Trip20
January 31, 2006, 12:41 PM
To anyone who is interested, click here (http://www.legis.state.wi.us/insession/assembly/indexvideo.htm) to watch the debate on the Assembly floor.
Wish us luck... :cool:
Wish us luck... :cool:
WI: State Assembly to vote for CCW veto override (watch the action)
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StopTheGrays
January 31, 2006, 01:19 PM
Just started.
medic_guns
January 31, 2006, 01:22 PM
good luck. I hope they override the veto
71Commander
January 31, 2006, 01:28 PM
Can't watch. Need a good color man.:p
AJ Dual
January 31, 2006, 01:30 PM
I am feeling:
:) :rolleyes: :fire: :cool: :cuss: :p :banghead: :barf: ;) :uhoh: :what: :D :neener: :o :eek: :evil: :( :mad: :scrutiny:
Rinse, lather, repeat...
:) :rolleyes: :fire: :cool: :cuss: :p :banghead: :barf: ;) :uhoh: :what: :D :neener: :o :eek: :evil: :( :mad: :scrutiny:
Rinse, lather, repeat...
medic_guns
January 31, 2006, 01:31 PM
Did u just hear the brother talking about the passing of CS King and crying about the CCW veto override? What a joke
StopTheGrays
January 31, 2006, 01:31 PM
recess for caucus
Trip20
January 31, 2006, 01:33 PM
In session for all of one half hour, and now we begin the 7,000 hour caucus. :fire:
sturmruger
January 31, 2006, 01:35 PM
We kind of knew this would happen. If they were smart they would have taken the vote now while they were missing a few people. Of course they might not have been missing the right people to do that.
cosine
January 31, 2006, 01:35 PM
Darn, I missed it. Was it the old, tired soundbites you hear all the time, along with plenty of just good 'ole preaching to the crowd?
AJ Dual
January 31, 2006, 02:05 PM
Yes, the caucus was expected.
If the Democrats were confident of anyone flipping to uphold the veto, they'd have gone straight for the vote.
There's no point in the Republicans calling the caucus, as it's a party caucus, and they don't have access to work on any potential Democratic flippers to stay the course.
At worst, it's neutral. Otherwise, it's as Dick (Monkeleg) said, it's a good sign of Democratic weakness.
My main worry is that VanAkkeren and Steinbrink are playing the "mystery legislator game" just to squeeze maximum concessions from Doyle and their party, and they had no real interest in us or CCW other than as leverage.
The only good explanation for our side about their tight lips is that they both knew they were going all the way to the end for us, and felt the mystery game was easier. That way you've got both sides sucking up to you instead of our side sucking up, and two weeks of incessant threats from their leadership and the Govenor.
Unfortunately, the caucus is a two-edged sword. The immediate retreat into caucus, and how long they stay in caucus is a good sign of how strong our position was. Of course, the longer they're in there the longer they have to come up with pressure, bribes, appointments, power, to lure the wafflers away...
If the Democrats were confident of anyone flipping to uphold the veto, they'd have gone straight for the vote.
There's no point in the Republicans calling the caucus, as it's a party caucus, and they don't have access to work on any potential Democratic flippers to stay the course.
At worst, it's neutral. Otherwise, it's as Dick (Monkeleg) said, it's a good sign of Democratic weakness.
My main worry is that VanAkkeren and Steinbrink are playing the "mystery legislator game" just to squeeze maximum concessions from Doyle and their party, and they had no real interest in us or CCW other than as leverage.
The only good explanation for our side about their tight lips is that they both knew they were going all the way to the end for us, and felt the mystery game was easier. That way you've got both sides sucking up to you instead of our side sucking up, and two weeks of incessant threats from their leadership and the Govenor.
Unfortunately, the caucus is a two-edged sword. The immediate retreat into caucus, and how long they stay in caucus is a good sign of how strong our position was. Of course, the longer they're in there the longer they have to come up with pressure, bribes, appointments, power, to lure the wafflers away...
Trip20
January 31, 2006, 02:20 PM
I think I'm going to be sick. :barf:
There, much better.
The partisan caucus can last as long as it wishes, correct? I mean, there's no time limit that I'm aware of, is this assumption true?
There, much better.
The partisan caucus can last as long as it wishes, correct? I mean, there's no time limit that I'm aware of, is this assumption true?
StopTheGrays
January 31, 2006, 02:23 PM
WI: State Assembly to vote for CCW veto override (watch the action)
More like "suffer the inaction". :uhoh:
Any word yet from anybody who is there?
More like "suffer the inaction". :uhoh:
Any word yet from anybody who is there?
Trip20
January 31, 2006, 02:24 PM
StopTheGrays - that's so true, it's funny: "inaction."
Why didn't I think of that.
No word yet. I plan on calling Dick Baker (MonkeyLeg here at THR), but there's no point in doing at this point.
Why didn't I think of that.
No word yet. I plan on calling Dick Baker (MonkeyLeg here at THR), but there's no point in doing at this point.
Dolomite
January 31, 2006, 02:26 PM
Let's take a trip in the old way-back machine, and look at what led up to the previous override attempt(please keep in mind that this story is two years old):
"http://www.madison.com/wisconsinstatejournal/local/65836.php1/22/04 - Although the bill passed the Assembly 64-35 in November, two votes shy of the two-thirds needed to override the governor, Republicans were optimistic about their chances when it comes back to them, perhaps as early as Tuesday.
That's because two of the original votes against the bill were by Republican Reps. Luther Olsen of Berlin and John Townsend of Fond du Lac. <
Now, "they're on board. All of the Republicans are on board," said Rep. Scott Gunderson, R-Union Grove, the chief sponsor of the bill in the Assembly. Republicans control the Assembly 59-39.
Olsen and Townsend declined to respond to requests for interviews Thursday. But if they do opt to override, at least one of the seven Democrats who backed the bill originally would need to switch his or her vote to keep the provision from becoming law.
Three - Reps. Marlin Schneider of Wisconsin Rapids, Wayne Wood of Janesville and Terry Van Akkeren of Sheboygan - said Thursday they intended to vote in favor of an override. A spokesman for Rep. Barbara Gronemus, D-Whitehall, said she was likely to support an override based on the mail and phone calls coming into her office.
Reps. Gary Sherman, D-Port Wing, John Steinbrink, D-Pleasant Prairie, and Amy Sue Vruwink, D-Milladore, declined to discuss their positions"
"http://www.madison.com/wisconsinstatejournal/local/65836.php1/22/04 - Although the bill passed the Assembly 64-35 in November, two votes shy of the two-thirds needed to override the governor, Republicans were optimistic about their chances when it comes back to them, perhaps as early as Tuesday.
That's because two of the original votes against the bill were by Republican Reps. Luther Olsen of Berlin and John Townsend of Fond du Lac. <
Now, "they're on board. All of the Republicans are on board," said Rep. Scott Gunderson, R-Union Grove, the chief sponsor of the bill in the Assembly. Republicans control the Assembly 59-39.
Olsen and Townsend declined to respond to requests for interviews Thursday. But if they do opt to override, at least one of the seven Democrats who backed the bill originally would need to switch his or her vote to keep the provision from becoming law.
Three - Reps. Marlin Schneider of Wisconsin Rapids, Wayne Wood of Janesville and Terry Van Akkeren of Sheboygan - said Thursday they intended to vote in favor of an override. A spokesman for Rep. Barbara Gronemus, D-Whitehall, said she was likely to support an override based on the mail and phone calls coming into her office.
Reps. Gary Sherman, D-Port Wing, John Steinbrink, D-Pleasant Prairie, and Amy Sue Vruwink, D-Milladore, declined to discuss their positions"
Trip20
January 31, 2006, 02:32 PM
Barbara Gronemus, D-Whitehall, said she was likely to support an override based on the mail and phone calls coming into her office.
See, that stuff works people!!!
See, that stuff works people!!!
LotI
January 31, 2006, 03:04 PM
See, that stuff works people!!!
Which way did she vote 2 years ago?
I sent my legislator (Democrat) a note telling her that I vote(I do) and that I would appreciate her support to override.
btw...still in recess.
Which way did she vote 2 years ago?
I sent my legislator (Democrat) a note telling her that I vote(I do) and that I would appreciate her support to override.
btw...still in recess.
hoggin
January 31, 2006, 03:37 PM
what if any tv channel is this on if any in the Milwaukee area specificaly west allis if it makes any difference thanx
Dolomite
January 31, 2006, 03:43 PM
Barb Gronemus has been a solid ppa supporter since before 2004.
It's not going to be on TV while it's in session - the process is waaaaay too boring.
It's not going to be on TV while it's in session - the process is waaaaay too boring.
kfranz
January 31, 2006, 03:55 PM
To anyone who is interested, click here to watch the debate on the Assembly floor.
While there is still no action on the screen, the music is pretty.... :rolleyes:
While there is still no action on the screen, the music is pretty.... :rolleyes:
AJ Dual
January 31, 2006, 03:56 PM
Okay,
Here are the rules.
- All guesses have to be posted at least an hour before the time you guess on this thread.
- You only get one guess (no editing)
- Winner is the closest in minutes to the actual time the Legislature is back in session.
- In the event of a high/low tie on either side of the actual resumption of the session, (i.e. Guess 1: 9:05 p.m., Actual 9:10 p.m. Guess 2 9:15 p.m. etc...) the low guess (ex: 9:05 p.m.) breaks the tie and is the winner.
- Any guess after 12:01 a.m. on WEDNESDAY needs to have the DATE on it. UNDATED time entries will be ASSUMED to be for today, Tuesday, Jan. 31st.
My official guess is that they come out of caucus today at 10:23 p.m. CST.
Place yer bets!
Winner gets a Gary Sherman dartboard! :D
Here are the rules.
- All guesses have to be posted at least an hour before the time you guess on this thread.
- You only get one guess (no editing)
- Winner is the closest in minutes to the actual time the Legislature is back in session.
- In the event of a high/low tie on either side of the actual resumption of the session, (i.e. Guess 1: 9:05 p.m., Actual 9:10 p.m. Guess 2 9:15 p.m. etc...) the low guess (ex: 9:05 p.m.) breaks the tie and is the winner.
