dealt with. Either way, kill them.

[Meplat]

Put me down for wack a few and then figure it out.


We used to use that theory to check on downed deer here. (No matter what anyone tells you, you can't always tell in dense eastern brush whether a deer has antlers. Just ain't enough time.) Called it "ground checking". And was 100% accurate. So few things in life are.

[LAK]

Yeah, George and Vicente need another plan now to keep up business as usual as undisturbed as possible. ;)
-----------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

[El Tejon]

So, we couldn't tell just by looking at them that they were official Mexican government troops. Darn it, leave it to the feds to burst yet another bubble of Peter Pan fantasy of Mexican troops pouring over the Rio Grande and THR members leaping up from their recliners SKSs in hand to repeal the hordes.:D

OTOH, ah, where is the USA down there? Why isn't he rounding up folks for a grand jury to investigate and prosecute whoever was responsible?

[ElTacoGrande]

Wait a minute.
Why would they be smuggling pot in to the U.S.?
Eveyone knows that the best stuff is grown right here
in California!:D
I call B.S.:neener:

I was thinking the same thing myself. Pot is not a high-markup business that would pay enough to buy off the Mexican army. Cocaine, yes, but pot? We produce so much good-quality smokables here, we don't need any Mexican imports. Now if we could just start producing our own coke and heroine, it would be better for our economy and would take money out of the hands of terrorists and criminals south of the border.

[buzz_knox]

They can be properly identified at the autopsy.

+1.

[Janitor]

Wait a minute.
Why would they be smuggling pot in to the U.S.?
Eveyone knows that the best stuff is grown right here
in California!:D
I call B.S.:neener:

QuickDraw
Note the story - they were being chased SOUTH towards the river with that pot. They were probably bringing back some imported quality stuff from Humboldt Co.

--- Preacherman is right - an autopsy could tell us for sure who they are.

[Old Fuff]

In a news conference, Rick Glancey of the Texas Border Sheriff's Coalition, said three Hudspeth County deputies and at least two Texas Department of Public Safety troopers squared off against at least 10 heavily armed men from the Mexican side of the Rio Grande.

An estimated 10 men in camouflage gear in what looked like a Humvee equipped with a .50 caliber machine gun unloaded what was believed to be marijuana from the stuck vehicle, set it on fire, then carried the bundles into Mexico

Maybe some consideration should be given as to who the autopsy(s) might be done on. Has anybody looked at the odds here? Obviously the American law enforcement officers that were involved did.

"When you're up against mounted machine guns, what can you do? Who wants to pull the trigger first? Certainly not us." :uhoh:

If our border is being crossed by individuals armed and equipped as described above, the response should come from out military, not civilian law enforcement officers. But at this time the U.S. Government has no military forces protecting the border. Any role they have is as observers. :banghead:

The Old Fuff thinks that some folks need to wake up and smell the coffee...

(Which is a good idea... He will now return to his. :) )

[1911 guy]

These border incursions seem to be somewhat common, so why is there not serious manpower and hardware there? I agree the odds were not good for our guys, they should be evened up a bit. OK, a lot.

[belton-deer-hunter]

+1 we need to even up the odds on the border and let more people like the minute men out there to protect our country like kennedy said "ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country" or something like that

on another story i thoink that it really was millitary and that they put their noses in where they shouldnt have and bush it trying to let it slide so not to increase violence in the usa. because no matter how you look at it it will be hard to fight mexico becaue of the large number of immagrants who are here and i am sure some of them will side with mexico.

[Old Fuff]

Well good... :)

Maybe it will now be established and understood that having firefights under the circumstances described in my previous post isn't going to go well for the guys on our side. Military incursions should be met by a military response, but for a number of reasons that isn't likely to happen. By now this incident is yesterday’s news, and throughout the country (excluding along the border) there hasn’t been a ripple. The talking heads in Washington and Mexico City have explained what happened, and that’s that.

But I sort of wonder: If this force was really made up of drug smugglers, and they are armed as was said, why isn’t the Mexican Government not moving its own military forces into the area to counter the possible threat to their own authority? After all, this is a country that won’t even allow its citizens to own military-caliber handguns, and anyone crossing from outside to Mexico with so much as a single cartridge is in SERIOUS trouble.

But then, we should never question what we are told, never…never…never…

[belton-deer-hunter]

+1 with you old fuff you are wise beyond your years

[merk]

It sucks that its going to take drug running scum bags killing Americans on the border to get a somewhat sufficient reaction from Washington.

Though im still wary of the whole situation.

