[Drizzt]

Marines Ordered to Dump Iraq War Booty

By RAVI NESSMAN .c The Associated Press

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - Since they arrived, U.S. Marines have been doing their own kind of looting - grabbing Iraqi pistols, rifles, uniforms and pictures of Saddam Hussein.

On Friday, they were ordered to dump what they took or lose their rank.

``You did not conquer ... this country. Get off your high horse,'' Lt. Col. Michael Belcher told his officers. ``You took some thugs and ran them out.''

The commander of the 3rd Battalion, 7th Marines, reminded his soldiers that the Iraqi people allowed U.S.-led forces to oust Saddam Hussein. They deserve respect, he said, and that means no looting.

There will be no ``'I won this country back. I can take what I can get,''' Belcher said.

Then he pulled out a pile of booty already confiscated: a picture of Saddam with a bullseye drawn on it, ammunition magazines and Iraqi uniforms.

Stolen tear gas canisters particularly infuriated Belcher, who worried that a Marine might fire off a canister to disperse unruly crowds in the city.

``It's chemical warfare,'' Belcher said.

Soon, a group of quiet Marines glumly gathered to toss their booty onto an ever-growing pile.

They threw in Kalashnikov rifles, gas masks and sacks of bullets.

One Marine dropped an assault vest filled with ammunition clips.

Another put in a rocket-propelled grenade round.

Lance Cpl. Randall Taylor, 19, of Texarkana, Texas, came out of his Humvee carrying two Iraqi grenades he had hoped to use before leaving.

``I was gonna throw these,'' he said, smiling like a shamed child.

Other Marines were angry.

``You don't have to give that up, do you?'' Pfc. Michael Lara, 19, of Raymondville, Texas, asked as a colleague added a helmet to the pile.

Some Marines plotted to smuggle home smaller things - a pistol, Iraqi military patches ripped from uniforms, small pictures of Saddam.

They had been warned before against collecting war souvenirs, but some Marines had been rapidly collecting huge caches.

At first they took small things - knives, perhaps a pistol or two. But as they stumbled upon large armories filled with nearly every type of weapon in Iraqi's arsenal, they became more brazen, taking rifles and rocket-propelled grenade launchers.

A bartering economy emerged based on weaponry and cigarettes. One Marine offered an Iraqi sword for a pack of hard-to-get smokes. He was turned down. Hiding a military patch is one thing. Smuggling a sword is altogether different.

Cpl. Jesse Schutz, 21, of Omaha, Neb., happily surrendered two Kalashnikov rifles and swords a few days ago so they could be run over by a tank and destroyed.

``It just isn't worth it,'' he said. ``I can go back to Wal-Mart to buy a gun instead of stealing it from a country.''

04/11/03 15:53 EDT

[Ebbtide]

``It just isn't worth it,'' he said. ``I can go back to Wal-Mart to buy a gun instead of stealing it from a country.''

Nice!

[cordex]

Bugs me.
I'd like them to be able to bring back rifles, mags, helmets, patches ... whatever.

I'd discourage hand-grenades and RPG rounds ... mostly because of concerns about instability of the explosive.

[Kevlarman]

``It just isn't worth it,'' he said. ``I can go back to Wal-Mart to buy a gun instead of stealing it from a country.''

Not in California. :fire:

[QuarterBoreGunner]

And I can just imagine the single thought going through the minds of a lot of those soldiers....

EBAY!!! *kaaaaaaching*

[COHIBA]

wally world is selling AK's?

[Blackhawk]

``It just isn't worth it,'' he said. Nope. All you end up doing is taking all the risks only to have it confiscated upon returning to CONUS and ending up as a souvenir gracing the collection of some REMF who never deployed.

[rock jock]

These guys are crazy if they think can get away with bringing full-auto weapons home. This has been explicitly against the rules for a long time. Someone needs to tell these Marines about the long list of NFA rules they would be violating and they many years in prison they would spend by sneaking in an AK. If nothing else, it might make them more pro-SA than they are now.

