[beerslurpy]

nevermind, I'll come back to this later

edit: I was gonna post a huge chunk from Road to Serfdom, but anyone who wants to read it wont have difficulty finding it online. No need to waste bandwidth.

So a little chunk isntead:
Many socialists have the tragic illusion that by depriving private individuals of the power they possess in an individualist system, and transferring this power to society, they thereby extinguish power. What they overlook is that, by concentrating power so that it can be used in the service of a single plan, it is not merely transformed but infinitely heightened. By uniting in the hands of some single body power formerly exercised independently by many, an amount of power is created infinitely greater than any that existed before, so much more far-reaching as almost to be different in kind. It is entirely fallacious to argue that the great power exercised by a central planning board would be "no greater than the power collectively exercised by private boards of directors." There is, in a competitive society, nobody who can exercise even a fraction of the power which a socialist planning board would possess. To decentralize power is to reduce the absolute amount of power, and the competitive system is the only system designed to minimize the power exercised by man over man. Who can seriously doubt that the power which a millionaire, who may be my employer, has over me is very much less than that which the smallest bureaucrat possesses who wields the coercive power of the state and on whose discretion it depends how I am allowed to live and work?

[Kodiaz]

Beer thanks check my post on that other one. We disagree on a bunch of things seems like we agree on a couple important ones.

[CAnnoneer]

Here are some starters:

1) From everyone by means, to everyone by needs
2) massive redistribution of resources by heavy taxation
3) an expensive, massive, myopic, and ineffectual bureaucracy
4) denial of reality as a tool of policy
5) exploitation of the capable few by the incapable many
6) "would somebody think of the children"
7) thought crime
8) individualism is dead; long live conformity
9) a disarmed populace is a safe populace (for whom?)

[Ryder]

And bean sprouts for everyone. Lots of bean sprouts! Mandatory bean sprouts! Bean sprouts for breakfast, bean spouts for lunch, bean sprouts for supper! There isn't nothing you can't do without a bean sprout!!!

Hey, it worked in the USSR with potatos :D

[RealGun]

Power comes from compliance, the ability to enforce, and the ability to overcome resistance to authority. Presidents have ignored Supreme Courts. Widespread gun ownership and the willingness to use them when necessary is a nice little balancing factor. What concerns me is not having access to military and police grade weapons.

[Kodiaz]

80 million gunowners against a group of corrupt govt employees. I say a group because not all of them would be against us. I like our odds.

[Koobuh]

This is just such common sense that I can't believe people honestly believe they're doing anyone but themselves a favor by moving towards socialism. Concentrations of power build themselves up and become corrupt, without fail. When power resides largely with the individual, freedom and prosperity can be maximized.
It's the whole foundation of the American ideal, and yet some people just don't (or, don't want) to get it.

[pcf]

Many socialists have the tragic illusion that by depriving private individuals of the power they possess in an individualist system, and transferring this power to society, they thereby extinguish power.

In theory you are correct, but I'll disagree with you on this part, socialist want to transfer power from individuals, that they view as intelectually or socially inferior, to themselves, and then use said power to control society. I've never meet a socialist or semi-serious socialist that didn't know how to run another's life and expect other to stay out of their life.

[Kodiaz]

Socialism and fascism use different mean to the same end. A ruling class telling everyone else what to do.

In Germany it was the nazis. In russia it was the communists.

Once they get the guns it's over.

[Dannyboy]

Freddy was a genius. If only more people would bother reading what he had to say.

[jnojr]

80 million gunowners against a group of corrupt govt employees. I say a group because not all of them would be against us. I like our odds.

79,500,000 would sit at home and do nothing. 495,000 that showed up would be all bluster. The remaining 5000 would be swiftly "dealt with".

[xd9fan]

This is just such common sense that I can't believe people honestly believe they're doing anyone but themselves a favor by moving towards socialism. Concentrations of power build themselves up and become corrupt, without fail. When power resides largely with the individual, freedom and prosperity can be maximized.
It's the whole foundation of the American ideal, and yet some people just don't (or, don't want) to get it.


And it today's Amerika I have one of these moments: :banghead: at least once a day.

[xd9fan]

I've never meet a socialist or semi-serious socialist that didn't know how to run another's life and expect other to stay out of their life.

That has been my experience as well 100% of the time.

My fear is that the GOP with the "tyranny of Security" are crossing this line. The umbella of "its for your security" is growing the police powers and just not addressing individual liberty at all.

Or how free men and women can and do protect thier own streets, families.

[progunner1957]

1) From everyone by means, to everyone by needs
2) massive redistribution of resources by heavy taxation
3) an expensive, massive, myopic, and ineffectual bureaucracy
4) denial of reality as a tool of policy
5) exploitation of the capable few by the incapable many
6) "would somebody think of the children"
7) thought crime
8) individualism is dead; long live conformity
9) a disarmed populace is a safe populace (for whom?)

This is the Socialist manifesto in a nutshell. It is the enemy of everything our Constitution and Bill of Rights stands for. Socialism is treasonous and is a cancer that must be cut out. Socialism and individual liberty cannot coexsist. One will ultimately kill the other.