[belton-deer-hunter]

it does suck but i have been wary of this for a few years now not meaning to sound rascits or anything but the mexican kids are turning to the hip hop scence and as i am sure you all know that is not a good place

[NineseveN]

I fourth the call for a couple of A-10's. :D

I see your HUMVEE mounted .50 and raise you the sound of impending DOOM! :evil:

[chaim]

I agree that the US cops made the right choice. A few lightly armed cops (they certainly had their side arms, maybe a shotgun or semi-auto AR) are no match for 10 highly armed people, possibly soldiers, who are backed by one or two HUMVEE mounted 50s.

I see two practical partial solutions. Of course, the ideal would be the US military patrolling the border (maybe elements of the National Guard and Reserves- who better for real Homeland Security), but we all know the chances of that:banghead:

One potential solution is to arm the cops. Most of us decry the "militarization" of the police, but in these border cities and counties it makes sense. If they may be facing Mexican troops or paramilitary types, they need military weapons. A specialized SWAT team with full-auto ARs, and a couple well trained guys on police sniper rifles might have been able to take these guys on (primarily using the snipers, backed/defended by other team members on their ARs). At minimum make sure each cop in this region has a full auto M14/M1A, FAL, AR/M16, AK or similar in the trunk of the car.

A better solution (probably in conjunction with the above) is to militarize and enlarge the Border Patrol. In many other countries they recognize that the Border Police are their first line of defense. Take Israel for instance, yes they are police with police training and arrest powers, but they are also basically a part of the Armed Forces (though administratively they are a police agency) with the training and armament of a light infantry or at least MP unit (and organization, unit structure, and rank structure of a military unit). We already use a similar model with our Coast Guard- they are a police agency under the Department of Homeland Security (formerly under the Treasury Department) with many law enforcement duties and training, but they are a branch of the military with military training and organization and they can be placed under the Navy during times of war or crisis. We basically need the Border Patrol to be a land based Coast Guard- part military/part law enforcement, with all the military armament and training they need. They don't exist to arrest US citizens, they exist to protect and defend our borders.

[longeyes]

But I sort of wonder: If this force was really made up of drug smugglers, and they are armed as was said, why isn’t the Mexican Government not moving its own military forces into the area to counter the possible threat to their own authority? After all, this is a country that won’t even allow its citizens to own military-caliber handguns, and anyone crossing from outside to Mexico with so much as a single cartridge is in SERIOUS trouble.

Behold: Narco-government.

On both sides of the border.

Of course we need our military there, but to use our military would interfere with the grand plan ($$$). Ain't gonna happen.

[wingman]

corrupt country moving north one foot at a time.:banghead:

[davec]

If only drugs were legal, then they'd be coming north in legal semi-trailers passing through normal customs.

But since we cant possible have sane and sensible narcotics legislation our border patrol and LEO's in border towns get to shoot it out with government backed militarized drug smugglers.

And the proposed solutions? well...more militarization of the border...more police...more money...

why don't we just legalize it and enjoy the tariff profits....naaaaah...that makes too much sense.

[Sindawe]

why don't we just legalize it and enjoy the tariff profits....naaaaah...that makes too much sense. But think of the Message it would send to our youth about mind altering chemicals! It would be ANARCHY in the streets!!!

Opps, time for another beer & I need a smoke....

[c_yeager]

So no one asks how the drug smugglers happen to be outfitted with mexican weapons and vehicles, patrolling the border in place of the military? Where do the drug cartels end and the government begin?


Your absolutely right. Mexico should adobt the American model of outlawing the civilian possession of military styled weapons and humvees, and they should not allow civilians within 10 miles of the border. Oh wait...

[PvtPyle]

This is going to anger some, and shock some of the other mods. But until the local ranchers and citizens begin shooting these guys when they are on this side of the border, it wont stop. Chertoff will continue to appologize and cover for them, the administration will continue to PROHIBIT the agents on the border from reporting Mexican military and police on this side of the line, PROHIBIT them from engaging them in a firefight even when shot at first, and PROHIBIT them from filing reports on these incidents unless someone is hurt. If there is property damage they are to turn in the property for repair. Until we can show a Mexican Hummer with heavy weapons and a squad of troops armed with automatic rifles, on a US citizens property, it wont stop. The only thing that would be better is if the incident was video taped and it was a nice clean shoot.

Some would say that I am one of those guys who is too eager to use a weapon. That's because you don't know me. The fact stands that these Mexican soldiers are using property of mexico to aid in the transport of narcotics and illegal aliens into the US. They are violating our laws by doing so, and invading the US by coming onto our soil. Maybe I am a simple guy, but the course of action we need to take seems pretty clear to me.

[Biker]

Well PvtPyle, I normally only salute on Memorial Day, but I think that I'll make an exception today. To ya...
Biker

[Sindawe]

This is going to anger some, and shock some of the other mods. Yep, I'm angered and shocked.

Angered that this goes on, and our servants still do nothing.

Shocked that it has not come to a shooting match yet.

[El Tejon]

Pvt. Pyle, of course, one has to accept the notion that "they", whoever they are, are actually here.

