[AmYisraelChai]

This is meant to be taken as a humorous observation.

I feel like a shrink sometimes. listening to the myths and tall tales of American shooters.

Let me give you a few examples. These are not something I see from time to time either. With thousands of people through the door every week I hear these every day. I don't say much about it. When they don't understand the Law, I will try and explain to them the truth, when they don't understand something technical I will try and explain it, when they are talking about their buddy who....(was the first man on mars and cured cancer) I just let them be.

Class III weapons.

(Very few people, even super gun people understand the NFA). This one is as much the medias fault as anyones. When I pull one of the Autos out, the reaction is almost always the same. Half the firing line has a big grin and half think they are illegal. When some of the basics of laws of Class III are explained, most people think they are now legal because of the AWB expiring. A vast majority of gun people think the AWB has something to do with Full Autos.

Don't bump fire your rifle and then tell someone who doesn't know any better you have a full auto. People do this to impress others. Let me tell you about the people you are impressing....they will tell everyone they know about you and your awesome "full Auto" not to be a snitch, but because if you have it, it must be OK and it sure was cool...and people like to talk about things that are cool ...It will get you a knock on your door from and LEO.


A vast majority of Gun people think there is really a class III license(like a DL) and with this mythical beast you may now go forth and buy full autos at will. I hear this often. BTW, if you bring out an illegal Full Auto....dont tell me you have a "class III license" I will ask you to see it. When you tell me you left it at home, and I ask what it looks like, don't tell me "like a drivers license". Yes, this happens from time to time. Your buddy is lying when he tells you he has this license.

When you ask how much the (NFA MP5s, UZI, AR, whatnot) is and I say, you could get one in the range of (Insert many thousand dollar price tag here) don't tell me your "buddy" has one he bought for a grand at the gun show last week or you have seen them for sale on subguns for 1500 bucks. (Most people know more about Chinese algebra than they do pre/post 1986)

Don't tell me you have a Glock 18...really Don't tell me you have a glock 7. If your buddy told you he did, he lied.

You do not have a buddy with a mini gun. And if you are someone who really knows one of the lucky 15 or so....I am sorry, but I will take my chances and say...you do not have a buddy with a minigun. If you really have a buddy who says he does....chances are he lied.

You do not get to keep or did not get to keep your M16 when you left the service. If your buddy told you he did or you can...he lied.

I understand you are/were in the service, thankyou from the bottom of my heart, I served as well. However, that does not entitle you in any way to special machine gun buying powers.....if your buddy told you so, he lied.


LEO/Government marked magazines.

The myth generally goes something like this. "I have a buddy with some of those, he got them from a Navy Seal or his best friend who is a cop OR he was a (insert operator title here) Folks, I know how this gets started. Someone not overly gun smart is over at the house, and you start showing these off and start the myth factory. "Yeah not just anyone can get these" or something to similar effect.

Many Police do not have a firm handle on this one either. Some think the markings carry the weight of law and some are confused.


Fishing stories and other lies told

Don't tell me you were a Ranger, Seal, Door gunner on the space shuttle unless you were. You have no Idea what I was or my rangemasters were. One day a guy was wearing a Seal hat. I asked him what he did, he told me he was just a cook. He shot for free that day.

If you are in the military or Law enforcment, Do not try and tell me how it is going to be...again, thankyou for your service but obey my rules. Two young E-5s decided to tell me they were federal agents one day....they did not want anything really...but they just wanted to tell me. A friend of mine who is (was active at the time) a Brig General just happened to be there at the time. That was fun.

Just remember on a civilian firing range we have green horns and green berets, I don't have magic powers that let me know which one you are just because you are here.

When a bullet leaves the rifle it begins to do two things right away, start to drop relative to the theoretical bore line and begins to slow down. Do not tell me bullets "rise" I will give you a stick diagram explaining sights and parabolic arcs and whatnot. I can not draw and chances are it will take you a while to understand this. Just remember, your buddy who told you bullets rise....he lied.

Your Buddy did not carry a desert eagle in 50 AE as a Cop, Ranger, SEAL, whatnot

An MP5 is not a battle rifle.

The very air from a .45 as it closely misses you will not knock you across the room. Your buddy who told you he saw this or did this...Lied.

Other strangeness

We staple targets to target boards. When someone comes in they get a fresh target on a board to go out to the line with. Often we just staple a fresh target over the used ones, this can create many layers. At least once a week someone will say (and mean it) "Oh, I can just peel it off if I want a new target"...as they look at the layers underneath.

For the most part, "9" is not a gun. When you ask me for help of some kind and I ask for the make..."9" is not the best answer.

Every day people want my opinions on their guns. Well, This is a hard one. People are proud of their guns, they paid good money for them or someone loved gave or left them to them. They look to me to tell them "Why good sir, you have a magnificent weapon here, it is worth an untold fortune and can dot a man's eye at a mile, it might be from the Queen of Englands personal Armory!" Every now and then this is the case....but for the most part....Your cobbled together 1911 that your grandfather molested and left you is a POS...or your high point will be used in a crime at some point in its life if it doesn't get sold for scrap first...or, "Well sir, I know your uncle told you he used this Luger to personaly shoot Hitler, but you see that stamp that says 1952"...(however I just say, if it goes bang ever time and you can hit what you are aiming at...that is all you really need)


I will not break the law for you. I don't care if "so and so" sold you a gun in some illegal manner...I will not. BTW, this is not a good time to threaten me, think about what we know....we have established the fact that you are in need of a gun and I have one.

Don't go behind a berm on a cease fire. Yep...thats right. We have a 100, 200, 300 yard line. There is a reason I tell new Rangemasters to take a head count on a cease fire. And yes, a grown man will put an article of clothing on the end of a stick and wave it around from behind a pile of dirt.

