[nickname]

fps, guys. Such bullets, with such ballistic coefficients and velocities and accuracy, make the 223 auto a very capable weapon, all the way to 600 yds. Even at that range, such loads still hit with more effectiveness than do .45 fmj ammo, the latter being tested at 10 ft. The 223 rds still have over 450 ft lbs remaining to them out there. The 223 is quite an amazing little cartridge.

[Arkady]

As effective as that may be, a 24 inch HBAR isn't going to make a terribly flexible weapon on today's battlefield.

I'm sure it's a great setup for competition/groundhogs.

[Redlg155]

The problem is this...according to Bushmaster FAQ's.


Q. What is the maximum bullet weight that I can fire in my Bushmaster? Can I fire the 65 grain bullet? I've heard people talk about having the barrel specially bored for the 65 grain bullet - is this a necessity?

A. No, you can safely and accurately fire up to a 75 grain bullet in the Bushmaster chrome lined 1 in 9" twist barrel - even an 80 grain can be fired safely but accuracy will suffer.

A second question adressed specific barrel twists, but at the same time contained another problem with longer bullets.

The 1 in 8" or 1 in 8.5" barrels will stabilize the super-heavy (80 gr.) bullets, but these are for very long distance competition shooting and are not chrome lined. When properly handloaded, these heavy bullets are too long to function in magazines and must be inserted into the chamber one shot at a time.

So to use the 80 grain loads effectively you must use a specialized weapon and you lose semi auto capability. With that in mind you might as well carry a .308 bolt rifle.

Good Shooting
Red

[Art Eatman]

"...such loads still hit with more effectiveness than do .45 fmj,,,

Maybe so, maybe no. Energy, alone, isn't necessarily the be-all/end-all of wounding. Energy transfer might be better with a projectile of twice the diameter and three times the mass.

You might be correct, nickname, but I don't think I'd offer the idea as a definite "This is THE answer!"

:), Art

PS: I ain't gonna be the test target. :D

[Ian]

All you have to do is notch out the front of a magazine to let the top 2 rds protrude a bit.

Hehehe...

That will prevent you from inserting the mag into the magwell, y'know...

[Redlg155]

Do you really "think" .45 fmj's transfer much of their pathetic 330 ft lbs to a man?

In its "civilian" JHP form..yes. It has a stopping record that is almost second to none and the history of a manstopper to back it up.

Good Shooting
Red

[Art Eatman]

Yeah, Redleg, but the first post concerned the fmj. Regardless, the fmj has been notably effective on quite a few uninvited guests.

twentythree, at 600 yards that bullet is essentially twice the energy of a .22 LR at the muzzle (twice the weight, same velocity), per my exterior ballistics data. Tell me again about the relative effectiveness?

:), Art

[Zak Smith]

75, 77, and even 100gr bullets can be loaded to feed through the magazine in .223. Read about it on ammo-oracle.com or ar15.com.

-z

[Steve Smith]

I am looking for the POINT of this thread. There's gotta be one, I just can't find it.


I shoot .223's at 600 a LOT and I have friends who shoot .223's at 1000 yards a LOT...none of us would ever start pontificating about that cartridge's effectiveness on anyting but a paper target. I wouldn't want to be the test target either, but punching paper is a lot easier than putting down game or enemy troops.


Sorry for the interruption. Please continue the lecture.

[yankytrash]

What's the source of this info? Any links?

[Matt G]

YankyT, I got the impression that Hardin -er, I mean Gunkid --um, I mean Nickname-- came up with the info his ownself. :)

[Art Eatman]

Aw, Steve, it's one of those deals, "Hey, Art, you got a point there?" "I dunno, but I guess if I part my hair right, it won't show."

And variations on that theme.

:D, Art

[yankytrash]

;)

Just thought we needed to clarify that.

In this case, the research needs to go beyond calculators. Gelatin tests, target load tests, and affects of headwinds need to be conducted. I suggest one test be to see if a rifle popper set at 185-200lb will fall under the experimental load at given distances, before we continue to call it possible fact.

Also, for the caliber comparison, we need load data and firearm data for the 45. Not to mention, maybe a different cartridge comparison. After all, a 230gr FMJ through a 5" milspec 1911 (my daily carry setup) is not affected by such things as headwind at 10ft.

