Tombstone.


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V4Vendetta
January 27, 2006, 12:24 AM
In the movie, what revolvers did Doc Holliday use? I saw the movie recently & was impressed with Doc's character a great deal.

"It appears my hypocrasy knows no bounds.":cool:

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Harve Curry
January 27, 2006, 12:59 AM
Colt SAA. Thell Reed was the armorer, and taught Val Kilmer how to use them. Peter Sherayko researched and supplied most of the original weapons.

V4Vendetta
January 27, 2006, 11:05 AM
What caliber? I'm thinking of getting one or two for some fun.:cool:

SASS#23149
January 27, 2006, 12:45 PM
why,45COLT of course.!! :)

f4t9r
January 27, 2006, 03:23 PM
that movie is one of the best , and now we know the gun !!!!!
"I'm your huckleberry"

V4Vendetta
January 27, 2006, 03:41 PM
I didn't like the movie too much. Doc was the only good thing about it.

Biker
January 27, 2006, 03:44 PM
Actually, Doc said, according to Kilmer and history, "I'm your Hucklebearer".
Hucklebearers being those who carried coffins at a funeral in the old south. Arguable, but likely true.
I loved the movie (I have a well used copy), but at the OK Corral, Doc fires three rounds out of a double-barreled dozen gauge without reloading. Ah well...
Biker

f4t9r
January 27, 2006, 03:47 PM
Really !!!! I have seen it several times and did not know that.
I miss quoted several times if thats the case.

Still love the movie !!!!!!

Biker
January 27, 2006, 03:51 PM
Well, with 'Doc's' accent it could be heard either way. One of my southern Bros told me about the Hucklebearer thing and I did some digging.
Mr Google helped a lot!:) A great movie it is...
Biker

V4Vendetta
January 27, 2006, 04:03 PM
I didn't like it's anti-gun message. In my opinion, since Virgil banned the good folks from being armed, he deserved to be shot.:mad: As for Wyatt himself, I don't recall who he shot back in Dodge that made him not feel like killing bad people but if he felt like he was gonna lose sleep over killing folks like Johnny Ringo or Curly Bill, he needed mental help.

Rupestris
January 27, 2006, 04:06 PM
Best scene/dialog in the film:

(At the pharo table in the Orient)


Johnny Ringo: [Ringo steps up to Doc] And you must be Doc Holliday.
Doc Holliday: That's the rumor.
Johnny Ringo: You retired too?
Doc Holliday: Not me. I'm in my prime.
Johnny Ringo: Yeah, you look it.
Doc Holliday: And you must be Ringo. Look, darling, Johnny Ringo. The deadliest pistoleer since Wild Bill, they say. What do you think, darling? Should I hate him?
Kate: You don't even know him.
Doc Holliday: Yes, but there's just something about him. Something around the eyes, I don't know, reminds me of... me. No. I'm sure of it, I hate him.
Wyatt Earp: [to Ringo] He's drunk.
Doc Holliday: In Vino Veritas.
[In wine is truth. - Meaning - "When I'm drinking, I speak my mind."]
Johnny Ringo: Age Quod Agis.
[Do what you do. - Meaning - "Do what you do best."]
Doc Holliday: Credat Judaeus Apella, Non Ego. The Jew Apella may believe it, not I.
[Meaning, "Oh I don't believe drinking is what I do best."]
Johnny Ringo: Eventus Stultorum Magister.
[Events are the teachers of fools. - Meaning - "Fools have to learn by experience."]
Doc Holliday: In Pace Requiescat.
[Rest In Peace - Meaning - "It's Your Funeral!"]

...Doc Holliday: Evidently Mr. Ringo's an educated man. Now I really hate him.

:D

TexasRifleman
January 27, 2006, 04:12 PM
I didn't like it's anti-gun message. In my opinion, since Virgil banned the good folks from being armed, he deserved to be shot.


It's hard not to have that in the film, since that actually happened in real life.

How exactly would you re-tell a historical event if you changed everything in it?


Oh wait, you'd have "A Million Little Pieces".

Since there was a law in Tombstone making open carry illegal, why is the film all of a sudden anti? Violating that ordinance is what caused the fight at the OK corral.

V4Vendetta
January 27, 2006, 04:21 PM
The movie wasn't accurate on several things. For instance, Wyat & Virgil arrived in Tombstone with another of their brothers. I think it was James. Morgan appeared later. Also Morgan was actually shot a year AFTER Virgil.

I know that ordinance is what started the fight. I'm just saying that the ordinance shouldn't have been made to begin with.

robear
January 27, 2006, 04:26 PM
Rupestris,

Thanks for the latin translation. I always wondered what Doc and Ringo were saying to each other. :)

R

f4t9r
January 27, 2006, 04:30 PM
I didn't like it's anti-gun message. In my opinion, since Virgil banned the good folks from being armed, he deserved to be shot.:mad: As for Wyatt himself, I don't recall who he shot back in Dodge that made him not feel like killing bad people but if he felt like he was gonna lose sleep over killing folks like Johnny Ringo or Curly Bill, he needed mental help.

Amazing how we can watch the same movie and see it completely different.
Thats what makes the world go round I guess
I believe Wyatt (in the Movie) could only be pushed so far befor he went and got a gun and let them all have it, hes killing everybody near the end

HEY Biker what is the line "Tellem Im comming and Hell's comming with me" ??

Biker
January 27, 2006, 04:33 PM
Rupestris,

Thanks for the latin translation. I always wondered what Doc and Ringo were saying to each other. :)

R
Ditto that! I knew "In vino veritas" but after that...
:confused:
Biker

Rupestris
January 27, 2006, 04:42 PM
Rupestris,

Thanks for the latin translation. I always wondered what Doc and Ringo were saying to each other. :)

R

I can't take credit for that. I found the translations on IMDB.com.
Once you understand what they're saying it makes the scene hilarious.