No, I really don't want to see your target when you are done shooting. Yet everyone wants to show it to me, along with an explanation for every shot. On the pistol line most people have no idea what good shooting is. There is a great reason for this, there are so few good shooters. If you take a look around on any given day and you seem to have the best looking target, that is generally enough to make a man delusional enough to think he is ready for the Nationals.

Couples are great. you usually have a man passing along his bad habits to what could have become a good shooting woman.

Even Anti gun people smile when they shoot. Seriously...dont ever argue with an anti, take them shooting and pay for it....if that offer doesn't work...tie them up and throw them in the trunk as you go to the range. You can apologize when he is buying more ammo.

------

I could go on, and I am sure my spelling is bad. just know that I have never had a bad day, just some better than others and I like most everyone who comes through the doors. I get a laugh out of most of these. There is not a single complaint above, again, just observations.

[cz75bdneos22]

Aw! man...you just spoiled it for the rest of us...how dare you...:neener:
Live Life, Love Life, and learn to just let-it-go. Life is too short...Y'all.:D

[Cosmoline]

A vast majority of gun people think the AWB has something to do with Full Autos.

Where are you based, anyway? California? I don't know too many serious shooters who think this.

As far as Class III, it's not a license exactly but it sure as heck ain't just a "tax stamp" either. More of a series of forms, fingerprints and approvals. It may as well be a licensing system. Anyone who tells you anyone who can buy a normal firearm can purchase an NFA weapon is smoking something. In practice your local LEO has a completely discretionary, un-appealable veto power on any and all such transfers in his turf. Owning an NFA weapon also gives rise to obligations similar to those imposed on an FFL holder. Your prints, photos and a precise description of the firearm are all kept on file. So don't yap at me about how it's "just a tax stamp."

[AmYisraelChai]

Where are you based, anyway? California? I don't know too many serious shooters who think this.

As far as Class III, it's not a license exactly but it sure as heck ain't just a "tax stamp" either. More of a series of forms, fingerprints and approvals. It may as well be a licensing system. Anyone who tells you anyone who can buy a normal firearm can purchase an NFA weapon is smoking something. In practice your local LEO has a completely discretionary, un-appealable veto power on any and all such transfers in his turf. Owning an NFA weapon also gives rise to obligations similar to those imposed on an FFL holder. Your prints, photos and a precise description of the firearm are all kept on file. So don't yap at me about how it's "just a tax stamp."

I am in Texas, and these are just funny observations I see every day. Dont take it so seriously. Another observation I would like to make is, I am sure I see more shooters than you and yes, your standard issue gun person thinks that the AWB had something to do with machine guns. If you are on internet gun boards, chances are, you are not a standard issue gun person, nor is your circle of shooters or "serious" shooters as you call them. Remember it is not the small circle of hardcore shooters we should be educating about these matters. They are the proverbial choir. It is the guy who likes guns will shoot guns, owns a few but doesnt know much about them that are the vast majority of gun owners.

As for Class III, It is not a license...it is a process resulting in receiving a Tax Stamp, You must do this every time for every weapon you buy. That is all I am stating. Many people think you get an actual card that you can now go buy Full Autos, some people even claim to have such a card. This is funny. I can assure you I have an understanding of Class III laws.

[mustanger98]

Do you ever see Rastus bring in his single-shot .410? The one Andrew Jackson used to kill Sitting Bull at 1st Manassas? I heard you used to could get an exact copy of it from Western Auto for $19.95, but Rastus says he has the original.

[bakert]

AmYisraelChai, well stated, humorous and truly describes so many of the things I've seen and heard as a bystander at the range I shoot at.

[jtward01]

No, I really don't want to see your target when you are done shooting. Yet everyone wants to show it to me, along with an explanation for every shot. On the pistol line most people have no idea what good shooting is. There is a great reason for this, there are so few good shooters.

But what is good shooting? The standards differ so widely, depending on the type of shooting. What is good when shooting double action rapid fire would likely be considered poor by a traditional bullseye shooter. Are you taking the time to find out how your customer was shooting, or are you missing the opportunity to evaluate the shooter's results and make suggestions that might improve his abilities, increase his enjoyment and bring him back to your range more often?

[Byron Quick]

I've heard or seen most of this before. Just not from anyone I consider to be a serious shooter.

One thing though, I don't consider myself to be any type of expert in gun law or gun technical lore. But I knew all that.

I don't consider myself to be a great shot. I've much room for improvement with the pistol. Due to decline in vision as I've aged, I doubt I'll ever be as good as I once was with a rifle. Not Nationals caliber by any means but I did shoot Expert in the Army.

I'd probably be ignorant, perhaps I should say more ignorant, of the NFA if I had not been through the process of purchasing NFA items a time or two.

Hey, I was a truck driver in the Army. Can I come shoot free?:neener:

[wanderinwalker]

AmYisraelChai,

That's all so funny, and so much of it IS true!! :D

Anyway, my favorite is when people tell me how great of a shot they are at "500 meters" or whatever they want, with whichever rifle they've been talking about. I usually laugh, first asking them where they shoot 500 meters, and then asking if they'd like to go to a Highpower match. Haven't had any takers yet.

The other one I like is, "You can't hit something past 100 yards without a scope." Sometimes I patiently explain a Highpower match and the rules on equipment. Sometimes I say nothing and just smile.

Or the day I was working the back counter at work, with the firearms gear, and a customer asked me for "see-through bases". After a short round of asking whether he needed bases AND rings, the dude looks at me and says, "Do you normally work back here?" I look him in the face and say, "I probably know more about what you want than you do. Let me help." :rolleyes:

Some people!

[HankB]

A vast majority of gun people think the AWB has something to do with Full Autos. I wouldn't say the majority of gun people, but probably the majority of the general public do. Thank the media - specifically, Tom Brokaw of NBC News - for that.

When the AWB was first being debated, Brokaw "reported" on it, doing a voice-over which mentioned "semi-automatic" firearms while footage of someone shooting a fully-automatic AK variant was shown.

