[Nimitz]

so I went to tampa this weekend to go shooting w/ my dad...been to this range multiple times and never had a problem.

so we get to the range and there were 2-3 people mulling around the store we go up to the counter, no one says a thing to us for literally 10 minutes (there are 2-3 desk workers just standing there blankly.) finally a guy comes up to us and says

"have you been helped?'

"nope..."

"oh well im here to help"

so we get our ammo and such and go to the range. RO asks us if we've been here, etc. we say yes and then he says

"im a stickler for you guys with autos to pick up your own shells make sure you do."

"okay"

so we leave and my dad makes a comment to me about for what they charge they should sweep up their own shells....after we swept our shells up. and the RO comes over to us as we go out the door saying "i told you gentlemen to sweep your shells, im being nice about it but next time i wont"

we were flabergasted...told him we cleaned up, and he makes the comment "make sure it doesnt happen again"

now i've been coming to this range for about 2 years...

would you guys return? after being treated like dirt im thinking we wont go back...even though its close and convient and the 2nd closest range is about 20 minutes further....

Chad

[FPrice]

Something just does not make sense about this scenario.

Were these guys the regular crew? I think I would have asked the guy to explain his last remark and point out what we did not sweep up.

[f4t9r]

I WOULD HAVE HAD TO SAY SHOW ME WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT BECAUSE WE SWEPT OUR SHELLS UP, MAYBE HE WAS LOOKING AT WRONG LANE OR SOMETHING. wOULD HAVE STRAIGHTENED IT OUT ON THE SPOT.

[newfalguy101]

I would probably drive the extra 20 minutes myself, and then be sure to tell the manager why you only use the first range as a LAST resort.

Or chalk it up to someone having a bad day and give em one more go, then if the same thing happens, leave to never return.

I would kill to have TWO ranges that close to my home, the closest range for me is 45 miles and the 2nd closest is 60

[Nimitz]

there were quite a few others shooting .45 lane next to us, im sure we didnt get EVERY single shell...but we do keep tidy. and now that you mention it I have not seen the RO before....however the manager is the guy who finally helped us.

Chad

[Herself]

You might run into a jerk once at any range. I would have asked to be shown what I did wrong, adding "...So I'll understand how to do it right next time." He might have had a long run of jerks walking out and leaving a mess and was dumping his frustrations on you without thinking. Not a nice trait, but not unknown.

The range we frequent gets superbusy on weekends, about the only time Hubby and I can attend together; even being well-known to the staff and having memberships, we often have to wait 10 minutes or more to get signed in for the next available lane!
Sweeping up brass is not a big deal there; I usually do so before and after but a lot of customers just leave it. The staff try to keep up, but on busy days I think the theory is that when the customers are bothered enough by it, they'll sweep it. Sounds cold but it actually works. (This may be more proof that what they say about Hoosiers is true).

Give the range another chance -- 20 minutes closer means an extra 40 minutes of shooting time!

--Herself

[Kramer Krazy]

What you need to do is.......find out if they have a rule against rapid fire. If they do, go back to the range and shoot for 10-15 minutes, then.....load about three mags and fire as fast as you can....drop the mag....reload.....rapid fire, again. Do that until they throw you out.....You'll have more satisfaction when it comes to getting chewed out. :D

[STAGE 2]

I'd give it one more chance... maybe talk to the owner. Then again I left my local range after they started implementing ridiculous rules like, "you have to bring a gun if you want to rent one of ours". At the very least bring it to someone's attention so maybe the higher ups will straighten this guy out.

[orionengnr]

quote:

"Get Thrown Out
What you need to do is.......find out if they have a rule against rapid fire. If they do, go back to the range and shoot for 10-15 minutes, then.....load about three mags and fire as fast as you can....drop the mag....reload.....rapid fire, again. Do that until they throw you out.....You'll have more satisfaction when it comes to getting chewed out. "


Then you can drive that extra 40 minutes (20 each way) every time from now on...unless maybe the poster suggesting this will drive you...

Sheesh, gotta wonder sometimes...:rolleyes:

[Fun2Shoot]

There is only one public range in my county and it never was my first choice, but these days, it's the only range within 30 miles.

Everytime I go there these days there are more and more rules. The latest one really ticked me off, get this. You can not bring your own ammo anymore. You must purchase it from the range, no exceptions. There is no more "rapid fire" allowed. There must be 1-2 seconds between shots. So much for double-tap practice. You can no longer draw from a holster and fire your gun. The list is much longer, but you can see that this place is turning into a "no fun allowed zone" IMO.

I may start going to the range in the next county. I have more that enough rules to follow on the job. I don't need to be resticted like a moron while I enjoy my hobby.

[Kim]

I though it said NUDE range. :eek:

[Majic]

Being a reloader I would just open my bag and show him all the empty cases and ask him exactly what was he talking about. I would speak to the manager before I left and complain. If you want my money then the service should be to my liking.

[Werewolf]

There are jerks at every range, even private ones like I go to. I can handle the guys that folks euphemistically refer to as <> (heck - I am one). What I can't handle are range NAZI's. :fire:

Like the time I was filing down the front sights on a single action revolver. The cylinder was out and on the bench in front of me while I filed on the sight. My wife and I were the only people on the plinking range. She went down range just as a guy from the adjoining range walked by. He started yelling Ma'am! MA'AM! You can't go down range while someone is handling a gun. She ignored him. I held the revolver up and showed him no cylinder, even said "look, no cylinder".

More yelling: Ma'am! MA'AM! You can't go down range while someone is handling a gun. :rolleyes: I told him to mind his own freaking business and take his inability to judge the circumstances and shove them up where the sun don't shine.

Some people take the rules just too darned seriously. Circumstances vary. Humans can judge when they do. Robots can't. :banghead:

Art's Grammaw was here. - pax

[Walt Rauch]

Some people take the rules just too darned seriously. Circumstances vary. Humans can judge when they do. Robots can't. :banghead:

What part of "no handling" is hard to understand? The RO was doing his job!.

[bogie]

You really need to start reloading.

[AmYisraelChai]

What part of "no handling" is hard to understand? The RO was doing his job!.


I agree 100%

While Common sense is always important, when it comes to a firing line, exceptions can not be made. While some might think they have a good reason why they are right or should be the exception, there are many many valid reasons why you are not.

I have no idea what it takes to run many businesses, and 99% of people who come to the range have no idea what it takes to run one of those....they think they do though.

Never handle a firearm while people are down range. No matter what. Even if it is in a 1000 pieces, even if it isnt real. It is not about "there is no way it could fire" it is about good and bad habbits, because mistakes happen. It is about others who may not know any better seeing it and thinking it is OK, and perhaps they are not as gifted at never making a mistake as you. It is about simple safety, so no one dies of complications of a mistake.

[Thain]

It's also possible the guy is just an old fashioned idiot... One day at the range with a single-shot 16ga. I got chewed out for not cleaning up my spent shells...

The RO pointed at a pile of spent 12ga... :banghead:

[Standing Wolf]

I prefer to reward good service with my dollars rather than bad.

[Walt Rauch]

It's also possible the guy is just an old fashioned idiot... One day at the range with a single-shot 16ga. I got chewed out for not cleaning up my spent shells...

The RO pointed at a pile of spent 12ga... :banghead:


Just curious, how does one allow himself to be "chewed out"? Particularly so when as stated here, being in the right? Although now thinking about it I recall a nun or two when I was in grade school that did this to me..but only for a while...

What posture and facial expression are appropriate? Are there certain words that need to be spoken?

[M2 Carbine]

The first and last time I went to a commercial range the RO wouldn't let me police up my reloadable brass. They want to sweep it up and sell it.
That and their general attitude convinced me that wasn't a place I wanted to shoot.

[4v50 Gary]

The Range Master at Chabot was an egotistical JERK who yelled at me. I calmly took it and then yelled back, pointing out his error and embarassing him in the presence of his subordinate range masters. He fumbled an apology and I brushed him off. He deserved every bit of it. I never went back either.

[Lupinus]

The range I go to isn't to bad. Main dislikes are that you can't bring in your own reloaded ammo, something that put a curb in my plans to reload. Besides that their set up does not easily lend itself to collect your brass if you wanted to reload. That and their ammo is on the expensive side. But to just go shoot isn't bad, 8.95 if you buy ten bucks worth of ammo, 13.95 if you bring your own ammo for as long as you want to stay out there.

All in all I would say give it another chance and take it up with managment considering you've been going there awhile.

[Herself]

I'm startin' to really love my local range after reading this!

