MagSafe; Yay or Nay?


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Ovid
February 6, 2006, 12:03 AM
I've been reading up on MagSafe ammunition, and trying to decide if there is any place for them in self defense firearms. At first glance, these seem to be the ideal defense ammuntion (and IDK; they MAY be), but there are a few things about them that make me pause before trusting them with my life;

I've read the article at firearmstactical about pre-fragmented ammo under penetrating, and this also makes me concerned; what if the BG is wearing heavy clothing?
http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume4/number3/article432.htm

MagSafe claims that "elite forces", police, Navy SEALs, ect. use MagSafe ammo, but I have been unable to verify this as well. Are there any PDs that carry MagSafes or Safety Slugs? And if so, are there any "street reports" with them?

MagSafe uses the "Strasbourg Tests" (where supposedly 600 "french-alpine" goats were shot) to demonstrate the efficacy of their ammo, yet
I've been unable to confirm that the "Strasbourg Tests" even happened at all, let alone happened as they say. If such a massive study were undertaken. wouldn't there be some documentation?

Does anyone here have any experience with MagSafe shootings?

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Snake Eyes
February 6, 2006, 12:14 AM
I'm of the opinion that anything worth shooting is worth shooting with real bullets.

YMMV.

The_Antibubba
February 6, 2006, 12:57 AM
Maybe the elite forces use it; the government would be about the only ones wealthy enough to test 200-300 rounds of it per gun! :cuss: $15 for five is asking too much.

OTOH, if I heard from someone reliable (and not their adcopy) that these things were truly effective and reliable, I might get a few packages for revolver use. But for a semi-auto? Not without at least 200 through it.

roscoe
February 6, 2006, 01:33 AM
If you live in a modern apartment with sheetrock party walls, this may be the way to go. I had a friend who had a bullet pass through the party wall and into his sofa. He was away, fortunately.

I agree - revolver only.

ghost squire
February 6, 2006, 02:19 AM
These babies will go through walls about as well as any other bullet. They are totally inadequate for use for self defense. What if hes aiming a gun at you? His arms will be up and the bullet will likely hit them, fragmenting and doing no real damage.

I won't go into it in detail.

GIGN used these a while back, then they stopped using them.

The Strasbourg tests probably did happen. But you have to remember that these were unobstructed lung shots on goats from a set distance away. The bullets did not hit ribs in the test and they did not aim for the heart. If the bad guy is more then that distance away, or hes wearing heavy clothing, or if the bullet hits an arm or rib etc etc it will FAIL.

1911user
February 6, 2006, 02:31 AM
I have no use for them. A good belt buckle or an arm will keep them from the intended target. I'm convinced hype and insanely-high prices contribute to their sales. After all, if it costs more than a dollar per shot, then it must be really good ammo. Right?

mrmeval
February 6, 2006, 03:15 AM
Get it and do your own tests in your gun. You can use newspaper as a simulant with and without clothing and also do accuracy tests at bench rest. If you can't do this then do it with what you can afford. Anything else is random tacticooooool spewage.

I've been reading up on MagSafe ammunition, and trying to decide if there is any place for them in self defense firearms. At first glance, these seem to be the ideal defense ammuntion (and IDK; they MAY be), but there are a few things about them that make me pause before trusting them with my life;

crofrog
February 6, 2006, 03:17 AM
In the very link you posted it contains the infomation about the pentratoin of the round. It's listed as 3 inch's average. Considering an almost perfect shot requires 7-10 inchs to reach vital organ's assuming nothing is obstructing the bullet and you are shooting him from the front.

Now start adding shots from the side, or through his arms to get to his chest, and you will never properly pentrate the target and cause damange to structures of the body nesscary to kill someone quickly.

Because of these considerations 12 inchs is considered the _minimum_ with 14 being recommended.

I also considering it's not outside the relm of possibilty for regular JHP and FMJ to deflect or not pentrate the bone of the skull. I'd not be the the least bit surprised if mag safe was in cabable of even producing reliable pentration into the crainum. Also, if it does with it's 12 #2 copper plated pellet's that produce a permant crush area of less than .07 inch's if it would even destroy enough of the brain to cause an immediate stop.

Chris

Nicky Santoro
February 6, 2006, 02:29 PM
Nay

SpookyPistolero
February 6, 2006, 04:18 PM
The 9mm functioned reliably in the two auto's I tried them in. They also functioned well in an M1 carbine.

A 9mm round was stopped by a thin wall separating two rooms in my home. If the intended role of the weapon that you'll be loading is something indoors, where overpentration would put others at risk, then these are viable defense rounds. Otherwise, I would stick to standard types of ammunition (HP, FMJ, etc.).

thorazine
February 6, 2006, 07:08 PM
Nay!