- Any guess after 12:01 a.m. on WEDNESDAY needs to have the DATE on it. UNDATED time entries will be ASSUMED to be for today, Tuesday, Jan. 31st.
My official guess is that they come out of caucus today at 10:23 p.m. CST.
Place yer bets!
Winner gets a Gary Sherman dartboard! :D
Timmy
January 31, 2006, 04:04 PM
2:01pm
SCI
January 31, 2006, 04:07 PM
2:03 pm
scout26
January 31, 2006, 04:07 PM
5:35 pm today
10:06 am Wednesday
2:43 pm Thursday
3:22 pm Friday
10:06 am Wednesday
2:43 pm Thursday
3:22 pm Friday
StopTheGrays
January 31, 2006, 04:08 PM
Feeling a little :uhoh: , and a little :barf: , and a little :) all at the same time. I wonder how long we have to wait for a vote?
Trip20
January 31, 2006, 04:09 PM
Back into session. Roll call just finished.
BigRedBowtie
January 31, 2006, 04:10 PM
I just pulled up the video- taking roll?
tater_salad
January 31, 2006, 04:11 PM
yep, they're back in session. for at least 2 minutes this time hopefully :rolleyes:
phorvick
January 31, 2006, 04:11 PM
am I reading it right 64Y 32N ?? meaning the veto is over-ridden?
cosine
January 31, 2006, 04:12 PM
8:28 p.m. cst
Edit: Way off. Maybe I'll learn to check up on things myself and read the whole thread before I post.
Edit: Way off. Maybe I'll learn to check up on things myself and read the whole thread before I post.
tater_salad
January 31, 2006, 04:12 PM
no, they haven't voted yet
tater_salad
January 31, 2006, 04:13 PM
and my audio just stopped from the feed, what a great time for that :banghead:
Aquaholic
January 31, 2006, 04:14 PM
Anybody else lose the sound? I have the video...
tater_salad
January 31, 2006, 04:15 PM
[QUOTE=Aquaholic]I neutered my dog today. Now he's a liberal.[QUOTE]
I love it
(and the sound's back!)
I love it
(and the sound's back!)
cosine
January 31, 2006, 04:17 PM
Anybody else lose the sound? I have the video...
Here too. And it looks like they are debating the bill right now too. :banghead:
Edit: Audio is back!
Here too. And it looks like they are debating the bill right now too. :banghead:
Edit: Audio is back!
bg
January 31, 2006, 04:18 PM
I was just listening to the NRA's take on this. Pretty interesting.
http://www.nranews.com/nra.html
http://www.nranews.com/nra.html
Trip20
January 31, 2006, 04:22 PM
Not passed.
tater_salad
January 31, 2006, 04:23 PM
i can't believe it
Aquaholic
January 31, 2006, 04:23 PM
Son of a B.....
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
LotI
January 31, 2006, 04:23 PM
Our state stinks
BigRedBowtie
January 31, 2006, 04:24 PM
who flipped?
kfranz
January 31, 2006, 04:24 PM
:banghead:
scout26
January 31, 2006, 04:25 PM
OMG......
I feel like Steve McQueen at the end of "The Sand Pebbles"
"What the he!! happened ???.........WHAT THE HE!! HAPPENED ?!?!?!?!?!?!?"
I feel like Steve McQueen at the end of "The Sand Pebbles"
"What the he!! happened ???.........WHAT THE HE!! HAPPENED ?!?!?!?!?!?!?"
Trip20
January 31, 2006, 04:26 PM
Dont' know who flipped. I'm sure it's Van Akerren and Stein&*(%^
cosine
January 31, 2006, 04:27 PM
Boy, it's good that THR has a no-cursing policy, or I would be saying some pretty spicy things right now. I got the audio back on the video feed just in time hear it voted down.
Best I can do: (and I'll let it be known that I have never used this smiley before, and I never thought I'd find a place to use it. I never liked it that much, but right now it expresses what I want to say: )(And no, that smiling smiley was not supposed to be there, if anyone saw it.)
:cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :cuss:
And finally:
:banghead: :fire: :banghead: :fire: :banghead: :fire: :banghead: :fire:
Best I can do: (and I'll let it be known that I have never used this smiley before, and I never thought I'd find a place to use it. I never liked it that much, but right now it expresses what I want to say: )(And no, that smiling smiley was not supposed to be there, if anyone saw it.)
:cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :cuss:
And finally:
:banghead: :fire: :banghead: :fire: :banghead: :fire: :banghead: :fire:
Aquaholic
January 31, 2006, 04:28 PM
And then there's this JackAss talking about kids getting shot in Milwaukee. BY BADGUYS WITH GUNS YOU DUMBSH... ARRRGGGH.
StopTheGrays
January 31, 2006, 04:28 PM
.
GregGry
January 31, 2006, 04:28 PM
This is unbelievable..
wiski
January 31, 2006, 04:28 PM
Dont' know who flipped. I'm sure it's Van Akerren and Stein&*(%^
Yup, both.
vote'em out!
WISCONSIN ASSEMBLY
2005-2006 SESSION
Speaker Gard
SB 403
BY ZIEN
CARRYING A CONCEALED WEAPON
PASS NOTWITHSTANDING OBJECTIONS OF GOVERNOR
AYES - 64 NAYS - 34 NOT VOTING - 1 PAIRED - 0
A N NV NAME
Y AINSWORTH R
Y ALBERS R
Y BALLWEG R
N BENEDICT D
N BERCEAU D
Y BIES R
N BLACK D
N BOYLE D
N COLON D
N CULLEN D
Y DAVIS R
N FIELDS D
Y FITZGERALD R
Y FREESE R
Y FRISKE R
Y GIELOW R
Y GOTTLIEB R
N GRIGSBY D
Y GRONEMUS D
Y GUNDERSON R
Y GUNDRUM R
Y HAHN R
N HEBL D
Y HINES R
Y HONADEL R
Y HUBLER D
Y HUEBSCH R
Y HUNDERTMARK R
Y JENSEN R
Y JESKEWITZ R
Y KAUFERT R
Y KERKMAN R
N KESSLER D
A N NV NAME
Y KESTELL R
Y KLEEFISCH R
Y KRAWCZYK R
Y KREIBICH R
N KREUSER D
N KRUSICK D
Y LAMB R
Y LASEE R
N LEHMAN D
Y LEMAHIEU R
Y LOEFFELHOLZ R
Y LOTHIAN R
Y MCCORMICK R
Y MEYER R
N MOLEPSKE D
Y MONTGOMERY R
Y MOULTON R
Y MURSAU R
Y MUSSER R
Y NASS R
N NELSON D
Y NERISON R
Y NEWCOMER R
Y NISCHKE R
Y OTT R
Y OWENS R
x PARISI D
Y PETROWSKI R
Y PETTIS R
N POCAN D
N POPE-ROBERTS D
Y PRIDEMORE R
Y RHOADES R
A N NV NAME
N RICHARDS D
Y SCHNEIDER D
N SEIDEL D
N SHERIDAN D
N SHERMAN D
N SHILLING D
N SINICKI D
N STASKUNAS D
N STEINBRINK D
Y STONE R
Y STRACHOTA R
Y SUDER R
N TOLES D
Y TOWNS R
Y TOWNSEND R
N TRAVIS D
N TURNER D
Y UNDERHEIM R
N VAN AKKEREN D
Y VAN ROY R
Y VOS R
Y VRUWINK D
Y VUKMIR R
Y WARD R
N WASSERMAN D
Y WIECKERT R
N WILLIAMS, A. D
Y WILLIAMS, M. R
Y WOOD R
N YOUNG D
N ZEPNICK D
N ZIEGELBAUER D
Y SPEAKER R
IN CHAIR: FREESE
NO VACANT DISTRICTS
SEQUENCE NO. 462
Tuesday, January 31, 2006
2:19 PM
Yup, both.
vote'em out!
WISCONSIN ASSEMBLY
2005-2006 SESSION
Speaker Gard
SB 403
BY ZIEN
CARRYING A CONCEALED WEAPON
PASS NOTWITHSTANDING OBJECTIONS OF GOVERNOR
AYES - 64 NAYS - 34 NOT VOTING - 1 PAIRED - 0
A N NV NAME
Y AINSWORTH R
Y ALBERS R
Y BALLWEG R
N BENEDICT D
N BERCEAU D
Y BIES R
N BLACK D
N BOYLE D
N COLON D
N CULLEN D
Y DAVIS R
N FIELDS D
Y FITZGERALD R
Y FREESE R
Y FRISKE R
Y GIELOW R
Y GOTTLIEB R
N GRIGSBY D
Y GRONEMUS D
Y GUNDERSON R
Y GUNDRUM R
Y HAHN R
N HEBL D
Y HINES R
Y HONADEL R
Y HUBLER D
Y HUEBSCH R
Y HUNDERTMARK R
Y JENSEN R
Y JESKEWITZ R
Y KAUFERT R
Y KERKMAN R
N KESSLER D
A N NV NAME
Y KESTELL R
Y KLEEFISCH R
Y KRAWCZYK R
Y KREIBICH R
N KREUSER D
N KRUSICK D
Y LAMB R
Y LASEE R
N LEHMAN D
Y LEMAHIEU R
Y LOEFFELHOLZ R
Y LOTHIAN R
Y MCCORMICK R
Y MEYER R
N MOLEPSKE D
Y MONTGOMERY R
Y MOULTON R
Y MURSAU R
Y MUSSER R
Y NASS R
N NELSON D
Y NERISON R
Y NEWCOMER R
Y NISCHKE R
Y OTT R
Y OWENS R
x PARISI D
Y PETROWSKI R
Y PETTIS R
N POCAN D
N POPE-ROBERTS D
Y PRIDEMORE R
Y RHOADES R
A N NV NAME
N RICHARDS D
Y SCHNEIDER D
N SEIDEL D
N SHERIDAN D
N SHERMAN D
N SHILLING D
N SINICKI D
N STASKUNAS D
N STEINBRINK D
Y STONE R
Y STRACHOTA R
Y SUDER R
N TOLES D
Y TOWNS R
Y TOWNSEND R
N TRAVIS D
N TURNER D
Y UNDERHEIM R
N VAN AKKEREN D
Y VAN ROY R
Y VOS R
Y VRUWINK D
Y VUKMIR R
Y WARD R
N WASSERMAN D
Y WIECKERT R
N WILLIAMS, A. D
Y WILLIAMS, M. R
Y WOOD R
N YOUNG D
N ZEPNICK D
N ZIEGELBAUER D
Y SPEAKER R
IN CHAIR: FREESE
NO VACANT DISTRICTS
SEQUENCE NO. 462
Tuesday, January 31, 2006
2:19 PM
cosine
January 31, 2006, 04:29 PM
And then there's this JackAss talking about kids getting shot in Milwaukee. BY BADGUYS WITH GUNS YOU DUMBSH... ARRRGGGH.