They won't allow non-brass casings (though some revolver users can get a waiver if they police their non-brass), but they're okay with users picking up their own brass. Since they do sell the brass that's left, it's strictly honor system...plus an excellent CCTV system for the RO!

It does have a fetaure I have not seen elsewhere, even at the big range in Plano: floor-to-ceiling bulletproof partitions between each position! One too many novice shooters had trouble with "downrange" so the boss decided to not push his luck.

A decent range is a treasure. (Especially an indoor one). It's worth trying to de-escalate the occasional jerk to be able to shoot someplace you (otherwise) enjoy.

--H

[trueblue1776]

I've run into a few range monkey gun-god types like that before. The type that wears their new S&W 500 (or Desert Eagle) just so they can show off to newbies and be a badass. The kind that hands out pointers left and right, and ALWAYS reminds you to point down range when your gun is out of battery with the slide off and the barrel in your hand. Yeah, I think we all know THAT guy!:cuss:

I just smile, behind that 500S&W is a little guy who is afraid he'll get b!tch slapped if he takes it off. I think those guy's have guns for different reasons than most of us. (to keep from getting slapped by me :D )

[rangerruck]

no way in hell>tell all yur friends.

[chaim]

I understand where you are coming from.

There is a local range/gunshop where service is really hit or miss. Some of the employees are some of the best retail employees I've ever seen. Some are complete and total arrogant jerks. After buying my Bersa there a few years back I decided I didn't want to deal with them anymore. One of the guys who is one of their biggest jerks, and who particularly likes to talk to me like I'm a total idiot, is one of the management team (I'm not sure if he's just a manager or one of the partners). So I decided to boycott even though it is only 15 min away and the other indoor pistol ranges are about 45 min away.

Unfortunately, in my case most of my friends who shoot like to shoot there. I can't really hold it against my best friend, and primary shooting buddy, has a 30min drive to get to this range, I can't really ask him to go another 45min to another range. So, I found myself going here more and more to shoot with others and eventually the "boycott" just became rediculous so I do shoot there even when alone, and I'll buy a gun there so long as I get one of their good employees.

So, I'm not sure what my advice is here. I understand the desire to leave due to the bad service, but I also understand forgetting about it due to convenience. I guess I'd probably continue to go there until this becomes more common, then leave and let them know why.

[Cosmoline]

I won't be lectured at by some idiot over something I didn't do. I would have told him off and left for good.

[gunsmith]

I was teaching a really cute black gal from Oakland, CA how to shoot and while I never noticed anything she told me after that it seemed as if "they didn't like her being there"
I must say every time I've been there he's yelled at someone (including me but I was rapid firing)..
I really miss Jackson arms even though they have some of those rules that no one likes (no drawing from your pistol unless you are LE)
but once you get to know them they let some things slide if not to many people are around.
I hate no rapid fire rules.
When I took my lady friend to Jackson arms, she loved it.
She went from being scared to having a big smile after shooting a sp101 loaded with .357:D

[Berek]

If it was the first time in 2 years, give 'em another shot. Be sure that you get the RO's name before you shoot. That way, if it does happen again, you know who to report and explain that if something is not done about rude treatment, you're done with that range. If it happens a third time, or the second time is worse, forget 'em. There's other places.

[Taurus 66]

I won't be lectured at by some idiot over something I didn't do. I would have told him off and left for good.

Right On! That's what I did with my membership at my local conservation club. Now I will attend it "only" as a guest. No money for them from me, except for the basic visitor cheese bits.

Lately I've been getting offers to shoot on private land from co-workers and this is promising. You should look to friends or co-workers to help you out. I know if I invited someone on my property to shoot, I'd clean up the brass and all other litter they left behind. That's what being a "guest" partly about, and Heck, I wouldn't be charging anyone money either!

[Meplat]

There are jerks at every range, even private ones like I go to. I can handle the guys that folks euphemistically refer to as <> (heck - I am one). What I can't handle are range NAZI's. :fire:

Range Nazi's are a bane to me, too. Son and I were shooting, following all range rules to the letter. Ours is a rural private range, often no range officer present. Most of the time, we have it to ourselves. One particular day, jerk drives up, Rambo wannabe acting guy. Commences to ordering everyone around. When he got to us, (son and I were standing BEHIND the firing line, rifles breached, laying ON the benches, pointing downrange - we were both six feet from the benches) he turned to my son and said "Don't you touch that weapon until the range is clear!" in a very nasty tone. I very quickly explained to him that "the boy" had a Dad right beside him well versed in range etiquette, and we didn't need his meddling nose. I had set my son up some clay pigeons against the berm at the hundred yard line to bust up with a .22. This ***hole then proceeds to break out his Anshultz target rifle and try to hit the birds. Pissed me off enough to tap my son on the shoulder, have him lock open his action, take his place, and proceed to bust all the birds out from under him. Then looked over at my son, told him it was time to go, as the smell of ???? was getting a little too musty.

Like the time I was filing down the front sights on a single action revolver. The cylinder was out and on the bench in front of me while I filed on the sight. My wife and I were the only people on the plinking range. She went down range just as a guy from the adjoining range walked by. He started yelling Ma'am! MA'AM! You can't go down range while someone is handling a gun. She ignored him. I held the revolver up and showed him no cylinder, even said "look, no cylinder".

More yelling: Ma'am! MA'AM! You can't go down range while someone is handling a gun. :rolleyes: I told him to mind his own freaking business and take his inability to judge the circumstances and shove them up where the sun don't shine.

Some people take the rules just too darned seriously. Circumstances vary. Humans can judge when they do. Robots can't. :banghead:

THIS I don't consider range Nazism, however. Too many times I have walked downrange after the "Clear" has been yelled, checked my target, and seen some idiot looking through a scope at me. Stunts like this nearly got one of my favorite RO's killed once. Young feller let a .270 round go on target 4 while RO was stapling a target on no. 6. He was "looking through his scope to check his target" and was totally humiliated by his stupidity...then he had to face the range owner. A BAD day for him.

Yes, I know, your action was open, and I'm sure you would have never done anything to endanger anyone. Not everyone can be counted on to do things properly, though, and some rules should NEVER be broken. Handling a firearm while someone is downrange is one of these rules.

I firmly believe that NO FIREARM should be touched while anyone is downrange. That way, there is no guessing if you are using good judgement. You KNOW you are. If nothing else, it gives others peace of mind and allows them to enjoy the full relaxation of a day at the range.

[Meplat]

so we get our ammo and such and go to the range. RO asks us if we've been here, etc. we say yes and then he says

"im a stickler for you guys with autos to pick up your own shells make sure you do."

That I could tolerate if it were done in the proper tone. Then again, I've been to ranges where they didn't WANT you to pick up your brass, cause they rounded it up and sold it.

so we leave and my dad makes a comment to me about for what they charge they should sweep up their own shells....after we swept our shells up. and the RO comes over to us as we go out the door saying "i told you gentlemen to sweep your shells, im being nice about it but next time i wont"

we were flabergasted...told him we cleaned up, and he makes the comment "make sure it doesnt happen again"

It is generally at this point that I ask the kind person to accompany me to his or her supervisor, where we can get this whole thing straightened out to everyone's satisfaction. Hmmm...never bothers the boy, but my wife and daughter HATE going with me anywhere. Wrong me, and I'll be glad to point it out. Scenes don't bother me too much.

would you guys return? after being treated like dirt im thinking we wont go back...even though its close and convient and the 2nd closest range is about 20 minutes further....

Depends on how things went after the intial and immediate conversation between the joker in question, his boss, and myself went. I never leave until I have the air clear. That way, I know whether to return or not. If done in a rational manner, nine times out of ten you're going to be treated decently next time....the tenth time it's time to pull stakes. AND the shooting community is a close one...word gets around fast. Most range owners know this. They, like any other business owner, are there to make a living. Can't do that if they let some jerk run their customers off.

[Tequila_Sauer]

I absolutely hate one of the local outdoor ranges around here. I was there two weekends ago and that was it, I'm sick of that place.

I hear them referring to customers in offensive ways (using expletives) and they're just all around rude. Plus, their hot rounds are insanely long, my target is almost non-existant after it's over.

[Kramer Krazy]

Then you can drive that extra 40 minutes (20 each way) every time from now on...unless maybe the poster suggesting this will drive you...