Gimme some ranger talons instead!

TC-TX
February 6, 2006, 07:54 PM
Not NO... but NO WAY!!!

rock jock
February 6, 2006, 09:00 PM
I've read quite a bit about fragmenting ammo and am convinced that when they find a nice fleshy part of the body, their terminal ballistics are pretty devastating, much more so than conventional ball/FMJ. BUT, when they hit bone/heavy clothing/any obstruction, they can come up seriously short. Maybe some folks are good enough under stress to make the perfect shot, but I am not.

ghost squire
February 6, 2006, 11:25 PM
Whos good enough to make a shot through a gap in the ribcage and into the heart?! Jelly Bryce maybe, with his smoothbore .38

orangeninja
February 7, 2006, 12:13 AM
I've been reading up on MagSafe ammunition, and trying to decide if there is any place for them in self defense firearms. At first glance, these seem to be the ideal defense ammuntion (and IDK; they MAY be), but there are a few things about them that make me pause before trusting them with my life;

I've read the article at firearmstactical about pre-fragmented ammo under penetrating, and this also makes me concerned; what if the BG is wearing heavy clothing?
http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume4/number3/article432.htm

MagSafe claims that "elite forces", police, Navy SEALs, ect. use MagSafe ammo, but I have been unable to verify this as well. Are there any PDs that carry MagSafes or Safety Slugs? And if so, are there any "street reports" with them?

MagSafe uses the "Strasbourg Tests" (where supposedly 600 "french-alpine" goats were shot) to demonstrate the efficacy of their ammo, yet
I've been unable to confirm that the "Strasbourg Tests" even happened at all, let alone happened as they say. If such a massive study were undertaken. wouldn't there be some documentation?

Does anyone here have any experience with MagSafe shootings?

I know this is not scientific proof or anything, but the only perp I've ever heard of being shot with Mag-Safe stuff lived. He was shot 3 times with Mag-Safe and "fortunantly" for the perp, the stuff fragmented in his body and didn't cause serious damage because of lack of penetration.

My .02....stick with Gold Dot, Golden Saber, Hydrashock or Winchester SXT....it's the stuff all the Uber Ammo companies wish they were.

As for elite forces using them....I'm sure they do, to shoot at paper when it is donated to them. I have serious doubts that they use it in actual combat however.

I could give a pair of tweezers to an Army Ranger then turn around and market them as the "tweezers used by America's elite forces".

Gimmeabreak:barf:

Soybomb
February 7, 2006, 02:04 AM
I think all your concerns are very valid, and I consider them to be unsuitable for self defense. I also think birdshot is too though and some people would swear by it, but I think you see the flaws.

shooter1
February 7, 2006, 08:51 AM
NAY!!

str1

cookekdjr
February 8, 2006, 11:07 PM
Magsafe ammo is a bad idea. Far too little penetration. If you want magsafe performance out of your .45, just by a .32 acp. Want Magsafe performance out of your 9mm? Buy a .25 acp.
The only time I'd feel safe in a gunfight with magsafes would be if the other guy was using them, and I had fmj's. :)
-David

PotatoJudge
February 10, 2006, 01:50 AM
I recently shot a 7.62x25 MagSafe round at a tough skinned, thick green pumpkin from about 15 feet away. It hit POA from the cz-52 at that distance (and cycled the gun completely). Most of the pumpkin that was damaged flew back at me from a palm sized chunk in the front. The back side had 4 or 5 exit wounds from the pellets. It semmed to function as advertised. Don't know how anyone should take that for self defense purposes- except maybe against the Headless Horseman.

Roundeyesamurai
February 10, 2006, 01:57 AM
MagSafe claims that "elite forces", police, Navy SEALs, ect. use MagSafe ammo, but I have been unable to verify this as well. Are there any PDs that carry MagSafes or Safety Slugs? And if so, are there any "street reports" with them?

Remember, when it comes to anything in this industry (firearms, ammunition, training, hand-to-hand combat programs, etc.), that quite a few "elite forces" of various stripes will try anything and everything at least once to see if it has merit. Many salesmen will then advertise that "such-and-such agency/organization/unit uses" their product.

Anytime you see "Used by __________", presume it means that they bought a sample of it, at least until you can prove otherwise.

asknight
February 10, 2006, 03:32 AM
All of the departments that I am familiar with carry one of the following four types of ammo in their primary gun, regardless of caliber. Speer Gold Dot, Remington Golden Saber, Winchester Ranger SXT, or Hornady TAP(XTP).

