[kannonfyre]

Let me digress from the title with my first question.

For those who own stock/unmodified Ruger 10/22s, what kinds of high velocity HP .22lr rounds feed reliably in your rifle? What offerings from RWS, Winchester, CCI, Eley....feed reliably and work well? Do CCI stingers or Velocitors feed well?

Secondly, if you were defending your home against poorly armed home invaders, which would you choose? A ruger 10/22 loaded with the ammo of your choice or a pump action 12ga shotty loaded with birdshot shells? For the sake of theoretical discussion, please assume that no other firearms are immediately available, you can only use either the shotgun or the 10/22 and NOT both and that birdshot is the only kind of shotty shell permitted for sale by local government.

[Rockstar]

Why the presumption of "poorly armed?" That seems kind of silly and irrelevant to your question, to me.

I'd take the shotgun with birdshot, given the parameters of your question. In the Real World in which I live, I'd probably just settle for my friendly little Glock sitting right here by my PC. :)

[gonzo_beyondo]

For those who own stock/unmodified Ruger 10/22s, what kinds of high velocity HP .22lr rounds feed reliably in your rifle? What offerings from RWS, Winchester, CCI, Eley....feed reliably and work well? Do CCI stingers or Velocitors feed well?

You can't really get an answer to this question, other than "yes."
They all work well, it's the rifle that decides what it likes. Say for example, we both go buy 10/22s and go directly to the range with a box of Velocitors. Yours works all day long, mine works not hardly at all.

You have to buy a variety and see what works best for your rifle. Breaking the rifle in with high velocity ammo first, helps.

The most common used/recommended .22LR for small critter hunting is CCI Mini-mags and I'd say this is the best bet if your rifle likes it. There is hollow point and hydra-shok ammo etc... which would be interesting as far as defense ammo is concerned.

I believe Velocitors won't be made anymore, but I'm unclear on that. Next to impossible to find anyplace and Walmart is done carrying them.

As for stock rifles, the stock magazines are the most reliable, and as for the barrels, the non-target stock chambered 10/22s are the most versatile for ammo. You can replace the extractor and spring with Volquartsen parts for about $9 and get a buffer for $3. Good to go.

You can and sometimes do, run into more feeding problems as you upgrade parts. And the target barrels especially, due to the tighter match chamber. Accuracy means tighter tolerances and that can mean a more finicky rifle. The Ruger 10/22 is plenty enough accurate outta the box IMO.


Secondly, if you were defending your home against poorly armed home invaders, which would you choose? A ruger 10/22 loaded with the ammo of your choice or a pump action 12ga shotty loaded with birdshot shells?
I'd rather have the .22lr but that said, at real close range, the birdshot could be rather painful in someone's gut. Truth is, I'd rather nobody got that close to begin with.

[cmidkiff]

At 'across the room' distances, 12g bird shot from a good auto-loader or even a pump action would make a decent choice. I'd choose this over a 10/22 for home protection without hesitation.

I have a 'stock' 10/22, I've replaced the wood furniture with an overmolded hogue, and added a 'shock reducer' bolt pin, but the action and extractor are untouched. I have good luck with just about everything except federal bulk pack. Just won't cycle the thing reliably. I don't think it's ever had a problem when shooting CCI. I shoot mostly Winchester SuperX, and very rarely have a mis-feed.

I'm planning on putting a volquartsen extractor on it, and perhaps an extended bolt handle and auto bolt release... just 'cause I like to mess with things :)

[Rockstar]

Birdshot up close will yield more than just a "painful wound." It'll yield an horrific wound channel, possibly penetrating through-and-through a human body.

[HighVelocity]

00 Buck is bird shot for Pterodactyls.

Seriously though, I would choose the shotgun regardless of the load. A 3" mag full of #6 shot is going to do some real damage at close range.

[dwave]

I had the same problem with Federal ammo in my 10/22, it would not feed very well and I had a bunch of jams. I personally use winchester bullets in my gun.

As for home defence, I would take the scatter gun hands down because inside the house would be close range and it would be more effective. Also as a bonus, you don't have to worry much about aiming, just point and shoot.

[106rr]

If noise is a problem then the 10/22 is best. Most people would choose the shotgun. The shottie has a sort of finality to it

[MCgunner]

Why am I stuck with bird shot? I can buy five rounds of 00 at wallyworld pretty cheap, ya know.