Sheesh, gotta wonder sometimes...:rolleyes:
Wow...I guess I may as well keep my day job. Appearantly, my jokes are pretty bad. :neener: ....BTW, I drive over an hour, one-way, to my indoor range...and we've gone 4 times in a week, before. If the one in Columbia, SC was five minutes from the house, I'd still probably drive the hour....Shooter's Choice in Columbia has some people with similar attitudes to the one the original poster was talking about. The guys at Rex's in Hendersonville, NC are some of the best people you could ever ask to deal with. I'd make it a point to spend my money at the place that didn't have the employees with attitude.

[Walt Rauch]

"I firmly believe that NO FIREARM should be touched while anyone is downrange. That way, there is no guessing if you are using good judgment. You KNOW you are. If nothing else, it gives others peace of mind and allows them to enjoy the full relaxation of a day at the range."

Amen!!

There are two kinds of shooters regarding negligent discharges, those who have had one and those that lie about it.

[HankB]

What I can't handle are range NAZI'sDitto. I used to be a member of a large gun club up in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area, where the club treasurer, a guy appropriately named "Dick," thought of the club as his own personal fiefdom.

One day my buddy and I were the only ones on the range, and he comes down and starts haranguing us about some imagined violation of the rules. While he was going on and on, I noticed that, contrary to club rules, he wasn't wearing his own badge.

When he momemtarily stopped to catch is breath, I asked "Who ARE you?"

He answered, "You know who I am, I'm Dick *****, the club treasurer!!!"

I replied, "No, you can't be, since all the club officers KNOW that the RULES are you WEAR YOUR CLUB ID while on the range. If you don't leave peacefully right now, I'll have to call the sheriff's office and have you removed." :D

(BTW, the guy was later implicated in some questionable dealings involving club funds, and left office under a cloud . . . which was letting him off easy, IMHO.)
I've been to ranges where they didn't WANT you to pick up your brass, cause they rounded it up and sold it.
Or reloaded it themselves. I used to "gift" them with Berdan-primed cases whenever possible. :evil:

[deadin]

One of the best set-ups I have seen on a range is the one I used to shoot at (before I moved). There was a Red line painted on the floor about 3 ft. behind the firing line and a cease-fire bell that rang continuously when the line was "made safe". The strictly enforced rule were : when the bell was on, all firearms were to be on the bench with slides back, bolts back, actions open, magazines out and no one ahead of the red line. And no handling of any uncased firearms behind the line. As this was a membership club, we policed ourselves pretty well. On weekends when the range was open to the public, there was always a NRA qualified Rangemaster who was not afraid to eject anyone not following the rules.

Dean

[V4Vendetta]

What part of "no handling" is hard to understand? The RO was doing his job!.


So were the common Nazi soldiers. So were the soldiers at Abu Graib. People have a duty to disobey immoral rules just as every LEO has a duty to disobey immoral orders. I went to my library recently to rent some movies & books. I'm 17. I will be 18 in 7 days. You have to be 18 to rent movies even if the movie is not rated R!:fire: I asked the librarian why I couldn't rent movies even though I had a drivers permit, was just 7 days away from being 18 & a youth responsible enough to have a job. She said that it was just a policy. I wasn't mad at her. She was just a messenger. People need to start using their own judgement. Think for themselves.

[Molon Labe]

At our range, the Four Safety Rules are strictly enforced. Other than that, everything is allowed (rapid fire, full auto, .50 BMG, etc.)

The range is our backyard. :D

[V4Vendetta]

I can't say what to do about your range problem. My backyard is my range.:) Saddens me to hear about people who can't have that luxury. My advice is to give them a second chance. If they are still jerks, sell your house, move to the country, buy a house there, shoot till you are out of ammo.:) :cool:

[Werewolf]

What part of "no handling" is hard to understand? The RO was doing his job!.He wasn't an RO just some range NAZI strolling by and practicing ZERO TOLERANCE (which is a foolish policy no matter what it is applied to).

Did you miss the part about no cylinder in the gun? :banghead:

Without a cylinder it WON'T FIRE! Hell it's not even really a gun without a cylinder - just a hunk of metal.

What part of common sense don't you understand? If there'd been other shooters there for their peace of mind I would have just picked up the revolver and walked back to my car with it. But it was just me and my wife - no one else using the range. She, having the ability to use her brain and judge circumstances, understood the difference between a hunk of metal and a firearm. It seems some here don't.

I guess you're one of those guys that never, ever cleans his guns. After all according to Rule 1 all guns are to be treated as if they are loaded all the time. Can't clean a loaded gun can ya? Kinda rediculous - huh?

NOW DO YOU GET IT?

[FPrice]

Werewolf,

There are jerks at every range, even private ones like I go to. I can handle the guys that folks euphemistically refer to as <> (heck - I am one). What I can't handle are range NAZI's.

Like the time I was filing down the front sights on a single action revolver. The cylinder was out and on the bench in front of me while I filed on the sight. My wife and I were the only people on the plinking range. She went down range just as a guy from the adjoining range walked by. He started yelling Ma'am! MA'AM! You can't go down range while someone is handling a gun. She ignored him. I held the revolver up and showed him no cylinder, even said "look, no cylinder".

More yelling: Ma'am! MA'AM! You can't go down range while someone is handling a gun. I told him to mind his own freaking business and take his inability to judge the circumstances and shove them up where the sun don't shine.

Some people take the rules just too darned seriously. Circumstances vary. Humans can judge when they do. Robots can't.

I think that the problem is that you don't get it.

Rules are there for a reason.

In the situation you mention, yes, your firearm was incapable of being fired. And maybe it was just your wife downrange. However, if you do this often enough (ignore the rules because you know better) then maybe someday you will ignore the rules in front of someone who doesn't quite know as much as you obviously do and they just might decide to follow your example only something is going to go wrong and there is going to be a tragic accident. Or you just might have that accident yourself.

If you can't accept that then you have no business ever on a range with other people. Every rule you break because you know better brings you just that much closer to a preventable accident.

[Werewolf]

Rules are there for a reason.Hmmm...

From all the posts referring to my post about range nazis it seems that the prevailing attitude is that they (the rules that is) are there to protect the stupid from themselves but then there are lots of stupid people in the world that need protecting I suppose. What you guys are exhibiting here is ZERO TOLERANCE, an attitude extant in today's society (and it seems by some on THR - who've probably decried it in other threads). ZERO TOLERANCE, no matter what it is applied to, is nothing more than a construct created to remove responsibility from those tasked with making judgements and attach it to a RULE. But then today's society is all about removing responsibility from individuals isn't it?

Sorry guys but I didn't do anything wrong. No one was placed in danger - ever - not for one microsecond. It is amazing (and regretable) to me that some are so ate up with rules that they forget that no rule can ever hope to cover every conceivable situation.

[AmYisraelChai]

Hmmm...

From all the posts referring to my post about range nazis it seems that the prevailing attitude is that they (the rules that is) are there to protect the stupid from themselves but then there are lots of stupid people in the world that need protecting I suppose. What you guys are exhibiting here is ZERO TOLERANCE, an attitude extant in today's society (and it seems by some on THR - who've probably decried it in other threads). ZERO TOLERANCE, no matter what it is applied to, is nothing more than a construct created to remove responsibility from those tasked with making judgements and attach it to a RULE. But then today's society is all about removing responsibility from individuals isn't it?

Sorry guys but I didn't do anything wrong. No one was placed in danger - ever - not for one microsecond. It is amazing (and regretable) to me that some are so ate up with rules that they forget that no rule can ever hope to cover every conceivable situation.

On a firing range you can and should apply Zero Tolerance. The stakes are to high. They are far higher than someones self perceived inconvenience.

There are two ends of the spectrum on a civilian firing line, Green Horns and Green Berets. Since I cant tell the difference, and we are all strangers or light aquantences that are using deadly weapons, the rules must be set for the lowest common denominator. The Green Berets might not cause the accident, but they sure can die from one. And my range is not worth losing over your desire to be the exception or right.

[ArmedBear]

I'd give it one more chance... maybe talk to the owner. Then again I left my local range after they started implementing ridiculous rules like, "you have to bring a gun if you want to rent one of ours".

I'm not sure what other rules they implemented, but that rule has a reason. The range down the street from my house had someone come in, rent a gun, then shoot himself in the head with it. That incident has led many ranges to implement rental rules like that, or "rentals only for groups of 2 or more" or similar.