People and organizations (including the NRA) wrote in to protest - NBC's reply acknowledged the error, but used words to the effect that it was unintentional, minor, and that no correction was needed.

A couple of weeks later, Brokaw and NBC, by now unquestionably knowing better - did it again.

:cuss: liars.

[bogie]

Heh, heh, heh...

I know someone who knows someone who owns a minigun... Not only are they expensive to shoot - they're expensive to repair.

Remember - some of us in the "gun culture" know from whence we speak...

[280PLUS]

I got a guy that comes in, appears to know very little about guns and always wears an army fatigue hat with the word "Ranger" on it. I haven't asked.

Oh and I SAW a minigun at the last gunshow I went to but it wasn't for sale. So I ALMOST was someones buddy that owns a minigun. :D

Alright, even if it WAS for sale I didn't have the $ anyways. So I guess I was just someone who wishes he was somebody's buddy with a minigun.

I'm confusing myself...help... :eek:

Another oh, to the best of my knowledge ANYBODY can shoot the NRA nationals as long as they have the right equipment. Now actually WINNING the nationals (or even placing well) is a bit of a different story.

[bogie]

Oh yeah...

I _hate_ it when I'm at a public range, and shooting my bench gun... And the Bubba next to me is looking through his spotting scope. I fire the second shot, and he yells "you missed!" To impress those folks, you need to shoot big groups.

[Zach S]

A vast majority of gun people think the AWB has something to do with Full Autos.
It made mags more expensive...

[Nitrogen]

Even Anti gun people smile when they shoot. Seriously...dont ever argue with an anti, take them shooting and pay for it....if that offer doesn't work...tie them up and throw them in the trunk as you go to the range. You can apologize when he is buying more ammo.


This is dead-on. This is how I was finally won over.
I grew up in a VERY VERY anti-gun family.

After I grew up and left the nest, a few things happened to make me change my view on things:
1) I got mugged.
2) several unsatisfactory 911 calls that thankfully didn't lead to damage of me, or our property.

When a friend of mine actually took me shooting in the fall of '97, and he saw that huge grin on my face, he knew I was hooked. And so I was. :evil:

Since then, I have become a more serious shooter, and look to expand my knowledge. My goals do not entail shooting bullets in the same hole in targets at 15 yards, like a lot of other people I see at my range, but, if S ever does HTF, I feel that i'll react as I keep practicing, and make sure all my bullets go where I want them to go.

That, and at least a few times a month, getting that big S-eating grin on my face when I get a chance to go shooting.

[armoredman]

AYC, very true post. I worked an indoor, and an outdoor range as Range Safety Officer and assistant CCW Instructor, as well as being a RangeMaster and firearms safety instructor for two other civilian armed outfits. When I get around to it, I'll go to the Firearms Instructor Academy for my Dept, just to make it 5 places I have taught people how to shoot. As a a matter of fact, just had my annual qualification Tuesday.
Am I bragging? Nope, just saying, I DO know exactly what you're talking about! There are more partially informed people in the world than we really need, and sometimes, we are those same people.
I don't know anyone with a minigun, unless Dillon counts, but he doesnt know me!

[gvass]

The gun shop buyer/range people seems to be the same verywhere.:-)))

I found, that our nation consists at least 5 million ex-army-snipers, and/or 5 million ex-SWAT-Team members.

And we are only 10 million.

But Why the heck did we lost 2 world wars and 2 revolutions only in the last 100 years?

[trickyasafox]

so what your telling me is the garand my brother had in the 300 meter course didn't kill the highest ranking nazi officers and convince hitler to shoot himiself?

[gt3944]

thanks man its funny and true....:D

[benEzra]

Good post!

Someone has said that if all the guys who say they were in Delta were actually in it, it would've been the largest unit in the army...

[mole]

My grandfather definitely could shoot better at 500 yards than at 300,200, and 100 yards (angle wise, not group wise). Of course he was wearing a full pack, started at 500 then had to run to 300, then 200, 100 as fast as he could using a garand. At 500 he said everything was good, but you where breathing too hard at 300,etc, to hold the rifle steady enough.

[merk]

+1.

Gave me a good chuckle.

[El Tejon]

Pfffft, I've been around guns all my life--I don't need any fancy, shmancy training.:D

[Bobarino]

man some of those ring so true. like your SEAL cap wearing friend, i got a free box of ammo one day at the pistol range. the guy ahead of me in line was telling the clerk his sob story of how his barrel was heating up and warping, his sights were off and the ammo was bad and that's why his target looked like it had been hit by 20 rounds of 00 buck at 75 yards. he stepped aside to rearrange his wallet and i stepped to the counter and said,"i need some more practice ammo. i'm not that good of a shot, which is why i'm here, to practice and hopefully improve. i'd like a box of .40 please." the clerk laughed and gave it to me free of charge. the other guy quietly shot his last box of ammo and left. i've been humbled by others enough times at the range to know exactly where i stand. i'm average. no excuses. i'll keep practicing, and hopefully improve.

Bobby

[1911Tuner]

ROFLMAO!!! That was great!:D

Welcome aboard!

[one-shot-one]

private message me where in texas your range is, if close enough i may visit.

[Black Majik]

Quite an entertaining post!



Couples are great. you usually have a man passing along his bad habits to what could have become a good shooting woman.



That's why I stay single. So I can pass my bad habits to multiple people :evil:

[ball3006]

I used to be a great shot, now my eyes are old and I keep trooping on with my milsurps at shorter ranges. Some of those old beaters sure can shoot. I have experienced several "Seals" at the range but they packed up when we showed them what it is all about.....hehe....I have to brag about some of my targets in the hearing of the bubbas with their mega buck sniper rifles.....when I shoot my 90 buck wonders that probably served in more than one war.......also, hehe........chris3

[mustanger98]

I've heard or seen most of this before. Just not from anyone I consider to be a serious shooter.