In politics perception is reality. The reality could be that "they" are not here and people are being deliberately mislead to further the agendas of those with a vest interest in border restrictions.

[belton-deer-hunter]

the man is watching us remember and if your property is ever used for one of these shootings the yhave it premetadted or however you spell it. that is why i use a public computer lol
but i agree we need to get this show roilling it is going to happen but look at it this way "at least we have more time to buy ammo"

[azredhawk44]

Guys -

I signed up as a MinuteMan in Arizona a couple of weeks ago, and I am going to help with some border surveillance here soon, but this type of stuff has me worried...

MinuteMen are not allowed to carry long guns for protection. I sure would feel much more warm and fuzzy if I had my M1A in my pickup, but I ain't allowed to, so I won't have it. Heck, I'd feel better with a Winnie94, but I won't have it. I'll only have a handgun, similar to these sherriff's deputies.

I certainly don't intend on chasing any humvees or anything, but what if they feel they need to "arrest" me if they somehow spot me as they drive by? Or if they have equipment that lets them track radio signal origination?

What if they decide this spring they want to bring a fight to the US, starting with the minutemen?

I would have a radio and a handgun against several vehicles of armed men with heavy full auto guns for support. Creepy.

I'm still going to help with surveillance, but it is scary stuff. I sure want some NG or Army patrols in that desert. I want some big guns somewhere nearby, if I can't have them.

[PvtPyle]

Yeah, I am sure the BP guys who had them use a bulldozer and 2 hummers to sieze a load of dope that BP had confiscated so they could give it back to the drug runners. I am sure that they were very happy to have these imaginary mexicans sieze their load so that the ensuing paperwork and investigation could cause them no end of headache.

And if it is a ruse to further the restrictions on the boarder, it isn't working. It is still wide open.

But the first time one of these terrorists gets across with a SAM (as opposed to the Pak national who was caught with 21 of them 50 miles south of Diego last summer) and downs a plane, I bet you see somebody close the border. One way or another.

[belton-deer-hunter]

+1 pyle
but should we have to wait for that... we didnt have a warning on 9-11 but now we do so why are we waiting i am saying we know something is going to happen but we are waiting gor it to happen why?

[longeyes]

Pyle, we hear ya.

Nature abhors a vacuum, and on this subject our Government, alas, is a vacuum.

[The Viking]

I wonder what the reaction from the mexican government would be if a number of these people were killed while on the north side of the border? For some reason I think they wouldn't like that...which is strange, since they are just smugglers :rolleyes:

[caduckgunner]

And now the F.M. of Mexico say's there is a good chance they were American troops in the humvee with guns aimed at the cops:fire: . maybe we should kill the bext SOB's that pull a stunt like this and see who they are.:cuss:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060126/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/mexico_us_border_crossing;_ylt=AoxARu0jctdDfPsE2LdUG8NvaA8F;_ylu=X3oDMTA5aHJvMDdwBHNlYwN5bmNhdA--

[Carl N. Brown]

If Americans in military uniforms, in military vehicles, carrying military
weapons made an incursion into Mexico, the results would be: Mexico
would protect Mexican national sovereignty*. USA needs to be equally
adamant in protecting USA national sovereignty.

----------------
*Survivors would be in Federale prisons.

[Lennyjoe]

azredhawk44, if you want I can show you at least 2 major trails coming North from the Sasabe area. We hunt down there and always see fresh tracks heading North.

Wish I could join you but my AD status restricts me from doing so. At least thats what I have been told by a department individual who had alot of acronyms on her card. ;)

[longeyes]

USA needs to be equally adamant in protecting USA national sovereignty

Sovereignty has been replaced by sovereigns. Money and poobahs rule. We are asking Them to protect something that they wrote off some time ago.

[bowfin]

Minutemen can't carry long arms to defend themselves?

I think you guys need to go back and look at the statue in Lexington, or the one at Concord (Yep, there are two of them, and they are different).

Otherwise, you are going to have to call yourselves "I'll Get Back to You in a Minute" Men while you scramble to retrieve something big enough to counter a Hum Vee with a fifty on top.

No offense to the Minute Men group, but don't sacrifice someone's life to avoid stepping on Politically Correct toes.

[Hawkmoon]

So, we couldn't tell just by looking at them that they were official Mexican government troops.
Yeah.

But a Mexican politician/bureaucrat who wasn't there and who didn't witness the event KNOWS they were not real Mexican military personnel.

Riiiiight! 10-4

[Waitone]

We got plenty of video of what's going on. Ain't it curious little if any makes it to air. Even curiouser is about a year ago DoD test flew a Predator sorta testing out surveillance systems (as if it really were necessary). The program was terminated and deemed a success. Curiously, no one, lemme repeat--no one, has filed a FOI request for release of the video. I would just love to see a night scope panorama view of a section of the border. I suspect no on in the ruling class wants that kind of visual on air.