Shotgun in the home, .22 at extended ranges, unless I can trade some #8 for a couple of slugs or some 00.

[MudPuppy]

you don't have to worry much about aiming, just point and shoot.

I've got a 20 inch barrel and measured a few distances in the house that would be a typical distance for firing on an intruder. It's not more than 13 feet and more usually 7 feet.

I've not patterned any shot at those distances, but would be surprised if the pattern opened up much at all. I hear the point and shoot a lot, but I'm not sure that is something I trust.

[Twycross]

Also as a bonus, you don't have to worry much about aiming, just point and shoot.
Not unless the ranges in your house are a lot bigger than the ranges in mine. At typical HD ranges, even a load of #9 should stay together, not getting a whole lot bigger than a slug. It doesn't just form a 3-ft pattern right out of the muzzle.

[Deer Hunter]

I've got a 20 inch barrel and measured a few distances in the house that would be a typical distance for firing on an intruder. It's not more than 13 feet and more usually 7 feet.

I've not patterned any shot at those distances, but would be surprised if the pattern opened up much at all. I hear the point and shoot a lot, but I'm not sure that is something I trust.
I've got a 20 inch barrel on my 12 gauge Coach Gun, and I can honestly say that the pattern does not open up much at all at those distances. I shot a washing machine (:D) at around 13 feet and the shot didn't spread out more than 4 inches. Birdshot can be very hurtful at close ranges.

[Chip Dixon]

Never assume that an intruder isn't well armed.
By bringing out a gun to defend yourself you just escalated the situation to a lethal-force scenario. You may be in imminent danger of being killed as a result, as the intruder may have a S&W Model 29 concealed that you haven't seen as of yet.

If you're going to bring out a lethal force implement, you had better make good use of it quickly, and be prepared for the worst--or you're setting yourself up for trouble.

I can understand using a some Turkey shot for the first shot if you have a pump shotgun, but you had better have some serious ammo to follow it up in the tube after that--in case the situation takes a turn for the worse.

I, personally, load up my shotgun with 3" magnum 00 buckshot, 15 pellets.
If the simple presentation of the shotgun isn't enough to make them run, then
they need stopped... NOW.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Birdshot is not an effective load for 100lb+ mammals at any range. Whether it breaks up or not, it doesn't penetrate deeply enough to be effective. You can look at historical examples, like the James gang raid on Northfield (http://www.angelfire.com/mi2/jamesyoungergang/northfield.html) where Clell Miller caught a blast of birdshot in the face at short range from Elias Stacy. The only thing that stopped Stacy from being killed by Miller was Henry Wheeler shooting him with a rifle.

Modern shotguns are no more effective with birdshot. I've talked to people who received a 12ga shell of birdshot from 15' in the upper chest and made their own 911 call. .22LR isn't great; but it is more likely to go where it is aimed (especially with someone less skilled behind the trigger) and it will penetrate better than birdshot.

[GullyFoyle]

My son could empty the mag of his 10/22 in 2-3 seconds at age 11. And those groupings rarely exceeded a few inches at 7 yards. What does a .22LR bullet equate to in terms of shotgun pellet size? I don't know shotguns well, but i am guessing a heck of a lot larger than a birdshot pellet. How much more velocity do you get out of a .22LR? Again i don't know the numbers but i'm guessing the answer is LOTS.

Ruger 10/22 over birdshot. Without a doubt.

[DagoRed]

12 guage with 6 shot is a top stopper at ranges less than 10 yards.

10/22 with bullets have a much greater chance of wall penetration risking injury to people in other rooms or even the next house. I would not want to risk my life on a .22 stopping a pissed off intruder. The 12 guage would not only stop him, but probably move him backwards as well.

I would use the .22 for pissed of squirrels, use the 12 guage for home defense.

I dont really think there is a choice.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

12 guage with 6 shot is a top stopper at ranges less than 10 yards.

According to whom?

10/22 with bullets have a much greater chance of wall penetration risking injury to people in other rooms or even the next house. I would not want to risk my life on a .22 stopping a pissed off intruder. The 12 guage would not only stop him, but probably move him backwards as well.

So .22 is dangerous because it is more likely to penetrate sheetrock; but is not dangerous enough to stop a threat to your life? In contrast, 12ga birdshot will stop an intruder and move them backwards; but will not penetrate sheetrock. Could you explain the physics of that to me?