One thing though, I don't consider myself to be any type of expert in gun law or gun technical lore. But I knew all that.

I don't consider myself to be a great shot. I've much room for improvement with the pistol. Due to decline in vision as I've aged, I doubt I'll ever be as good as I once was with a rifle. Not Nationals caliber by any means but I did shoot Expert in the Army.

I'd probably be ignorant, perhaps I should say more ignorant, of the NFA if I had not been through the process of purchasing NFA items a time or two.

Hey, I was a truck driver in the Army. Can I come shoot free?:neener:

My Grandpa was a truck driver and mechanic in the Army, 1942-50. Now, this is gonna sound like me bragging on Grandpa, but Daddy told me he'd seen him knock off shell cases from 20 paces with a pistol he took off a German and strike matches with a .22 rifle. Okay, I'm sure we've all heard stories like that, but then I did see him make a shot or two I wouldn't have tried. He passed away nine years ago. Thing is, Daddy told me Grandpa said "never qualify high; it'll get you sent to the worst places". One thing Grandpa did was inspire me to try to be as steady as he was. It's not that I am, or can be, or what, but that I can try to shoot like he did. Style is another matter because everybody's different so it seems we all have our own even within guidelines of a particular discipline. Just my $.02.

[mustanger98]

Good post!

Someone has said that if all the guys who say they were in Delta were actually in it, it would've been the largest unit in the army...

I know a guy on another board who really was in the Delta. He says he's met so many purported former SEALS, UDT members, Rangers, Special Forces, etc, that they could have all lined up across the width of Vietnam and walked north.

[Carl N. Brown]

There are gun people, then there are just people who have guns.

[chas_martel]

The one that drive me the most crazy is talking about Class 3 weapons.

They are Title 2 weapons.

Geez, that one is as bad as magazines and clips.

AmYisraelChai, where 'bouts in Texas are you? I am in Dallas.

[Manedwolf]

or, "Well sir, I know your uncle told you he used this Luger to personaly shoot Hitler, but you see that stamp that says 1952".

ROTFL! :D

[cmidkiff]

Great post :)

...I really do have a buddy (acquaintance really) who has a Glock 18... it'll put a grin on anyone's face :)

[orangeninja]

I'll one up ya.


http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=180655


The Weirdness that is range masters.

enjoy.

[KriegHund]

Hey now, ive got a slim profile and i wear BDU's! Inf act im wearing 6 color desert pants right now. they are quite comfortable and the pokcets are real nice.

That said, nice...article?

I am guilty of the full auto mishaps, for the most part.

[oh blanky]

Wow that's a lot of negative sh*+

Maybe you guys could pass on your masterful wisdom instead of ragging strangers you have met.

[KriegHund]

Oh shanky, i believe it was all intended as satrical, joking criticism, witnessed by the fact that many of us have admited to doing the things on the list, to an extent.

[TheEgg]

Don't go behind a berm on a cease fire. Yep...thats right. We have a 100, 200, 300 yard line. There is a reason I tell new Rangemasters to take a head count on a cease fire. And yes, a grown man will put an article of clothing on the end of a stick and wave it around from behind a pile of dirt.

Had that happen one day at the range. Dude goes behind the berm at 100 yards, no one can see him -- RO calls to 'commence fire'.

The berm was nice and high and thick, but I think he had to go change his shorts.

Scary and funny at the same time.:eek:

[1911Tuner]

Wow that's a lot of negative sh*+

Maybe you guys could pass on your masterful wisdom instead of ragging strangers you have met.

Ya missed the humor in it, blanky. About the only thing more enlightening than workin' in a triage area on the graveyard shift is workin' in a gun shop or
range. Oh man! Have I got stories...:rolleyes: :D

[silverlance]

probably due to my ignorance.

1. If there is no such thing as a Class III license, then why aren't just any FFL allowed to buy/sell autos?

2. what is "bump firing"? I've heard of this many times, but how exactly does one do this? is it similar to slam-firing in my yugo sks?

3. is a minigun that gatling-looking thing that was mounted on a tripod at the last show I did not go to but over whose pictures I pored longingly? does it fire 5.56mm? in which case, could one link up some Wolf and pour it through that puppy?

4. why the hell would anyone want to pay 30k for a lousy banged up old auto that my girlfriend's relatives in bulgaria could (and do) make for about $200 bucks? ok, this last is not really a question.. i suppose one could say the same for mercedes v12, maserati, etc...

okay, now enlighten my feeble mind.

[mustanger98]

probably due to my ignorance.

1. If there is no such thing as a Class III license, then why aren't just any FFL allowed to buy/sell autos?

2. what is "bump firing"? I've heard of this many times, but how exactly does one do this? is it similar to slam-firing in my yugo sks?

3. is a minigun that gatling-looking thing that was mounted on a tripod at the last show I did not go to but over whose pictures I pored longingly? does it fire 5.56mm? in which case, could one link up some Wolf and pour it through that puppy?

4. why the hell would anyone want to pay 30k for a lousy banged up old auto that my girlfriend's relatives in bulgaria could (and do) make for about $200 bucks? ok, this last is not really a question.. i suppose one could say the same for mercedes v12, maserati, etc...

okay, now enlighten my feeble mind.

1- I hope somebody can tell us.

2- "Bump firing" is what I've also heard referred to as "milking the trigger". It gives the trigger two pulls under the same recoil, but it is in no way full-auto. FWIW, I had my Garand do this with me once. It's a surprise when it happens, but I've yet to try to make it do it on purpose.

3- The Mini gun is the Gatling-looking job and it's made by GE AFAIK. There's a 5.56 version and a 20mm version... that I know of. I'm not sure what to tell you about the belted ammo for the 5.56 version.

4- I'm not gonna pay 30K for whatever it is you're talking about.

[Black Majik]

3. is a minigun that gatling-looking thing that was mounted on a tripod at the last show I did not go to but over whose pictures I pored longingly? does it fire 5.56mm? in which case, could one link up some Wolf and pour it through that puppy?