I know. :banghead: :banghead: :fire: :fire:
I know. :banghead: :banghead: :fire: :fire:
tater_salad
January 31, 2006, 04:30 PM
I can't even watch anymore, it's making me sick
StopTheGrays
January 31, 2006, 04:32 PM
:barf: :( :mad:
Stauffenberg
January 31, 2006, 04:36 PM
Come November, all the gun voters in this state are gonna make it look less like an election and more like the French Revolution.
IAJack
January 31, 2006, 04:37 PM
I would start the campaign against those who voted no TODAY!
Get involved and get em out of office along with the Governer!
Get involved and get em out of office along with the Governer!
cosine
January 31, 2006, 04:38 PM
Speaking of November, I'll finally be able to vote! You :cuss: right know who I WON'T be voting for and who I WILL be voting for.
Aquaholic
January 31, 2006, 04:39 PM
Come November, all the gun voters in this state are gonna make it look less like an election and more like the French Revolution.
Wishful thinking. We support hunters on gun issues. If they supported ours, this would've been easy. Even in Zien's district, the hunters I talked to couldn't care less about this bill.
Wishful thinking. We support hunters on gun issues. If they supported ours, this would've been easy. Even in Zien's district, the hunters I talked to couldn't care less about this bill.
SomeKid
January 31, 2006, 04:40 PM
Didn't one of the two flippers agree to support this if she got her special piece of gun-control put in?
And, look at the bright side. IF the gun groups in WI get out and kick out some liberals come Nov, you may be able to pass a much better shall issue bill next year. Less bad amendments. Not that this makes the loss here any easier to swallow of course, but still.
And, look at the bright side. IF the gun groups in WI get out and kick out some liberals come Nov, you may be able to pass a much better shall issue bill next year. Less bad amendments. Not that this makes the loss here any easier to swallow of course, but still.
Trip20
January 31, 2006, 04:43 PM
I'm going to the bar.
wiski
January 31, 2006, 04:44 PM
What does the "paired" mean?
"Pairing Members of Congress who are going to be absent for an important vote will often "pair" with another member who would have voted for the opposite side, on matters where a two-thirds' majority is required, two members in the affirmative pair with one in the negative. Pairing is recorded in the Congressional ~Record but is not included in the voting results. A "live" part of a live pair occurs when a paired member is on the floor and votes "present." House rules provide guidelines for pairing. The Senate considers the practice a voluntary arrangement among Senators and the "live" pair is counted for purposes of deter mining whether a quorum is present and business may be conducted."
"Pairing Members of Congress who are going to be absent for an important vote will often "pair" with another member who would have voted for the opposite side, on matters where a two-thirds' majority is required, two members in the affirmative pair with one in the negative. Pairing is recorded in the Congressional ~Record but is not included in the voting results. A "live" part of a live pair occurs when a paired member is on the floor and votes "present." House rules provide guidelines for pairing. The Senate considers the practice a voluntary arrangement among Senators and the "live" pair is counted for purposes of deter mining whether a quorum is present and business may be conducted."
Janitor
January 31, 2006, 04:45 PM
They have GOT to override this sooner or later. All the calling and emails - sooner or later they have to stop listening to the police chiefs and administrators, and start listening to the people (and the 'beat cops').
I don't even live in Wisconsen, but I still could use a drink right now. This is such a letdown.
I don't even live in Wisconsen, but I still could use a drink right now. This is such a letdown.
usmarine0352_2005
January 31, 2006, 04:50 PM
Can this be OVERRIDDEN???
Or is his it???
Or is his it???
Nickotym
January 31, 2006, 04:50 PM
Sorry it didn't happen Wisconsin. Don't let the flippers and Doyle forget who you are and how much voting power you have between now and November. Good luck on removing your state's stumbling block.
wiski
January 31, 2006, 04:51 PM
Didn't one of the two flippers agree to support this if she got her special piece of gun-control put in?
Yes, GRONEMUS I believe, and she did vote Yes.
And, look at the bright side. IF the gun groups in WI get out and kick out some liberals come Nov, you may be able to pass a much better shall issue bill next year. Less bad amendments. Not that this makes the loss here any easier to swallow of course, but still.
There was mention by Gunderson (I think) just before the vote that the Wisc SC may overturn the cureent law on the books of no CCW, and that they (Representatives) should do the right thing and vote to over-ride the veto so that there is atleast some law, and not Vermont/Alaska carry.
Yes, GRONEMUS I believe, and she did vote Yes.
And, look at the bright side. IF the gun groups in WI get out and kick out some liberals come Nov, you may be able to pass a much better shall issue bill next year. Less bad amendments. Not that this makes the loss here any easier to swallow of course, but still.
There was mention by Gunderson (I think) just before the vote that the Wisc SC may overturn the cureent law on the books of no CCW, and that they (Representatives) should do the right thing and vote to over-ride the veto so that there is atleast some law, and not Vermont/Alaska carry.
mpthole
January 31, 2006, 04:51 PM
Time to start the open-carry walks. :mad: :fire: :cuss:
Standing Wolf
January 31, 2006, 04:52 PM
I'm sorry to hear it—but trust the good folks of Wisconsin will fight on resolutely.
That sorry excuse for a governor has got to go, along with plenty of elected misrepresentatives.
That sorry excuse for a governor has got to go, along with plenty of elected misrepresentatives.
Aquaholic
January 31, 2006, 04:53 PM
When are Steinfink and Van akkeren up for re-election? I will be writing them to let them know they have just turned a Minnesotan into a contributor and campaign volunteer for their REPUBLICAN OPPONENTS.
I can't BELIEVE how pissed I am!! :cuss: :cuss: :cuss:
I can't BELIEVE how pissed I am!! :cuss: :cuss: :cuss:
AJ Dual
January 31, 2006, 04:53 PM
There goes my pool...
Looking soley at the odds solely with my "head", I knew this was an uphill battle. Doyle and the Dem's needed to turn only one vote out of 66, we had to keep them all. Odds to the attacker in that senario. All the anecdotal evidence of nervous press releases and liberal whining kept my "heart" enthused...
VanAkkeren and Steinbrink were never serious about the PPA then. It was all a dog & pony show to get something they wanted from either the Dem leadership or the Govenor.
If the Gubanatorial race this fall goes our way, and barring massive electoral incompetence by the WI GOP at large, we stand a good shot at passing this straight through in '07, with NO CONCESSIONS. We'll only need 51% then. I can think of all sorts of provisions that will make them sorry they didn't pass it when they had the chance. Other than having to wait a year and a half, we may well get a better deal next time. No school exclusions, LIABILITY for CCW banning employers, Texas "30.06" style signage requirments for banning businesses. I don't want to sound Pollyanna here, but this could be setting us up for an even better bill.
With a little luck, next session will be the SLAM DUNK. We'll likely have one other state shall-issue, pushing Wisconsin further into the non-carry minority, and the anti's may have screwed themselves out of the best deal they were going to get.
I know we're concerned about the number of retiring legislators, but there's also a laundry list of reasons as to why the elections might give us an easier time next year. WI is a hot bed for tax reform, voter ID reform (to stem Democratic fraud), and there's the gay marriage ammendment on the ballot, sure to increase turnout.
Dissapointed as I may be, when I look at what they had to go through in Missouri, and all the back-stabbing that went on to get Shall-Issue passed there, it still makes WI look like kindergarten.
Looking soley at the odds solely with my "head", I knew this was an uphill battle. Doyle and the Dem's needed to turn only one vote out of 66, we had to keep them all. Odds to the attacker in that senario. All the anecdotal evidence of nervous press releases and liberal whining kept my "heart" enthused...
VanAkkeren and Steinbrink were never serious about the PPA then. It was all a dog & pony show to get something they wanted from either the Dem leadership or the Govenor.
If the Gubanatorial race this fall goes our way, and barring massive electoral incompetence by the WI GOP at large, we stand a good shot at passing this straight through in '07, with NO CONCESSIONS. We'll only need 51% then. I can think of all sorts of provisions that will make them sorry they didn't pass it when they had the chance. Other than having to wait a year and a half, we may well get a better deal next time. No school exclusions, LIABILITY for CCW banning employers, Texas "30.06" style signage requirments for banning businesses. I don't want to sound Pollyanna here, but this could be setting us up for an even better bill.
With a little luck, next session will be the SLAM DUNK. We'll likely have one other state shall-issue, pushing Wisconsin further into the non-carry minority, and the anti's may have screwed themselves out of the best deal they were going to get.
I know we're concerned about the number of retiring legislators, but there's also a laundry list of reasons as to why the elections might give us an easier time next year. WI is a hot bed for tax reform, voter ID reform (to stem Democratic fraud), and there's the gay marriage ammendment on the ballot, sure to increase turnout.
Dissapointed as I may be, when I look at what they had to go through in Missouri, and all the back-stabbing that went on to get Shall-Issue passed there, it still makes WI look like kindergarten.
sturmruger
January 31, 2006, 04:57 PM
I am so depressed right now.....I think I might go home and have a few stiff drinks. I really thought this would be the day that everything would work for us.
scout26
January 31, 2006, 04:57 PM
Monkeyleg, I'm sure you feel as if you just lost a child. You have the sympathy and support from those of us on the "wrong" side of the cheddar curtain.
There will be a next time, and next time you'll (we'll) win.
Let the Open Carry Walks begin !!!!!