I'm not sure whether the suicidal man was too cheap to buy a gun, or if he just didn't want to wait the 10 days required here in CA.:o

Personally, rapid-fire rules are what get me, especially for pistol ranges. If I didn't want to practice reacquiring the target quickly, I could just dry-fire at home and get 99% of the benefit of slow-fire practice, for free.:rolleyes:

[Sinsaba]

Yes a quick "Sea Story"

I was assigned to a jet squadron (VAQ33) fresh out of "A" school. I was very nervous walking my first watch in the hanger. After all, I'd heard of all of the death stories of what could happen if you got behind a jet with the egine going. But, I had my duty to perform so I walked the hanger even though it meant walking behind these deadly jet engines. It didn't matter that I was the only one in the hanger, it didn't matter that they weren't going; what if something happened, an accident, and one started.

Imagine how I felt the next day when I saw one of these fighters started. First they have to bring out equipment to give them electricity. Then they have to bring out equipment to pump in compressed air. Finally, there has to be someone in the cockpit to flip all of the switches.

Yes, all of the stories I had heard about going behind a running jet engine were true. Yes, safety procedures were developed for that. However, on watch, in the hanger, other procedures applied. Because It was IMPOSSIBLE for the jets to start in a manner to make it dangerous. Not because someone THOUGHT it was but because it truly was IMPOSSIBLE.

[Werewolf]

the rules must be set for the lowest common denominatorAnd there it is people...
The lowest common denominator.

That is so wrong on so many levels - the most insulting of which is that it assumes everyone is on that lowest level and must be treated accordingly. :barf:

When did it become the right thing to pander to the stupid and incompetent among us; to design our society around those who can't instead of those who can? :banghead:

[Thefabulousfink]

Heck No, I wouldn't continue doing business there.

I Had a similar encounter at the only outdoor range within 45min. It started before we had even arrived, the hill leading to the range has a 5mph limit, but it also runs along side the trap range so the shooters there have to stop shooting until the car has passed. My buddy was driving, and he sped up a little so that the trap shooters could get back to shooting. When we reached the bottom of the hill this old guy comes out of the hut and says, "you want to go back up that road and try it again at the right speed?" We were going 10, mabey 15 mph, so my friend asks, "excuse me?" and the old guy says, "you heard me, come down the road at the right speed or you can't shoot here." At that point my friend turned his truck around and peeled out up the hill.

Not wanting to completely write off the only good outdoor range close by, I went back there another time for some practice with my .22 pistol. While shooting, RO (different guy than before) comes over and says, "if you don't start tacking more time between shots, I'll kick you off this range." Nevermind the fact that all my shots were hitting the target, and that Rapid Fire is a stage in compitition shooting.

I understand the need to enforce safety on a range, but they are not Drill Instructers, and we were not doing anything reckless or dangerous. All it would have taken was a gentle "hey, could you fire a little slower, we don't want any stray rounds to get away from you?" Me and my friends have decided that we are not going to pay good money to shoot at a range run by old codgers with PBS (pissy bitch syndrom), even if it means we have to drive 45 min to get to the next range.

[c_yeager]

He wasn't an RO just some range NAZI strolling by and practicing ZERO TOLERANCE (which is a foolish policy no matter what it is applied to).

Did you miss the part about no cylinder in the gun? :banghead:

Without a cylinder it WON'T FIRE! Hell it's not even really a gun without a cylinder - just a hunk of metal.

What part of common sense don't you understand? If there'd been other shooters there for their peace of mind I would have just picked up the revolver and walked back to my car with it. But it was just me and my wife - no one else using the range. She, having the ability to use her brain and judge circumstances, understood the difference between a hunk of metal and a firearm. It seems some here don't.

I guess you're one of those guys that never, ever cleans his guns. After all according to Rule 1 all guns are to be treated as if they are loaded all the time. Can't clean a loaded gun can ya? Kinda rediculous - huh?

NOW DO YOU GET IT?

You know, an empty gun is no real threat to anyone either. Tell ya what though, if I'm ever on the same range how about you actually follow the rules that you agreed to and try not to handle firearms while I am down range, regardless of how "safe" your particular gun is. If you cant follow the rules at a private range maybe you should find your way onto some public land so that noone else will be responsible for your behavior.

here is the big thing that you dont seem to grasp. If YOU want to look down the barrel of a gun while your cleaning it, it is YOUR head thats in a bad place. You start screwing around with your piece on a private range and you are placing everyone down range in that position without their consent, plus you are making the range owners liable for YOUR irresponsible behavior. Here is a handy rule of thumb for you to go by; It is OK to risk your own neck, but it is NOT OK to risk someone elses. Here I thought that was common sense.

And there it is people...
The lowest common denominator.

That is so wrong on so many levels - the most insulting of which is that it assumes everyone is on that lowest level and must be treated accordingly. :barf:

When did it become the right thing to pander to the stupid and incompetent among us; to design our society around those who can't instead of those who can? :banghead:

Yes, yes, only YOU are proffessional enough to handle a firearm when people are downrange, congratularions.

[Thefabulousfink]

Also, on the topic of Zero Tolerance, I am a firm believer in Darwin. Novices should be well taught in the correct way to do things, then if they don't learn the lesson, then they pay the price. Same thing if a kid shoots himself or a friend w/ his dad's gun. The parent should have learned to lock up his guns and taught his kids not to play with them now he has a dead son. We don't need more laws to tell people what they should allready know. We have a law, it's the law of reality. If you are fooling around on a range and you shoot someone you will be punnished. I would rather be shot by some fool than live in a world that treats me like a babe in swaddling(sp?) clothes.

Call it crass, call it cold-hearted, that is my belief.

[Drysdale]

There is only one public range in my county and it never was my first choice, but these days, it's the only range within 30 miles.

Everytime I go there these days there are more and more rules. The latest one really ticked me off, get this. You can not bring your own ammo anymore. You must purchase it from the range, no exceptions. There is no more "rapid fire" allowed. There must be 1-2 seconds between shots. So much for double-tap practice. You can no longer draw from a holster and fire your gun. The list is much longer, but you can see that this place is turning into a "no fun allowed zone" IMO.

I may start going to the range in the next county. I have more that enough rules to follow on the job. I don't need to be resticted like a moron while I enjoy my hobby.

As to the buying of ammo, people were probably shooting FMJ there or something and tearing up their backstops too quickly...

[AmYisraelChai]

And there it is people...
The lowest common denominator.

That is so wrong on so many levels - the most insulting of which is that it assumes everyone is on that lowest level and must be treated accordingly. :barf:

When did it become the right thing to pander to the stupid and incompetent among us; to design our society around those who can't instead of those who can? :banghead:


Again, we are not talking about some Utopia, we are talking about a live firing range. The lowest common denominator can get you killed, so can the self professed competent. And I cant tell who is who just by looking.

It is not a society, it is a business that is designed to exchange goods and services for a profit. In doing so and taking into account the very special considerations that a live firing range require, rules must exist that tend towards a wost case scenerio.

[Drysdale]

I'm startin' to really love my local range after reading this!

They won't allow non-brass casings (though some revolver users can get a waiver if they police their non-brass), but they're okay with users picking up their own brass. Since they do sell the brass that's left, it's strictly honor system...plus an excellent CCTV system for the RO!

It does have a fetaure I have not seen elsewhere, even at the big range in Plano: floor-to-ceiling bulletproof partitions between each position! One too many novice shooters had trouble with "downrange" so the boss decided to not push his luck.

A decent range is a treasure. (Especially an indoor one). It's worth trying to de-escalate the occasional jerk to be able to shoot someplace you (otherwise) enjoy.

--H

Since you mentioned Plano, you must be in D/FW... Which range areyou going to?

[AmYisraelChai]

Also, on the topic of Zero Tolerance, I am a firm believer in Darwin. Novices should be well taught in the correct way to do things, then if they don't learn the lesson, then they pay the price. Same thing if a kid shoots himself or a friend w/ his dad's gun. The parent should have learned to lock up his guns and taught his kids not to play with them now he has a dead son. We don't need more laws to tell people what they should allready know. We have a law, it's the law of reality. If you are fooling around on a range and you shoot someone you will be punnished. I would rather be shot by some fool than live in a world that treats me like a babe in swaddling(sp?) clothes.

Call it crass, call it cold-hearted, that is my belief.


I understand your angst, but I dont think it takes into account the whole truth of the situation. If you get hurt on a range, The person pushied is not only the person who did it, but the owner who may lose his lively hood and everything he has.

BTW, at a private range, they are not "Laws" they are rules. You may chose to not use the range.

And this is not directed at you, so dont take it personaly, but all the people that proclaim something to the effect about how they are capable of doing it their own way because they posess whatever it takes to be so smart and skilled, why do people with such talent and ability have to shoot at a range anyways? Shouldnt these people be driving their Lamborghinies to their own private spread?