[cordex]

Ebay?
I expected the head of that big toppled statue to end up on Ebay within a few hours.

[general]

Saw the clip that had the room with the shotguns in it. It breaks my heart to think these will be destroyed. Man, they could pay off some of the war by selling these items. I personally would like to volunteer to "dispose of" the excess ammo.:D

[Sir Galahad]

Nickles and dimes. If these guys were after the real money, they'd be rolling up Persian rugs and bringing those back to sell.

I also read that some GIs wrote their names on the wall of Saddam's palace and got reprimanded and made to scrub them off.

I think it's a crock of:cuss: . Guys can't get cigarettes ("oh, that's BAD for them!"---yeah, and AK rounds aren't?:rolleyes: ), can't write their names on a dictator's romper room wall, and can't take home something to show the grandkids. Whatever. :rolleyes:

[CZ-75]

Firearms and ordnance may be one thing, but the rest sure sounds PC to the nth.

I fully expect most of this stuff to go in the crusher if our guys didn't take it, or the Iraqis would take it themselves, though I hardly think they'd want helmets, patches, or, especially, pictures of Saddam.

GI bringbacks are a nice tradition that shouldn't stop. Sounds like eight years of Klinton had their effect. :rolleyes:

[Dannyboy]

Sounds like LTC Belcher needs to lighten up a little bit. Hopefully, this is just a local thing and doesn't affect all units.

[Leatherneck]

No way should the Marine Corps allow a single thing to be pilfered. If you didn't buy it, it's not yours. Pilfering/smuggling can quickly get out of hand if there's not a zero-tolerance policy. Too much theft could jeopardize the very image these guys fought to instill.

Yeah, I know: "neat stuff." But we shouldn't steal it from either individuals or the country.

TC
TFL Survivor

[Sir Galahad]

So all the Marines who brought back Nambus and swords from Iwo and Tarawa were wrong? In some recent cases, WW2 Marines have returned swords to the families of the Japanese officers who owned them (most of these swords have markings traceable to the owner's family.) The families were grateful because had those swords not been picked up, they would have rusted away by now.

[PvtPyle]

After the first gulf war Congress amended the UCMJ to forbid the bringing home of all military implements. That includes patches, bayos, uniforms, guns, you name it.

In order to bring anything home you have to get writen permission from your commander and then run it up to the theater command (in this case Franks or his office).

Good luck on that happening.

[4v50 Gary]

Personally I think "prizes" such as guns, flags, uniforms, medals and pictures of Saddam are fair game. In short, military stuff is always fair game (including regimental silverware, too bad for the Brits who lost theirs in the Revolution). Even guns are OK if they're not full auto. Let them keep those semi-auto sniper rifles, pistols or bolt actions. Art Museums, archaelogical sites, stores, religious sites, electronic toys, homes of non-combatants are no-no.

Even today art looted by GIs during WW II is returned to Europe. Generally dad brought home a prize and is too embarassed to return it and when dad has gone to the retirement home in the sky, the kids return the loot.

[Double Naught Spy]

No, looting items has NOT always been fair game. It has not been allowed by the US military since the 60s if not before. That doesn't mean that folks didn't get away with doing it.

Besides, the bottom line here is that the soldiers were told that they were not allowed to collect souveniers or war booty. They had their orders, regulations to abide by. Why they thought that just because they were in country that things changed for them as individuals is beyond me. Orders are orders. You don't get to pick and choose.

[CZ-75]

Somehow, I think officers will get more leeway in their "orders."

Tell me again how medals, patches, helmets, knives, uniforms are going to be of use to the Iraqi people? The original owners either didn't want it or won't be needing it, as the case may be.

[F4GIB]

It's the Bush Administration's policy. Our guys are just armed "policemen" throwing out the criminals. They won't be treated as warriors.

No US flag to fight and die under, no "war" souviners, untimately, I predict, not much praise either. Just like Korea, except that we are winning not negotiating a stalemate.