Private Pyle is correct. There will have to be a firefight to attract the attention of Big Media. Our culture is essentially one that believes nothing happened unless we see video. Trouble is if the ranchers open up or if they inadvertently get into a firefight both the media and fed.gov will be all over the poor slobs like a bad case of the flu. Sad but accurate in my view.

[azredhawk44]

Trouble is if the ranchers open up or if they inadvertently get into a firefight both the media and fed.gov will be all over the poor slobs like a bad case of the flu. Sad but accurate in my view.


Which is probably why the minutemen don't carry long guns.

Minutemen can't carry long arms to defend themselves?

I think you guys need to go back and look at the statue in Lexington, or the one at Concord (Yep, there are two of them, and they are different).

Otherwise, you are going to have to call yourselves "I'll Get Back to You in a Minute" Men while you scramble to retrieve something big enough to counter a Hum Vee with a fifty on top.

No offense to the Minute Men group, but don't sacrifice someone's life to avoid stepping on Politically Correct toes.

I don't know for absolute certainty about the rifle situation, but that is the information I have so far. I have only been to rallies here in phoenix protesting day labor so far.

azredhawk44, if you want I can show you at least 2 major trails coming North from the Sasabe area. We hunt down there and always see fresh tracks heading North.

Wish I could join you but my AD status restricts me from doing so. At least thats what I have been told by a department individual who had alot of acronyms on her card.

If anyone has GPS coordinates of commonly used illegal immigrant trails and wants to pass them along, PM me if you don't know anyone else in the organization. I am new, but I will do what I can to get them in the right place.

[shecky]

Of course, all these problems would disappear if we had the balls to decriminalize drugs and immigration. Notice nobody is forcing Americans to smoke weed or hire immigrants. We do it because we love our drugs and cheap labor pool, and we'll continue to seek them out whether it's legal or not.

[Old Fuff]

Yup.... Forget everything that you've read... we have a new story. :uhoh:

I just knew that the truth would come out. :eek: :rolleyes:

This unquestionably is the straight stuff... :scrutiny:

Mexico Claims GIs Aid Pot Smugglers
January 26, 2006 7:12 PM EST

MEXICO CITY - Mexico's top diplomat suggested Thursday that American soldiers disguised as Mexican troops may have been in the military-style Humvee filmed earlier this week protecting a marijuana shipment on the border.

Foreign Secretary Luis Ernesto Derbez also told a news conference that U.S. soldiers had helped drug smugglers before.

However, he offered no evidence.

The U.S. Embassy in Mexico made no immediate comment on Derbez's claims.

His comments came a day after U.S. Ambassador Tony Garza issued a statement asking the Mexican government to "fully investigate" the border incident.

Monday's armed standoff began 50 miles east of El Paso, Texas, when Texas state police tried to stop three sport utility vehicles on Interstate 10. The vehicles made a quick U-turn and headed south toward the border, a few miles away.

Crossing the border, one SUV got stuck in the Rio Grande River, and men in a Humvee tried in vain to tow it out. Then a group of men in civilian clothes began unloading what appeared to be bundles of marijuana and torched the SUV before fleeing.

Mexico insisted Wednesday that the men in military-style uniforms were drug smugglers, not soldiers. In Mexico, kidnappers and drug smugglers regularly wear police gear, which is sold at street stands.

Derbez said Thursday that the men photographed by Texas law enforcement could have been Americans.

"Members of the U.S. Army have helped protect people who were processing and transporting drugs," Derbez said. "And just as that has happened ... it is very probable that something like that could have happened, that in reality they were members of some of their groups disguised as Mexican soldiers with Humvees."

Three U.S. soldiers have pleaded guilty to running a cocaine smuggling ring from a U.S. base in Colombia, and a fourth is being tried in Texas this week.

Derbez said there was no proof that the men seen in the incident were Mexicans.

Derbez also said his country will send a diplomatic note to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice demanding that U.S. officials tone down their comments on Mexico's security and immigration problems.

So now they is a'gonna send Mrs. Rice a nasty letter... :banghead:

[LAK]

Minutemen can't carry long arms to defend themselves?

I think you guys need to go back and look at the statue in Lexington, or the one at Concord (Yep, there are two of them, and they are different).

Otherwise, you are going to have to call yourselves "I'll Get Back to You in a Minute" Men while you scramble to retrieve something big enough to counter a Hum Vee with a fifty on top.

No offense to the Minute Men group, but don't sacrifice someone's life to avoid stepping on Politically Correct toes.
Actually, I have been writing for a long time that we do have an unorganized militia written into the Constitution in the form of the 2nd Amendment and Title 10 Section 311 of the United States Code. All Sam has to do is call them into national service on a voluntary basis. We have hundreds of thousands - probably millions - of vets who have already had training and experience who would volunteer for this on a part time basis. And many potentially even have their own personal equipment.