P.S. This flatlander will be sending e-mails to the two flippers letting them know that I'll be contributing to their opponents.
There will be a next time, and next time you'll (we'll) win.
Let the Open Carry Walks begin !!!!!
P.S. This flatlander will be sending e-mails to the two flippers letting them know that I'll be contributing to their opponents.
Dolomite
January 31, 2006, 04:57 PM
Yes, GRONEMUS I believe, and she did vote Yes.
Whoa-whoa - easy now. Gronemus has always been pretty solid. Hubler - the one who got some last minute ammdements to the bill - also sided with us. A pretty gutsy move for a freshman dem.
Whoa-whoa - easy now. Gronemus has always been pretty solid. Hubler - the one who got some last minute ammdements to the bill - also sided with us. A pretty gutsy move for a freshman dem.
Dolomite
January 31, 2006, 04:59 PM
Steinfink is up for election in November.
As is Kessler, Wasserman, Sherman, Boyle, Benedict, Berceau, Black, Colon, Grigsby, - just to name a few.
As is Kessler, Wasserman, Sherman, Boyle, Benedict, Berceau, Black, Colon, Grigsby, - just to name a few.
waterhouse
January 31, 2006, 05:04 PM
sorry guys, I know some of you worked pretty hard for this. keep up the good work, this will be righted eventually.
.45Guy
January 31, 2006, 05:06 PM
And to think, I moved here from Ohio!:banghead: I really wish there were a D'oh smiley to adequately express my feelings now.
wiski
January 31, 2006, 05:12 PM
Whoa-whoa - easy now. Gronemus has always been pretty solid. Hubler - the one who got some last minute ammdements to the bill - also sided with us. A pretty gutsy move for a freshman dem.
Thanks for the clarification, couldn't quite remember which one... I was glad to see both of these (female) Democrat Representatives vote in favor of the over-ride.
Fingers crossed for 06 elections.
Thanks for the clarification, couldn't quite remember which one... I was glad to see both of these (female) Democrat Representatives vote in favor of the over-ride.
Fingers crossed for 06 elections.
cosine
January 31, 2006, 05:16 PM
Liberalism -- excuse me, Leftism. It's gotta be a disease. (Mental!) :banghead:
However, I'll be sure to remember the names of those few Democrats who voted for the bill.
However, I'll be sure to remember the names of those few Democrats who voted for the bill.
AJ Dual
January 31, 2006, 05:25 PM
Liberalism. It's gotta be a disease. (Mental!) :banghead:
However, I'll be sure to remember the names of those few Democrats who voted for the bill.
Some of them have been with us through several votes, however, my cynical side is showing through here. I can't help but wonder if four Democratic votes to override were there only because they knew it was "safe" for them to do so.
That way, they can take pro-gun credit in thier home district, but still be safe from the ire of the anti's, and perhaps, in their own minds if they were never really for it.
The next CCW contest will be the fall '06 elections. We need to:
- Get a Republican Govenor. (Both GOP candidates have stated they'll sign the PPA)
- Maintain at least a 51% pro-CCW balance in both houses of the Legislature. (We have lots of GOP retirments in the senate coming up, worrying some.)
Working against us is:
- It's an election, nothing is certain.
- Democratic vote fraud in Milwaukee and Madison. (remember that voter ID bill the GOP's been trying to pass?)
Working for us is:
- Doyle is weak, unliked, and scandal-ridden. It may be getting worse for him and the DNC in general.
- Suburban and rual voters may be upset over the failure to pass voter ID in WI.
- Suburban and rural voters are upset over the failure to pass any meaningful budget/tax reform.
- The GOP was successful in getting a gay marriage ammendment put to referendum on the fall '06 ballot. They believe this will help voter turnout.
- School Choice vouchers is a hot-button issue with inner city minorities. The largely Dem leaning teachers union opposes this with all thier might. It's forming as a wedge issue for the Democrats. They're being forced to choose between the powerful teachers union and the minority base. It's not nearly enough to get our first inner-city Republican elected, but it is creating dissatisfaction and weakening the liberal base somewhat.
It's far from a sure thing, but I give the fall elections a better shot at getting CCW in WI than these razor-thin override contests the past few years.
However, I'll be sure to remember the names of those few Democrats who voted for the bill.
Some of them have been with us through several votes, however, my cynical side is showing through here. I can't help but wonder if four Democratic votes to override were there only because they knew it was "safe" for them to do so.
That way, they can take pro-gun credit in thier home district, but still be safe from the ire of the anti's, and perhaps, in their own minds if they were never really for it.
The next CCW contest will be the fall '06 elections. We need to:
- Get a Republican Govenor. (Both GOP candidates have stated they'll sign the PPA)
- Maintain at least a 51% pro-CCW balance in both houses of the Legislature. (We have lots of GOP retirments in the senate coming up, worrying some.)
Working against us is:
- It's an election, nothing is certain.
- Democratic vote fraud in Milwaukee and Madison. (remember that voter ID bill the GOP's been trying to pass?)
Working for us is:
- Doyle is weak, unliked, and scandal-ridden. It may be getting worse for him and the DNC in general.
- Suburban and rual voters may be upset over the failure to pass voter ID in WI.
- Suburban and rural voters are upset over the failure to pass any meaningful budget/tax reform.
- The GOP was successful in getting a gay marriage ammendment put to referendum on the fall '06 ballot. They believe this will help voter turnout.
- School Choice vouchers is a hot-button issue with inner city minorities. The largely Dem leaning teachers union opposes this with all thier might. It's forming as a wedge issue for the Democrats. They're being forced to choose between the powerful teachers union and the minority base. It's not nearly enough to get our first inner-city Republican elected, but it is creating dissatisfaction and weakening the liberal base somewhat.
It's far from a sure thing, but I give the fall elections a better shot at getting CCW in WI than these razor-thin override contests the past few years.
Gray Peterson
January 31, 2006, 05:32 PM
Open Carry Walks.
tater_salad
January 31, 2006, 05:33 PM
'liberalism is a mental disorder' - Michael Savage, that guy's pretty entertaining to listen to at 2:30 A.M. (third shift)
TexasRifleman
January 31, 2006, 06:14 PM
Question from an out of stater...
Who is WGO and why are they claiming this as a "pro gun victory"????
I'm confused.
Also unhappy, I travel to WI for business, I was looking forward to reciprocity.
Keep up the fight!!
Who is WGO and why are they claiming this as a "pro gun victory"????
I'm confused.
Also unhappy, I travel to WI for business, I was looking forward to reciprocity.
Keep up the fight!!
ElTacoGrande
January 31, 2006, 06:15 PM
I am sorry to see what happened in WI. I am outraged by the post from the director of WGO gloating over this. Life is about compromise. Politics is the art of compromise. My view of the world is that I should be able to buy a Glock 18 without undue hassle and I should be able to carry it whereever I want to, including on commercial airplanes. Guess what I live in CA and that is not going to happen in a millions years here, and so I'm willing to compromise to get victories that get me to some place which is better than where I am now.
Cheeseheads, do not despair. It sounds like Doyle is the problem and he will be GONE next year, and this thing will pass. I think this thing is inevitable at this point. Keep on fighting. Freedom isn't free. It takes a lot of work. Be happy, you are a lot closer to it than we are here in CA.
Cheeseheads, do not despair. It sounds like Doyle is the problem and he will be GONE next year, and this thing will pass. I think this thing is inevitable at this point. Keep on fighting. Freedom isn't free. It takes a lot of work. Be happy, you are a lot closer to it than we are here in CA.
BigRedBowtie
January 31, 2006, 06:17 PM
There goes my pool...
(snip)...If the Gubanatorial race this fall goes our way, and barring massive electoral incompetence by the WI GOP at large, we stand a good shot at passing this straight through in '07, with NO CONCESSIONS. We'll only need 51% then. I can think of all sorts of provisions that will make them sorry they didn't pass it when they had the chance. Other than having to wait a year and a half, we may well get a better deal next time. No school exclusions, LIABILITY for CCW banning employers, Texas "30.06" style signage requirments for banning businesses. I don't want to sound Pollyanna here, but this could be setting us up for an even better bill.
...(snip)
AJ- I'm haing a little trouble deciphering what you mean here. You certainly DON'T want texas-style posting laws. The model of MN (while certainly flawed) works well for those of us who choose to "not notice" postings. In TX, my understanding is that if you carry past a 30.06 and get caught... yer butt's in a SERIOUS wringer. In MN, they have to notice your "condition", ask you to leave, you refuse, they call the cops, you STILL refuse to leave, then they write you a trespassing ticket- $10 or something, and you keep your gun and your carry permit. We still have a ways to go as far as getting who can/can't post ironed out and some force of law to nullify (if not remove) illegal postings, but the posting laws over here are pretty soft, in general... and that's a Good Thing!
(snip)...If the Gubanatorial race this fall goes our way, and barring massive electoral incompetence by the WI GOP at large, we stand a good shot at passing this straight through in '07, with NO CONCESSIONS. We'll only need 51% then. I can think of all sorts of provisions that will make them sorry they didn't pass it when they had the chance. Other than having to wait a year and a half, we may well get a better deal next time. No school exclusions, LIABILITY for CCW banning employers, Texas "30.06" style signage requirments for banning businesses. I don't want to sound Pollyanna here, but this could be setting us up for an even better bill.
...(snip)
AJ- I'm haing a little trouble deciphering what you mean here. You certainly DON'T want texas-style posting laws. The model of MN (while certainly flawed) works well for those of us who choose to "not notice" postings. In TX, my understanding is that if you carry past a 30.06 and get caught... yer butt's in a SERIOUS wringer. In MN, they have to notice your "condition", ask you to leave, you refuse, they call the cops, you STILL refuse to leave, then they write you a trespassing ticket- $10 or something, and you keep your gun and your carry permit. We still have a ways to go as far as getting who can/can't post ironed out and some force of law to nullify (if not remove) illegal postings, but the posting laws over here are pretty soft, in general... and that's a Good Thing!
AJ Dual
January 31, 2006, 06:23 PM
You are correct.