Another laugh out loud scene is with Doc and Ike playin' poker.

"Maybe pokers just not your game Ike. I know! Lets have a spelling contest."
L :D L

mustanger98
January 27, 2006, 04:44 PM
It's hard not to have that in the film, since that actually happened in real life.

How exactly would you re-tell a historical event if you changed everything in it?


Oh wait, you'd have "A Million Little Pieces".

Since there was a law in Tombstone making open carry illegal, why is the film all of a sudden anti? Violating that ordinance is what caused the fight at the OK corral.

This part reminds me of a documentary on the History Channel... they said what it boiled down to was a conflict of interests between town people- business who carried concealed- and outside town people who adapted their carry to fit the way they dressed going about ranch work (even if they were in all actuallity outlaws). Somebody said Morgan Earp drew from his waistband at small-of-back under his suit coat much like a modern narcotics cop. Neither side was willing to see it from the other's point of view, so it came to a shootout. Simple as that, or so they said.

f4t9r
January 27, 2006, 04:47 PM
I can't take credit for that. I found the translations on IMDB.com.
Once you understand what they're saying it makes the scene hilarious.

Another laugh out loud scene is with Doc and Ike playin' poker.

"Maybe pokers just not your game Ike. I know! Lets have a spelling contest."
L :D L

That was a good find and your right I will laugh next time now that I know whats being said !!!!good job.
The poker statement is funny.

M.E.Eldridge
January 27, 2006, 04:53 PM
Actually, Doc said, according to Kilmer and history, "I'm your Hucklebearer".
Hucklebearers being those who carried coffins at a funeral in the old south. Arguable, but likely true.
I loved the movie (I have a well used copy), but at the OK Corral, Doc fires three rounds out of a double-barreled dozen gauge without reloading. Ah well...
Biker

I believe Doc only fires two shots.One of them is shown from two angles,though,leading it to appear as though he fires three.

I found Tombstone to be very entertaing,much more so than Costner's Wyatt Earp

TexasRifleman
January 27, 2006, 05:02 PM
Costner's Wyatt Earp

That was a truly horrible movie.

Never did understand why 2 studios thought it was a good idea to introduce the same movie at the same time. One was bound to be a clear winner and one a clear loser.

Moonclip
January 27, 2006, 06:02 PM
The shotgun used at the OK corrall was actually a 10 gauge I believe and the people Holliday hit with it were the only ones hit and not able to return fire. Food for thought even though the men there were using pretty large handgun calibers I assume. Anyone know the exasct handguns and calibers uesed there? I assume mainly 44.40s and 45LC.

Old Fuff
January 27, 2006, 07:21 PM
Ah, the fun of reading “the truth” about Tombstone… :rolleyes:

Anyway, the shotgun carried by “Doc” was one that belonged to Wells Fargo, and to this day the gauge is unknown. It was reserved for Virgil Earp, who was the Town Marshal (or Chief of Police, depending on what account you read). Virgil had picked up the shotgun earlier in the day, and before starting the march up to, and down Fremont Street handed Holliday the shotgun. Why? Because he was wearing a long overcoat (which the Earp’s weren’t) and Virgil wanted the scattergun covered so that his party would look less confrontational. In turn, Virgil took a cane that Doc was carrying.

According to the Coroner, the only one hit by a shotgun was Tom McLaury. His brother Frank and Billy Clanton were done in with revolver bullets. On the other side, Virgil and Morgan Earp, as well as Doc Holliday were wounded by revolver fire.

It may come as a shock to some, but the records of the Coroner’s Inquest as well as the Preliminary Hearing when the Earps and Holliday were charged with murder (and exonerated) are available. The information contained within represent the best source of information, as they were compiled no later then a month after the shooting. Thereafter the fiction writers and storytellers got in their two cents worth.

Tombstone (the movie) was great entertainment, but poor history… :)

Matt-man
January 27, 2006, 07:43 PM
I remember an article in Guns quite a ways back, talking about the guns and the gear. They mentioned that Wyatt used a 3-trigger Stevens 10 gauge double. Now... what does a double-barreled shotgun need three triggers for?

ETA: Nevermind, I found it in another thread. The front trigger opens the action.

Old Fuff
January 27, 2006, 08:07 PM
Like most guns supposedly associated with famous western personalities, the history of the Stevens shotgun in question is…. Well…. Questionable. :uhoh:

If one wishes to believe the story, this shotgun was carried by Wyatt Earp after the misnamed O.K. Corral gunfight – during a time he and a posse were hunting down the suspected killers of his brother Morgan, and following the wounding of Virgil during an ambush in Tombstone. If the story’s true he used the shotgun to kill Wm. (Curly Bill) Brocious.

However Wyatt didn’t carry any shotgun to the famous “street fight,” as it was called at the time.

But he did unquestionably prefer a double-barreled shotgun for situations where a six-shooter wouldn’t do, such as quelling a mob, or riding as a guard on a stagecoach.

Frandy
January 27, 2006, 08:20 PM
Actually, Doc said, according to Kilmer and history, "I'm your Hucklebearer".

Well, "history" says more than one thing about this. As an editor, I love language, though admittedly I only dabble in etymology for fun.

There are both historical dictionaries (I believe Random House for one) and literary accounts that validate the term huckleberry as being the right person for the situation but also someone unimportant to be dismissed.

Here's a source to consider. It's not the only one but a pretty good one.