The American elites don't want to hurt the Iraqui sensibilities, don't you know. The tiny, moslem countries that make up the UN might take offense.

[rock jock]

Somehow, I think officers will get more leeway in their "orders."
You base this on what?

[WonderNine]

No spoils of war for you young grunt!

As we all know this was just the Bush crime family vs. the Hussein crime family.

[Kobun]

Your soldiers don't have the imagination to get those AK's back to the US without anyone noticing.

I know that quite a few Norwegians deployed in Lebanon for the UN, brought AK's back.
They covered the AK's with paper mache, sculptured like their G3's. They were painted, and even the weight felt right, as there was a real gun inside. :cool:
They just slung them and carried them onto the airplane.

Who would realy notice that extra rifle over in the corner? :D

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=43854

[CZ-75]

You base this on what?

The military caste system. Officers get more privileges and less scrutiny. I don't think some Major is going to go through every Captain's gear looking for patches and knives. I certainly don't think a Sergeant, who'd be most likely to be assigned the task would stick their neck out unless it was something grossly criminal, like smuggling in a firearm.

[seeker_two]

Our soldiers did all the fighting, so they should keep whatever they can get.

And I :barf: on any :cuss: PC military "officer" who court-martials any soldier for this "offense"...:fire:

[rock jock]

CZ,

I see your point and you might be right. I don't think, however, that any officers will feel exempt from this rule on firearms.

[CZ-75]

Nor did I expect them to. The BATF controls firearm imports, so it isn't just a military thing and hard to sweep under the rug.

There is no Bureau of Patches, Uniforms, and Souvenirs, etc. to oversee bring-backs. Easy for the smart non-com to avoid latrine duty when he gets back to CONUS by not rocking the boat. Grunts have no such authority and can't get him back (other than fragging).

[JeepDriver]

I personally would like to volunteer to "dispose of" the excess ammo.

I'm with Gereral!

I'd be willing to donate my time and energy to dispose of all that ammo! Heck I'll pay for the air fare to get there! :D :D

Getting to play with all that calss III stuff plus RPG's. Go off and find a sand dune and balst away! :evil:

[ahadams]

Now don't get me wrong - my dad was an Army chaplain in the Pacific Theater durring WWII with time in both New Guinea (from which he was medivac ed) and the P.I. He brought back all kinds of stuff including (though I didn't know this until I discovered it after he passed on) one each Brit and US handgrenade. There is nothing that clarifies your concentration quite so much as trying to sort through your late father's 50 year collection of shotgun shells (the guy never threw away a live round in his life) and pulling out a Brit "mills bomb" from the bottom of the pile with a half rusted pin and the base plug still in place [yes as a matter of fact it *did* turn out to be live - though I got the local police to coordinate giving it to the nearest Army EOD team ASAP and THEY were the ones allowed to find that out the old fashioned way.]

ah, but I digress. The point in allowing trophies at the end of WW II was *not* to allow GI's to go home and blow things up, but rather to establish that the Allies had totally dominated the countries in question. This is EXACTLY the perception which must be *avoided* in this instance. Just the fact that the US & Friends have smashed SH's government in less than a month of actual combat time has already sent the entire Arab world into a major depression. If you've been paying attention you'll have seen compared compared by the arabs to the Israeli victory in 1967 which effectively toasted off every major modern arab force within Israel's immediate reach - something which the entire arab world had declared 'impossible' right up to the moment it happened. Remember that right up to the time 3ID and the Marines demonstrated on live television that *they* ruled Baghdad, almost every arab in the world absolutely believed Baghdad Bob and Al Jazeera television.


So here's the deal: our folks were there to smash the SH fascist state, and NOT to conquer Iraq. That *must* be made clear since were fighting an uphill battle against the propaganda of al quaida, the 'palestinian authority', and various other arab terrorist groups who are trying to trying to raise a global jihad against "the new crusaders" (i.e. *us*). Now the arabs understand that every soldier [and marine] wants a souvenier and by publicly demanding that any taken must be turned in in a very public manner in front of God and the media and everyone that light colonel and his counterparts throughout the war zone are doing something that directly contradicts all of that 'crusader' propaganda.