But alas; we have a government who have an agenda of their own, and the last thing on their collective mind is to use a Constitutional resource like the unorganized militia to spoil their plans.
----------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

[db_tanker]

I might be getting a bit grey in the hair, long of tooth, and cast a bit larger shadow...but I can still hump a load a few miles...and I like to think I am a bit better marksman than what I was those years ago. If I am called I won't let the answering machine take it. :)


Its going to be sad. This is going to lead to some good men who wear the badge getting hurt or worse simply because our enlightened leadership refuses to knuckle down on our cheap labor pool. I have too many friends who are LEO's to not be concerned with that outcome.

I still have the fear of just how many OTHER individuals, that aren't of Mexican or SA descent , have come across the border. With me and mine living so close to THE petrochemical heart of America...it keeps you awake sometimes at night. :(

D

[El Tejon]

PvtPyle, the border has always been dangerous. Heck, Bill Jordan and Harlon Carter said it was and that's good enough for me. However, it is not as dangerous as the streets of Chicago, New York or D.C.

However, the recent hysteria is manufactured to create political opportunities. Smuggling has always existed, however the nonsense regarding the Mexican Army and other bear stories, e.g. the Zetas, are used to create outrage so lift the political fortunes of some.

[Geno]

The Mexico-USA Border is like the Great Niagara--each year a bit more of American soil is eroded away by the flow of illegals, literally crumbling away at our great democracy, and moving the perceived line of American sovereignty ever-northward.

Too, like the great Niagara, we are powerless to stop the illegal flow. The illegals have poured into America, contaminating the very core of our country and society. We claim concern for national security, yet we stand with our hands tied behind our backs, blind-folded saying, "I don't see a problem".

We better consider one fact--if the USA ever declared "war" on Mexico, they already have a standing "Army" of about 15 million illegals inside the USA. Do you REALLY think we'd kick their butts? We lost this war even before it was declared. Perhaps THAT is the reason no one in Washington dares to confront the issue?

Doc2005

[Jason Hallock]

Barrett .50BMG through the engine block of any suspect vehical , It won't be going back accross the border, picture and hard evidence go a long way. Let the Mexicali Army run back accross the bourder and explain how thier Humvee ended up on the wrong side of the river. And let the fun begin. That's some thing the local LE could do.

There is no virtue in defenselessness, and no dignity in victimhood.

[Old Fuff]

You might be able to stop the Humvee, but in the meantime they'd have their "Ma Duce" running, and both our officers and their vehicles would be vulnerable. Then one might expect that our outnumbered lawmen would be facing small arms fire from automatic weapons too. Sounds like a great way to have a “no survivors” situation for our side.

If indeed incursions are occurring across out border with heavy military equipment and weapons, any response should be by our military – not law enforcement officers, and not private citizens.

The Minute Men, who have proven to be viable and useful, pointedly say that they are in place as observers, not fighters.

Somehow I think a few of you guys want to get our people killed while you dream up far-fetched solutions.

As for the Mexican government, they'd either say the Humvee(s) wasn’t theirs, or that drug smugglers had stolen it. Right now they say it's our own GI's that are doing the dirty deeds... :cuss:

[belton-deer-hunter]

well i think that it is going to come to a biol and there is no way to stop it and i am saying that i am ready it is the waiting for some thing big to happen that kills people if we ignor the threat it only grows it does not go away

[Lennyjoe]

The program was terminated and deemed a success
I wouldn't necessarily say it's terminated. Just not talked about much outside of military/Homeland Security channels.

If anyone has GPS coordinates of commonly used illegal immigrant trails and wants to pass them along

I just might have to go out for a ride to our usual quail areas this weekend and mark the trails for you. I have the coordinates where we park but the trails are about 200yds inside of the road. Will pull out the GPS this eve and hash it out.

[hank327]

That the United States of America of 2006 does not have the cojones to do what the United States of 1916 did. That is to put the US Army on the border to protect it's citizens and their property from foriegn invaders. Have no doubt that the Mexican Army is working for the narcotraficantes. Mexico is a thourghly corrupt society. Almost all of my living relatives are Mexican and they lament the situation within their country. Everyone is on the take in Mexico, and everyone has their price.

I'm afraid that it will take something like Pancho Villa's raid on Colombus, New Mexico to get the Feds to do something about the situation on the border. Imagine the uproar if that standoff along the Rio Grande earlier this week had ended in a firefight with multiple causulties on the American side. I imagine the most likely event to occur will be a "Miami Shootout in the Desert." with our guys getting hammered due to being outgunned and outnumbered. Until such an event, I don't see the politicians doing anything substantial to remedy the situation. The elites of both parties greatly benefit from allowing a flood of illegals in. One party gains voters, while the other party's financial supporters gain both cheap illegal laborers and a supression of the wages of American workers.