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-huc1.htm

The truth? I can't be sure, but I'd lay my dollar on "huckleberry." :D

Shotgun12
January 27, 2006, 08:25 PM
As much as I hate to say it; since I've never considered myself a "movie fan".... I've watched this flic more times than I'd care to admit.
Movies are movies .... 'accuracy' aside, this is an outstanding piece of entertainment, 'course it didn't hurt the movie a bit .... having Dana Delany, in it. ;)

_______

JohnKSa
January 27, 2006, 10:42 PM
WARNING! BEFORE reading farther, please read the disclaimer at the end of the post.I believe Doc only fires two shots.One of them is shown from two angles,though,leading it to appear as though he fires three.Exactly correct. Two of the shots are actually only one shot shown both from the shooter's and the shootee's vantage points.

lawson
January 27, 2006, 10:59 PM
it's not so accurate, but still one of my favorite movies.

keep in mind that it's a movie, and the actors are playing romanticized versions of historical figures.

IndianaDean
January 27, 2006, 11:23 PM
This part reminds me of a documentary on the History Channel... they said what it boiled down to was a conflict of interests between town people- business who carried concealed- and outside town people who adapted their carry to fit the way they dressed going about ranch work (even if they were in all actuallity outlaws). Somebody said Morgan Earp drew from his waistband at small-of-back under his suit coat much like a modern narcotics cop. Neither side was willing to see it from the other's point of view, so it came to a shootout. Simple as that, or so they said.

I believe that was Wild West Tech that had that info. Tombstone is also the movie is it not, where one of the Earp brothers hands Doc the shotgun before they head to the battle? Because my understanding is in real life Doc already had it and usually favored the shotgun over pistols.

joab
January 27, 2006, 11:42 PM
Actually, Doc said, according to Kilmer and history, "I'm your Hucklebearer".According to my old southern background and upbringing that makes a whole lot more sense.

I loved Tombstone so much that I watched it almost continuously for about a week when I first got satellite TV and it was alway on one channel or another, I've also worn out two tapes so far, but Costner s film was more historically accurate.
To me Tombstone was reminiscent of the old studio movies like the Longest Day where every star and character actor had a part.
.
When the two movies were being made the Wyatt Earp crew were complaining that they couldn't get proper props because Tombstone had scarfed them all up. Watching the movie pretty much verifies that

slzy
January 28, 2006, 12:28 AM
i read somewhere that the expressions containing the word "daisy" was a catch phrase at the time and was used ad infintium. the piece implied the early versions of valley girls used it. the movie hour of the gun picks the story up with the hearing before JOP welles spicer. james garner as wyatt jason robards as doc.

mustanger98
January 28, 2006, 12:33 AM
I believe that was Wild West Tech that had that info. Tombstone is also the movie is it not, where one of the Earp brothers hands Doc the shotgun before they head to the battle? Because my understanding is in real life Doc already had it and usually favored the shotgun over pistols.

Wild West Tech did have some info on the "OK Corral" gunfight, but so have many other programs. IMO, the "OK Corral" gunfight has been done, redone, undone, and overdone so many times it gets old when taken by itself.

Tombstone is the film where an Earp brother hands Doc the shotgun. It don't mean Doc didn't have a revolver, but my understanding was he preferred a self-cocker such as a 1877 or 1878 Colt for his sidearm. However, it was documented that his preference over a sidearm was a pistol-gripped sawed-off shotgun. Louis L'Amour also covered this in some analysis of history vs. Hollywierd and other media.

Old Fuff
January 28, 2006, 12:49 AM
IndianaDean:

Tombstone is also the movie is it not, where one of the Earp brothers hands Doc the shotgun before they head to the battle? Because my understanding is in real life Doc already had it and usually favored the shotgun over pistols.

Nope: The court transcripts say that for once the move was correct. Virgil had obtained the shotgun from the Tombstone Wells-Fargo Office prior to the fight when an excited citizen told him that Wyatt was about to take on the whole cowboy crowd at the local gunshop, where they were stocking up on extra ammunition. Later when he dicided to arrest the bunch he handed the shotgun to Holliday and told him to carry it under his long overcoat. (It was a cold and blustery late October day in Tombstone). In exchange Virgil accepted Doc's cane, which he carried in his right hand. There is nothing in the historical records to show that Holliday prefered a shotgun, before - then - or after.

Ya really should read the testimony, it's much more interesting then any fiction. :)

Edited to add: Doc did indeed have a revolver, described as nickel plated - and the finish played an important part in the real story. In an unrelated fight he was described as having a ".41 self-cocker," but this may or may not be the one he used at the big shootout. As a side note, he carried it in a cross-draw holster.

Cosmoline
January 28, 2006, 12:54 AM
I didn't like it's anti-gun message. In my opinion, since Virgil banned the good folks from being armed, he deserved to be shot.:mad: As for Wyatt himself, I don't recall who he shot back in Dodge that made him not feel like killing bad people but if he felt like he was gonna lose sleep over killing folks like Johnny Ringo or Curly Bill, he needed mental help.

Well, that's pretty much the way it played out. The film is certainly more accurate than most versions of the event, though it too makes the Earps look far more heroic than they ever were in real life. The dispute between the factions had a lot to do with Democrat v. Republican partisan fighting in the post-Civil War west. This was not the first nor the last time these fights got bloody. The "cow boys" saw the Earps as slick GOP pimps who fleeced the town with gambling and prostitution. The Earps saw their foes as Democratic scum who should be driven out of the territory for good. The custom and law of the city was to leave your arms at the first hotel you stopped at, but it was a murkey law and seldom enforced. That was merely the pretense used to force a confrontation that had been brewing for many months.