I just meant the size of the sign. The misdemeanor treaspass if you refuse to leave would remain the same. :cool:
The 11"x11" sign, or whatever it was in the latest WI bill was a great step though. Last time in '04, it got traded away to 8 1/2" x 11". That was put in there so Brady and VPC could immediately fax an anti-CCW sign to every business in the state should it have passed.
I just meant the size of the sign. The misdemeanor treaspass if you refuse to leave would remain the same. :cool:
The 11"x11" sign, or whatever it was in the latest WI bill was a great step though. Last time in '04, it got traded away to 8 1/2" x 11". That was put in there so Brady and VPC could immediately fax an anti-CCW sign to every business in the state should it have passed.
GAC
January 31, 2006, 06:37 PM
I was very optimistic the override would succeed.
I'm bummed out and I probably would likely have very rarely carry anyway.
I'm bummed out and I probably would likely have very rarely carry anyway.
TrapperReady
January 31, 2006, 06:41 PM
Who is WGO and why are they claiming this as a "pro gun victory"????
Do a search for "WGO" or "Corey Graff" in L&P. It's too frustrating to go through again.
Do a search for "WGO" or "Corey Graff" in L&P. It's too frustrating to go through again.
TexasRifleman
January 31, 2006, 06:46 PM
Do a search for "WGO" or "Corey Graff" in L&P. It's too frustrating to go through again.
Oh good Lord. Sorry I asked.......I see now. What a train wreck.
Oh good Lord. Sorry I asked.......I see now. What a train wreck.
TrapperReady
January 31, 2006, 06:49 PM
Hey TexasSIGman - What's your take on San Antonio or Austin? While I love Wisconsin, a change of scenery might not be bad.
AJ Dual
January 31, 2006, 07:02 PM
Oh good Lord. Sorry I asked.......I see now. What a train wreck.
Good news is that other than the EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR'S self-important statments, the WGO's spoiler efforts did not have a significant impact.
Everything I see from "them" makes me think more and more that the WGO is just a one man show. And that the EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR is running a mail-only "gun rights" group just big enough, and just legal enough, to pay himself a salary from any misguided members he's actualy able to get.
In fact, listening to Mark Belling's radio show (Biggest conservative radio guy in WI, fills in for Rush on occasion), a caller from Steinbrink's district mentioned the WGO's mailings, and how he threw it in the trash. LOL! Both the host and caller openly speculated on-air that WGO might actualy be a "shill organization".
Good news is that other than the EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR'S self-important statments, the WGO's spoiler efforts did not have a significant impact.
Everything I see from "them" makes me think more and more that the WGO is just a one man show. And that the EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR is running a mail-only "gun rights" group just big enough, and just legal enough, to pay himself a salary from any misguided members he's actualy able to get.
In fact, listening to Mark Belling's radio show (Biggest conservative radio guy in WI, fills in for Rush on occasion), a caller from Steinbrink's district mentioned the WGO's mailings, and how he threw it in the trash. LOL! Both the host and caller openly speculated on-air that WGO might actualy be a "shill organization".
Strings
January 31, 2006, 07:09 PM
well, that was fun. Now, anyone want to start a betting pool on wether or not we'll be able to get volunteers to work a gunshow again?
TexasRifleman
January 31, 2006, 07:50 PM
Hey TexasSIGman - What's your take on San Antonio or Austin? While I love Wisconsin, a change of scenery might not be bad.
Austin and Dallas are not in Texas any more :evil:
San Antonio is very nice.
Austin and Dallas are not in Texas any more :evil:
San Antonio is very nice.
Monkeyleg
January 31, 2006, 07:54 PM
Let's set the record straight on Barbara Gronemus. She's always been 100% pro-gun, and she's always been for concealed carry. So has Marlin Schneider.
Amy Sue Vruwink is only in her second term, and took a lot of heat last session when she voted for the override. I sometimes questioned her loyalty, but behind the scenes she gave full committment to the NRA.
We need two things to happen this November: Doyle to be defeated, and the Republicans to maintain majorities in both chambers. Not saying that all Republicans are solid, but liberal Democrats running the senate or assembly will kill the bill in committee.
Unfortunately, that brings us to a dirty word: money.
We need contributions to pro-gun candidates. Our political action committee needs to raise over $42,000 just to contribute to the campaign of Green or Walker (whichever one wins the gubernatorial primary).
Trying to get a Republican elected in Sheboygan or southeast Kenosha county is nearly impossible. I think that was the problem with Sherman. Had any of us been thinking right, we would have raised a ton of money for Barb Linton to run against Sherman in the Democrat primary. It's a Democrat district, and Sherman rode John Kerry's coattails in 2004.
We just got sucker-punched. So, take a week or two to get your breath back, and then get back into the fight.
Our political action committee needs to raise at least $60,000. I'm working on organizing a fund-raising shoot with full-auto's. $40 to shoot an MP5 or Thompson or any number of other rock n' roll guns.
If anyone else would like to organize fund-raising shoots, just let me know.
Amy Sue Vruwink is only in her second term, and took a lot of heat last session when she voted for the override. I sometimes questioned her loyalty, but behind the scenes she gave full committment to the NRA.
We need two things to happen this November: Doyle to be defeated, and the Republicans to maintain majorities in both chambers. Not saying that all Republicans are solid, but liberal Democrats running the senate or assembly will kill the bill in committee.
Unfortunately, that brings us to a dirty word: money.
We need contributions to pro-gun candidates. Our political action committee needs to raise over $42,000 just to contribute to the campaign of Green or Walker (whichever one wins the gubernatorial primary).
Trying to get a Republican elected in Sheboygan or southeast Kenosha county is nearly impossible. I think that was the problem with Sherman. Had any of us been thinking right, we would have raised a ton of money for Barb Linton to run against Sherman in the Democrat primary. It's a Democrat district, and Sherman rode John Kerry's coattails in 2004.
We just got sucker-punched. So, take a week or two to get your breath back, and then get back into the fight.
Our political action committee needs to raise at least $60,000. I'm working on organizing a fund-raising shoot with full-auto's. $40 to shoot an MP5 or Thompson or any number of other rock n' roll guns.
If anyone else would like to organize fund-raising shoots, just let me know.
SomeKid
January 31, 2006, 08:42 PM
Our political action committee needs to raise at least $60,000. I'm working on organizing a fund-raising shoot with full-auto's. $40 to shoot an MP5 or Thompson or any number of other rock n' roll guns.
If I wasn't in TN, I would pay the 40 adn bring my own ammo to shoot a FA Tommy.
If I wasn't in TN, I would pay the 40 adn bring my own ammo to shoot a FA Tommy.
pax
January 31, 2006, 08:53 PM
Dick ~
I dunno if I've ever told you this before, but I really admire you and the work you are doing for WI gun owners. So sorry about the latest setback (sooooo close!) -- but it is downright inspiring to watch you pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and get right back into the fray.
May your tribe increase!
pax
I dunno if I've ever told you this before, but I really admire you and the work you are doing for WI gun owners. So sorry about the latest setback (sooooo close!) -- but it is downright inspiring to watch you pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and get right back into the fray.
May your tribe increase!
pax
Strings
January 31, 2006, 08:59 PM
pax: I don't know if you should be inspired by Dick's example or not. Can't say for sure if it's persistance against all odds, or gross stupidity...
'Course, we're two of a kind there. When 's the strategy session for the next round, Dick? I'm there. Maybe take a page from that kid in Iowa, and start hitting the pavement?
'Course, we're two of a kind there. When 's the strategy session for the next round, Dick? I'm there. Maybe take a page from that kid in Iowa, and start hitting the pavement?
wiski
January 31, 2006, 09:24 PM
Let's set the record straight on Barbara Gronemus. She's always been 100% pro-gun, and she's always been for concealed carry. So has Marlin Schneider.
We just got sucker-punched. So, take a week or two to get your breath back, and then get back into the fight.
My mistake on saying it was Representative Gronemus that pledged her vote if the ammendment passed, I should have looked it up before posting... then I would have known it was Representative Hubler.
Dick, I applaud all that you have done. You can count on me for working a show or two in my area again in 2007 and $$ too.
We just got sucker-punched. So, take a week or two to get your breath back, and then get back into the fight.
My mistake on saying it was Representative Gronemus that pledged her vote if the ammendment passed, I should have looked it up before posting... then I would have known it was Representative Hubler.
Dick, I applaud all that you have done. You can count on me for working a show or two in my area again in 2007 and $$ too.
MGLouie
January 31, 2006, 10:11 PM
All the way. We need to get the sportsmans clubs more involved somehow.
bg
January 31, 2006, 10:16 PM
WI sure am sorry to see that your CCW failed this time.
However I'm hopeful the law-abiding pro gun citizenry
will get it through in 07. You were facing some big time
anti-gun media blitz with Gun News Daily reporting
different stories, yet your CCW only failed by what
2 votes ?
I'm sure you'll let those know you voted for AND
against SB403, how you feel in Nov. Here is what some
of your media reported or wrote about, both +/-.
http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060129/GPG0101/601290678/1207/GPGnews
http://www.wisdems.org/ht/display/ReleaseDetails/i/732322
http://www.madison.com/tct/news/index.php?ntid=70765&ntpid=3
You can bet the Brady Bunch will be making a stink
about this CCW vote-down in WI. I was so hoping it would
pass. It might of given us hope here in Corruptfornia. Now it's..:) :what: :banghead: :cuss: :(
Here is the NRA's pc on the vote. Very small and to the point.
http://www.nraila.org/CurrentLegislation/Read.aspx?ID=1892
However I'm hopeful the law-abiding pro gun citizenry
will get it through in 07. You were facing some big time
anti-gun media blitz with Gun News Daily reporting
different stories, yet your CCW only failed by what
2 votes ?