Think Terminator 2 and Predator :D

[AmYisraelChai]

probably due to my ignorance.

1. If there is no such thing as a Class III license, then why aren't just any FFL allowed to buy/sell autos?

2. what is "bump firing"? I've heard of this many times, but how exactly does one do this? is it similar to slam-firing in my yugo sks?

3. is a minigun that gatling-looking thing that was mounted on a tripod at the last show I did not go to but over whose pictures I pored longingly? does it fire 5.56mm? in which case, could one link up some Wolf and pour it through that puppy?

4. why the hell would anyone want to pay 30k for a lousy banged up old auto that my girlfriend's relatives in bulgaria could (and do) make for about $200 bucks? ok, this last is not really a question.. i suppose one could say the same for mercedes v12, maserati, etc...

okay, now enlighten my feeble mind.

Just humor folks.

I am and was clear it is talking about people who claim to have a real id card that allows them to purchase F/A

bump firing is a way of palpitating the trigger to give it the effect of slow full auto. This is also what Hellfire type devices do.

The Term Mini gun generally referes to a GE rotory barreled cannon. The most common caliber is 7.62

Would you like to have 30K in oil stocks right now? Full autos are not only fun but an appreciating asset that makes for about as sound as investment as any right now.

[chas_martel]

>Just humor folks.

>I am and was clear it is talking about people who claim to have a real id card >that allows them to purchase F/A

Ah now I get it. Your right, funny as heck!

[MechAg94]

Bump firing is when you basically hook your finger in the trigger guard and jerk or move the rifle back and forth to fire rapidly. Someone posted pictures recently showing a guy with his finger hooked in the trigger well with his thumb hooked in his pocket or belt. The recoil of the gun firing helped move the rifle back and forth actuating the trigger repeatedly with his hand remaining basically stationary.

I have milked the trigger before. I don't think that is the same thing.

[redneck2]

In my experience, there's a pretty easy way to figure out who was SF and who wasn't. If they talk about it, they weren't SF. Only met a real SEAL once. No mistaking them for the phonies. This guy could kill you with his eyes.

my son-in-law was a Ranger, 10th Mountain. Was in Somolia. Never says much but he's got the base from an 81mm with his name inscribed, from the guys in his command. Thing he really liked was that, once he got his tabs, even the brass cut him a lot of slack

[UWstudent]

HAHAHAHAHAHA.. THIS IS GREAT!!!

WAIT WAIT!! I GOT ONE!!

so this guy i knew in highschool who was a big time football player told me he was leaving to be a NAVY SEAL,.. followed by how cool he was, how many chicks he could get and how nerdy me and my friends were gonna be. lol.. anyway...

about 4 years later, i'm at my senior yr at UW. i just got a great job, driving a 40k bmw, i had PRK lasik eye surgery done corrected to 20/20, and i was getting on ft lewis (army base near Tacoma WA) and GUESS WHO WAS THE LITTLE E-2 MP CHECKING IDS!!!

SAME F'IN GUY!!!

not dissing on mp's or anything, i think they're cool.. but hell, don't lie ..

navy seals do "different" things than check ID's at a stand booth

[Standing Wolf]

No, I really don't want to see your target when you are done shooting. Yet everyone wants to show it to me, along with an explanation for every shot.

Believe it or not, I was in my thirties before I realized giving away encouragement costs me nothing.

[OEF_VET]

On the subject of NFA, some enlightenment:

There is such a thing as a Class III, but it is not what most people think it is. A Class III is a type of SOT, or Special Occupational Tax, which an FFL pays in addition to the necessary FFL fees. There are three classes of SOT. They are Class I, an importer of NFA weapons, a Class II, or manufacturer of NFA weapons, and a Class III, or dealer in NFA weapons. As the origional poster said, a Class III is NOT some driver's license like piece of paper that entitles the bearer to buy machineguns.

An FFL, or Federal Firearms License, can be one of nine types. Type 1 is a Dealer in Firearms. Type 2 is a Pawnbroker. Type 3 is a Collector of Curio & Relics, or C&R. Type 6 is a Manufacturer of Ammunition For Firearms. Type 7 is a Manufacturer of Firearms. Type 8 is an Importer of Firearms. Type 9 is a Dealer in Destructive Devices. Type 10 is a Manufacturer of Destructive Devices. Type 11 is an Importer of Destructive Devices.

The weapons themselves are most properly referred to as Title 2 weapons. Title 1 weapons being your usual, run-of-the-mill firearms not subject to the most stringent restrictions that full-auto, short-barrelled rifles, short-barrelled shotguns, suppressors, Destructive Devices, or those weapons deemed AOW's, or Any Other Weapons. Those six types of weapons are Title 2 firearms.

So, a Type 1 FFL can pay for a Class III SOT, which entitles him to sell Title 2 weapons in addition to Title 1 weapons.

[280PLUS]

OK, fine with all that BUT what does the average Joe have to do to be able to to purchase, own and operate full auto weapons?

[VirgilCaine]

An FFL, or Federal Firearms License, can be one of nine types. Type 1 is a Dealer in Firearms. Type 2 is a Pawnbroker. Type 3 is a Collector of Curio & Relics, or C&R. Type 6 is a Manufacturer of Ammunition For Firearms. Type 7 is a Manufacturer of Firearms. Type 8 is an Importer of Firearms. Type 9 is a Dealer in Destructive Devices. Type 10 is a Manufacturer of Destructive Devices. Type 11 is an Importer of Destructive Devices.

What are four and five?

[mustanger98]

Bump firing is when you basically hook your finger in the trigger guard and jerk or move the rifle back and forth to fire rapidly. Someone posted pictures recently showing a guy with his finger hooked in the trigger well with his thumb hooked in his pocket or belt. The recoil of the gun firing helped move the rifle back and forth actuating the trigger repeatedly with his hand remaining basically stationary.