Their BUG's usually carry Winchester Silvertips or CorBon loads in .32ACP or .380ACP.

I have not yet been able to verify any departments using MagSafe.

Roundeyesamurai
February 10, 2006, 03:40 AM
All of the departments that I am familiar with carry one of the following four types of ammo in their primary gun, regardless of caliber. Speer Gold Dot, Remington Golden Saber, Winchester Ranger SXT, or Hornady TAP(XTP).

Their BUG's usually carry Winchester Silvertips or CorBon loads in .32ACP or .380ACP.

I have not yet been able to verify any departments using MagSafe.

Don't forget Hydra-Shok, that's still around (for some reason).

CigarDave
April 21, 2008, 02:37 AM
Well almost everyone here seems to have nothing good to say about this ammo except for the one guy that actually fired it into something ...
If you shoot it I'll bet you'll stop shooting your mouths off .
In 9mm the 50gr traveles at over 2100 fps . I've crono'ed this myself using the ultra hard to get Agent load and the easy to find mini glock load which I deem the same . Next you'll be happy to know that I've fired both loads through 2 kevlar level II panels and backed by telephone books . It took 3 big books to stop it . Yes folks , there's no need for the FN 5 seven iom to go through body armor which the bad guys use routinely .( I'm a NYCPD cop , glock cert. armorer & compete in IDPA & IPSIC ) Next I used a glock 19 & 26 as well as a sig 228 to test accuracy at 25yrds . It preformed as well as ANY name brand 115 or 124gr ammo like winchester , pmp , cci , pmc or federal .
Oh did I mention there virtually no recoil ? My 5yrd double tap groups are one inch ... As you know , most fire fights on the street ( non military ) occur within 5 - 10 feet .
All I can say to the critics is to go buy an 8 pack for around $15.00 and try it . If you do you'll see everything I've said here is true . While you're at it stop at your local butcher and test it against a cheap roast .
No I do not work for Magsafe in any way , shape or form . The fact is that Joe Zambone was a genius and my hat goes off to him . If you carry a 25acp with almost anyother round your better off using a knife any yes the .45acp SUPER SWAT 68gr. round not only cycles a Colt 1911 flawlessly but moves along at over 2200fps . So what does this mean in real life terms ? It will pass through heavy cloths ( like a level II vest ) & 9'' of the person wearing it . I used an old motorcycle jacket filled with a frying pan and phone books ( I like shooting phone books for some reason ) . Guest what , you didn't want to be standing behind this ...
Go buy the ammo before you knock it . The only downside I can think of is the cost but with what's happening today , plinking ammo is catching up . End of story .
-Dave
PS ; Anyone ever hear of RBCD Performance Ammunition ? Guess what , this is equally nasty stuff and comes 20rds to the box for around $40 .

PotatoJudge
April 21, 2008, 02:49 AM
Man, I just caught my typo from two years ago. Too late to edit, I guess.

CigarDave, how many rounds of MagSafe have you tested, total for all calibers?

LawofThirds
April 21, 2008, 02:55 AM
Sorry but I'm not buying it.

To the CigarDave:
Not to knock any of your claims but empirical documented evidence does not support your position. A composite projectile that's designed to break apart and "dump" all the energy very quickly simply will not give the penetration desired since the act of breaking apart absorbs much of that energy. A hollowpoint trades some of the energy for an increased wound channel diameter and a more controlled and useful 12-18" of penetration.

If super fast and ultra light was the end all for stopping power, why would african hunters that hunt dangerous game want big flat meplat bullets traveling at relatively low velocity?

Even the lovely people over at our favorite abusers of lightning graphics, EXTREME SHOCK!!!!!11!!! have recognized this and have attempted to retain maximum inertia by using tungsten. Even using tungsten however, most independent reports have said that they fail to achieve more than 7-9".

Sorry, but I call these Wunderammos like I call the claims of one Gander Mountain employee who swore up and down that Black Talons would go through "90 layers of kevlar" and that he had done it himself.

CigarDave
April 21, 2008, 03:24 AM
Hi guys . I'm new here .
I've tested magsafe in .25acp , .38 in both the defender & max load 9mm agent load ( very very hard to find ) & mini glock , 45acp super swat & defender and my friend shot steel plates in 40 S&W Mini-Glock and 357 sig ( I forget which one ) .
I'd say I've spent a few hundred bucks testing and rotating my stock . Now don't get me wrong , I've used it sparingly due to the cost , but since 1990 I'd say 3-5 packs in each caliber would be fair . Once it did what I was looking for I became satified . I use the same one round in the pipe until the head becomes loose from chambering , then I usually shoot it through old body armor
for the fun of it .