Most of that stuff the Iraqis themselves don't want - they're more interested in televisions, air conditioners, furniture and the like (best quote I've seen so far from an Iraqi was "I myself have taken three doors!" - now there's a practical man!) and they could really care less about the 500 thousandth portrait of SH or a extra AK here or there; BUT by making it very clear that NONE of our forces are taking ANYTHING - not even a unit patch or a piece of a uniform - our guys are communicating something to the Arab 'man on the street' that all the terrorist propaganda in the world can't contradict: we're not there to take *anything*.

And of course that's the one message that will most seriously damage the fundraising and recruiting efforts of the terrorists, around the world. It will also confuse the, er, daylights out of the Chicoms, NKs, and the like as it will make no sense at all from their frame of reference - capitalists who don't pillage everything they see? :what: what does that mean??? :what: talk about messing with their minds... :cool:

[Drizzt]

ahadams:

Those are all good points, and I have no problem with that supposition, but what if we introduce capitalism into the picture, and a soldier wants to take home a memento.

How about if they purchase the item?

Heck, everyone over there's broke, should be some good deals going....

Trade ya a Hershey bar for those helmets....

[ahadams]

I found it two days later in a trunk of his that was in the attic of the old farm place to which my mother and father had initially retired. It was a MK 2 pineapple right out of the movies. Baseplug still in place on that one. This time the local deputy and I sat around for 3 hours talking handguns and self-defense cartridges (this was *rural* Wisconsin, where all the real people live) until the EOD guys from Ft. McCoy got there - they got to blow this one up too (I'll explain why in a minute) and yep, it was live as well. Oh by the way in that trunk there were also pictures of my father as part of several combat patrols in the P.I. and no, I have absolutely no idea how he talked his way into that sort of thing, but there he was, none the less.

A Note on old handgrenades: the reason I let the EOD boys play with them rather than doing it myself is rather simple. You see while the explosive charge in handgrenades can remain 'good' for any number of years, all US handgrenade FUSEs contain black powder which is why those fuses are only rated as good for five years, or at least that was true up through 1990 which is the last time I got medically retired out of civil service, et al. If they're more than 5 years old, their actual burn time is anywhere from infinity to zero, and it tends to be closer to the zero end in many instances - thus having the EOD guys do their thing with them sure beat me trying to explain blowing myself up, you know?
:rolleyes:

[CZ-75]

Do you really think the Arab man-on-the-street will really care? I mean some of these folks are mad at the Iraqis for welcoming us. This won't get the same kind of airplay on al-Jazeera that more visible issues will.

I view this as the same kind of appeasement pro-2nd groups try with the demokrats. Nothing is ever good enough.

I'm thinking we should take another two weeks to deal with Syria and forget how the arab street thinks. Overwhelming force would do worlds more good than keeping our guys from taking souvenirs.

[ahadams]

Drizzt - you've got a good point, I guess the issue there would be how would you establish a medium of exchange that not only *was* equitable but allso appeared equitable above all question in the Arab media (and that's really who our guys are playing to there - as well as the leftist media here and in Europe)? That could be a tough one!

[ahadams]

CZ - it's *already* having and effect man - the Arab media are doing the "they're all liars" thing and combining actions like those of the light colonel in question with the actual withdrawal of our forces in the next year will have a lasting effect on the arab 'man on the street'. To a certain extent it already has. Did you notice the reports of all of those "suicide" (actually homicide) bomber vests they keep finding? those aren't supposed to be there - folks were supposed to have been motivated to pick them up and use them, rather than let our guys take them all out and blow them up in a ditch. The age of the 'arab nation' conquering at all costs appears to have taken a serious set back, and we've only just begun.

[CZ-75]

Actual withdrawal will have an effect, but taking souvenirs won't.