I have milked the trigger before. I don't think that is the same thing.

Okay, we've both milked the trigger. But your description of bump firing is how to get the same motion going to do it on purpose.

[joab]

Many people think you get an actual card that you can now go buy Full Autos, I did. Not an actual card but a license similar to my C&R certificate with a number associated with it that you gave to be able to purchase.

But then again I have no real interest in full auto guns

[Strings]

heh... I've met several real SEALs. 'Course, I was stationed on a troop ship, and we had a contingent aboard during WestPac. That's how I know the MP5 is gun sex... ;)

Had a guy in "A" School that bought a Trident, and would wear it on his dress blues when home on leave. Couple of the guys that were BUDS bound found out about it, and "tacked" it for him...

[OEF_VET]

What are four and five?

And, that, my friend, is a good question. I don't know the answer.

[OEF_VET]

OK, fine with all that BUT what does the average Joe have to do to be able to to purchase, own and operate full auto weapons?

Here are the steps to go through in order to purchase, own, and operate a full-auto weapon:
1) Stay out of trouble with the law. This includes, but is not limited to, felonies, domestic abuse charges, drug conviction, and being adjudicated mentally defective.

2) Live in a state which allows the ownership of Title 2 firearms. If in doubt, ask BATFE.

3) Earn A LOT of disposable income. Even the least expensive fully transferable full-auto weapons are now priced over $3,000. You'll also want to budget a lot of money for ammo, as it can get expensive quickly. Also, you'll want to plan for any spare parts you'll need to keep it in operation.

4)Find the weapon you want to purchase. You can either buy from a private individual in your state, a Class 1 FFL / Class III SOT in your state, or someone in another state. If you buy from an out-of-stater, you'll have to go through some additional legal steps.

5)a) If the weapon is in your state, you pay the owner and do some paperwork. The paperwork consists of two copies each of an ATF Form 4 (Transfer of an NFA Weapon), fingerprint cards, and Certification of Compliance (says you state that you are a U.S. citizen). Submit the Form 4 to your local CLEO for their signature.

5)b) If the weapon is coming from out of state, it must be first transferred to a Class 1 FFL/Class III SOT in your state. If it's coming from another C1FFL/CIIISOT, there is no tax paid on the transfer. If it is coming from another private individual, there is a $200 transfer tax which must be paid. After it arrives at your local FFL/SOT, you proceed as in 5a, above.

6) After you local CLEO signs off on it, provided they do (here in TN they are required to do so), you submit the six pieces of paper and a check or money order, in the amount of $200, to BATFE.

7) Now you wait while BATFE and the FBI do a fairly thorough background check on you. As long as you meet the legal requirements to own a handgun, and ownership of NFA weapons is legal in your state of residence, you shouldn't worry. It'll eventually get approved. It just takes time. They are bereaucrats, afterall.

8) Wait some more.

9) No, your waiting isn't over, not yet.

10) Finally, BATFE has approved your transfer. They will mail a copy of your Form 4 back to the transferror (either the person you are buying the weapon from or the FFL/SOT). This copy will actually have a stamp on it which looks like a large postage stamp. You have to keep this copy secure. You do not want to lose it. Make copies and put the original in a gun safe or a bank safety deposit box.

11) Take your new toy to the range, provided your local range allows firing of full-auto weapons, and enjoy. Remember to bring a lot of ammo, because you will go through it.

12) Do not take your machinegun across state lines without first notifying BATFE on the proper form. Doing so could get you in deep trouble.

13) Keep your weapon in a safe place, where you are the only one who has access to it. This can be as simple as having a safe to which no one else has the combo or key.

14) Stay out of trouble with the law.

15) Ignore this part. I made an error, which was corrected by another member.

16) Enjoy your new toy as often as possible.

17) Pass on the proper information about the NFA and responsible ownership of NFA weapons, in order to help dispel the abundance of misinformation out there.

Of course, if you want to throw a few changes into the mix, you can buy one as a corporation, rather than as a private individual. This changes things like the Certificate of Compliance, storage, who's allowed to take it to the range, and inheiritence. (CEO signs CoC for each corp. officer, corp. officers are allowed access to storage and may take it to the range, corp. stays afloat after death, so any new corp. officers must pass background checks.)

[AmYisraelChai]

15) When you do own any NFA weapons, be cognizant of your will. If you die and don't have them listed, by serial number, in your will, BATFE will take them. If they are bequethed, by serial number, your heirs can take possession of them, provided they are able to pass the requisite background check. Since they are an inheiritence, your heirs will not be required to pay the $200 transfer tax. It is a tax-exempt transfer.



First, your post was well put. You may also form a corporation to own the firearms and avoid having to get the CLEO to sign. (this is one way to get around it if he wont) It is not a complicated process. It costs a lot of money and takes a fair amount of time. It is just a bunch of hoops, that is all. If you live somewhere it is legal, and you qualify, you can own a machine gun.

As to this, It is not true that you have to list these weapons in your will. If you die, with or without a will, and you owned Class III weapons, whoever is the executer of your will, or estate may have possesion of any NFA items you owned. It really is that simple. When the Heir to said weapons is identified, They file a Form 5 (Tax free transfer) with ATF, you do not need a CLEO to sign. And that is that. (assuming they can own the weapon)

[OEF_VET]

AYC,

Thanks for the compliment and the correction. You are right, as I just verified on the ATF website. The NFA weapons need not be listed in a will. I personally think it is a good idea, so that you can ensure they go to a person best suited to own them. (Wouldn't want a dyed-in-the-wool anti getting their hands on them, only to melt them into so much scrap metal.)

The corporation is a great way to avoid NFA-unfriendly CLEO's. Unfortunately, it means keeping that corporation alive, and all that that might entail, for as long as you choose to keep the NFA weapon registered to the corporation. Upon dissolution of the corp., the NFA weapon must be tranferred, sold, or turned over to ATF. Obviously, the last choice is not the best choice. Luckily, here in TN, the CLEO is required by law to sign off on NFA tranfers, unless the transferee is barred from owning a weapon to begin with (felon, etc.).