CigarDave
April 21, 2008, 03:28 AM
Black Talons happen to be the crappest rounds I ever bought . Pure hype . JUNK . They renamed them for sale after colon fergerson shot those poor unarmed people on the long island rail road . Most of his victims survived .

LawofThirds
April 21, 2008, 03:33 AM
Black Talons were one of the first "high tech" hollowpoints and as such should have the same reputation as Hydra-Shoks.

CigarDave
April 21, 2008, 03:38 AM
You've got some huge words there .
As for what you call "A composite projectile " , let me say that these rounds are largely marine epoxy ( stronger than steel pound for pound) with some lead shot . Joe Zambone improved on the not so great "Glaser Safety Slug " ...
Most hollow points fail to open ( I was trained to hunt at 8 or 9 yrs old . My Grandfather had a farm ) including magsafe . All I'm telling you is that my personal experance is that fast is good and this ammo recks it's targets . Why not Try it yourself instead of using big words with no experance ?

CigarDave
April 21, 2008, 03:50 AM
Look at the balistic table for 375 H&H magnum which is ( or was ) the entry level cartridge for dangerous game . It's hardly the bowling ball you decsribe and
we're talking defensive pistol rounds here , not big bore dangerous game rifle cartridges . Big difference .
I happen to prefer SS109 for .223 . I'm well aware of AP rounds .
This has nothing to do with the magsafe topic .
-Dave
ps ; I only joined this site because I saw what you were saying about Magsafe and I knew you never tested it ...http://www.thehighroad.org/images/smilies/fce32f95.gif
:neener:

CigarDave
April 21, 2008, 03:59 AM
If you test only a few rds , you'll be won over .
This is all I carry . Dont forget , you can always stagger
these everyother in a mag ...

CigarDave
April 21, 2008, 04:23 AM
99.999% of tungsten use is in armor piercing rifle ammo .
Can you name a single pistol manufacture ( which is what we're talking about here ) that EVER used a tungsten core ??? If I had to bet the farm I'd quess maybe Hirtenberger .
Lets stay on the topic which is how magsafe pistol ammo performs . I don't need a science / history lesson at this time , respectfully .
I've shot this ammo . I wouldn't carry it if I didn't test it first .
In all fairness I too was skeptical . Being in law enforcement long long before FN's 5.7x28mm ammo was ever thought of I had to see 9mm pass through body armor like it wasn't even there . Did I mention the Point Blank shock plate forgot
it was there as well ? Back in the day it this terrority was reserved for the now banned teflon bullets which I never saw ... Here's the rule of thumb in my humble opion and knowledge ; 2000fps & over will defeat a level II vest .
Why is this important ? Because THE BAD GUYS WEAR THEM TOO ! This was the whole pretense for FN's 5.7x28mm PISTOL ammo and yes the civilan ball ammo does the trick ...
Next ?

CigarDave
April 21, 2008, 04:32 AM
ah but will your 230gr 45acp pass through kevlar ? NOOOOOOO ... and how does one explain what I've seen , which that a 9mm goes through a shock plate and 2 panels of NYCPD kevlar and 2 phone books ? It does so Because this is very HOTammo . Now when you factor that it's hot with 1/4 of the recoil one has to ask one self , is this worth it ? Worth $20 ? I think so .

LawofThirds
April 21, 2008, 04:42 AM
Extreme Shock uses tungsten in their rounds.

http://www.extremeshockusa.com/cgistore/store.cgi?page=/new/product_info.html&setup=1&cart_id=

They use it in a powder form bonded with a polymer. Oh and by the way, I'm not endorsing their rounds in any way, I think they're another hyped up failure.

Out of curiosity what are you backing your vests with?

Steel cored 9mm will punch through a IIA or B vest without a problem and will defeat most of the non-ceramic plates without a second thought. That's specifically AP ammo though.

The teflon covered rounds were hard bronze jacketed cones and so used the teflon to try to help with feeding and with a clean bore contact. The hard bronze and the shape is what gave those rounds the penetrative qualities, not the teflon.

I'm not trying to tell you to stop using the ammunition, obviously you believe that it's the best round available and you feel better by carrying it. I just don't think it's the right ammunition for me nor would I recommend it to anyone because quite frankly, I don't think it's a good round. It's expensive, yet it fails to do the two things that have been proven to provide stopping power. It leaves a very small permanent wound channel and it does not penetrate deep enough. While the lack of recoil is a big plus, I'd be wearing a couple braces of tasers if I wanted no recoil. Then I'd be a mall pirate.