As to finding the "homicide" vests, I'd say the attitude of the Iraqis themselves and our quick victory did the trick to preclude their use. Seems that the regime folks don't want to die for a regime that is no more and the foreign muslim volunteers don't see a reason to go "BOOM" when the locals wouldn't give a flip anyway and be inspired to repel the "infidels" b/c of their "sacrifice."

Time to get the things that have an effect straight and discard the eyewash that sounds good in the rags, but has little real world value.

[RKCheung]

Unfortunately, no one is getting to play with all these AK's and RPG's except for EOD. You can hear them blowing the caches several times a day. Very sad actually - all these great toys going to waste.

Although taking of war trophies is prohibited, commanders CAN take home some stuff on behalf of the unit.

Don't worry though, I'm sure everyone here will manage to squirrel away some small memento away in a sock somewhere. ;)

[Leatherneck]

I think Arlin's theory has merit, and will resonate with at least some Arabs; in addition, it certainly does epitomize "The High Road" type of thinking.

I, too, expect that barter is already taking place, and given the proclivity of most of the Middle East to that sort of trade, will only increase. Should be some pretty good deals...

What bothers me no little bit is the sneaking in of gun control language from time to time on the part of American military folks. I'm just waiting for the Brady bunch to weigh in with "Now we have to disarm the Iraqis: it's for the Children, doncha know...:rolleyes:

TC
TFL Survivor

[ahadams]

Leatherneck wrote:

What bothers me no little bit is the sneaking in of gun control language from time to time on the part of American military folks.

This is no joke folks. As some of you know I did four years enlisted, got out did ROTC and went back in as an ossifer until I was disabled out. although my original BPED (that's base pay entry date - the day I actually went on active duty the first time) was 6 Feb 75, because of my ROTC time my adjusted BPED was sometime in 1979 and my "year group" (when they slapped me with the gold bars) was 1983. What most people do NOT realize is that officer "attrition" (i.e. people getting out as fast as they could) wa so heavy in the Army during the clintonista reign that EVERYBODY (and I mean EVERYBODY) from my year group who was still on active duty when the time came made at least major. No :cuss:, they were that short of qualified bodies.

In order to give you some idea of how the Army is supposed to work, there's supposed to be about 3 to 5 percent wash out between 2LT and 1LT, about another 15 percent washout between 1LT and CPT, and an additional 25 -30 percent or so washout between CPT and MAJ. [USMC rates are higher, USAF rates are lower, and I have no idea about USN washout rates.]

When the switchover occurred from .45s to 9mms orders came down to many Army units to use available assests (cutting torches, usually in the motor pool [for civiliians: those are guys who maintain the vehicles]) to cut their .45s into one inch squares. That one also originated from the clintonistas - have a buddy who had to sit there and watch the guy with the torch do the cutting and sign for each pistol so cut up. This was done specifically to avoid allowing the .45s into the surplus weapons pool.

This is not to say that we don't have some very good officers in the O4 to O6 grades (that's major through bird colonel for you civilians) in the Army, but remember there are still more than two or three folks hanging around who got there by, well still being in the green suit and breathing when the time came.

something to think about, anyway...sorry for the rant, but I kinda thought it needed to be said.

[general]

aaahhhhrrrgghhhh... so many .45's.... lost forever. Heartbreaking.
The 1911 is a work of art and should be treated as such.

[Preacherman]

I think that souvenirs are making it back already... a little bird down at Fort Polk tells me that a fairly significant number of AK47 full-auto receivers (minus the rest of the gun, just the receivers) are already floating around the world in various seabags, duffel bags and post office parcels! :D

[CZ-75]

The local rag had picture of a flatbed truck filled with Mausers from the Iraqi regime, probably to be scraped. They were just tossing them in like cordwood.

[Drizzt]

Air Force, Central Command set war trophy policy

by Master Sgt. Scott Elliott
Air Force Print News

04/21/03 - WASHINGTON -- Servicemembers deployed supporting Operation Iraqi Freedom may be tempted to bring home souvenirs of their war experience, but Air Force legal officials are urging them to think twice.