It is what the Clintons, Kerrys, Feinsteins, Pelosis, Kennedys, Schumers, Bradys, United Nations, and Million Moms of the world live and breathe for. It is their holy grail and they will lock its shackles on every last one of us - if we let them.

In order to keep this from happening, we absolutely must get America's 80 milliom plus gun owners to STOP VOTING FOR SOCIALISTS. That is job #1.

Gunowners who vote for socialists are sleeping with the enemy. Their mantra of "There are other issues to consider" is how they justify to themselves voting for treasonous socialist politicians. When the reality of socialism is considered, their justifications are found to be hollow, impotent and vacant.

Samuel Adams addressed those who slept with the enemy in his day. His words are as valid today as they were then:

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

[Zundfolge]

edit: I was gonna post a huge chunk from Road to Serfdom, but anyone who wants to read it wont have difficulty finding it online. No need to waste bandwidth.

Here, just read the comic book version

http://www.mises.org/TRTS.htm

[beerslurpy]

79,500,000 would sit at home and do nothing. 495,000 that showed up would be all bluster. The remaining 5000 would be swiftly "dealt with".

Those numbers arent set in stone. Pushing them one direction or the other is essentially what guerilla warfare or politics are all about.

The occupier/majority wants the 5000 most hot-headed members of society to pop up and fight for their rights so they can be dealt with. Then they tighten the screws a bit more and deal with the next 5000. When they push too hard too quickly, they set off multiple groups of 5000. Look at the AWB, that mobilized millions of people without warning. They didnt fight, but only because they didnt have to- the government couldnt disregard their votes without starting a civil war. Democracy is the best system yet for giving the people the government they deserve with the minimum of bloodshed.

The insurgent/minority wants to put off the revolt until society is pissed off enough to win. They feign weakness and invite the oppressor to overstep. Then they ride through the country like Paul Revere "OMG THEYRE COMING TO TAKE OUR GUNS!" and suddenly there is a massive political movement underway.

All political movements are made up of divergent groups that have some common interest. If that interest is firearms, the key is to promote interest in firearms. That way people will experience the government intrusion firsthand and feel threatened by further encroachments.

[progunner1957]

Thanks for posting that link, Zundfolge -I found the following passage to be the most interesting:

Your thinking is "planned"...
In the dictatorship, unintentionally created by the planners, there is no room for difference of opinion. Posters, radio, press - all tell you the same lies."
Sound familiar, perhaps??

[beerslurpy]

Here, just read the comic book version

http://www.mises.org/TRTS.htm
Oh crap I totally forgot about that one. Yeah the cartoons are awesome.

[Art Eatman]

"By uniting in the hands of some single body power formerly exercised independently by many, an amount of power is created infinitely greater than any that existed before..."

Which is why central planning doesn't work. When many people are in a decision-making position, mistakes quite often cancel out.

For instance, the US system of an oil company paying royalties to a landowner, and that company having many stockholders, means that multitudes of economic decisions are made. Some are wise; some are foolish.

The government of Mexico owns the oil and the refined products. Only a very few central bureaucrats decide how the money is distributed. And so, back in the 1970s, Mexico struck oil (Bay of Campeche) and went broke. (Mexico borrowed billions of dollars, with the payback predicated upon an unending increase in the price of oil. Then came the 1980s.)

In Russia, the farmers could not get repair parts for tractors, since the central power hadn't thought of such maintenance items.

And so it inevitably goes, but the bookworm-type socialists never learn.

Art

[gc70]

In order to keep this from happening, we absolutely must get America's 80 milliom plus gun owners to STOP VOTING FOR SOCIALISTS. That is job #1.+1 ...but remind me who the Presidential candidates were besides Bush and Kerry during the last election.

[beerslurpy]

+1 ...but remind me who the Presidential candidates were besides Bush and Kerry during the last election.
The problem is not getting gun owners to turn out in the general election, but getting gun owners and other freedom minded folk to turn out DURING PRIMARIES.

The way to ensure you have a choice is to give yourself one. How awesome would it be if we had a choice between two candidates who were both pro gun and small government?

[BigRobT]

:fire: :fire: It never ceases to amaze me that the very IDEOLOGY we fought against for numerous decades is the same road we are heading towards. I can only hope that there are candidates that we can vote for in upcoming elections that won't fall for this failed ideology. It sickens me that there are some that bring home the Govt pork so well that they will remain in office until they can no longer do so physically, or are dead, (e.g.Ted Kennedy & the Big Dig). The anti- military swing that San Francisco has taken just makes me ill. Thank you, Nancy Pelosi & Diane Feinstein:cuss: :cuss: :cuss:

[DRZinn]

How awesome would it be if we had a choice between two candidates who were both pro gun and small government?I'd be ecstatic if we had just one, from a major party.

[Gordon Fink]

It never ceases to amaze me that the very IDEOLOGY we fought against for numerous decades is the same road we are heading towards.…

So stop picking between the petty fascists and casual socialists. I did.

~G. Fink