Conversion attempt fails


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gburner
January 3, 2003, 12:11 AM
True to my stated resolution, I began to spread the gospel according to RKBA this evening.

I had a discussion with a Socialist acquaintance of mine who is staunchly anti RKBA. Stating that only the police and military should be armed, he asked "You really think people should be allowed to possess automatic weapons?" I replied in the affirmative, that this country was created to allow people to do or be whatever they wanted but that the cost of that was taking responsibility for the consequences of your choices.

"Well you're not in the militia and 2A only applies to members of the Militia!"
he stated. I answered that all adult citizens make up the militia and that denying our God endowed right to keep and bear arms makes it impossible to have a well regulated militia.

"Well, the fundamental function of our government is the re-distribution of wealth from the haves to the have nots and to protect me from folks that would do us harm", he stated flatly. Leaving aside the Marxist rhetoric about the needs of many, blablabla...I asked what he would do if those he depended on to protect him and his failed to show up.
He stated that he would run and hide,
that it's the guy with the gun who tries to protect his home and family that is the one who gets killed. Besides, he said, "it'll never happen to me."

He returned to the halls of academia
(college professor) and I returned to Reality University, where a light always burns and the shotgun is always loaded.

We have much work to do.

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PATH
January 3, 2003, 12:15 AM
BBBAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!! BBBBAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

The sheep are ready to be shorn and slaughtered.

It really is quite Orwellian when the educated don't know enough to protect themselves!:rolleyes:

TexasVet
January 3, 2003, 12:32 AM
He returned to the halls of academia
(college professor)
--------------------------------------------

Should have reminded him about that husband and wife pair of college profs that got offed by a couple of teens last(?) year, back east in one of those heavy gun regulating states..

UnknownSailor
January 3, 2003, 01:20 AM
The were stabbed to death, too, IIRC.

bastiat
January 3, 2003, 01:25 AM
THE RKBA is in direct opposition to his political philsophy. You didn't fail, conversion would be impossible without changing his underlying beliefs.

Think about it: Most people don't want to have their wealth 'redistributed'. Especially not the people that own guns. Having parity in potential force keeps his dreamworld from becoming a reality. If only the police and military had guns, a government could force the population to live by their rules, including 'wealth redistribution' (communism).

You can't convert him. However, you can use him as example for others as to why the RKBA is important and feared by statists.

Dennis Olson
January 3, 2003, 01:32 AM
Poor deluded schmuck. I wonder how he'll feel if his daughter is ever raped and killed in front of him...? http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/images/smilies/puke.gif

Blackhawk
January 3, 2003, 01:37 AM
"Well, the fundamental function of our government is the re-distribution of wealth from the haves to the have nots and to protect me from folks that would do us harm", he stated flatly. Absolutely amazed, but I shouldn't be. It's happened so often, but that this person is a college professor is a disgrace! :fire:

Rangerover
January 3, 2003, 02:39 AM
"it'll never happen to me."
Let's hope they never have to put that on his tombstone.

'Hawk:

I've worked in and around "Higher" education most of my adult life. You would be blown away at the percentage of faculty who are card-carrying Marxists and proud of it.

Believe it.

If you are conservative you can FORGET getting hired at most universities. That's a fact. The entire modern American Higher Education system is comprised of a guild of Socialists/Communists/Leftists and there is rarely, if ever, a dissenting voice on the opposite end of the political spectrum, at least not if you want to get tenured. I don't think most taxpayers realize what a chokehold these twits have on our public education system.

My personal experience. My personal observation. YMMV. :scrutiny:

Blackhawk
January 3, 2003, 02:51 AM
I've worked in and around "Higher" education most of my adult life. You would be blown away at the percentage of faculty who are card-carrying Marxists and proud of it. I know, I know, and I've known for decades.

I'm still just amazed at it all. Parents do a decent job of raising a decent kid, then send the kid off to a "fine" school only to get back a conditioned cult member.

I just wonder how and how long Americans will put up with that. Then I realize I'd need to live another few centuries to see a change for the better.

I'm still absolutely amazed at the crap we PAY big bucks to have injected into our kids. :fire:

Rangerover
January 3, 2003, 03:15 AM
I'm still just amazed at it all. Parents do a decent job of raising a decent kid, then send the kid off to a "fine" school only to get back a conditioned cult member.
Well said! ;)

Drjones
January 3, 2003, 07:11 AM
"You really think people should be allowed to possess automatic weapons?"