McCall911
April 21, 2008, 05:40 AM
MagSafe; Yay or Nay?

Not nay, but heck nay!!

cookekdjr
April 21, 2008, 04:55 PM
Cigardave = troll

Rampant_Colt
April 21, 2008, 06:17 PM
agreed
cigardave= troll
What do you suppose Ranger T ammo is derived from? :rolleyes:


here's MagSafe's flyer from a few years back:
click the pic
http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/8743/magsaferubbishdb1.th.jpg (http://img175.imageshack.us/my.php?image=magsaferubbishdb1.jpg)

what a load of rubbish....

Stick with proven JHP ammunition and you'll be OK
Magsafe may not function properly in your autoloader

my vote= NAY

flyby
April 22, 2008, 01:18 AM
'Just say..NAY!!!!'
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a58/Chase777/MALLNINJAS.jpg
This has been a public service announcement!
:D

LawofThirds
April 22, 2008, 03:17 AM
I hear their rounds won't penetrate a briefcase with plates or a tactical wheelbarrow.

CigarDave
April 22, 2008, 09:54 AM
My logic is this ; if all typical conventional 9mm rds get stopped by 1 panel of level II kevlar without a shock plate and also are stopped with between 1-2 heavy phone books then a round that penetrates these mediums must be hotter .
I was going to test in ballistic gelatin until I saw what Kind & Knox wants to charge for that stuff . Being in L.E. I happened to have some old kevlar lying around and figured that this is what the bad guy would be wearing in front of him , not 2 feet of ballistic gelatin .
Magsafe HP feeds just like ball . If it doesn't they make it in ball as well .
Listen if you ask me if I believe Joe Zambone went to Switzerland and shot 3 or 400 goats I'd say no ... I tend to believe "The Stroudsburg Test" is a made up term similar to "Assault Weapon" , which I can't figure out , are not all weapons in a persons hands capable of assault ? Is a pencil an assault weapon ? How about if it's sticking out of someone's throat ? This is exactly why I go to the out door range and test stuff myself . When it comes to personal defense I trust no one . I happen to believe that the industry uses widecat cartridges to try and obsolete my guns thinking I'll just through them out and buy new ones ... I'm not saying that 40 S&W and 10mm don't hit hard as hell but up until 5 years ago I was able to buy military surplus 9mm , 45acp , .223 and .308 cheap and figured since these rounds killed countless people in battle they must work . I've never heard of a war fought with .357sig have you ? Here's a good example ; why do I want .357sig which moves at roughly 1700fps and costs double ( or triple of military surplus 9mm ) when I can get 2100fps of of magsafe AND go plinking with the cheap stuff ?
Before ammo skyrocked in price I belonged to 3 private ranges , competed in IDPA,IPSIC & the Glock Shoot , shooting around 25000 rds per year ( between rifle & pistol ) . So I'm not about to go out and buy new guns everytime a manufacturer comes out with a new cartridge . It's every manufacturer's wetdream to have exclusive rights on a cartridge . Think about it . Glock did it with the .45GAP and FN did it with the 5.7x28mm just to name a few off the top of my head . Now a customer has to buy each and every round from these companies for the next 10 years I'm guessing ( I'm not a patent attorney ) . What's happening to the American consumer is a disgrace . I remember people demonstrating in front of gas stations during the 70's due to the so called oil shortage ( which happened to get fixed for the next 25 years somehow ) . Why don't you see that today ? My guess is because kids are kept ignorant by their school systems today .
Free thinking is out the window . We believe what others tell us .
This is why I employ a non believer to buy a pack or 2 of magsafe , take it to your local outdoor range ( if you still have one , if not find a friend with a country house ) and go shoot it . Test it against some of you favorite defensive rounds in some cheap household items . If you can get your hands on some old kevlar all the better . See for yourself what this round will do . What have you got to loose , 15 or 20 bucks ? A bagle costs a dollar now ... If you think this is bad has anyone seen the price of car batteries ? I think they went up 20% yesterday ... So DON'T SELL YOUR GUNS WHATEVER YOU DO ...
- this message was brought to you by an American consumer of average intelengance which relies on spellcheck -

Rampant_Colt
April 22, 2008, 11:33 AM
this message was brought to you by an American consumer of average intelengance which relies on spellcheck -
nuff said...

orionengnr
April 22, 2008, 12:13 PM
IBTL :rolleyes:

Brian Williams
April 22, 2008, 01:10 PM
Somebody stuck a fork in it, it was dun.

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