As things seem to be warming up way down Mexico way, I think the "incident" will happen sooner rather than later.

[Biker]

This may sound overly simplistic, but let the dance begin. A shootout, likely deadly to our own, just might be the catalyst required to direct national attention to our borders. Either that or a 9/11 type of event that coud be traced to border incusions.
It's gonna happen sooner or later, might as well make it now.
Biker

[NineseveN]

This may sound overly simplistic, but let the dance begin. A shootout, likely deadly to our own, just might be the catalyst required to direct national attention to our borders. Either that or a 9/11 type of event that coud be traced to border incusions.
It's gonna happen sooner or later, might as well make it now.
Biker


Roger that. Sad, but true.

[roo_ster]

If our border is being crossed by individuals armed and equipped as described above, the response should come from out military, not civilian law enforcement officers.
Amen to that.

The ground I walked over down there would be wonderful for training up our Nat'l Guardsmen & regulars in patrolling.

The cops did the right thing. They weren't equipped to deal with Ma Deuce. A couple of Strykers or LAV-3s would be just the ticket.

[oneslowgun]

Go ugly early.

http://www.airshow.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?page=1/PROD/T05/TE43

It will not stop it, but it will slow it.

Heck, just tell us we WON'T lose our house, our cars or our jobs, and even in 30 day rotation, I'll show you a border without footprints.

What is so hard about letting the citizens of the US, defend the US? Thats kinda how we got here. Isn't it?

[longeyes]

What we have right now is a charade. Next month the charade moves to D.C., where we will get to watch a lot of so-called political representatives of this Republic dance as fast as they can around the issue of the illegal invasion of America. Is the border going to get "hot?" Of course. Probably sooner rather than later. Unfortunately, it's not as simple as armed Americans taking on Mexicans. We have our own Government against us right now. We still lack a strong grass-roots political movement to bring the enormity of this problem home to the right people in Washington in terms they understand.

[tom barthel]

Well, I'm glad this is finally explained. I know President Bush has a plan to deal with the border problem - what worriesme is it appears to be the same plan that Senator Kennedy has. Why do they think alike?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11021314/

MEXICO CITY - Mexico insisted Wednesday that men in Mexican military-style uniforms who crossed the Rio Grande River and sparked an armed confrontation with Texas law officers earlier this week were drug smugglers, not Mexican soldiers.

Mexico’s presidential spokesman Ruben Aguilar said the FBI supported that view, but he gave no evidence of the claim.

“These were not Mexican soldiers,” Aguilar said at a news conference. “It is known that these are drug traffickers using military uniforms and they were not even regulation military uniforms.”

Texas law enforcement officials confronted armed traffickers near the Rio Grande river on Monday as what looked like a Mexican military patrol assisted the marijuana smugglers as they escaped back into Mexico.

On U.S. side of border
Andrea Simmons, an FBI spokeswoman in El Paso, told The Associated Press that Texas Department of Public Safety troopers chased three SUVs, believing they were carrying drugs, to the banks of the Rio Grande during Monday's incident.

Men dressed in Mexican military uniforms or camouflage were on the U.S. side of the border in Texas, she said.

Simmons said the FBI was not involved and referred requests for further details to U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

The Inland Valley Daily Bulletin of Ontario, Calif., reported Tuesday that the incident included an armed standoff involving the Mexican military and suspected drug smugglers. The incident follows a story in the Bulletin on Jan. 15 that said the Mexican military had crossed into the United States more than 200 times since 1996.

Apparent military Humvee helped
In a news conference, Rick Glancey of the Texas Border Sheriff's Coalition, said three Hudspeth County deputies and at least two Texas Department of Public Safety troopers squared off against at least 10 heavily armed men from the Mexican side of the Rio Grande.

U.S. officials who pursued three fleeing SUVs to the Mexican border saw what appeared to be a Mexican military Humvee help one of the SUVs when it got stuck in the river, he said.

“The other two vehicles headed towards the riverbank. One of them crossed back into Mexico, and the third got stuck in the riverbed,” Zapata County Sheriff Sigifredo Gonzalez said on Tuesday.

An estimated 10 men in camouflage gear in what looked like a Humvee equipped with a .50 caliber machine gun unloaded what was believed to be marijuana from the stuck vehicle, set it on fire, then carried the bundles into Mexico, he said.

A second SUV had a flat tire and was left behind in the United States and its occupant ran across the border, Glancey said.

Gonzalez, also of the Texas Border Sheriffs’ Coalition, said he was skeptical about the Mexican government's claims.

“When you see a Humvee vehicle with a .50 caliber machine gun on it, this leads you to believe this is not a vehicle being used by the drug lords, but in fact is part of the Mexican military,” Gonzalez said. “I think of course the Mexican government knows about this.”