Since 1934, the ONLY crime committed with a LEGALLY owned automatic weapon was committed by a POLICE OFFICER. :neener:

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcfullau.html

As of 1995, there were over 120,000 civilian-owned automatic weapons registered with the BATF.

Again, the only crime committed with such a weapon was in 1934. By a cop.

Do I need to repeat anything here? Ok, good. Next point:

"Well, the fundamental function of our government is the re-distribution of wealth from the haves to the have nots and to protect me from folks that would do us harm",
Actually, the US Supreme Court AND Congress have ruled MULTIPLE TIMES that the police have NO obligation to protect individuals.
http://hematite.com/dragon/policeprot.html

http://www.uh.edu/~dbarclay/rm/stats.htm

"Well you're not in the militia and 2A only applies to members of the Militia!" Don't even get me started on this. BRIEFLY:

"A militia when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves." - Richard Henry Lee, January 25, 1788, Letters from the Federal Farmer to The Republican, 18


"Who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers." - George Mason, Virginia Ratification Convention, 1788

"No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms within his own lands or tenements." - Thomas Jefferson, Draft of the Virginia Constitution, 1776


"Arms in the hands of citizens (may) be used at individual discretion in private self defense" - John Adams, A Defense of the Constitutions of the Government of the United States of America, 1788


"No clause in the Constitution could by any rule of construction be conceived to give to congress a power to disarm the people," - William Rawle, A View of the Constitution, 1829


Don't EVEN make me drag the poor constitution into this. This idiot's obviously never read it, and wouldn't understand it anyhow...

sm
January 3, 2003, 07:45 AM
Older returning student here. Still some sane Professors around, like to hunt, shoot..far and few between tho'. I knew I kept earplugs in backpack for a reason. Good kids from good families getting all confused.

Trying to give a visual example that its the intent and individual not the tool, I set a trash can on fire--Professor-she still didn't get it, a few students did. "oh matches don't cause arson without someone intentionally setting fire". WEll at least a few students used gray matter for a change.

St. Gunner
January 3, 2003, 09:53 AM
Still some sane Professors around, like to hunt, shoot..far and few between tho'.

Where??? I'm 28, been in and out of school for the last 10yrs, 6hrs left to a BA after all that time. In 128hrs of instruction I have never come upon a pro-gun proff. I've been bashed about the head with Karl Marx quotes, thrown out of a class for differing with a proffs view that Ben Franklin was a British loyalist, and actually had a proff tell me I couldn't make lesson plans that made students evaluate how much freedom they have(that it was to political) as she quoted Marx a few times per day. College has been the most unpleasant experience of my life, because of the blatant fascist views, which they hate for you to point out, because they call themselves liberal to sound nice and fuzzy.

I've made a few converts over the years, but bastiat is exactly right, you have to change his core beliefs before you ever change his stance on guns. What has helped me is most of them feel they are the most un-bigoted, most accepting of others, and such true liberals that they should be a shining light to others. If you look up the definition to "Liberal" in the dictionary it gives you a definition that says, "Open to all" Nothing is more counter than that very definition in terms of todays so called liberal. Todays self called liberal is actually a fascist, they wish for everyone to live life as they see fit, and for those who refuse to be reigned in by oppresive laws and regulations. A true liberal lives under the philosphy of leave me alone, do as you please, just don't infringe on my life. I explain how i live my own personal life in what would be considered a conservative manner, I sleep only with my wife, don't use drugs or drink to excess, own guns and shoot them daily, and expect my family to live up to conservative guidelines. But I truly don't give a rats behind what you do, how you live, whom you choose to sleep with, I just want to be left alone. When it becomes clear that I am more open to other people than they can ever be because of their political ideals, some do begin to just call themselves socialist, communists, or a couple now call themselves fascists, but a few whose core values ask them to be open and understanding of others, choose to alter their political affiliations to a point that they truly are. They will never vote a Republican ticket, but they do move their votes to the Libertarian box, which is where most of us ought to be putting them anyway.

You can't bash heads with these people, you have to be really sneaky about it, make em feel like they are a true tyrant of sorts, because they are, but you have to make them find that realization on their own. We read Dorothy Allisons book of essays entitled "Skin, talking about sex, class, and literature." It made a great jumping off point about guns and the equality, thus sense of power they provide to groups that would otherwise feel oppressed. In this case lesbian and gays who fear brutality at the hands of straight folks. The proff turned it over to me and let me talk about that sense of empowerment and where it came from and why. I had a half dozen other students ask for information on where to learn to shoot, some straight, some gay, a couple exotic dancers. It helped because Allison had already helped them realize they where not the liberals they thought they where.