The current Red vs. Blue struggle in the US is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING compared with the intensity of party rivalry back then. It was grounds for gunfights, economic warfare and even disowning family members. It's also important to remember that the parties were quite different then than they are now. The GOP was the liberal party, not the Democratic.

Old Fuff
January 28, 2006, 01:59 AM
Originally Posted by V4Vendetta

I didn't like it's anti-gun message. In my opinion, since Virgil banned the good folks from being armed, he deserved to be shot. As for Wyatt himself, I don't recall who he shot back in Dodge that made him not feel like killing bad people but if he felt like he was gonna lose sleep over killing folks like Johnny Ringo or Curly Bill, he needed mental help.

So many opinions... So little knowledge... :rolleyes: :)

Virgil Earp didn't ban the "good people" from being armed. That came about because the mayor and town council passed a law requiring those who came into town to check their hardware at a hotel, saloon, or stable. The reason was that cowboys and others would get drunk and ride around and shoot at gaslights along the street. This caused a major fire hazard, and if one got started the town could (and did, twice) burn down. They were also tired of occasional shootouts in the street between "sporting men" (gamblers) - between themselves or disgruntled customers. For the record, that same kind of statute existed in most of the western boom towns – including Dodge City, Kansas.

And no, the fight wasn’t the result of Republican vs. Democrat politics. If one reads the court transcripts and the testimony of some 30 eyewitnesses, with the entire record being compiled within about a month after the fight when recollections were fresh; they will learn what really happened.

It is true that the Sheriff, John Behan (a Democrat) was aligned with the “cowboy” gangs, and the Earps (Republicans) were backed by the town’s principal businessmen with Wells-Fargo and the Southern Pacific Railroad, but this had little or no effect on the reasons for the shootout, which simply centered around a law enforcement issue, and some personal animus between the people involved.

joab
January 28, 2006, 02:17 AM
Ya really should read the testimony, it's much more interesting then any fictionDo you have a link or source. that would be interesting.

There was an old movie I believe it was My Darling Clementine that supposedly depicted the shootout according to Earps own account.

The feud that caused the friction between the Earps and Clantons started long before and was centered around Republican businessman and Democrat rancher politics according to the accounts that I have read

Harve Curry
January 28, 2006, 03:29 AM
Peter Sherayko (Texas Jack & the Buckaroo's coordinator) wrote a book recently about the guns used in the movie "Tombstone". He hired me after the 1st month of filming to work on the movie as part of the Buckaroo's portraying Ike's cowboy gang. We had to show up with all of our own firearms, saddles, horses, and all clothes and equipments correct for the time period of 1881.
I was also the downstairs waiter in the Bird Cage Theater.
It was summer in southern Arizona, we camped on the west end of the movie set called Mescal. Hot and humid. 14 to 16 hour days, two meals a day. Sometimes our day was night to sun up, then try and sleep. We filmed on the dry lake called Willcox Playa (opens the movie), down south of Sonoita on the Boboquivare Ranch(spl?), Old Tucson town and sound stage, Hauchuca Mnts, Catalina Mnts at Sabino canyon.

I got to meet alot of good people and wouldn't trade that time for anything.

A couple years later I did try to get on Kevin Costner's the "Postman" movie but I probably would have had a better chance not mentioning I worked on "Tombstone".

I think the movie helped bring attention to the "no carry' law in Tombstone, because shortly after that it was defeated as being in conflict with the Arizona state constitution.

Windhover45
January 28, 2006, 03:35 AM
There was an old movie I believe it was My Darling Clementine that supposedly depicted the shootout according to Earps own account.



***SPOILER ALERT***















My Darling Clementine starring Henry Fonda (Wyatt Earp) and Victor Mature (Doc Holida) most assuredly did not depict the shootout according to Earp's own account, since Doc Holiday gets killed in it.

odysseus
January 28, 2006, 04:37 AM
Did anyone like Kevin Costner's "Wyat Earp" movie? There were pretty good scenes in that one.

Cosmoline
January 28, 2006, 05:28 AM
And no, the fight wasn’t the result of Republican vs. Democrat politics. If one reads the court transcripts and the testimony of some 30 eyewitnesses, with the entire record being compiled within about a month after the fight when recollections were fresh; they will learn what really happened.

Fluff--I suspect the underlying partisan aspects weren't spelled out in the court transcript, but there's no doubt partisan politics played a central role in the fighting before and after the OK shootout. The Earps were the leaders of the Tombstone Republicans. Behan and the Cow Boys were Democrats, and mostly Southern Democrats to boot. The groups were natural enemies, and had after all just finished fighting the Civil War. The Republican town elements led by the Earps were primarily from the north and included GAR vets such as Virgil Earp. Spicer, who refused to indict the Earps or Holliday for the OK killings, was also a staunch Republican. It's also important to note the importance of Earps' partisan political background in his jobs knocking heads in Kansas.

Cosmoline
January 28, 2006, 05:33 AM
My Darling Clementine starring Henry Fonda (Wyatt Earp) and Victor Mature (Doc Holida) most assuredly did not depict the shootout according to Earp's own account, since Doc Holiday gets killed in it.

It also featured the Earps as CATTLE DROVERS of all things! Instead of lasting a few minutes, the OK shootout goes on and on and stretches out over a cattle yard and other parts of town. It's not even a very good Western, though in its day it was well respected.