Glancey said he could not confirm whether the armed men seen at the site were Mexican Army, police officers, or drug dealers, and would not detail what markings deputies may have seen on the men's uniforms or the Humvee.

Fearing international incident
Chief Deputy Mike Doyal of the Hudspeth County Sheriff's Department said that Mexican army personnel had several mounted machine guns on the ground more than 200 yards inside the U.S. border, the Daily Bulletin newspaper reported earlier.

"It's been so bred into everyone not to start an international incident with Mexico that it's been going on for years," Doyal said. "When you're up against mounted machine guns, what can you do? Who wants to pull the trigger first? Certainly not us."

Hudspeth County Sheriff Arvin West, whose officers were involved in a similar incident last year, said he is certain that Mexican authorities know who was involved.

After the newspaper reported on Mexican military crossings earlier this month, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said the report was overblown and most of the incursions were just mistakes.

In eastern California, Arizona and New Mexico, the U.S.-Mexico border is largely unmarked. But in Texas, the Rio Grande separates the two countries and even when dry, is a riverbed about 200 feet wide.

In November, Doyal said Border Patrol agents in the border town of Fort Hancock called for help after confronting more than six men dressed in Mexican military uniforms. The men allegedly were trying to bring more than three tons of marijuana across the Rio Grande, Doyal told the newspaper.

The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.

Perhaps it would be more convincing with some captured equipment and a few bodies in uniform. If Mexico isn't corrupt, why are so many Mexicans risking everything to escape to America??? If I were presented with an opportunity to capture a Mexican soldier in America the FIRST thing I would do would be to take the prisiner to a television station. I have no property for the courts to give to illegals like they did in Arizona.
:mad: :mad: :mad:
Tom

[oneshooter]

If you shoot the gunner first, the M2 is usless!:D

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

[Chrontius]

You might be able to stop the Humvee, but in the meantime they'd have their "Ma Duce" running, and both our officers and their vehicles would be vulnerable. Then one might expect that our outnumbered lawmen would be facing small arms fire from automatic weapons too. Sounds like a great way to have a “no survivors” situation for our side.

I'd suggest having a couple Barrets handy, with either Raufoss or SLAP ammunition. Both give the rifle a longer accurate range, and the first is liable to thoroughly trash an engine; dunno about SLAP's actual damage potential but I figure a small grenade detonating in the engine block'll distract the gunners long enough that sniper #2 can destroy the gun. Or, if you're not going to pump 'em for info, aim for the cabin; the Raufosses are designed to detonate after penetrating, after all.

Rinse, repeat a few times, and then send in the Marines.

It's gonna happen sooner or later, might as well make it now.
Biker
... Before Al Quaeda gets in on the action. I may think it's outright evil to sacrifice our men this way, but I worry about what happens if we *don't*

[odysseus]

Since the Fed is as usual dragging their feet and doing nothing on this issue, I am curious why the states can't jump in on their territories and defend them? I know the border is federal jurisdiction, but just behind it is the state's jurisdiction. What am I missing here with this idea?

[Waitone]

I think based on my complete lack of experience in things border and federales the problem lies in two areas. First area is borders are a federal jurisdiction.

Second, the federales are adamement (?sp) that nothing substantive be done. I think the federales would take a dim view of any state action which effectively stops the flow and made them look like what they are doing--nothing. Too much federal money comes to the states and can be cut off on a whim.

[Old Fuff]

Both the governors of Arizona and New Mexico have moved to provide financial assistance to law enforcement organizations in the border counties. But what they can do is limited - first they only have so much money that can be used for this, and second, it is the specific responsibility of the federal government to control illegal immigration. Local and state police agencies neither have, nor want the legal authority to deal with the problem. To a degree they can do something about cross-border drug smuggling.

They can arrest illegal immigrants – like anyone else – for committing crimes such as burglary, robbery, rape, aggravated assault, etc. but this is causing our prisons to become filled to overflowing, and the total expense falls on state and local governments. The criminals are not deported until after they serve they’re sentence. And shortly thereafter they come right back.

[oneshooter]

I was thinking of somthing a little more portable. Say a couple of M-14's with AP ammo. Enough to penetrate light side armour and class 3 vests, light enough to carry all day, 11lb vs 30lb. :D A couple of rounds in the engine block of a Hummer should be enough, if it comes down to the nasty a couple of round through the gunner and/or driver should be enough also!:evil:

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

[longeyes]

Americans will get their chance to wake up and raise heck very soon: the "Guest Worker" bill is on the runway. They can get steamed before or after the bill passes. Up to all of us.

[Hawkmoon]

I'll only have a handgun, similar to these sherriff's deputies.
Buntline Special in .454 Casull

Or one of them new S&W .500s.