I'm still learning this stuff and have it blow up in my face from time to time. The worst was a girl who jumped in a chair and screamed in my face, "You freedom freak." I found out later after talking to her for about three hours after class that her basis for gun laws was her own internal fear of guns. She'd had a family member commit suicide so her only experience with guns had been of how someone could hurt themselves with one. I haven't figured out how to approach this one yet and have been thinking on it for a couple years now.

Steve

2nd Amendment
January 3, 2003, 11:14 AM
Now there's a pejorative I'd have to accept with a smile and a nod.

Glock Glockler
January 3, 2003, 12:54 PM
Should have reminded him about that husband and wife pair of college profs that got offed by a couple of teens last(?) year, back east in one of those heavy gun regulating states..

If it's the incident I think you're referring to, it happened to 2 Dartmouth professors in Hanover, NH. We have virtually no gun laws, and the punks, if memory serves, were all from VT.

gburner,

I appreciate your efforts, though you'd probably be better off speaking to low-hanging fruits (people that can readily be converted) than to a muppet like this. He's in his safe, secure, govt-subsidized, little world of academia, and he doesn't want to be bothered with facts and probably resents you trying to intrude in his microcosm.

Someone like that really just needs to have reality and Darwin do their thing. If he's mugged, or something like that, his tune will change quickly.

gburner
January 3, 2003, 01:05 PM
Glocker...

Thanks for the atta boy. He seems a decent enough sort; it's a shame he'll have to get his teeth kicked in as a wake up call.

Chris Rhines
January 3, 2003, 01:48 PM
Be nice to professors, I know half-a-dozen who are active shooters and pro-RKBA activists (at one university, no less...)

Marxists, Maoists, hardcore 'Deep Greens' and explicit primitives are not worth wasting the time on. They provide amusement value and an easy target for mockery, nothing else. Bad memes like collectivism and economic central planning get filtered out through evolutionary pressure. Don't worry about it.

- Chris

Oatka
January 3, 2003, 01:50 PM
Check out what some college students have to say about the left wing influence in college.

The liberals are screaming bloody murder about the "one-sided" reports, but none of the profs involved have rebutted any statement. Probably don't want to give the site credence, which was started by an outraged mom. It's a bit of a long load.

http://noindoctrination.org/cgibin/view_listings.cgi?status=recent

4v50 Gary
January 3, 2003, 01:54 PM
Methinks the socialistic minded professor acquaintence needs to reread the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. No where in any of those two documents does it state that the purpose of government is the redistribution of wealth. Indeed, if there is any purpose to government, it is the protection of wealth. "Pursuit of happiness" didn't mean cavorting around with a supermodel. It was the means by which wealth was attained.

There was a movement in Cromwellian times that called for the levelling of society through the redistribution of wealth. You don't have to know about English history to know it didn't get far.

Neal Bloom
January 3, 2003, 02:11 PM
In my fours years in graduate school I met both types, the gun hating professors and the RKBA professors. Seems that the college of Arts and Sciences had more antis and the Agricutural college and Engineering college had more pro-gun types. The antis seemed to be socialists and that the government should take care of everything especially college professors.

A lot of universities have a liberal slant but not all the professors do. I still go dove hunting with a few and see some at the local gunshop. A couple I know are reloading fanatics.

My best friend is a professor of accounting and while she is not into guns she does understand my hobby and never has said a detracting statement. Now with some other professors it is useless to talk to them about guns. It took me a while to realize it is useless to talk to them about anything.

Bainx
January 3, 2003, 02:12 PM
gburner-
your friend needs a good ass-whuppin!
It would do him wonders.;)

gburner
January 3, 2003, 02:18 PM
The socialistic perfesser was advised of his deficit in his knowledge of the Constitution to which he responded that the Constitution has been abridged so many times as to make supposed absolute
rights guarenteed within a moot point...
i.e. "no one has absolute free speech, etc." His point seems to be that the Constitution is tainted, therefore is open to construction to suit changes in our society. He further stated that there are no moral absolutes, therefore 'rights' endowed 200+ years ago are no longer applicable; that they are, in fact, anachronistic.