Byron Quick
January 28, 2006, 05:52 AM
The Republican partisanship of Doc Holliday is kind of difficult to square with his personal history in Macon and Valdosta, the Radical Republicans handling of Reconstruction, and the hatred of all Southerners for all things Republican. An attitude that only began to die in the past thirty years. I can remember when southern conservatives hawked and spit at the mention of the Republican Party. This, of course, was before conservatives were purged from the Democratic Party.

joab
January 28, 2006, 09:29 AM
My Darling Clementine starring Henry Fonda (Wyatt Earp) and Victor Mature (Doc Holida) most assuredly did not depict the shootout according to Earp's own account, since Doc Holiday gets killed in it.
Clemetine also depicted the Clantons killing a younger brother who was actually an older brother as the start of the feud and the reason Wyatt became Marshal when he only became a deputy. So it wasn't MDC
Maybe it was Shootout at OK Corral. It was one of the old westerns from that era.



I found many of the scenes in Wyatt Erap to be more believable, like the river bed shootout with Curly Bill

Harve Curry
January 28, 2006, 03:25 PM
Kevin Jarre (spl?) was the original director and writer of the movie "Tombstone". The movie would have been alot different if Geo. P. Cosmotos hadn't replaced Kevin Jarre as director. I think it was July 1993.
I can't say if it would have been better or more accurate film, but either way would have been successful.

Old Fluff is right about reading the original accounts, the Judge Wells Spicer decision. Politics was important then as now.

About the no carry firearms laws. It surprises me that the law lasted as long as it did. Coming and going into the town of Tombstone prior to Geronimo's surrender in 1886. Hostile Apache country in all directions around the city limits. Outlaws and renegades persisted for decades after. How could anyone travel and not be inconvienced by turning in their weapons and then having to get them back so they could leave town. I would have had a problem with that law myself.

Cosmoline
January 28, 2006, 03:49 PM
The Republican partisanship of Doc Holliday is kind of difficult to square with his personal history in Macon and Valdosta, the Radical Republicans handling of Reconstruction, and the hatred of all Southerners for all things Republican.

I don't know that Doc was terribly political. He was too young to fight in the war, and I don't know his official affiliation. He didn't seem to have much love for the southern dems in Tombstone, though.

joab
January 28, 2006, 06:47 PM
Doc was an aristocrat maybe cowboys were looked down on.
He also was a self made outcast that was accepted by Wyatt Earp as a friend.

To some people the bonds of friendship are as tight as they are for family

Harve Curry
January 28, 2006, 09:29 PM
Try this link:
http://www.caravanwest.com/article.html
for more info on the guns used in making the movie Tombstone.

Old Fuff
January 28, 2006, 10:04 PM
Well let’s see. There’s a whole lot of things I can sink my teeth into here. :D

I think the movie helped bring attention to the "no carry' law in Tombstone, because shortly after that it was defeated as being in conflict with the Arizona state constitution.

No Harve, the movie didn’t have a thing too do with it. :uhoh:

When Arizona became a state 1912 a number of cities were given the option of retaining their Territorial Charters. Tombstone was one that did so, thus its gun ordinance was grand fathered, and presumably constitutionally permissible.

Tombstone has always been proud of its “town too tough to die” and wild-west image, and prone to push it for fun and profit. Consequently several reenactment groups put on “shoot’um-up” gunfights and shows for tourists and whoever else who might enjoy them. Unfortunately, on several occasions mentally deranged individuals who were still living in “the West that was,” showed up with real revolvers, loaded with real cartridges, ready to have a real gunfight with an unsuspecting actor set up with blanks. Luckily they were disarmed before anyone got hurt or killed, but this was the reason modern town marshals preferred an environment where everyone wasn’t allowed to walk around with a six-shooter. People were allowed to enter and leave while carrying, but not walk the streets while heeled.

But when a resident, backed by outside money, threatened to bring a court suit the Town Council, acting on its attorney’s advice, decided to repeal the law rather then get involved in a long and costly court action. Obviously this was an unusual situation, and not the pro-gun / anti-gun issue that it might first seem.

Fluff--I suspect the underlying partisan aspects weren't spelled out in the court transcript, but there's no doubt partisan politics played a central role in the fighting before and after the OK shootout. The Earps were the leaders of the Tombstone Republicans. Behan and the Cow Boys were Democrats, and mostly Southern Democrats to boot. The groups were natural enemies, and had after all just finished fighting the Civil War. The Republican town elements led by the Earps were primarily from the north and included GAR vets such as Virgil Earp. Spicer, who refused to indict the Earps or Holliday for the OK killings, was also a staunch Republican. It's also important to note the importance of Earps' partisan political background in his jobs knocking heads in Kansas.

The Earp’s weren’t leaders in Tombstone in any context possibly law enforcers, and they weren’t especially partisan either.

When Wyatt first came into the area he passed through Tucson. There, Bob Paul, the Sheriff of Pima County, and a Democrat, offered him a job as “the” deputy sheriff in Tombstone. Wyatt declined, until Paul pointed out that he would also be the tax collector, and be able to keep a percentage. This news caused Wyatt to change his mind, and Republican/Democrat politics didn’t enter into his decision.:scrutiny:

Later, when Pima County was split in two, the southern half became Cochise County with Tombstone as its seat. Wyatt lobbied to be appointed as the first sheriff, but the legislature in Prescott picked John Behan (a Democrat) instead. So much for Wyatt’s political pull. As a matter of record, Wyatt, Virgil and Mogan (the so-called “fighting Earps) never held an elective office in either Kansas or Arizona. :what:

In Tombstone, the power structure consisted of the most influential businessmen and mine owners. They and/or their representatives dominated the Town Council, while the Mayor, John Clum owned and operated the Tombstone Epitaph newspaper. Both Wells-Fargo and the Southern Pacific Railroad were associated with this group. All might be considered to be Republicans, but their common interest was to exterminate the “cowboys” (a code word denoting rustlers, stagecoach robbers, and outlaws of all stripes) so that the country would be civilized, and a safe place to make investments and thereby more money. :evil:

The three Earp brothers were all employed as “Special Agents” by Wells Fargo; and the Southern Pacific Railroad along with the Tombstone business community often financed the Earps in they’re law enforcement duties. As such they became the point of the spear, in the overall effort against the cowboy element. While Sheriff John Bean had aligned his office with some of the cowboys and their supporters – seeking support within the county, but outside of the city of Tombstone where he had minimal influence – this can hardly be seen in a Republican/Democrat political context.