Depending on the item, bringing home a "war trophy" could lead to court-martial, said Lt. Col. Karen L. Manos, legal staff officer in the Air Force's operations law division at the Pentagon.

Air Force Joint Instruction 31-217, "Control and Registration of War Trophies and War Trophy Firearms," has been in effect since the Vietnam era, Manos said. The instruction specifies what a servicemember must do to legally bring home a war trophy, and lists items that are not allowed to be brought home.

"(The instruction) lets you bring home certain things, but it requires written permission from the theater commander," Manos said. "If you don't get permission, it would be like theft -- it would actually violate the Uniform Code of Military Justice and (the perpetrator) could be court-martialed."

Two airmen were prosecuted by court-martial for violating the instruction following Operation Desert Storm.

According to the instruction, servicemembers are not allowed to claim the following as trophies:

-- Property belonging to the United States or an allied nation.

-- Nameplates pulled from any type of equipment.

-- Live ammunition, flammables, explosives or any item containing explosives.

-- Weapons that are defined as firearms by the National Firearms Act.

-- Electronic equipment, such as radios or radar.

-- Government-owned or privately owned equipment of the enemy that is not designed for individual issue.

-- Government-owned or privately owned articles of a household nature that have intrinsic value, such as coin collections or jewelry.

-- Religious items.

-- Items that have military research, training or intelligence value.

-- Items obtained in violation of international law.

-- Weapons that emit gas.

"What you're left with, basically, are individual issue items," Manos said. "An Iraqi mess kit, or something like that, would be fine."

One potential gray area in the instruction is the collection of nonlethal items of vague military value, the colonel said.

"A lot of people are collecting things like pictures of Saddam Hussein and Iraqi flags," she said. "A potential argument would be that it's government-owned equipment not designed to be issued to an individual. It would probably be OK, but you'd still need permission to bring it home."

Besides the Air Force joint instruction, Central Command General Order 1A prohibits weapons, munitions and military articles and equipment from being brought home as souvenirs.

Customs laws and postal regulations also prohibit shipment of certain items through the mail. According to the Air Force's chief of postal policy, sending hazardous material through the mail could endanger innocent bystanders because the military often uses commercial airlines to carry its mail.

"Commercial airlines have a requirement to provide safe flights to their passengers," Bob Eichholz said. "We don't want the Federal Aviation Administration or commercial carriers to start putting restrictions on our mail."

Manos said that, besides safety concerns, the instruction and general orders are intended to help the American military keep the moral high ground.

"They were established for good order and discipline," she said. "We don't want to have U.S. servicemembers acting like those of some other nations, where they can be accused of pillaging and stealing everything in sight."

The key thing to remember, Manos said, is that there is a right way to collect and bring home souvenirs -- servicemembers simply have to follow the rules.

"The regulations recognize that servicemembers want to be able to bring something home to show they were part of a war and played an important part," she said. "The regulations are a way of controlling a natural human desire -- they're just making sure it doesn't get out of hand."

http://www.af.mil/news/Apr2003/42103102.shtml

[longeyes]

"It's the Bush Administration's policy. Our guys are just armed "policemen"
throwing out the criminals. They won't be treated as warriors.

No US flag to fight and die under, no "war" souviners, untimately, I predict, not
much praise either. Just like Korea, except that we are winning not negotiating a
stalemate.

The American elites don't want to hurt the Iraqui sensibilities, don't you know.
The tiny, moslem countries that make up the UN might take offense."

Very well said. They are functionaries, not warriors, and not very well compensated ones at that. We are still embarrassed to say that we fought this war for the U.S. and not for Iraq. If that's not "PC" I don't know what is.

[jimpeel]

How is the taking of militaria collectibles "looting" of the country and its citizens? The stuff is going to be destroyed anyway; so how do the people or the country benefit from these items being thrown onto a trash pile? I think there is too much paranoia about us looking bad.

Now if they were throwing 5,000 year old antiquities on the pile ...