[c_yeager]

If you are fooling around on a range and you shoot someone you will be punnished. I would rather be shot by some fool than live in a world that treats me like a babe in swaddling(sp?) clothes.


So you honestly find the prohibition against handling weapons during cease fire to be this intrusive into your life? Its just a little too much for you to handle? Well, like I said you are welcome to shoot on public land. Personally, I would rather live with not handling my firearms for a whole 10 minutes than get shot by some idiot.

Seriously I think a few of out members here need to get out and face some GENUINE hardships in their lives, just to get some perspective. If simple range safety rules make you feel like your have something in common with people who died in the Holocaust, or that the whole world is falling apart as a result, I think that you have a really twisted view on the world that is built from never having had to deal with something that is *actually* unjust or difficult. In other words, maybe if you would step out of your little envelope of safety and comfort maybe you would learn about the things that are actually worth getting in a fret over, heres a hint; range rules aint one of them.

[simon691]

Next time were a hat or cap and put a fake mustache on. If they treat you better then go back and be your own self to see if they treat you any different. Oh and make sure to put a hidden video on the cap/hat and on the button of your shirt.

[Deathrider1579]

Ok I am going to relate my pbs situation and I am prolly going to get chewed out for it but I wan't to know what the deal is so please be nice or at least cordial in the tearing of my new one :)

A few months ago I went out to the range to get some practice, I brought along my AR and my .22 rifles and my .22 pistol. So I go about my busness being the ONLY one on this range I shoot for about 20 minutes with no problem.
I start packing up and get my rifles into the case that I have laying on the shooting bench (this is an out door range). So I look arround and the only other people out are some guys over at the 600 yd range shooting high power (the 600 yd range is set at an angle so its safe to be down range on either when the other line is hot + there is a berm.) Any how I decide to do some practice with my pistol closer up at IDPA ranges and practice some drills. I know a .22 isnt for IDPA but I figure sights are sights and practiceing is alwase a good thing so, I walk out a few meeters (like 10 or 15 towards the 25 meeter target) and start doing some drills when I get these two guys who look like nam' vets running full tilt across the feild from the 600 yard range screaming at the top of their lungs that I should not be shooting there as im not at the fireing line.... I said that it was fine because I was the only one their and the firing line was where I was. They said rules are rules, so I packed up and left.

1. The situation was safe no danger of hitting anyone as there was a berm that all my rounds were landing in.
2. The situation was safe as I was alone on that range.

Did I do anything wrong? I don't see that I did but I could be wrong.

I still shoot there but I don't like a lot of the members who treat me like im fresh off the school bus and have never shot a firearm in my life grrr.


-DR

[callgood]

We sometimes don't appreciate how lucky we are. My primary range has no range officer. It is a small family run range and we are all "Range Officers." If anyone sees a problem, they speak up. You can bring your own ammo and leave it for them to resell or pick it up.

If the owner sees or is informed of unsafe practices he comes down like ugly on a monkey, but it is very rare.

Only negative is the rifle range is only 100 yards and semi autos must be okeyd by the owner ahead of time. No rapid fire. On the other hand I went by one afternoon on a slow day and a couple of LEO/mil types were shooting sub guns on the pistol range. When they left they asked, do you reload? You are welcome to our brass." ;)

All in all a good place, and 7.00 for all day (and a great lunch counter).

[Sinsaba]

So you honestly find the prohibition against handling weapons during cease fire to be this intrusive into your life? ...

I do believe the post that you are talking about was about the blind unthinking application of a rule. Not did the rule itself cause a problem. We all laugh (and I suspect curse) when we read about the blind application of the rule "no guns at school" whereby some student gets expelled for bringing a totally, easily visable, nonfunctioning model of a gun to school.

We all talk about the stupidity, the unthinking application of such a rule. But when it comes to the sacred rules of the range some think that it is right to throw thought out the window.

I believe that is the point that Werewolf was making and he is right. Anytime you turned off your brain, you have turned off the one thing that makes us different than animals.

[FPrice]

I believe that is the point that Werewolf was making and he is right. Anytime you turned off your brain, you have turned off the one thing that makes us different than animals.

Understanding the rules and being able to follow them requires a brain.

[AmYisraelChai]

I still dont get what the fuss is. Other than proclaiming yourself right, where is your leg to stand on?

First off, you handled a Firearm while someone was down range.

You set a poor example for someone who might not know anybetter.

You created a situation which could lead to a death.

you broke a rule you agreed to follow by shooting on a private range.


And again, if nothing else, Say you are a range officer or a safety minded fellow shooter. All they know is you were handling a firearm. It is not the fact that it shouldnt be able to or couldnt be able to fire, it is the fact that they have the DUTY to attend to something that appears to be very unsafe and neglagent. Your whole argument centers around the fact that AFTER the correction was made(Someone saw you handling a gun while someone else was downrange), you could "prove" that it wasnt needed becase the gun could not fire. That is rather rude of you and not a good application of common sense on your part. It all goes back to how is an RO supposed to tell who is who and what gun being handled is Ok to be handled. This is not a case of "Ha, the RO tried to correct me, but I go the best of him" This is a case of the person could not tell, made the appropriate correction that would not have been needed to be made had you not handled a firearm when you are not supposed to.

Dont handle firearms while people are down range.

[Werewolf]

I do believe the post that you are talking about was about the blind unthinking application of a rule. Not did the rule itself cause a problem. We all laugh (and I suspect curse) when we read about the blind application of the rule "no guns at school" whereby some student gets expelled for bringing a totally, easily visable, nonfunctioning model of a gun to school.

We all talk about the stupidity, the unthinking application of such a rule. But when it comes to the sacred rules of the range some think that it is right to throw thought out the window.

I believe that is the point that Werewolf was making and he is right. Anytime you turned off your brain, you have turned off the one thing that makes us different than animals.
That's all I was trying to say. Thank you Sinsaba :) for being way more eloquent than I.

[Werewolf]

I still dont get what the fuss is. Other than proclaiming yourself right, where is your leg to stand on?

First off, you handled a Firearm while someone was down range.OKAY... But a revolver without a cylinder isn't really a firearm.You set a poor example for someone who might not know anybetter.Nope... no one else on that range except my wife and she knew exactly what I was doing.You created a situation which could lead to a death.That's a pure unadulterated, stinking pile of bovine excrement. A revolver without a cylinder isn't going to cause anyone's death - well - maybe if you konked someone over the head with it.you broke a rule you agreed to follow by shooting on a private range.No I didn't. A revolver without a cylinder isn't a freaking firearm. It's a chunk of metal at best - a club at worst.

Why is that so hard to understand? NO ONE WAS IN DANGER! The rules can't cover every circumstance. That's why there are judges. GOD! ZERO TOLERANCE IS 2ND ONLY TO PC IN IT'S TYRANNY.And again, if nothing else, Say you are a range officer or a safety minded fellow shooter. All they know is you were handling a firearm.NO! I held it up and showed the guy no cylinder. I even said "look, no cylinder" but he persisted.:banghead: It is not the fact that it shouldnt be able to or couldnt be able to fire,:rolleyes: NO... That is exactly the point... The weapon was safed. I took out the cylinder just for that reason....it is the fact that they have the DUTY to attend to something that appears to be very unsafe and neglagent.With that I will agree - right up to the point where it is shown that nothing negligent or unsafe is occuring. Your whole argument centers around the fact that AFTER the correction was made(Someone saw you handling a gun while someone else was downrange), you could "prove" that it wasnt needed becase the gun could not fire. That is rather rude of you and not a good application of common sense on your part.Why do you say that. There is nothing rude about pointing out that an unsafe condition doesn't exist. It was stupid of him and showed a lack of intelligence and judgement on his part to persist in trying to enforce a rule that under the circumstances just didn't apply. I admit that I did get rude with the guy but only after he persisted in his actions. It all goes back to how is an RO supposed to tell who is who and what gun being handled is Ok to be handled.He isn't - until - he's shown otherwise.This is not a case of "Ha, the RO tried to correct me, but I go the best of him" This is a case of the person could not tell, made the appropriate correction that would not have been needed to be made had you not handled a firearm when you are not supposed to.And yet after he was shown that no unsafe condition existed he persisted in trying to enforce an inapplicable rule. That's what made him a Range NAZI. Not the first action but the persistence in the face of hard evidence that no unsafe condition existed.