I'm sure you'll let those know you voted for AND
against SB403, how you feel in Nov. Here is what some
of your media reported or wrote about, both +/-.
http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060129/GPG0101/601290678/1207/GPGnews
http://www.wisdems.org/ht/display/ReleaseDetails/i/732322
http://www.madison.com/tct/news/index.php?ntid=70765&ntpid=3
You can bet the Brady Bunch will be making a stink
about this CCW vote-down in WI. I was so hoping it would
pass. It might of given us hope here in Corruptfornia. Now it's..:) :what: :banghead: :cuss: :(
Here is the NRA's pc on the vote. Very small and to the point.
http://www.nraila.org/CurrentLegislation/Read.aspx?ID=1892
Strings
January 31, 2006, 10:16 PM
>We need to get the sportsmans clubs more involved somehow<
About the only way you're gonna pull THAT off is to tie CCW to hunting somehow. Something that hunters REALLY want needs to be connected to it, but *I* can't think of anything to use...
I'll say this: next time some hunters' group asks me for money/time for a cause, I'm gonna be VERY hard pressed not to tell 'em where to stick themselves...
About the only way you're gonna pull THAT off is to tie CCW to hunting somehow. Something that hunters REALLY want needs to be connected to it, but *I* can't think of anything to use...
I'll say this: next time some hunters' group asks me for money/time for a cause, I'm gonna be VERY hard pressed not to tell 'em where to stick themselves...
Trip20
January 31, 2006, 11:32 PM
I dunno if I've ever told you this before, but I really admire you and the work you are doing for WI gun owners. So sorry about the latest setback (sooooo close!) -- but it is downright inspiring to watch you pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and get right back into the fray.
I just got done taking advantage of an unmitigated "happy hour," and a well-earned call to the woman I love for a ride home.
All evening I've been drowning my grief in many ounces of Coors Light. While this is a very mediocre anesthetic, I couldn't shake the thought of hard this must be for Dick Baker.
I am also just as inspired - if not more - than pax, and her post summarizes my feelings.
Dick, you sir, have my unqualified guarantee that I will give my every able minute and dollar to our cause.
Disappointed in WI,
Trip - the hangover will suck - 20.
I just got done taking advantage of an unmitigated "happy hour," and a well-earned call to the woman I love for a ride home.
All evening I've been drowning my grief in many ounces of Coors Light. While this is a very mediocre anesthetic, I couldn't shake the thought of hard this must be for Dick Baker.
I am also just as inspired - if not more - than pax, and her post summarizes my feelings.
Dick, you sir, have my unqualified guarantee that I will give my every able minute and dollar to our cause.
Disappointed in WI,
Trip - the hangover will suck - 20.
FireBreather01
February 1, 2006, 12:18 AM
I'm not comfortable accepting thanks because there are many other people who've worked very hard to get us to this point. I didn't want my name to get out there (for business reasons), but it did.
If there was one good thing that came from today's vote, it's that there are some new people who are really inspired, and who do well before the media.
And, of course, there's the anger that we have to keep alive.
Jim Doyle has shown that WI government is for sale. If those are the terms of battle, then I'm ready to play on those terms. Let's raise as much money as possible.
Doyle also demonstrated that threats work.
Governor Doyle, you have no idea what kind of firestorm you have just invited. Within the ranks of the WCCA are licensed private investigators, county prosecutors, US attorneys, FBI agents, correctional officers, sheriffs deputies, police chiefs, former CIA operatives, and other people who know how to gather intel on opponents.
Let's give you an example, Guv: you've got a Democrat down in Racine who bows and scrapes before you, but carries a .357.
It's going to be pretty tough for you to defend him when he gets busted for CCW.
Go Dick, go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If there was one good thing that came from today's vote, it's that there are some new people who are really inspired, and who do well before the media.
And, of course, there's the anger that we have to keep alive.
Jim Doyle has shown that WI government is for sale. If those are the terms of battle, then I'm ready to play on those terms. Let's raise as much money as possible.
Doyle also demonstrated that threats work.
Governor Doyle, you have no idea what kind of firestorm you have just invited. Within the ranks of the WCCA are licensed private investigators, county prosecutors, US attorneys, FBI agents, correctional officers, sheriffs deputies, police chiefs, former CIA operatives, and other people who know how to gather intel on opponents.
Let's give you an example, Guv: you've got a Democrat down in Racine who bows and scrapes before you, but carries a .357.
It's going to be pretty tough for you to defend him when he gets busted for CCW.
Go Dick, go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Monkeyleg
February 1, 2006, 12:27 AM
I'm not comfortable accepting thanks because there are many other people who've worked very hard to get us to this point. I didn't want my name to get out there (for business reasons), but it did.
If there was one good thing that came from today's vote, it's that there are some new people who are really inspired, and who do well before the media.
And, of course, there's the anger that we have to keep alive.
Jim Doyle has shown that WI government is for sale. If those are the terms of battle, then I'm ready to play on those terms. Let's raise as much money as possible.
Doyle also demonstrated that threats work.
Governor Doyle, you have no idea what kind of firestorm you have just unleashed. Within the ranks of the WCCA are licensed private investigators, county prosecutors, US attorneys, FBI agents, correctional officers, sheriffs deputies, police chiefs, former CIA operatives, and other people who know how to gather intel on opponents.
Let's give you an example, Guv: you've got a Democrat representative down in Racine who bows and scrapes before you, but carries a .357 pretty much 24/7.
It's going to be pretty tough for you to defend him when he gets busted for CCW. And I'm going to make damn sure he does, and that it gets as much press as possible.
Here's another, governor: one of your most prized legislators likes to get drunk and play with hookers after late-night legislative sessions. Think his wife might want to know about this?
If you want to play in the mud, governor, you sure have created one big mudpuddle to play in.
And I haven't even started cheating yet.
You POS.
If there was one good thing that came from today's vote, it's that there are some new people who are really inspired, and who do well before the media.
And, of course, there's the anger that we have to keep alive.
Jim Doyle has shown that WI government is for sale. If those are the terms of battle, then I'm ready to play on those terms. Let's raise as much money as possible.
Doyle also demonstrated that threats work.
Governor Doyle, you have no idea what kind of firestorm you have just unleashed. Within the ranks of the WCCA are licensed private investigators, county prosecutors, US attorneys, FBI agents, correctional officers, sheriffs deputies, police chiefs, former CIA operatives, and other people who know how to gather intel on opponents.
Let's give you an example, Guv: you've got a Democrat representative down in Racine who bows and scrapes before you, but carries a .357 pretty much 24/7.
It's going to be pretty tough for you to defend him when he gets busted for CCW. And I'm going to make damn sure he does, and that it gets as much press as possible.
Here's another, governor: one of your most prized legislators likes to get drunk and play with hookers after late-night legislative sessions. Think his wife might want to know about this?
If you want to play in the mud, governor, you sure have created one big mudpuddle to play in.
And I haven't even started cheating yet.
You POS.
sturmruger
February 1, 2006, 12:37 AM
Wow Dick this must have been a lot dirtier then we are hearing about in the regular news. The libs don't mind playing dirty politics and neither do I. Lets do it.
Strings
February 1, 2006, 12:37 AM
Dick... it's traditional to throw the gauntlet at the FEET of your opponent. Not INTO THEIR TEETH... ;)
FireBreather01
February 1, 2006, 12:40 AM
Dick - please post a link where I/we can send donations. Also, what are the rules on PAC donations? If I donate to a PAC, can I also donate to individual candidates? What are the limits?
You'll have $200 from me by the end of the week - I just can't take this anymore. I spent hundreds of my own donating to Sherman's last opponent - fat lot of good that did me. Now I want it going where we can have some clout and it gets recognition from Van Asseren and Steindink.
You'll have $200 from me by the end of the week - I just can't take this anymore. I spent hundreds of my own donating to Sherman's last opponent - fat lot of good that did me. Now I want it going where we can have some clout and it gets recognition from Van Asseren and Steindink.
Monkeyleg
February 1, 2006, 12:53 AM
FireBreather01, maximum donation to a PAC in a biennium (example, 2005 through 2006) is $1000.
Maximum total donation to any PAC, campaign committe, or party is $10,000.
If you're able to contribute anywhere near those numbers, please contact me before you do. Chuck Chvala may get off with nine months of home confinement (20 counts of felonies, including extorting $1.14 million), but I won't.
Democrats take care of their own.
Maximum total donation to any PAC, campaign committe, or party is $10,000.
If you're able to contribute anywhere near those numbers, please contact me before you do. Chuck Chvala may get off with nine months of home confinement (20 counts of felonies, including extorting $1.14 million), but I won't.
Democrats take care of their own.
Old Fuff
February 1, 2006, 12:58 AM
Monkeyleg:
Unfortunately politics is a hard and dirty business, but somebody has too do it... :(
Personal experience tells me that the radical/left Democrats killed your bill just to show you that they could do it. Issues aside, they were determined to show you who had the power, and who was running things.
I would again try to direct your attention to Missouri, and events that occurred there in 2004. Again the Republicans controlled both houses of the legislature, but not the Governor’s office. He, like your governor, was a left-leaning Democrat who not only vetoed CCW bills, but made a production and media event of it too.
But when the smoke cleared he lost his own party’s primary, and they in turn lost the election. The Republicans ended up controlling the legislature with a greater majority then before, and the new governor was also a Republican. Missouri now has a CCW statute, and the Democrats, who so lusted for power, are on the outside looking in. You can take heart in this…
So widen your focus. Go after the Democrat’s corruption. Work to defeat the ones who are in any way vulnerable, and use any issue that might cause they’re defeat. Join with others pursuing a different issue, but against the same individuals. Whenever possible provide pro-gun candidates with mailing lists and e-mail addresses. Even those from out-of-state may bring some financial contributions.
And in private conversations with folks on the other side, tell them you’re following the “Missouri Model.” It may take awhile, but they will get the point… :evil: :cool:
Unfortunately politics is a hard and dirty business, but somebody has too do it... :(
Personal experience tells me that the radical/left Democrats killed your bill just to show you that they could do it. Issues aside, they were determined to show you who had the power, and who was running things.
I would again try to direct your attention to Missouri, and events that occurred there in 2004. Again the Republicans controlled both houses of the legislature, but not the Governor’s office. He, like your governor, was a left-leaning Democrat who not only vetoed CCW bills, but made a production and media event of it too.
