[RyanM]

http://www.batons.com/al/ajr.htm

6 3/4" closed, 9.5" open, 9.5 oz. Has a 3 ounce weighted "Power Tip" identical to the ones on the newer full sized batons, so I would guess it hits harder than the small size suggests.

Monadnock Detective 16" friction lock is 6.5" closed and 14 oz. ASP 16" is 6.25" closed and 14.5 oz. Pretty much identical. Bigger and heavier than the Jr., with all that implies. Much harder to close. Larger diameter handle means a better grip, but not possible to just stick in a pocket, without looking "happy."

For all three, the lowest price I've been able to find is around $45 plus shipping.

So in the infinite wisdom of internet forumgoers, :neener: what's the best bet for personal self defense?

[doc jake]

9.5" open ? bad guys a bit close for my liking. But in a confined space I can see the advantage. any reason your looking at this short a batton or is it just for concealment ?

[RyanM]

Mostly for concealment. I'm looking for some kind of impact weapon as something in between bare hands and lethal force. Pepper spray would be an option, except it's really windy around here most of the time. Winds up to 35+ mph aren't uncommon.

Only impact weapon I have right now is a Comtech Stinger, which has pretty limited usefulness as a "less lethal" tool. That thing could easily rupture a liver or spleen, or break a rib badly enough to puncture a lung. But at the same time, it doesn't have much mass, so it's not useful for attacking the limbs, except as a pain compliance tool. Useful for those applications, certainly, but I already have a knife and sometimes (when not at college) a gun, for causing massive internal hemmorhaging, and I don't have any training in pain compliance stuff.

[hso]

I'd go with a longer baton. I carry an ASP 16 and have no problem concealing it even in shorts and t-shirt IWB. I've replaced the tailcap with a flashlight so that it looks like I'm carrying a flashlight.http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/police/batons/asp/images/baton_led.jpg

[doc jake]

people tend to see what they want to see, like the light idea. think if concelment is the main facter i would try for the longer batton myself.

[RyanM]

How well do friction locks stay open? And then just how hard are they to close? What little stick fighting I know involves using jabs and pokes quite a bit. But the smallest full sized Autolock looks like it'd be a little too big.

[JShirley]

ASP manual of arms involves 2 basic styles of strikes, one very powerful, and the other a recovery strike, and a push (with a hand on each end of the baton).

It's designed to be simple to learn and use.

Personally, I think the ASP locks up tightly enough to use a thrust. The worst that'll happen is the shaft will collapse, and you can alway reopen with a good swing/strike.

Ryan, I think the Stinger would work well against limbs. Think punching into the bicep, for instance, or into the large muscles in the upper leg.

John

[RyanM]

Sounding like an ASP + training is a good choice. Though I may look into whether anyplace is selling the old 16" autolocks with the regular rubber tip, at a decent price. I just prefer the idea of something that locks open, and doesn't need to be "whipped" out.

Ryan, I think the Stinger would work well against limbs. Think punching into the bicep, for instance, or into the large muscles in the upper leg.

Well, the problem with attacking the large muscle groups is they're often far enough back that it's just as easy, maybe easier, to hit the torso. At least that's how it seems to me. Further down on the limbs a Stinger wouldn't have as much if an effect other than extreme pain, except it may be able to break the small bones in the hand, on a really good hit. I'm sure the Stinger is a much more effective weapon than I can use it as, but I just don't have the money, time, or opportunity for very much training at this point.

[hso]

You've got to understand that any baton is to be used in very prescribed ways to stay within the legal bounds.

In TN you must be trained and certified just to carry. The training stresses that there are no strikes allowed the head, face or neck. You're focused on striking the large muscle groups and are supposed to avoid hitting the joints to avoid permanent damage that can result in serious law suits.

You should find out is PA even allows you to legally carry one. If not, look to carrying something that serves the same purpose while having a legit use day to day.

[RyanM]

§ 908. Prohibited offensive weapons.
(a) Offense defined.--A person commits a misdemeanor of the first degree if, except as authorized by law, he makes repairs, sells, or otherwise deals in, uses, or possesses any offensive weapon.

(b) Exceptions.--

1. It is a defense under this section for the defendant to prove by a preponderance of evidence that he possessed or dealt with the weapon solely as a curio or in a dramatic performance, or that, with the exception of a bomb, grenade or incendiary device, he complied with the National Firearms Act (26 U.S.C. 5801 et seq.), or that he possessed it briefly in consequence of having found it or taken it from an aggressor, or under circumstances similarly negativing any intent or likelihood that the weapon would be used unlawfully.
2. This section does not apply to police forensic firearms experts or police forensic firearms laboratories. Also exempt from this section are forensic firearms experts or forensic firearms laboratories operating in the ordinary course of business and engaged in lawful operation who notify in writing, on an annual basis, the chief or head of any police force or police department of a city, and, elsewhere, the sheriff of a county in which they are located, of the possession, type and use of offensive weapons.
3. This section shall not apply to any person who makes, repairs, sells or otherwise deals in, uses or possesses any firearm for purposes not prohibited by the laws of this Commonwealth.