The O.K. Corral gunfight (called the “street fight” at the time) was more then anything an accident. As the Town Marshal, Virgil was obligated to enforce its laws, and his arrest records show that he did so fairly evenhandedly. The Clanton’s and McLaury’s told Sheriff Behan that they wouldn’t take off their arms unless the Earps did likewise. As the town’s peace officers they wouldn’t even consider doing this. Piece after piece dropped into place, and when Virgil (not Wyatt) decided he had to make an arrest, what happened was probably inevitable.

While the fight was an isolated incident, its long-term effects were not. But that’s another story.

The feud that caused the friction between the Earps and Clantons started long before and was centered around Republican businessman and Democrat rancher politics according to the accounts that I have read

Not quite. While the businessmen (as described above) wanted to exterminate the cowboy element, legitimate ranchers, such as Henry Hooker and John Slaughter also supported the Earps. The Clanton’s and McLaury’s did a lot of business in cattle, but neither had a registered brand in Cochise County where their alleged ranches were located. The same could be said about some of they’re friends and associates. :scrutiny:


Do you have a link or source. That would be interesting. (To O.K. Corral court transcripts).

Yes I do. At the time, Tombstone and Cochise County had a fully functioning court system. Records were kept, and assigned numbers for filing purposes. We are interested in two of these:

Document #48. The Coroner’s Inquest: This was held shortly after the fight, to legally determine what caused the deaths of Thomas and Franklin McLaury, and William Clanton. Some 10 witnesses testified, including the Coroner himself. While the Inquest came to an obvious conclusion, they only concerned themselves with determining that cause, and not justification.

Document #94. Later, William McLaury (a bother of the deceased Frank and Tom) and Ike Clanton (a brother of Billy Clanton) had the Earps and Holliday charged with murder. A Preliminary Hearing, taking up almost a month (December 1881) was held in Wells Spicer’s Justice Court. Some 30 witnesses testified, including a few that had been at the Coroner’s Inquest. The eyewitness testimony is to say the least, very interesting.

Incidentally, while a Republican, Wells Spicer ended up exonerating the Earp’s and Holliday, he invited the County Grand Jury (made up mostly of Democrats) to file they’re own indictment if they disagreed with his decision. However no such indictment was forthcoming. Clearly, partisan politics wasn’t an issue.

While these documents existed for many decades, relatively few people knew about them. But in 1981, Alford E Turner, a noted and respected researcher in the field, arranged to have the two above cited documents copied verbatim. The only changes he made were to correct some spelling errors and punctuation. Any comments he made were relegated to footnotes. The result was then published, and as a consequence anyone who is interested can obtain a copy. :)

The O.K. Corral Inquest – edited by Alford E Turner.
ISBN 0-932702 -16-3
Creative Publishing Co.
Box 9292 College Station, TX 77840

Catbird
January 28, 2006, 10:12 PM
If you go to this website, there are some "Memorable Quotes" from the movie Tombstone.

Just FYI: They quote Doc as saying "huckleberry" not "hucklebearer" in at least two places in the movie.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108358/quotes

Catbird
January 28, 2006, 10:17 PM
Also, see here:

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-huc1.htm

Old Fuff
January 28, 2006, 10:36 PM
Harve:

I went to the link you posted. It was very intersting, but concerning Bukskin Frank Leslie's letter and order to Colt for an extra-long barreled revolver, it (the original letter) reads:

Colt Frontier Model to take Winchester Cartridges .44 Cal. the revolver to have a twelve (12) inch barrel, browned, superior finished throughout with carved ivory handle, also send scabbard or belt with everything complete for carrying & cleaning the Pistol ...

Wyatt simply described his revolver's barrel length to be "about a foot long."

Shotgun12
January 29, 2006, 01:10 AM
Wondered if anyone else noticed, what appears to be a Masonic emblem, worn around the neck of the one fellow - believe it was Turkey Creek Jack Johnson (guy with the blue shirt) .... who along with the other men, that had "dropped" from the Cowboy's gang, and fell-in-line with the Earps.
Could this be historical 'point in fact' .... or just something that has no relevant basis, to the historical accuracy of actual events?
Would anyone, by chance know, if any of the Earps .... Doc, or others, may have been Masons .... and if so; what part may this have played in any "alliances", (or lack of) .... or how it may have affected how certain situations 'played out' .... instead of being due only to "political affiliations"?

Harve Curry
January 29, 2006, 01:05 PM
Thanks Old Fluff for straightening me out on how the carry law was repealed.

There was a reason why Peter Sherayko chose that 10", you could contact him on that link for Caravan West Productions, that's him. He also wrote a book about it.

Is it just me or do all the billboards advertising Tombstone have Wyatt's likeness looking like Kurt Russell:D , not Kevin Costner or any others.

Nanook
January 29, 2006, 01:32 PM
One of my favorite movies, and for the rest of my life whenever someone mentions Doc Holliday I'll see Val Kilmer's face. He absolutely stole that movie with his portrayal of Holliday.

rick newland
January 29, 2006, 02:37 PM
I have researched everything I could about Tombstone, but when it comes to real AZ lawman this one is hard to beat.
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=7998295&pt=Commodore%20Owens

RonC
January 29, 2006, 02:44 PM
There are two articles on testimony of an eye witness to the OK Corral shootout named Sills. One is a court transcription, the other, a newspaper article.