But when the smoke cleared he lost his own party’s primary, and they in turn lost the election. The Republicans ended up controlling the legislature with a greater majority then before, and the new governor was also a Republican. Missouri now has a CCW statute, and the Democrats, who so lusted for power, are on the outside looking in. You can take heart in this…
So widen your focus. Go after the Democrat’s corruption. Work to defeat the ones who are in any way vulnerable, and use any issue that might cause they’re defeat. Join with others pursuing a different issue, but against the same individuals. Whenever possible provide pro-gun candidates with mailing lists and e-mail addresses. Even those from out-of-state may bring some financial contributions.
And in private conversations with folks on the other side, tell them you’re following the “Missouri Model.” It may take awhile, but they will get the point… :evil: :cool:
Monkeyleg
February 1, 2006, 02:19 AM
Old Fuff, everything you're mentioning is either on the table, or has been for some time.
TGT, here's the reality, and why the NRA, WI-Pro Gun Movement, WRPA, Sporting Heritage accepted Mary Hubler's gawdawful amendment. (I was called as well at 2 am for the WCCA's blessing, but how many WCCA volunteers would want to debate the issue at that time? Sorry, but I made a sole decision).
Hubler's amendment was made to be a deal-killer. The Democrats were betting that the NRA and other groups would reject it.
After several phone calls, everyone still awake said "call their bluff."
And that's what happened.
And here's the real reason why: there's still a very good chance that Doyle can be re-elected. If he is, his power over the Democrats in the legislature will only be more powerful. We won't be able to override him.
Another, and more scary possibility: there will be more than 20 Republican legislators retiring from office this year. If the Democrats gain a net of just three seats in the Senate, our bill will never even see a committee vote.
Doesn't matter if we get a Republican governor. If the Dem's control the senate, we die.
I came home to find over a hundred emails from people who either wanted to help, or just wanted to be kept abreast of what was going on.
Where were these people a few months ago? Where were they today?
And, for those who want to just get updates, do they think that a few volunteers are just going to Miracle their a***s over Doyle? (To borrow a phrase from "Full Metal Jacket").
The next nine months are going to test the resolve of those who say they want shall-issue for Wisconsin.
The ones who actually get out and conduct fund-raisers and rallies, well, we'll know that they're the real thing.
The ones who just thump their chests on internet forums...dime a dozen.
We now have some new volunteers who own some really exotic weaponry, and they're willing to let others play with those toys...in exchange for contributions to our PAC.
Ever get to shoot a belt-fed? An MP5? A German SG38? One volunteer has some even more exotic and rare full-auto's.
Well, that's what I'm talking about. $40 per shooter, and the shooter buys his own ammo. You don't think some folks wouldn't wet their pants for the chance?
Folks, we need to raise tens of thousands of dollars. If you've got a better idea, let me know.
TGT, here's the reality, and why the NRA, WI-Pro Gun Movement, WRPA, Sporting Heritage accepted Mary Hubler's gawdawful amendment. (I was called as well at 2 am for the WCCA's blessing, but how many WCCA volunteers would want to debate the issue at that time? Sorry, but I made a sole decision).
Hubler's amendment was made to be a deal-killer. The Democrats were betting that the NRA and other groups would reject it.
After several phone calls, everyone still awake said "call their bluff."
And that's what happened.
And here's the real reason why: there's still a very good chance that Doyle can be re-elected. If he is, his power over the Democrats in the legislature will only be more powerful. We won't be able to override him.
Another, and more scary possibility: there will be more than 20 Republican legislators retiring from office this year. If the Democrats gain a net of just three seats in the Senate, our bill will never even see a committee vote.
Doesn't matter if we get a Republican governor. If the Dem's control the senate, we die.
I came home to find over a hundred emails from people who either wanted to help, or just wanted to be kept abreast of what was going on.
Where were these people a few months ago? Where were they today?
And, for those who want to just get updates, do they think that a few volunteers are just going to Miracle their a***s over Doyle? (To borrow a phrase from "Full Metal Jacket").
The next nine months are going to test the resolve of those who say they want shall-issue for Wisconsin.
The ones who actually get out and conduct fund-raisers and rallies, well, we'll know that they're the real thing.
The ones who just thump their chests on internet forums...dime a dozen.
We now have some new volunteers who own some really exotic weaponry, and they're willing to let others play with those toys...in exchange for contributions to our PAC.
Ever get to shoot a belt-fed? An MP5? A German SG38? One volunteer has some even more exotic and rare full-auto's.
Well, that's what I'm talking about. $40 per shooter, and the shooter buys his own ammo. You don't think some folks wouldn't wet their pants for the chance?
Folks, we need to raise tens of thousands of dollars. If you've got a better idea, let me know.
cosine
February 1, 2006, 03:09 AM
The ones who actually get out and conduct fund-raisers and rallies, well, we'll know that they're the real thing.
The ones who just thump their chests on internet forums...dime a dozen.
Monkeyleg, I really wish I could help. But I can't. As a student preparing for college, I have absolutely no extra time. Maybe in a year or two I'll able to really contribute to getting CCW in Wisconsin.
As for right now, I'll have to leave my remarks about WI CCW on internet forums. :(
The ones who just thump their chests on internet forums...dime a dozen.
Monkeyleg, I really wish I could help. But I can't. As a student preparing for college, I have absolutely no extra time. Maybe in a year or two I'll able to really contribute to getting CCW in Wisconsin.
As for right now, I'll have to leave my remarks about WI CCW on internet forums. :(
Gray Peterson
February 1, 2006, 03:47 AM
Monkeyleg, I'll say it one more time:
Open Carry walks, and I wouldn't telegraph your intentions as far as dirty tactics go.
Open Carry walks, and I wouldn't telegraph your intentions as far as dirty tactics go.
MGLouie
February 1, 2006, 08:56 AM
Monkeyleg, I really wish I could help. But I can't. As a student preparing for college, I have absolutely no extra time. Maybe in a year or two I'll able to really contribute to getting CCW in Wisconsin.
As for right now, I'll have to leave my remarks about WI CCW on internet forums. :(
Talk to everyone you can about CCW. Most people I know shout off on the forums but stand tight lipped in public. Remember to be polite, take the high road always:D
Monkeyleg, this is my writtem approval to contact me if you need help in the Green Bay area and to give my information to whom ever you think needs help. We made a difference at the Antigo gun show, just need to get peolpe more involved.
As for right now, I'll have to leave my remarks about WI CCW on internet forums. :(
Talk to everyone you can about CCW. Most people I know shout off on the forums but stand tight lipped in public. Remember to be polite, take the high road always:D
Monkeyleg, this is my writtem approval to contact me if you need help in the Green Bay area and to give my information to whom ever you think needs help. We made a difference at the Antigo gun show, just need to get peolpe more involved.
Technosavant
February 1, 2006, 10:35 AM
And in private conversations with folks on the other side, tell them you’re following the “Missouri Model.” It may take awhile, but they will get the point… :evil: :cool:
There you go.
We in MO finally got a great CCW bill- t'were all states to copy it, we would all be happy. We are also gearing up for more pro-gun bills this session; if they can get voted on in the legislature, our gov will sign them (working on eliminating the stupid permit to buy handguns and creating Florida style protection from liability and prosecution). It was pretty bleak here for a while, but we're on a roll at the moment.
There you go.
We in MO finally got a great CCW bill- t'were all states to copy it, we would all be happy. We are also gearing up for more pro-gun bills this session; if they can get voted on in the legislature, our gov will sign them (working on eliminating the stupid permit to buy handguns and creating Florida style protection from liability and prosecution). It was pretty bleak here for a while, but we're on a roll at the moment.
cosine
February 1, 2006, 11:05 AM
Talk to everyone you can about CCW.
That I can do!
That I can do!
AJ Dual
February 1, 2006, 01:49 PM
During their long drawn-out battle, didn't somebody put up a "Death Clock" with lighted numbers on a billboard that was extremely embarassing to Holden, the anti-CCW govenor of MO? I think they put it up right on an Interstate where lots of out-state travelers would see it as they entered either St Louis, or Jefferson City
I'm not even sure it explicitly had anything about CCW on it. It may have just said something about needless deaths, causing people to question what the sign was about, and look it up for themselves, which could be great viral marketing.
I'm trying to Google it, but I'm not getting real far.
I don't know exactly what the criteria for a victim to be counted was, but presumably any victim who could have defended themselves had they a CCW, or been protected by someone nearby who would have qualified for a CCW. I'm not sure if they narrowed the field by counting every victim who could have qualified to carry, or only known pro-gun people who had expressed interest in a permit, CCRKBA, or NRA membership etc.
That would grab some attention. And unlike a carry walk (not a bad idea possibly), it would be there 24/7 for as long as we could pay for it.
The beauty of something so provocative, is that if the anti's ignore it, our message goes out uncontested. If they blast it, it gives us free press, and an opportunity to counter with our own information. Win-Win in my eyes.
I'm not even sure it explicitly had anything about CCW on it. It may have just said something about needless deaths, causing people to question what the sign was about, and look it up for themselves, which could be great viral marketing.
I'm trying to Google it, but I'm not getting real far.
I don't know exactly what the criteria for a victim to be counted was, but presumably any victim who could have defended themselves had they a CCW, or been protected by someone nearby who would have qualified for a CCW. I'm not sure if they narrowed the field by counting every victim who could have qualified to carry, or only known pro-gun people who had expressed interest in a permit, CCRKBA, or NRA membership etc.
That would grab some attention. And unlike a carry walk (not a bad idea possibly), it would be there 24/7 for as long as we could pay for it.
The beauty of something so provocative, is that if the anti's ignore it, our message goes out uncontested. If they blast it, it gives us free press, and an opportunity to counter with our own information. Win-Win in my eyes.
pax
February 1, 2006, 01:58 PM
Cosine ~
So? You don't have any money, big deal.
They still need warm bodies to man the telephones, pass around petitions, and do the ugly grunt legwork behind the scenes. They need folks to show up for rallies. It takes neither money nor a lot of time to do cold-calls for a candidate. Of course, phone work can be an embarrassing job that takes some cojones to keep doing.
But even a broke college student can do more than just internet chest-thumping.
pax
So? You don't have any money, big deal.
They still need warm bodies to man the telephones, pass around petitions, and do the ugly grunt legwork behind the scenes. They need folks to show up for rallies. It takes neither money nor a lot of time to do cold-calls for a candidate. Of course, phone work can be an embarrassing job that takes some cojones to keep doing.