I suggest that all of those who profess that the Range NAZI was correct throw away all your cleaning equipment because according to the rule that all guns are always to be treated as loaded that you are unable to safely clean any of your weapons. ZERO TOLERANCE AFTERALL IS THE NAME OF THE GAME.

[Thefabulousfink]

amyisraelchai,

Thankyou for not attacking me in your post and in return I will not attack you.

I see you point, and I understand the need for rules. I just get so tiered of people tring to impose a nanny-state that I have become an extremist in the opposition. My intention is not to create an anarchist utopia with no rules whatsoever, but rather to get people to question the need to over-legislate every little common sense scenario in order to protect the type of people who are going to ingnore these laws anyway.


There, I have vented enough for today, thank you all for listening and being patient with me.:o

[AmYisraelChai]

OKAY... But a revolver without a cylinder isn't really a firearm.Nope... no one else on that range except my wife and she knew exactly what I was doing.That's a pure unadulterated, stinking pile of bovine excrement. A revolver without a cylinder isn't going to cause anyone's death - well - maybe if you konked someone over the head with it.No I didn't. A revolver without a cylinder isn't a freaking firearm. It's a chunk of metal at best - a club at worst.

Why is that so hard to understand? NO ONE WAS IN DANGER! The rules can't cover every circumstance. That's why there are judges. GOD! ZERO TOLERANCE IS 2ND ONLY TO PC IN IT'S TYRANNY.NO! I held it up and showed the guy no cylinder. I even said "look, no cylinder" but he persisted.:banghead: :rolleyes: NO... That is exactly the point... The weapon was safed. I took out the cylinder just for that reason.With that I will agree - right up to the point where it is shown that nothing negligent or unsafe is occuring.Why do you say that. There is nothing rude about pointing out that an unsafe condition doesn't exist. It was stupid of him and showed a lack of intelligence and judgement on his part to persist in trying to enforce a rule that under the circumstances just didn't apply. I admit that I did get rude with the guy but only after he persisted in his actions.He isn't - until - he's shown otherwise.And yet after he was shown that no unsafe condition existed he persisted in trying to enforce an inapplicable rule. That's what made him a Range NAZI. Not the first action but the persistence in the face of hard evidence that no unsafe condition existed.

I suggest that all of those who profess that the Range NAZI was correct throw away all your cleaning equipment because according to the rule that all guns are always to be treated as loaded that you are unable to safely clean any of your weapons. ZERO TOLERANCE AFTERALL IS THE NAME OF THE GAME.

As far as you disagreeing with it could lead to a death, you practice poor habits that could either cause you or someone else to kill someone at a latter date.

Again, had you not handled a firearm when you were not supposed to, none of this would happen. The person did not know, he saw you with a gun when someone was down range. You created the appearance of an unsafe condition and violation of the rules. You did something and the exact right thing happened, you where corrected for doing something that required attention. That is the rude part.

I am seriously trying to keep this civil, Imagin everything I am saying to you are as if we are two old friends having a diference of opinion over a cold one. But by your logic, you would be justified to walk around in public with a realitic looking 100% fake gun. Since it is not real, and YOU know better, and you are not violating the law, what you are doing is OK, and the ensuing panic is not your fault and the Police who must respond are wrong. Is that fair of you to utilize police resources in that way? Would it be OK to go into a store and pretend to steal stuff? While you can not be punished for it because you did not actually steal anything, is the store guard in the wrong because he can not tell the diference? Is it right of you to make him waste his time in such a way?

It isnt about what you could and could not do with your disasembled gun. It is about others not knowing anybetter and the creation of even the appearence of an unsafe condition that requires the attention of those who do know better.

Dont handle a firearm while people are down rang.

[FPrice]

Dont handle a firearm while people are down rang.

Why is such a simple concept so difficult for (some) people to understand?

[AZ Jeff]

AmYisraelChai posted
"It all goes back to how is an RO supposed to tell who is who and what gun being handled is Ok to be handled."

To which Werewolf replied: "He isn't - until - he's shown otherwise."

This is PLAINLY A WRONG ASSUMPTION when shooting on a public range.

I have been shooting on public ranges and elsewhere for 40+ years. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen shooters start handling firearms in all states of condition while persons are downrange. And in each case, the RO did not run up and examine the firearm, and make a judgement call as to whether or not it's "safe" before telling the shooter to put the arm down.

The fact is, if an RO has to evaluate each and every case of firearm handling with persons downrange prior to declaring it a "safe" or "unsafe" act, his first clue that it's unsafe may be the sound of a discharge. Then it's too late.

If it's just you and me, on Werewolf's private range, we can set up rules as you suggest. I trust you, and you trust me. We know each other, and we are comfortable in that trust.

When it's dozens of strangers of unknown skills, we do not have that familiarity, and we cannot afford the risks with such unknowns. Hence, we adopt more rigid risk reduction policies.

If you cannot accept this fact, or see the difference, I wonder how much you have been exposed to shooting in such environments. It doesn't take long on a public range to see someone break one or more of the cardinal rules, plus local rules, and thankfully, there are RO's there to guard against the bad outcomes of such travesties.

[AJ Dual]

Sorry.

I thought this was a thread about a nude gun range. The "r" and the "u" kinda run together when you're running at 1160x1280 resolution.

Never mind. Carry on.

As you were.

[Firethorn]

I'd give it one more chance... maybe talk to the owner. Then again I left my local range after they started implementing ridiculous rules like, "you have to bring a gun if you want to rent one of ours". At the very least bring it to someone's attention so maybe the higher ups will straighten this guy out.

That's an attempt to prevent suicides renting and killing themselves with one of the range's guns, on the property.

[FPrice]

I thought this was a thread about a nude gun range.

Now that's a whole different set of problems!

:what:

[FPrice]

I thought this was a thread about a nude gun range.

Now that's a whole different set of problems!

:what:

edited to add: Posted twice because on a "nude" range I'd probably look twice.

[MarkF45]

I would not go back to a rude range.

The original problem that started this thread is a judgment call (or else we wouldn't have so many different replies). I'm in favor of common sense over zero tolerance. Werewolf did not say if he was holding it one hand while filing the sight, or if it was on some type of stand. That would make a difference in how I handled the situation.

And there are ways to resolve problems that don't involve screaming.

[FPrice]

And there are ways to resolve problems that don't involve screaming.

More yelling: Ma'am! MA'AM! You can't go down range while someone is handling a gun. I told him to mind his own freaking business and take his inability to judge the circumstances and shove them up where the sun don't shine.

Considering Werewolf's own words and his subsequent vehement defense of his actions and attitudes, you maybe correct.

Throwing such a person off the range for a rule violation is much more appropriate.

[dwave]

More yelling: Ma'am! MA'AM! You can't go down range while someone is handling a gun. I told him to mind his own freaking business and take his inability to judge the circumstances and shove them up where the sun don't shine.

Rules are in place for a reason. The OWNER of the range makes the rules and it is the RO's job to enforce them that is his job. Even if you was the only person there, the rules should not be bent for you, and if you don't like them, shoot else where. They are put in place for 2 good reasons; 1 to keep people from getting hurt, and 2 to keep the owner from getting a big fat lawsuit. By the way, a gun without a cylinder is still a gun, not just a piece of metal, that is like saying a car without an engine is not a car. Me personally if I was working and you yelled at me for doing my job, and I had the power, I would have thrown you out. Yes I can think, but I want to keep my job and I would be unwilling to bend the rules.

Back on the subject, I would give them another try, and if they was stupid the second time I would complain and leave them for good.

[bumm]

This is one of very few hobbies where a careless accident can result in a death or a ruined life, so I can understand stringent rules and strict enforcement. On the other hand, I shoot for fun and a healthy respite from a rather stressful life. (I won't go into the boring details...) If I felt that a range had no respect for me as a customer, and I was made to feel uncomfortable there simply to feed an employee's ego, I'd be gone.
Marty

[Missouri Mule]

Was this the manager, the owner or just some dipstick flunky who was so nasty to you?

If was just some turd with a tude I'd discuss it with the owner/boss and demand satisfaction, whatever that may be.

If that didn't work out ... I don't spend my $$ where they are not wanted.

I as a rule I have no problems in spreading the word! Good , bad or otherwise!

So, if the powers that be over that business condone the treatment their customer's like that ...Hell No I wouldn't go back.

[trueblue1776]

Sorry.

I thought this was a thread about a nude gun range. The "r" and the "u" kinda run together when you're running at 1160x1280 resolution.

Never mind. Carry on.

As you were.