To see both, go to the Western Outlaw and Lawman History Society:
http://www.westernoutlaw.com/

Ron

Old Fuff
January 29, 2006, 03:11 PM
This is a good site to bookmark. :cool:

The articles mentioned are in .PDF format, so you may want to download them for later reading rather the doing so on-line.

Old Fuff
January 29, 2006, 03:15 PM
Is it just me or do all the billboards advertising Tombstone have Wyatt's likeness looking like Kurt Russell , not Kevin Costner or any others.

Well I think that Russell did steal the show... :D

Now if they had just got rid of that silly shoulder holster... :neener:

Harve Curry
January 29, 2006, 03:53 PM
I hear Frank Stillwell has a marker now near where Earp killed him in Tucson.
Last time I was there I couldn't find it, but there is a reallly neat railroad display and locomotives.
On another note; when I visited there the depot clerk told me John Dillinger was handcuffed to the bench inside.

IndianaDean
January 29, 2006, 08:20 PM
IndianaDean:



Nope: The court transcripts say that for once the move was correct. Virgil had obtained the shotgun from the Tombstone Wells-Fargo Office prior to the fight when an excited citizen told him that Wyatt was about to take on the whole cowboy crowd at the local gunshop, where they were stocking up on extra ammunition.......
Ya really should read the testimony, it's much more interesting then any fiction. :)

Edited to add: Doc did indeed have a revolver, described as nickel plated - and the finish played an important part in the real story. In an unrelated fight he was described as having a ".41 self-cocker," but this may or may not be the one he used at the big shootout. As a side note, he carried it in a cross-draw holster.

Cool. Yes I will have to read that. I enjoy that stuff. I recently read a book on Jesse James that exposed what an evil SOB he really was, but that period (late 1850s) was really messed up.

joab
January 29, 2006, 08:27 PM
but that period (late 1850s)More like late 60s and early 70s. James was a product of the Civil War and Reconstruction

Shootcraps
January 29, 2006, 10:01 PM
Tombstone is an awesome movie. IMHO, Val Kilmer deserves an Oscar for his portrayal of Doc.

mbs357
January 29, 2006, 10:21 PM
I heard that Wyatt Earp never recieved a gunshot wound, is that true?

IndianaDean
January 29, 2006, 10:32 PM
I was thinking the turmoil that begat the violence in Missouri and Kansas during the War Between the States began in the late 1850s.

Old Fuff
January 29, 2006, 10:47 PM
mbs357:

That is supposedly true. He was vey lucky to say the least. He had some holes through his clothing, but not through him. :D

Old Fuff
January 29, 2006, 10:58 PM
IndianaDean:

You are right about the pre-Civil War fighting in Kansas and Missouri, but the James family seems to have not been affected until after the war started. Then abuse by Union soldiers and irregular supporters caused first Frank and then Jesse to join Quantrill’s Raiders. The rest is history. They were without question, hard men during a hard time.

V4Vendetta
January 30, 2006, 01:02 PM
Has this happened to anyone else?

My family & I had just got through watching Tombstone. Dad asks my mom to pour him a glass of Pepsi. I tell her "Your a daisy if you do.:D " She just about falls on the floor laughing. Of course she'll laugh if I say "cardboard" in a funny voice.:rolleyes:

What does that term "daisy" mean?

Harve Curry
January 31, 2006, 01:03 PM
Daisy.
As I understand it , it's 1880's slang.
Like nowadays saying neat, cool, far out, man, dah, or whatever.......

tommygunm1a1
January 31, 2006, 04:55 PM
I didn't like the movie too much. Doc was the only good thing about it.

WOW,! ....cough,coughfairycough... :eek:

Only one other dude in all three pages mentioned the stunningly beautiful, Dana Delany.

Harve Curry
January 31, 2006, 09:11 PM
You should seen some of the stuff they left out of the movie:eek: , R would have been stretchin it:what:

V4Vendetta
January 31, 2006, 09:15 PM
"You should seen some of the stuff they left out of the movie , R would have been stretchin it"


What stuff?:confused:

Harve Curry
February 1, 2006, 01:56 PM
Sorry V4Vendetta, really not suitable for the high road, watch the movie and use your imagination where they might have gone a little further.

V4Vendetta
February 1, 2006, 02:22 PM
Oh.:barf: . I like the "Man With No Name" westerns the best. My close second favorite was "Josey Wales".

TexasRifleman
February 1, 2006, 04:10 PM
My close second favorite was "Josey Wales".

We had a 6 or 8 page thread on that a while back if I remember.... :D

That's a great one.

f4t9r
February 1, 2006, 05:55 PM
Well we can all watch with a whole new light on the movie next time we throw it in the CD or VCR player.

Lucky
March 30, 2007, 11:42 AM
Thanks again Rupestris, watched it again and it's much better knowing what they say. Also took a SS of the tombstones.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y149/54919391/LesterMoor.jpg?

Dave Workman
March 30, 2007, 12:11 PM
Would that include scenes of Russell and Delaney out on the prairie, uh, "mixing it up?" I've seen trailers that suggest a pretty good scene ended up on the cutting room floor.

Delaney was a stone fox in that film, gotta admit.

As for "Wyatt Earp," I really liked that film, too. I think it fleshed out the Earps as more than the heroes people tended to think them when Hugh O'Brien's series was on in the 1950s. I think Wyatt Earp had the better music score.