But even a broke college student can do more than just internet chest-thumping.
pax
lance22
February 1, 2006, 02:45 PM
Notice which political party always slits the throat of pro-gun legislation. For those of you who vote democrat I say "thank you" for helping to kill pro-carry legislation in Wisconsin. :cuss:
All it took was two democrats to ruin the combined efforts of multiple thousands of people. Gun owners who vote democrat should do the honest thing and turn their guns over to Sarah Brady for processing.:fire:
All it took was two democrats to ruin the combined efforts of multiple thousands of people. Gun owners who vote democrat should do the honest thing and turn their guns over to Sarah Brady for processing.:fire:
Monkeyleg
February 1, 2006, 07:54 PM
If you don't have money, I understand. I'm in the same boat.
You can help by organizing fund-raising shoots. We've already had one, and it brought in about $1400. Not bad for four hours.
The WCCM pays for the range, so there's no downside for the range owner. In fact, the range owner makes more money than he/she probably would otherwise.
If anyone wants to contribute, send a check to: WCCM, 3263 S. 45th St., Milwaukee, WI 53219.
I really like the death clock idea. I wonder how much it would cost to have a sign on I-94 that posted the number of victims of violent crime in WI as of that day. With 12,000 crime victims annually in the state, it would take a lot of updating.
The idea of open carry marches was discussed, but we never got that ball rolling. In hindsight, I wish I'd devoted more time to that.
You can help by organizing fund-raising shoots. We've already had one, and it brought in about $1400. Not bad for four hours.
The WCCM pays for the range, so there's no downside for the range owner. In fact, the range owner makes more money than he/she probably would otherwise.
If anyone wants to contribute, send a check to: WCCM, 3263 S. 45th St., Milwaukee, WI 53219.
I really like the death clock idea. I wonder how much it would cost to have a sign on I-94 that posted the number of victims of violent crime in WI as of that day. With 12,000 crime victims annually in the state, it would take a lot of updating.
The idea of open carry marches was discussed, but we never got that ball rolling. In hindsight, I wish I'd devoted more time to that.
Old Fuff
February 1, 2006, 08:12 PM
The idea of open carry marches was discussed, but we never got that ball rolling. In hindsight, I wish I'd devoted more time to that.
Keep in mind that any marches, while legal, will be misrepresented in the urban media. In addition the police may turn out the riot division just to make you look dangerous and threatning. In Arizona an open carry march wouldn't cause much stir. In Wisconsin there might be total panic, followed by a backlash.
But if you think you can get away with it go ahead.
Keep in mind that any marches, while legal, will be misrepresented in the urban media. In addition the police may turn out the riot division just to make you look dangerous and threatning. In Arizona an open carry march wouldn't cause much stir. In Wisconsin there might be total panic, followed by a backlash.
But if you think you can get away with it go ahead.
Strings
February 1, 2006, 08:28 PM
So long as we have the proper permits for the march, there ain't much that can be done. To help curtail backlash, one suggestion was to stage an "Empty Holster" march, instead of open carry...
Monkeyleg
February 2, 2006, 12:56 AM
As long as this thread is still alive and kicking, I thought I'd pass along this little morsel.
Just minutes after the failure of the Assembly to override, I saw Jeri Bonavia from the Wisconsin Anti-Violence effort out in the hallway.
I'm always polite and friendly with her, because we both know neither of us will convince the other to change sides.
At any rate, I congratulated her on her victory.
She just sighed, and said, "yes, for this year."
"And we all have to go through this again next year, right?" I asked.
Again she sighed. "Yes."
I think we're wearing them down more than they're wearing us down.
Just minutes after the failure of the Assembly to override, I saw Jeri Bonavia from the Wisconsin Anti-Violence effort out in the hallway.
I'm always polite and friendly with her, because we both know neither of us will convince the other to change sides.
At any rate, I congratulated her on her victory.
She just sighed, and said, "yes, for this year."
"And we all have to go through this again next year, right?" I asked.
Again she sighed. "Yes."
I think we're wearing them down more than they're wearing us down.
Old Fuff
February 2, 2006, 01:05 AM
Wisconsin is going to be like Missouri - the whole issue will rest on who wins the Governor's office next time around. Your problem is that you have enough strength in the legislature to pass a CCW bill, but not overcome a governor's veto. It appears that your governor is going to be crippled with scandals - so work first of all to get rid of him.
If you are successful the two legislators that turned on you won't matter, and you can go after them anytime you want.
The Democrats MUST hold on to the Governor's office or their whole agenda will be blocked.
If you are successful the two legislators that turned on you won't matter, and you can go after them anytime you want.
The Democrats MUST hold on to the Governor's office or their whole agenda will be blocked.
AJ Dual
February 2, 2006, 01:16 AM
I think we're wearing them down more than they're wearing us down.
I agree, some of them have to have studied the Missouri battle, and how long that took. They know what we're made of.
I'm sounding like a broken record, but we KNOW, that CCW won't be a problem once it's passed. We have the experiances of 37 shall-issue states backing us up on that. Even where there is criminal cause to revoke permits, the rate is at a fraction of 1%, much less than the non-permit holding public at large. It's less than those states felony/dismissal rate for sworn LEO's.
There is a difference between reality, and bending your perceptions to match what you want to believe. We have the former, the anti's the latter. Jeri Bonavia has admitted it to Dick's face. She admits that they oppose CCW, not on true safety concerns, but only as a front in their general battle with RKBA et al. IMO, only the "useful idiots" that comprise their base actualy believe the hyperbole and the rhetoric.
So I have to ask...
CCW would seem to me to be the MOST EXTREME expression of RKBA in the U.S. today, I'd go so far as to say it's more important than the '34 NFA, or the '68 GCA. A .38 snubbie in your pocket on the street, is much more potent and effective than full-auto toys in your safe... So if CCW is not a problem, why is any facet of the "gun debate" even a debate?
The reason is that Jeri gets a salary from WAVE, as do all her counterparts from all the other groups such as Brady and VPC. Without us as the bogeyman, she has to go find a real job. I suppose they could actualy work to stem violence by outreach to dissafected inner city minority youth, but that's probably too much like work, as compared to stalking the halls of the Capitol.
Monkeyleg, and the rest of us, are unpaid. Sure, the NRA and their pro staffers have done a lot for us, but we have many times the actual man hours in pure donated time than the anti's.
What does that say?
I agree, some of them have to have studied the Missouri battle, and how long that took. They know what we're made of.
I'm sounding like a broken record, but we KNOW, that CCW won't be a problem once it's passed. We have the experiances of 37 shall-issue states backing us up on that. Even where there is criminal cause to revoke permits, the rate is at a fraction of 1%, much less than the non-permit holding public at large. It's less than those states felony/dismissal rate for sworn LEO's.
There is a difference between reality, and bending your perceptions to match what you want to believe. We have the former, the anti's the latter. Jeri Bonavia has admitted it to Dick's face. She admits that they oppose CCW, not on true safety concerns, but only as a front in their general battle with RKBA et al. IMO, only the "useful idiots" that comprise their base actualy believe the hyperbole and the rhetoric.
So I have to ask...
CCW would seem to me to be the MOST EXTREME expression of RKBA in the U.S. today, I'd go so far as to say it's more important than the '34 NFA, or the '68 GCA. A .38 snubbie in your pocket on the street, is much more potent and effective than full-auto toys in your safe... So if CCW is not a problem, why is any facet of the "gun debate" even a debate?
The reason is that Jeri gets a salary from WAVE, as do all her counterparts from all the other groups such as Brady and VPC. Without us as the bogeyman, she has to go find a real job. I suppose they could actualy work to stem violence by outreach to dissafected inner city minority youth, but that's probably too much like work, as compared to stalking the halls of the Capitol.
Monkeyleg, and the rest of us, are unpaid. Sure, the NRA and their pro staffers have done a lot for us, but we have many times the actual man hours in pure donated time than the anti's.
What does that say?
Old Fuff
February 2, 2006, 10:25 AM
It says that you want something, and believe in it, and you'll work harder then they will to get it... ;)
The key word here should be “coalitions.” Find other groups that have an axe to grind against the governor, certain legislators, or Democrats in general. When practical, agree to support their cause if they will help with yours.
Candidates that win do so because of the coalitions they put together. Those that lose do so because they didn’t.
Also never forget that it isn’t the issue that usually matters. It’s the determination of one side to be able to impose their will on the other.
And remember that Missouri in an overall context, not just CCW, is a liberal Democrat’s nightmare… They had the power. Now they have next to nothing. In Wisconsin they have a lot more to lose then just gun issues. If you win they may lose the whole ball game. That a high price to pay for a relatively inconsequential (from their point of view) fight over carry permits.
The key word here should be “coalitions.” Find other groups that have an axe to grind against the governor, certain legislators, or Democrats in general. When practical, agree to support their cause if they will help with yours.
Candidates that win do so because of the coalitions they put together. Those that lose do so because they didn’t.
Also never forget that it isn’t the issue that usually matters. It’s the determination of one side to be able to impose their will on the other.
And remember that Missouri in an overall context, not just CCW, is a liberal Democrat’s nightmare… They had the power. Now they have next to nothing. In Wisconsin they have a lot more to lose then just gun issues. If you win they may lose the whole ball game. That a high price to pay for a relatively inconsequential (from their point of view) fight over carry permits.
Mongo the Mutterer
February 2, 2006, 10:39 AM
And remember that Missouri in an overall context, not just CCW, is a liberal Democrat’s nightmare… They had the power. Now they have next to nothing. Mostly nothing Fuff.
The Demogogs still have the Peoples Republic of the Kity of St. Louis and St. Louis Kounty. (and I believe Jackson County on the West side ...KC).
Guess which locales refused to issue CCW until forced to by the legislature and courts? There were only three... Three guesses...
The Demogogs still have the Peoples Republic of the Kity of St. Louis and St. Louis Kounty. (and I believe Jackson County on the West side ...KC).
Guess which locales refused to issue CCW until forced to by the legislature and courts? There were only three... Three guesses...
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