TarpleyG
January 3, 2003, 02:30 PM
I'm still just amazed at it all. Parents do a decent job of raising a decent kid, then send the kid off to a "fine" school only to get back a conditioned cult member.

This is why I am trying to convince the wife that when our kids are college age, we will consider a military college. Not that they are entirely free from this sort of thing but they have to be better, right?

GT

Frohickey
January 3, 2003, 03:57 PM
You should make yourself an unwanted guest into his home. Take his car. Empty his refrigerator. Drink his beer.

Governments are instituted among men, not for the redistribution of wealth from the haves to the havenots. Governments are instituted among men, to secure and make safe the rights granted to us by our Creator.

:cuss:

Frohickey
January 3, 2003, 04:04 PM
Actually, there has been another not to long ago.
New Jersey SWAT cop Edward Lutes... he used his police-issued full-auto MP5 to shoot and kill his neighbors as well as shoot at his police chief.
Shooting Spree Cop Found Dead (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/04/11/national/main505877.shtml)
Police said Lutes went to the house of neighbors Dominick Galliano, 51, and his wife Gail, 49, killing them with several shots from the MP5. He also shot and killed the couple's son, 25-year-old Christopher.

Only cops should have guns.:rolleyes: :scrutiny:

BADSBSNF81
January 6, 2003, 03:18 AM
"Since 1934, only one legally owned machine gun has ever been used in crime, and that was a murder committed by a law enforcement officer (as opposed to a civilian). On September 15th, 1988, a 13-year veteran of the Dayton, Ohio police department, Patrolman Roger Waller, then 32, used his fully automatic MAC-11 .380 caliber submachine gun to kill a police informant, 52-year-old Lawrence Hileman. Patrolman Waller pleaded guilty in 1990, and he and an accomplice were sentenced to 18 years in prison. The 1986 'ban' on sales of new machine guns does not apply to purchases by law enforcement or government agencies. "

The above can be interpreted to mean that the MAC 11 was either department owned, or purchased by the officer with the department's permission to be used in the course of his duties as a police officer. If so, then it was not owned by a civilian. In that case, we now have two instances of machine guns owned by police departments used to commit a crime.

If he bought it for his own use, and it was registered in his name, then we have one legally registered machine gun used by a police officer to commit a crime. A subtle, yet , important difference.

jimpeel
January 6, 2003, 04:06 PM
Here is a bit of thinking to impart to your Socialist friend.

Your friend wants to ban all guns in private hands. He/she wants the police to be the only ones to have them. Would those be the same police that kicked in the wrong door and caused a 70 year old minister to have a heart attack and die?

That caused the deaths of 20 children at Waco, TX for their own protection?

That shot a mother holding a 10 month old baby after the rules of engagement were illegally changed?

That have regularly shaken down black motorists on Hwy. 95 in Florida?

That went on a drunken rampage in Los Angeles firing their weapons at signs, street lights, and a California Highway Patrolman?

That broke into the home of Donald Scott in Malibu, CA and shot him to death in a botched seizure raid that netted nothing but the death of Mr. Scott?

That fled from the scene of the Los Angeles riots leaving the people to fend for themselves with privately held firearms?

Are these the same police who played a starring role in the corruption investigations of the Knapp, Mollen, and Christopher Commissions?

Would these be the same police that have been turned into bounty hunters by the seizure and forfeiture laws?

The same police that have had seizures projected into their budgets so moneys can be supplanted elsewhere thereby forcing officers to seek out the funds through seizures to make up the shortfall?

Or perhaps the type of police who testified in the Whitey Bulger and Stephen Flemmi trial in Boston who took gifts and payoffs and allowed murders and other criminal activities to occur and go unpunished?

In ‘The Development of the American Police: An Historical Overview’, Craig Uchida notes that "If there is a common theme that can be used to characterize the police in the 19th Century, it is the large-scale corruption that occurred in most police departments across the United States" (Uchida, 1993).

In ‘Forces of Deviance: Understanding the Dark Side of Policing’, Kappeler, Sluder, and Alpert point out that corruption among police is not new or peculiar to the late 20th century. "To study the history of police is to study police deviance, corruption and misconduct." (Kappeler et al., 1994.)

These are the people that your friend wants to be the only armed people in America. He/she ignores the fact that those who hold a monopoly on guns will also hold a monopoly on gun violence. He/she has but to answer one simple question: Who will protect us from those who protect us?

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