[bogie]

Yeah, I've been thinking of going Class II SOT - More so I can have a can in Missouri than for anything else... Plus, hey, it'd be some spending money for a little lathe work...

[280PLUS]

I appreciate the time you took to post that all for me (and others) Looks like the first thing I'll have to work on is that "disposable income" snag. I recently disposed of all mine into a new septic system. :(

But some day I may have some again!

:)

[VirgilCaine]

And, that, my friend, is a good question. I don't know the answer.

Wow, considering you seem to know a whole lot about NF--erm, Title II items, that seems to say something.

[rangermonroe]

When you milk a trigger, do you get cosmoline?

[AmYisraelChai]

FFL type 04 and 05 are "reserved" just being held for a future use. I dont know what that would be "Dealer of beam weapons?"

[rchernandez]

OK, fine with all that BUT what does the average Joe have to do to be able to to purchase, own and operate full auto weapons?

A lot of money...?

[OEF_VET]

Wow, considering you seem to know a whole lot about NF--erm, Title II items, that seems to say something.

I definitly don't know everything, that's for sure, and I'm more than willing to admit when I don't know the answer.

The reasons I know what I do about NFA is 1) I currently own one suppressor, with another one and an AOW awaiting approval of the Form 4's, and 2) I work part-time doing sales at local gunshows for a small, local suppressor manufacturer (same company who built both of my cans and my AOW).

Pretty much everything I posted above is readily available on the ATF website (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/index.htm).

[Strings]

>When you milk a trigger, do you get cosmoline?<

If I milk my trigger, and Cosomoline drops out, that particular gun is getting destroyed!

[chas_martel]

Thank you OEF_VET,

I've seen this topic posted over and over and over ad nauseum thru
the years. I cringe every time someone talks about getting
a MG license and buying Class 3 weapons. (Like Clips vs Mags)

You gave a very good treatsie on the topic.

I nominate we put your responses into a sticky, or perhaps at
AllYouWantToKnowAboutFFLsAndNFAstuff.com, that way
we can just tell people where to go to get educated on the topic.

PS: For anyone that cares, transfer times do seem to be shorter
than in the past.

[adaman04]

Wow, that was really long. But, I didn't notice until I read the whole thing! Good write-up and you are right on the money. When I lie (about what I got my lady for Christmas or Birthday, or where we are going for dinner, not guns) I give myself away no doubt about it. I can even tell and its embarassing. The difference between lying about flowers and Desert Eagles is a big one. A lot of "uh" and "umm" between words pretty well tells me you are full of $hit and never had any of the firearms you mention.

I know a guy who knows quite a bit about S&W revolvers, and NOTHING about other guns, hunting, etc. He always makes up stories about stuff and I can tell right away he is lying. For example, one day I was talking about my .17 HMR and he said "Yeah, I never shoulda sold mine. I wasn't too impressed with it though." Then about a month later I saw him and in a pocket full of change, I had a Hummer round. He saw it and said "Yeah I been thinking about getting me one of those some day. Never had one. Are they nice?" :cuss: :banghead:

When I was a kid I was a pretty good fibber. Actually, I was a compulsive liar. You know, like kids are. My Dad said "Son, there's nothing worse than a liar. Because, their word doesn't count for anything." One of the many lessons he has taught me, and definitely an important one.

*End of excessively long reply*

[AmYisraelChai]

PS: For anyone that cares, transfer times do seem to be shorter
than in the past.

I have noticed that as well. most of the Transfers we have done in the last year seemed to have a fair turn around time.

[MinMAN]

I try to ignore, and not agonize when possible, and try and focus on the relaxation the sport provides us. Easier said than done for a range officer. Lots of weird things can and do happen.

[OEF_VET]

PS: For anyone that cares, transfer times do seem to be shorter
than in the past.

Yeah, but when your Form 4 makes it to WV before the Form 2 for the suppressor, the wait doesn't seem too short. (Trust me, I know this from experience. Apparently, I was quick enough getting the Form 4 in to BATFE that the Form 2 hadn't even gone pending yet. The Form 2 finally went pending on 24 JAN. My check cleared the bank at least two weeks prior. No telling how long it'll take until my Form 4 goes pending.)

[depicts]

Why did you give him the ammo free? Did you think he was telling the truth that he was only a cook, or was it like the Stephan Seagal line...."I'm just a cook, a lowly cook"

Maybe he was an Intuit Native American and he was a seal cook!!! *S*:evil:

[Bart Noir]

Not anymore, since the design and rights were sold to Dillon Precision, the company that builds cartridge reloading presses and supplies. There is a branch of the company that rebuilds / fixes them and maybe makes new ones. I think they actually improved them and continue to make sales to both US and other military units. [see recent thread about miniguns defending the scientists]

Bart Noir

[VirgilCaine]

FFL type 04 and 05 are "reserved" just being held for a future use. I dont know what that would be "Dealer of beam weapons?"

Maybe. Gauss rifles?

[AmYisraelChai]

Not anymore, since the design and rights were sold to Dillon Precision, the company that builds cartridge reloading presses and supplies. There is a branch of the company that rebuilds / fixes them and maybe makes new ones. I think they actually improved them and continue to make sales to both US and other military units. [see recent thread about miniguns defending the scientists]

Bart Noir

It is my understanding that Dillion only repairs/rebuilds/improves them. I dont think any "rights" were sold as there is no longer any intullectual property to sell. (the patents expired quite a while ago) Any one who is able to do so (money, SOT paperwork, skill etc...) could take the design and copy it to manufacture new ones. At this point the only thing G.E. could have sold or held on to would be any tradmarks to the name of the gun they might have had.

I know of at least one other company that does the same thing as Dillion.