Energy is not the only factor in "knock-down power", or wound ballistics, as some might call it. You have tumble, bullet size, bullet path, and many other factors to consider, all of which can affect bullet energy. Also, at 600yd, are you callin your shot within a couple inches? Most certainly could with a pistol at 10ft (and if they couldn't, they might want to get a little more range time in before they decide to carry a handgun for self defense).

Interesting calculator data, but it's back to the drawing board.

[Nero Steptoe]

"As effective as that may be, a 24 inch HBAR isn't going to make a terribly flexible weapon on today's battlefield"

On the other hand, how many of us will ever use an AR as a weapon on today's battlefield? Could be he's planning on making head shots on deer @ 1000 yds. ;)

[EchoSixMike]

Gents, if you punch a hole in somebody at 600 yds, even a .22 diameter one, chances are he's not going to be in any condition to do much to you any time soon. Unless you think you can perform the fine motor skills needed to hit somebody at 600yds with a hole through you?

Now close in is a different story, but now you've got bullets that tumbler and fragment so it's still apples and oranges. Hornady makes a 80gn OTM bullet that runs just fine at mag length. I used it to shoot a 200-12x at 600 last year with a 26" barreled space gun. 24.5 RL 15, 2.260 OAL. No chrono data, I'll see what I can do in that regard. S/F...Ken M

[Steve Smith]

HOT LOAD, Fire in the hole! :D

[Badger Arms]

I'll put the flag up if nobody else will. Here are some of Hardin's other posts... Nickname I mean:A decent smith can get 2"@25m,M21.22 Lr Beretta.

The gun starts at 5" long, 11 ozs, ends up being .5" longer. Now that is truly a small gun, and that is really amazing accuracy from it. Some of the guns mentioned in this thread are no smaller or lighter than a Colt Woodsman, with a 4" barrel, and that is a target-gun.Bullet "placement" doesn't mean much unless it's to the head, with most pistol rounds. I would rather shoot a guy thru one lung with a good 223 softpoint, than through the heart with a .45 FMJ. The 223 might fail now and then, but it wouldn't be so as often as the .45 rd would fail. I have seen way too much of both, on animals, to believe otherwise. I would trust such a lung hit with the 223 softpoint to stop a charging pitbull, a lot more than I would the .45 fmj thru one's heart to have the same effect. I've seen the 55 gr 223 fmj put down deer every bit as "well" as does the 170 gr 30-30 softpoint, at the same ranges. Upon autopsy, the internal damage looked nearly identical.Numerous well-documented cases exist, where in the entire charge of buckshot, at a very few yards' range, from a 12 gauge, to the chest, did not stop a man. One of the most famous was the case wherein Jim Cirillo, the late 60's stakeout specialist for NYPD, in Harlem, shot a guy in the chest with his 14" barreled Ithaca 12 gauge, at a range of about 6 ft. Jim said he saw a bloody rathole thru the man. The guy turned and ran, and Jim again shot him in the chest, and the guy just kept on running. Jim's partner fired at the guy, with a .38 special,and the guy fell, because the .38 broke his hip. The guy came up on his hands and knees, and Jim shot him yet again, but a glass door took most of the buckshot's energy. The guy came back up on his hands and knees yet again, and said:"Hey man, that's enough", and died in the ambulance. So it is not smart to be kidding yourself about the "power" of .45 fmj.

I believe that I also read of some militia-type, who, when confronted by the cops, said:" I don't think so", and reached for his openly worn pistol. The cops had to hit him with something over 20 rds to stop him. I forget the caliber or the load that the cops were using, but it sure wasn't .22's, or .32's. I have several times shot groundhogs with .45 fmj's, swc's, and lrn's, and all they did was roll and get back on their feet. Those sorts of loads are nothing much in the stopping-effect department.

Sorry, without a monicrom of support for your assertations, I fail to see any value to them.

VLD bullets are great for benchrest shooters. At 600 yards, the difference between a 70 or 75gr round that you can shoot through your gun and an 80gr bullet you can't aren't worth the kilobytes you are taking up on this server and the cache of every sucker that looked at the thread for emperical data. Good day.