Me too, I was even gonna take some vacation time to check out this Nude range, instead it's a bunch of range Nazi's discussing how to yell at people who mind their own buisness.

Rules ARE rules.... especially at my nude range.

:D

[runninmike]

Unfortunately, many of these ranges do not screen nor train professional people with a notion that happy customers usually return. Some of the places I've been to have wannabe something or other black tshirt wearing velcro warrior employees standing around behind the counter talking about all of their knowledge of guns and shooting technique and often rudely treat some unknown customer like this was the 1st time they ever frequented a range-oh and that they, the employee, is a supreme authority over all and to prove it, is wearing the latest greatest expensive trendy type pistol with same trendy holster and horizontal or upside-down mounted magazine pouches placed just so on their gunbelt with a spring clip pocket knife(or 2 of them) in pants pkt ready to flip open in an instant to rip open a new package of targets or a candy bar or clean their nails with in a pinch.(I carry one of these)
And, it seems like this is becoming a trend at the ranges here where I live. I hardly go out to the indoor ranges and fewer gunstores anymore unfortunately because of this scenario. And worse yet, the up and coming young shooters of the next generation have to put up with it if they want a place to shoot and try to enjoy. There are a few friendly places not too far that I am able to do my recreational shooting at, and also a few really nice stores to shop at, but not as many as in the past, where it seemed almost all of the gun stores and ranges shared a unspoken token of shooter comraderie and reciprocated common human respect.
If treated like a 2nd class citizen at your local range/gunshop, spend your dough elsewhere and write to the owner about your unpleasant visit with specific employees mentioned and chances are that this employee has been complained about before and will be terminated or made to be more professional.
Best-MC

ps- after reading some earlier posts on range rules and safety, I'll add that rules are meant to be followed at all times as mundane as they may seem to those who have even the most experience, and those who do have much experience will know that mundane rules are not there to corral smart folks with stupid ones, but rather to protect them from one another.

[STAGE 2]

I'm not sure what other rules they implemented, but that rule has a reason. The range down the street from my house had someone come in, rent a gun, then shoot himself in the head with it. That incident has led many ranges to implement rental rules like that, or "rentals only for groups of 2 or more" or similar.

I understand why they implemented the rule, but NO it does not have a reason. The forms that one signs to get a membership at this range encompasses rental guns and is a complete waiver of liability.

They are covering their ass for something that they already have covered. The only person that it hurts is honest people. Its a complete pain in the butt to go down to try out a new pistol that just came in, but then remember you have to lug out your range bag not to use anything in it.

Just another example of poor lawyering and poor drafting.

[dwave]

I don't believe that poor lawyers are the only blame for that rule you are referring to STAGE 2, look at it this way: yes the waiver states that you will not be liable, but if someone comes to your range, rents a gun, and shoots himself in front of you, you will have to live with that image for the rest of your life. I don't know about you, but that is something that I would not want to see.

Maybe though there could be a compromise to that rule where you must either have a gun already, or come in a group. For people that have been coming for 1 year (or whatever), or have already brought a gun once, won't have to follow that rule anymore.

[ArmedBear]

I don't believe that poor lawyers are the only blame for that rule you are referring to STAGE 2, look at it this way: yes the waiver states that you will not be liable, but if someone comes to your range, rents a gun, and shoots himself in front of you, you will have to live with that image for the rest of your life. I don't know about you, but that is something that I would not want to see.

Maybe though there could be a compromise to that rule where you must either have a gun already, or come in a group. For people that have been coming for 1 year (or whatever), or have already brought a gun once, won't have to follow that rule anymore.

Yeah, that's about what the range does where it actually happened. There's no reason to go further.

[STAGE 2]

I don't believe that poor lawyers are the only blame for that rule you are referring to STAGE 2

Actually, yes they are. A competent lawyer should be able to properly draft a document that give the range complete liability protection without hindering good faith customers.


look at it this way: yes the waiver states that you will not be liable, but if someone comes to your range, rents a gun, and shoots himself in front of you, you will have to live with that image for the rest of your life. I don't know about you, but that is something that I would not want to see.

Your two statements have nothing to do with each other. Not renting a gun to someone is no guarantee that they will not commit suicide at the range. There are plenty documented stories of suicides at ranges where the person in question used their own pistol.

Furthermore, whether or not I want to see some guy check out has nothing to do with me wanting to be able to try a new gun without jumping through some unnecessary hoop.

Maybe though there could be a compromise to that rule where you must either have a gun already, or come in a group. For people that have been coming for 1 year (or whatever), or have already brought a gun once, won't have to follow that rule anymore.

Possibly, but the particular range I am refering to has many additional problems other than this stupid rule, so common sense isn't widely available.

[AmYisraelChai]

Actually, yes they are. A competent lawyer should be able to properly draft a document that give the range complete liability without hindering good faith customers.




.

I assume you mean "takes away the ranges liability" or something to that effect.

I also assume you are not a Lawyer. For the most part, waivers are meaningless in most all situations, no matter how well written. The courts do not give much weight or consideration to a document that has you sign your rights away. Case Law is very overwheelming on this issue. As a matter of fact, in a great many cases, people have been held less liable when no waiver was involved. When a waiver is involved, you have a written instrument that states you know some unsafe condition exists, yet you are still willing to accept consideration (money) for allowing people to do it under your direct or indirect control.

[dwave]

Actually, yes they are. A competent lawyer should be able to properly draft a document that give the range complete liability without hindering good faith customers.

Actually, no they are not always to blame. It is easy to put it on them when it hits the fan, but there is more to it than a well written document as AmYisraelChai has stated.

Your two statements have nothing to do with each other. Not renting a gun to someone is no guarantee that they will not commit suicide at the range. There are plenty documented stories of suicides at ranges where the person in question used their own pistol.

Yes they do have lots to do with each other. I said that IF a place had a good waiver, the owner still may decide to place a rent rule just to help prevent someone from blowing their brains out. Maybe there are documented stories about people using their own guns at ranges, but most people will do it at home or someplace else if they own their own gun.

[STAGE 2]

I also assume you are not a Lawyer.

Then you would be mistaken.

For the most part, waivers are meaningless in most all situations, no matter how well written.

...still mistaken


The courts do not give much weight or consideration to a document that has you sign your rights away.

...the agreement that I signed for membership at this range hardly qualifies as "signing my rights away".

As an attorney I reserve the right to blame attorneys first. I don't think its a stretch to say that a majority of our problems as gun owners have been caused by lawyers. I'm sure this can be carried over to society as a whole. To be perfectly frank I'd say only about 20% of the bar is actually knowledgable enough to competently practice. This isnt arrogance, but simply first hand experience.

In our case, given the particular language of the waiver that I signed, barring any gross negligence by the desk clerk in renting the gun, they aren't gonna be liable if someone commits suicide. Can a party sue... sure, but that doesn't mean they can collect. I guess if the range is really that paranoid then they can go with their "belt and suspenders" policy. But they do so at the risk of losing paying customers, and I am only one of many that have left made the choice to leave this range because of their ridiculous regulations.

[Otherguy Overby]

I shoot on my land. No range nazis allowed. :neener:

[AmYisraelChai]

Then you would be mistaken.



...still mistaken




...the agreement that I signed for membership at this range hardly qualifies as "signing my rights away".

As an attorney I reserve the right to blame attorneys first. I don't think its a stretch to say that a majority of our problems as gun owners have been caused by lawyers. I'm sure this can be carried over to society as a whole. To be perfectly frank I'd say only about 20% of the bar is actually knowledgable enough to competently practice. This isnt arrogance, but simply first hand experience.

In our case, given the particular language of the waiver that I signed, barring any gross negligence by the desk clerk in renting the gun, they aren't gonna be liable if someone commits suicide. Can a party sue... sure, but that doesn't mean they can collect. I guess if the range is really that paranoid then they can go with their "belt and suspenders" policy. But they do so at the risk of losing paying customers, and I am only one of many that have left made the choice to leave this range because of their ridiculous regulations.


Anytime you sign a document with exculpatory clauses you are in theory signing away a right of future recourse. Again, the courts are in the business of scrutinizing such things and will render them non enforceable for any number of reasons. Again, case law is such that it is within sound legal judgment to put into place policies that would reduce the chance of said event occurring, as opposed to relying on any form of hold harmless or waiver of liability document. in the event of Suicide in particular, this is even more of an issue as it is well beyond the risks that are usual and incidental to a gun range.