This is the same thing as making AR clones or 1911 clones. You dont need anything but the will, money and license to do so. The designs are no longer owned by anyone.

[colt.45]

you said it all man, bravo. my papa is the same way about his class 3's

[Spiggy]

A vast majority of Gun people think there is really a class III license
Oh boy, When people I knew found out that I owned guns (this started from my first .22 rifle) have asked me if I have a liscence for my gun.

I dont lie, I tell them no :D

-Gotta love the expressions on their faces when I ask them to hold my brick of ammo

Maybe. Gauss rifles?
Type 4: Mobile Suits, Amp Armors, and other non-surgical robotic enhancers and armors
Type 5: Gauss rifles, egon radiators, beam swords and other plasma based weaponry

[chas_martel]

See what I mean! Arrrgggghhhh.

Here we have a great description about the different types of FFL's (SOT's)
and Title 2 guns and yet still people call them Class 3's.

You guys do this to get under my skin right?

Colt, why don't ya just go ahead and call 'em clips?

[OEF_VET]

chas,

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

[MechAg94]

No, I really don't want to see your target when you are done shooting. Yet everyone wants to show it to me, along with an explanation for every shot. On the pistol line most people have no idea what good shooting is. There is a great reason for this, there are so few good shooters. If you take a look around on any given day and you seem to have the best looking target, that is generally enough to make a man delusional enough to think he is ready for the Nationals.

I laughed at this yesterday. Then I went to the range today with my K31. When you do better than you expected to do, you just have to tell someone. Luckily, my Dad is retired and is always happy to talk guns with his son. :)

[MechAg94]

ttt
I am surprised this one dissappeared so fast. :)

[Boom-stick]

So... does this mean I'm not supposed to show my targets to the old farts down the range?:confused:

[Master Blaster]

I _hate_ it when I'm at a public range, and shooting my bench gun... And the Bubba next to me is looking through his spotting scope. I fire the second shot, and he yells "you missed!" To impress those folks, you need to shoot big groups.


That guy was shooting next to me at my club two weeks ago, except he kept tellimg me I missed because he saw dirt fly up after every shot (he didnt have a spotting scope) He also told me about how great his remington 40X .308 rifle was, he had one and it had a leuopold tactical scope on it. So he was also shooting groups using the 40X. I was shooting groups with a 10x scope mounted on my 16" midlength AR upper, my reloads to see what load it liked best.

Then we went down range, 100 yards, and he pointed out his 5" groups of 5 shots on the shootn see targets, shot with his 40x, he then pointed to the center 2 or three rounds which were makeing a 1/2-1" group, excleimed that these were unbelievable groups except for the few fliers, and said how it could shoot one hole groups at 1000 yards with the Walmart ammo he was using.:cool:

Then he asked to see my targets which he thought I missed, All of my groups were 5 shots at a Quarter sized red sticker on a plain sheet of paper, all of them were under one inch edge to edge.........

I didn't hear another word from him for the next hour, then as I was leaving he showed me his colt h-bar, and he asked me who built my custom rifle cause he had never seen an AR shoot like that.........

I told him I ordered a RRA chrome lined upper and put it on a bushie lower I already had, so I had built it......

He didnt look too happy. Next time I see him there I will offer to shoot the 40x for him so we can see what it will do.....

[Gun Wielding Maniac]

When a bullet leaves the rifle it begins to do two things right away, start to drop relative to the theoretical bore line and begins to slow down. Do not tell me bullets "rise" I will give you a stick diagram explaining sights and parabolic arcs and whatnot. I can not draw and chances are it will take you a while to understand this. Just remember, your buddy who told you bullets rise....he lied.


I wouldnt chastise people for saying a bullet rises to a certain point before beginning to fall. It is true that technically, a bullet begins to fall as soon as it leaves the barrel. But the mechanics of 'zeroing' and calibrating firearms is sometimes pretty esoteric. Simplifications may be justified.

A bullet begins to fall as soon as it leaves the barrel. However, that is not the whole story. If you consider the rifle-bullet combination, things become more complex. When you look through a scope or through a pair of iron sights, you form a perfectly straight line between your eye, the rear sight, the front sight, and the target. This involves raising or lowering the barrel in relation to the target while keeping your eye in the same place.

Now, consider that there is also always an offset between the line of sight and the path of the bullet. Usually, between an inch and 2 inches. It should be obvious at this point, that as the bullet leaves the barrel it will be coming out at an upward angle in relation to the target. But, the line of sight is perfectly straight. Therefore, the path of the bullet MUST RISE to cross over the line of sight (forming the first "zero" with which we are all familiar) hit its apogee before finally falling and striking the target (the second zero).

So, while techincally bullets do no rise, it would not be incorrect to describe them as rising and falling in relation to the line of sight and the target.
Rant off.
:p

[mustanger98]

So... does this mean I'm not supposed to show my targets to the old farts down the range?:confused:

:confused: I don't know about that one. At my club's range, we're always seeing what each other's doing.:D It's a social thing as much as anything else.

[DogWithGun]

Wow, fun post. I think I'll put on my Ranger/Seal boonie hat and go down to the range with my class III license and shoot my mini-gun. I'll be sure not to show the rangemaster my target though since I now understand that bothers them.
:neener:

[xmaster]

When a bullet leaves the rifle it begins to do two things right away, start to drop relative to the theoretical bore line and begins to slow down. Do not tell me bullets "rise" I will give you a stick diagram explaining sights and parabolic arcs and whatnot. I can not draw and chances are it will take you a while to understand this. Just remember, your buddy who told you bullets rise....he lied.


Niether does the sun but it sure is descriptive.;)

X

[strangeone]

Another route to go to quell your full auto appetite is to become a member of your local law enforcement agency.They can order the surplus and non-taxed full autos on their official letter-head and if they are so inclined, you can baby sit this weapon as long as you are a member of their department>Easy HUH!