(c) Definition.--As used in this section, the following words and phrases shall have the meanings given to them in this subsection:

"Firearm."
Any weapon which is designed to or may readily be converted to expel any projectile by the action of an explosive or the frame or receiver of any such weapon.
"Offensive weapons."
Any bomb, grenade, machine gun, sawed-off shotgun with a barrel less than 18 inches, firearm specially made or specially adapted for concealment or silent discharge, any blackjack, sandbag, metal knuckles, dagger, knife, razor or cutting instrument, the blade of which is exposed in an automatic way by switch, push-button, spring mechanism, or otherwise, or other implement for the infliction of serious bodily injury which serves no common lawful purpose.

(d) Exemptions.--The use and possession of blackjacks by the following persons in the course of their duties are exempt from this section:

1. Police officers, as defined by and who meet the requirements of the act of June 18, 1974 (P.L.359, No.120), referred to as the Municipal Police Education and Training Law.
2. Police officers of first class cities who have successfully completed training which is substantially equivalent to the program under the Municipal Police Education and Training Law.
3. Pennsylvania State Police officers.
4. Sheriffs and deputy sheriffs of the various counties who have satisfactorily met the requirements of the Municipal Police Education and Training Law.
5. Police officers employed by the Commonwealth who have satisfactorily met the requirements of the Municipal Police Education and Training Law.
6. Deputy sheriffs with adequate training as determined by the Pennsylvania Commission on Crime and Delinquency.
7. Liquor Control Board agents who have satisfactorily met the requirements of the Municipal Police Education and Training Law.

---------

The emphasized clause is very interesting indeed. And probably a good thing it's there, considering the potential interpretations of "firearm specially made or specially adapted for concealment."

"Is it physically possible to make this gun larger and still function?"
"Yes."
"Is it physically possible to 'conceal' this gun underneath the foundation of a house, or perhaps on the far side of Eta Carinae?"
"Yes."
"Then it's specially made for concealment!"

Fortunately, there aren't too many of those type of politicians here. I think the current interpretation is that it referrs to NFA "AOW" disguised guns.

But anyway, since full sized batons are not blackjacks, and the Jr. is more like a billy club, I should be fine, carrying-wise. PA's laws are great.

Lawsuits may be a problem, but I think beating a violent person's head in would likely get me in less legal trouble than a stabbing or shooting, provided that the use of force was justified. I really don't see myself beating someone with a big metal stick, unless deadly force is necessary.

I guess saying that I need a less-lethal weapon was a poor choice of words on my part. What I really meant is I need something that's "less-lethal" to bystanders :D than a flying bullet, more PC and easier to carry than a 15" khukuri :D (no I don't have one, but it's on the list of Stuff to Buy Eventually), and has more power and range than a wimpy little punch.

The ComTech Stinger is a great force multiplier, but it has no range benefit over a punch, and at my skill level, I don't think it's very useful for "defanging the snake." Even the Monadnock Jr. would be more useful for smashing fingers and/or knocking a weapon out of someone's hand.

So... circumstances in which I would conceivably use a baton:

1. Lethal force is justified, have gun, area is too crowded for shooting, but there's room to swing a baton.
2. Lethal force is justified, don't have gun, have room to swing.

If there's no room for swinging a big metal stick, that's what I have my Emerson LaGriffe for. If lethal force is not justified, then I'll be verbally de-escalating, calling the cops, walking away, running away, or some combination of the above. If a matter isn't worth killing someone over, it's not worth thumping them over, either.

[Gordon]

I been carrying a 22" Asp for years, guess thats why the girls all love me!:D
The dogs that come after me when I pass on my bike don't though!:evil:
Before anyone jumps me for the stupid **** laws, I am a LEO Reservist!:)

[carpettbaggerr]

I've replaced the tailcap with a flashlight so that it looks like I'm carrying a flashlight. You ARE carrying a flashlight. And flashlights are legal everywhere, as far as I know.

[hso]

You ARE carrying a flashlight. And flashlights are legal everywhere, as far as I know.

Flashlight with accessory or baton with accessory isn't one I'm willing to debate with the authorities. The simple fact is; learn what the law is an work within those limits. I consider the idea that I'm required to get trained and certified a good thing since a baton is no more a magic solution than a firearm is. There are many things it will not do and many problems that my ignorance would multiply.

As to tight places - my Escrima training serves me well in augmenting the ASP certification that I received.

[carpettbaggerr]

Yeah, I wouldn't be interested in debating the point with the authorities.

But if someone had to use such a device for self-defense, that's the justification I would suggest to avoid jail, and/or conviction on a CCW charge.

If someone was certain they'd need a blunt object for self-defense, a 6C cell Maglite woud be a better choice. But, it's harder to carry a Maglite all the time.