And Dennis Quaid's portrayal of Doc was phenomenal. I think Holliday's character steals the show in any of the Earp movies. Holliday might have been an interesting guy to know. Would have made a hell of an interview :D

"What's wrong with me? What have you got?! I'm dying of teburculosis. I sleep with the nastiest whore in Kansas. Everybody I know hates me...."

And when Costner simply replies.."Not everybody hates you" it sort of confirms his other statements, particularly about Doc's domestic situation. Great scene.

My only regret is that when the film came out on DVD, it was the original theatrical version, not the "director's cut" that I have on a dual VCR package, which was better and filled in a lot of blanks..

"When you find yourself in such a fight, hit first if you can, and when you do hit, hit to kill. Don't worry. You'll know when it comes to that. The Earps always know."

Rick O'Shea
March 30, 2007, 02:14 PM
One of my favorite scenes from the movie, that to me is the perfect illustration of "mindset", is when one of the bad guys holds a gun on Wyatt.

Wyatt looks him in the eyes, then takes the gun out of his hand and whaps him with it.

I cracked up, had to pause the movie, then had to explain my reaction to my wife.

Stump Water
March 30, 2007, 03:40 PM
Daisy?

'When a new slang phrase is wafted to this country via New York, the warmth of its reception is somewhat startling. "Paralyze" has had its run and "you paralyze me" is an exclamation that is going quietly down to its grave. But the "daisy" business is undergoing a painful revival, for we believe it has more venerable origin than the other. Last night on the Oakland boat we heard a young man, a clerk of some kind, remark to a companion, "she's a daisy" and a third time the vealy youth unctuously ejaculated, "They are daisies, every one of them." A few moments afterwards a grave and severe looking gentleman evidentally a minister of the gospel, confided in a loud tone to another grave looking party, possibly a deacon, "I assure you it was a daisy sermon." On the other side of the deck a stock dealer was assuring a friend that "it was a daisy mine" while on the upper deck a group of fiar girls were "daisying" everything at such a rate that the commonplace ferry boat seemed like a flower garden. We should like to be informed by some professor of slang, the true meaning of the adjective. It is certainly the most accomodating one in the language, for it applies to everything." ---June 10, 1881 The San Francisco Exchange'.

Caimlas
March 30, 2007, 09:11 PM
It's also important to remember that the parties were quite different then than they are now. The GOP was the liberal party, not the Democratic.

Uh, no. While the Republicans were anti-slavery, law and order types, the Democrats were anti-federalist, aggrarian types. Both sides had and have merit of their own, as well as substantial detractions. One side was not more 'liberal' or 'good' than the other.

Cosmoline
March 30, 2007, 10:36 PM
They were the more liberal and radical of the two parties. The Dems were the more conservative and reactionary. Look up "radical Republicans" for more info.

One side was not more 'liberal' or 'good' than the other.

Liberal is not the opposite of good, at least not in this context. You have to set all your modern notions aside.

MechAg94
March 30, 2007, 11:05 PM
Yeah, liberal and conservative did not mean the same thing then that they do now.

I liked Wyatt Earp. I thought Dennis Quaid played a better Doc Holiday character though I think that movie did a better job of fleshing out the characters.

IMHO, Tombstone was a flash in the pan rock star movie while Wyatt Earp was a bit more in depth and serious.

kansas45
March 30, 2007, 11:12 PM
Heck, I liked them both!

koja48
March 30, 2007, 11:12 PM
Two other great lines:

"I've got one for each of you."

And . . .

"My hypocrisy only goes so far."

Chongosuerte
March 31, 2007, 06:22 AM
My Great, Great, Great, Great-uncle was Old man Clanton.

Making Ike Clanton my 1st cousin, 4 times removed...or something like that.

Too bad he was an outlaw who got his butt kicked :banghead:


When I was in college I met a girl from Alaska who was kin to the Earps. Pretty interesting:)


And Kilmer as Doc is one of the best parts in movie history, IMHO.

Patriot-Brewer
March 31, 2007, 07:23 AM
Trivia.....

How many of you all caught the "Crazy Train" reference?

no. 5150 at the same time Wyatt goes on a man hunt towards the end. I
love hidden crap in movies.

Leanwolf
March 31, 2007, 03:03 PM
Well, so long as this is about "Wyatt Earp" in the flicks.... I still think that the all time best portrayal of "Wyatt Earp," was by Henry Fonda in MY DARLING CLEMENTINE.

Of course that movie was about 25% history and 75% fantasy.... no matter, Henry Fonda was still the best "Wyatt Earp!"
L.W.

L.W.

Dave Workman
March 31, 2007, 05:28 PM
Naw, Henry fonda was not the best Wyatt, IMHO. It's kind of a toss up between Kostner and Russell, IMNSHO, and Earp has been portrayed by a lot of people.

Joel McRae, Burt Lancaster, Hugh O'Brian, James Stewart, Bruce Boxleitner, Will Geer; heck, didn't Tom Mix even play Earp???

koja48
March 31, 2007, 05:56 PM
I agree with Dave (but we're both from WA State). Russell, #1.

"You gonna do somethin' or just stand there and bleed?"

Stauble
March 31, 2007, 06:58 PM
The Republican partisanship of Doc Holliday is kind of difficult to square with his personal history in Macon and Valdosa

if recolect correctly, i believe that i read somehere that Doc's father was in the confederate army

XLMiguel
March 31, 2007, 07:47 PM
FWIW, there's a good article in this month's AMerican Hangunner by Mas Ayoub recounting the gunfight from a historical perspective and how teh fight scene was not controlled afterwards, so there remains a good bit of ambiguity as to how it all really went down . . .

Pumpkinheaver
March 31, 2007, 09:25 PM
I liked the movie pretty well. Val Kilmer's portrayal of Doc was pretty good I thought.

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