And as an observation, nothing more, you claim to be a Lawyer that makes the firm statement that only 20% of the bar is competent, yet in your first statement regarding this in another post, you place liability on the range as the solution.

[jashobeam]

Seriously! We, the employees, want things to run smoothly--business as usual. Anytime ANYONE breaks rules it is stressful. Bang-bang-bang-bang-bang. Some idiot rapid-firing. Every shooter knows this is a no-no because this is one of three rules explained to every shooter. Sometimes the perpetrator turns out to be an LEO who thinks that because he's a cop he has the right to handle his firearm any way that he sees fit (even on Ladies' Night when the range is packed).

The three rules that EVERY shooter at our range agrees to comply with by placing his initials next to each rule are as follows:

1. No rapid fire
This is an indoor range. We want people to hit the target, not the target carriers or the walls or the ceiling or the floor. Hitting the target carriers, which are made of steel, can result in ricochets.

2. No double taps
Same reason as above.

3. No head shots
We do not allow head shots on silhouette targets (or intentionally high shots on bulls-eye targets) because of the steel carriers that hold the targets. Also, (and this applies to all three rules as well) the target carriers move to and fro on a small nylon rope. A high miss could (and often does) sever the rope, rendering the shooting lane inoperable until the staff makes time to repair it.


As far as suicide prevention rules, from what I understand it is not the danger of a lawsuit but the danger of the city considering our business unsafe and refusing to allow us to operate within its limits. Too many accidents/deaths/suicides do not win favor. We must enforce efforts to minimize potential injuries. Allowing rules to be broken increases risk of accidents and leaves us vulnerable to be scrutinized by a local or state government agency. There are many regulations regarding firearms stores and indoor ranges. If someone (like an anti) were to document unsafe conditions or frequent unchecked disregard of range rules, a case could possibly be made to have the city close down the range. I am not a range owner, an RO, or a lawyer. I am an $8/hr employee who enjoys guns and likes to see people experience the joy of target shooting and gun ownership.

PS--All of the employees at the range are pretty cool about reprimanding rule-breakers. Everyone makes mistakes and gets a little carried away now and then; we understand. But don't make us confront you or your group twice on the same visit or the privilege of deciding to patronize our range may be removed from you.

[Molon Labe]

So why is "rapid fire" forbidden at most ranges? :confused:

[trueblue1776]

So why is "rapid fire" forbidden at most ranges? :confused:

same reason you don't drop the soap in prison, because you may get F'd in the A by some nazi. :eek:

[dwave]

1. No rapid fire
This is an indoor range. We want people to hit the target, not the target carriers or the walls or the ceiling or the floor. Hitting the target carriers, which are made of steel, can result in ricochets.


That is the reason for no rapid fire.

[NineseveN]

Every time I see this topic in the forum list, I swear I see "Nude range...would you return?" :what:

Then I think about it, and I don't think I would given the low biscuit to sausage ratio at most ranges.

[Lupinus]

Every time I see this topic in the forum list, I swear I see "Nude range...would you return?"
Hell no, most of the people at te range I go to are older guys....now on the night they do shooting classes for ladies :neener:

[STAGE 2]

Anytime you sign a document with exculpatory clauses you are in theory signing away a right of future recourse. Again, the courts are in the business of scrutinizing such things and will render them non enforceable for any number of reasons.

In certian cases yes, however this isn't a blanket statement by any means. If exclupatory clauses were useless then why do they appear in virtually every contract that is signed. We arent talking about anything unconscionable or a situation where the bargaining power of the parties in question is skewed. Nor is this agreement some huge boilerplate in size 4 font thats 13 pages long. The situations that you are citing arise occasionally, but given the ratio of successful contracts to judgments rendered, the amount of contracts overturned based on a limitation of liability is very small.

Again, case law is such that it is within sound legal judgment to put into place policies that would reduce the chance of said event occurring, as opposed to relying on any form of hold harmless or waiver of liability document. in the event of Suicide in particular, this is even more of an issue as it is well beyond the risks that are usual and incidental to a gun range.

Not necessarily. There is nothing preventing the range from addressing the suicide issue within the waiver. While I realize that most if not all people would like the feeling of extra legal protection, my point is that the added protection in this case is nothing but a "feeling". Even with the policy in place, if a suicide occurs the range will undoubtedly be sued. The question isn't how to keep them out of court, its how to keep them from having to pay any damages. The policy that they have in place now hurts their business more than it protects it. As a good lawyer its your job to give your client all of the options and outcomes and allow them to determine what is in their best interests. I have a feeling that this was not the case for this range.

And as an observation, nothing more, you claim to be a Lawyer that makes the firm statement that only 20% of the bar is competent, yet in your first statement regarding this in another post, you place liability on the range as the solution.

I don't claim to be anything. I worked very hard for my JD and I have met and read about enough other attorneys to have a rational basis for my statement about the bar. I dont see why this is so shocking. Look at any other profession. Most any gunsmith can polish a feed ramp or tweak a gun. But how many gunsmiths can do it well? How many can do it well enough to where youd trust your life to it? The number gets a whole lot smaller.

There are plenty of attorneys out there and most can do what you ask. The good ones are the ones that dont just do what the client asks but goes beyond it and asks whether this is truly in the best interests of the client and if not what alternatives can I present.

As for my liability comment, I was making dinenr and posting at the same time. Even the best attys are entitled to a typo on a gun board now and then.

[Stevie-Ray]

If it was the first time in 2 years, give 'em another shot. Be sure that you get the RO's name before you shoot. That way, if it does happen again, you know who to report and explain that if something is not done about rude treatment, you're done with that range. If it happens a third time, or the second time is worse, forget 'em. There's other places.

I won't be lectured at by some idiot over something I didn't do. I would have told him off and left for good.Insert the second quote into the first, and that's how I feel. If I deserve it, I'll take all the gas somebody throws at me, up to a point, of course. If I don't deserve it, you've just PO'd somebody that loves to scream back.

[SR_]

Send a letter to the owner of the range that basically restates what you put in your initial post. See what they say. Leave out your dad's comment.

Pehaps they have an employee that needs to an major attitude adjustment.

If you don't get a satisfactory response, then you have your answer. Go to the other range.

Life is just to short to deal with rude people.

[deadin]

Just a couple of observations:
If I were downrange and spotted someone handling a gun behind me, I would go to the RO and request that that person be ejected. Why should I trust some stranger to decide that his gun is "safe" when I am the one that might take it in the shorts if he made a mistake. (Also see my comment on "Zero Tolerance" below)

Why no "rapid fire" when all of your shots are hitting paper? Because the RO is probably sick and tired of trying to explain to the twerp three stations down why he can't act the same way. (Plus he doesn't have the time to specifically watch you to make sure they are "all" staying on target. He needs to police the whole line.)

Zero Tolerance? A real pain, but in certain situations, an absolute necessity. Safety on a firing range being one of them. Zero Tolerance levels the playing field for everybody. It's one rule that should be easy to understand and obey. Not, "Let's see, Position 5 has an expert in it so we can cut him some slack, Position 8 is a novice, so it's full rules for him. Position 11 might be OK to ease up on, but I will need to watch him. Now where was that expert? 4 or 6?
For those that don't believe in Zero Tolerance all I can say is "How many babies is it OK for a nurse to drop in the maternity ward?"

And for the 17 year old that was pissed because the rules said you must be 18 to rent movies at the library and he was "only" 7 days from being 18.
Why not bend the rules and say "Well, 7 days early is OK". How about 8 days? How about a month ? How about a year? The line has to be drawn somewhere. Too bad if it affects you. You'll outgrow it.

[GoBrush]

Since the 2nd closest range is only 20 minutes further "Go The Distance" and tell your friends to do the same. Man I get tired of these idiots.

[blacklisted]

The Range Master at Chabot was an egotistical JERK who yelled at me. I calmly took it and then yelled back, pointing out his error and embarassing him in the presence of his subordinate range masters. He fumbled an apology and I brushed him off. He deserved every bit of it. I never went back either.

Is there any way you could post the story? It sounds interesting. I go there sometimes and I have noticed that it is an entirely different place on weekdays. On weekends it is crouded and they are always yelling at someone. Most of the time the yelling is deserved (I see a lot of "ghetto" folks there). It's a decent place but I always feel like I'm being scrutinized because I'm younger than most shooters.

I go there because it's the only range in this area who I don't worry about checking my ID and giving me hell for shooting a handgun when I'm under 21 (I'm 18 and have the HSC).

I love reading range nazi threads, they make everything seem better because I haven't had the misfortune of seeing a range nazis yet.