Hey ... it's a "handgun" ...

[wingman]

Americans will get their chance to wake up and raise heck very soon: the "Guest Worker" bill is on the runway. They can get steamed before or after the bill passes. Up to all of us.


This administration plans on force feeding this to us no matter if the voting
base wants it or not I have told my senators that I will vote against anyone
voting for this bill and distasteful as it may be I plan to do so.:banghead:

[longeyes]

I agree with you, Wingman, that the "Guest Worker" atrocity appears to be a done deal. The real story, though, will be where all of this goes from there. The rightwing talk radio people believe the Democratic Party is self-destructing, in the thrall of moonbats. Perhaps they should examine the mote in their own eye. Forcing the New Amnesty bill through may very well lead to the collapse of the Republican Party. A lot of people are going to feel very sold-out and are going to be very ticked off by 2008's Election. I think both major Parties are dinosaurs, having shown themselves pragmatically unable to deal with the vital concerns of the nation given to us by our Founding Fathers.

[NineseveN]

I agree with you, Wingman, that the "Guest Worker" atrocity appears to be a done deal. The real story, though, will be where all of this goes from there. The rightwing talk radio people believe the Democratic Party is self-destructing, in the thrall of moonbats. Perhaps they should examine the mote in their own eye. Forcing the New Amnesty bill through may very well lead to the collapse of the Republican Party. A lot of people are going to feel very sold-out and are going to be very ticked off by 2008's Election. I think both major Parties are dinosaurs, having shown themselves pragmatically unable to deal with the vital concerns of the nation given to us by our Founding Fathers.


A friend and I were talking about this last night and I agree with you here. I think it's best if both parties go the way of the Dodo to be honest. It's six of one, half a dozen of the other. The Repubs are molesting the 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th Amendments, the Dems would be raping the 2nd, 9th and 10th. Both parties would cry outrage over the unconstitutional actions of their political adversaries, yet we will not see them undo the damage if they come into power themselves.

When the Dems run in '08, one of their biggest platforms will be the Patriot Act and the WoT's being unconstitutional, yet I can guarantee we will not see them relinquish the power granted to them by the trespasses of their predecessors when they sit on the thrones of the Beltway. When the Dems control the house and senate, they will ruin the 2a if they can and we won't see the next Repub in office giving that power up over the subjects of America when they have control of the house and senate.

They have middle-America hoodwinked. While those that toe their party line are busy berating the other side fighting over the intellectual table scraps of their own respective political propaganda machines and putting blinders on to the evils of their own parties, the Dems and Repubs in power are busy bargaining over who gets access to what is left when they divvy up every single freedom we used to have in this country.


------------------------------------------------------------------------

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President George W. Bush says Bill Clinton has become so close to his father that the Democratic former president is like a member of the family.

Former President George Bush has worked with Clinton to raise money for victims of the Asian tsunami and the hurricane disaster along the U.S. Gulf Coast.

Asked about his father and Clinton, Bush quipped, "Yes, he and my new brother."

"That's a good relationship. It's a fun relationship to watch," Bush said in an interview with CBS News broadcast on Sunday.

While attending Pope John Paul's funeral, Bush said, "It was fun to see the interplay between dad and Clinton. One of these days, I'll be a member of the ex-president's club. ... I'll be looking for something to do."

He said ex-presidents share rare experiences that others cannot understand. "And so I can understand why ex-presidents are able to put aside old differences," he said.

Bush said he checked in with Clinton occasionally.

"And you know, he says things that makes it obvious -- that makes it obvious to me that we're kind of, you know, on the same wavelength about the job of the presidency. Makes sense, after all, there's this kind of commonality," he said.

Bush jokingly referred to speculation that Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, the former president's wife, will seek the Democratic nomination for the presidency. He had earlier referred to the former first lady as "formidable."

"Bush, Clinton, Bush, Clinton," he said, referring to how Bill Clinton had followed his father, and Hillary Clinton could follow him.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060130/od_nm/bush_clinton_dc

------------------------------------------------------------------------



Pagin Mrs. Wolfe...

[db_tanker]

Okay...what does the landowners that have property along the borders have to say on this matter? I mean, doesn't the "migrant" labor have to pass in their property?

Aren't there laws protecting one from trespassers?


And then wouldn't that become a local matter and not Federal?

I am not sure if anyone else has brought this up, which is why I am now.

D

[EmGeeGeorge]

http://www.navcops.com/magazine/blogs/40/Patrol-records-show-Mexican-military-strays-across-border

this is a bigger problem in my opinion, than folks cutting lawns and cleaning hotels off-the-books...

military troops backing drug smugglers...

[Hawkmoon]

So now they is a'gonna send Mrs. Rice a nasty letter... :banghead:
Well, I hope Jorge allows Condi to write a suitably nasty letter in response. That'll show 'em.