[Lupinus]

If we weren't talkingbirshot it wouldn't be much of a question. With buck or slugs it would be a shotgun no contest. But we are talking birdshot, and I am incined to go with Bart. Birdshot just doesn't penetraite enough on large dense game enough to do squat thats why we step up to slugs or buckshot for shooting larger game.

I would go with the 22. Not a great manstopper but a bullet in the heart or lungs is a bullet in the heart or lungs when you have no better option. I have a marlin model 60 I can keep a total of 16 rounds in, one chamberd fifteen in the tube. Personally I wouldn't want sixteen close to quarter inch holes in my chest. I can think of anyone that would either and sixteen rounds of even just 22 I would feel comfertable to at least disable an intruder or a few bangs will make them run off.

[colt.45]

you guys are under estimating the 12 guage. if you used a bigger turkey sised shot you could get some pretty decent penetration, and if it doesnt knock them over and pry them open, just think how bad that would hurt. shotguns are also good in combat because they create fear, even if you missed, the thought of being shot at with a 12 bore would scare me. id take the shotgun hands down.

[Firethorn]

A shotgun round of birdshot at extremely close range (<15') is almost like a glaser round. It hasn't had time to seperate yet. Smaller shot does loose energy quicker than larger shot due to increased atmosphere friction, but at that short of a distance the wad frequently hasn't even had time to drop off yet. It'll penetrate deep enough, and make hundreds of small holes.

Heck, there was that kid who killed a bear with birdshot out of a 20 gauge. I think it was #8 shot or something

This isn't the incident I was thinking about, but he killed a bear with the richochet of #7 skeet shot (http://www.chilkatvalleynews.com/archive/2000-21-1.html)

I'd still rather go with larger, but if you're concerned with overpenetration, I'd tend to think that for household ranges you'd be able to work with it. Like Colt said, if you go with Turkey shot, you should get plenty of penetration and still be firing lead that's not likely to kill after passage through two sheets of drywall.

[kannonfyre]

Any more info or opinions on what hunting .22lr cartridges feed well in the 10/22s that you guys own?

[Hardtarget]

If my bird shot could be the largest bird shot available...make mine lead BB, thank you very much. I'll go 1.5 oz in 12 ga., 3 inch. I figure a Winchester Defender with 8 of those and reloads on the belt will keep most thugs off the porch.:D Makins for a nasty night!
Mark.

[MudPuppy]

I've always had great luck with those remington yellow jackets. But honestly, I can't think of much it didn't like.

If I had to choose between the mossberg with 6 or so birdshot or the 10/22 with a 30 round mag, personally, I'd go with the 22.

On the other side, I'd not care to be hit with either.

[foghornl]

If for some reason, you cannot get anything but bird shot, I recommend the largest "Birdshot" you can find....

like #4 Turkey, or #2/#4 waterfowl loads.

[LawDog]

Year or so back, my county had three back-to-back shootings of trespassers. In all three shootings, the weapon of choice was a 12 gauge loaded with 7 1/2 birdshot at social distances.

All three critters were DRT*.

LawDog

*Dead Right There.

[Rockstar]

Birdshot is not an effective load for 100lb+ mammals at any range. Whether it breaks up or not, it doesn't penetrate deeply enough to be effective. You can look at historical examples, like the James gang raid on Northfield (http://www.angelfire.com/mi2/jamesyoungergang/northfield.html) where Clell Miller caught a blast of birdshot in the face at short range from Elias Stacy. The only thing that stopped Stacy from being killed by Miller was Henry Wheeler shooting him with a rifle.

Modern shotguns are no more effective with birdshot. I've talked to people who received a 12ga shell of birdshot from 15' in the upper chest and made their own 911 call. .22LR isn't great; but it is more likely to go where it is aimed (especially with someone less skilled behind the trigger) and it will penetrate better than birdshot.


With due respect for Bartholomew, (because I agree with him 99% of the time) I believe that his anecdotes aren't factual. A full load of #8 shot @ 15' will blow your head off and will certainly more than penetrate the chest cavity, assuming no body armor. One-hundred-year-old "recollections" of the activities of the James Gang don't make for good science. Spend your life in Quail Country, and you'll know a little more about the effects of birdshot at close range. :) I have attended several murder trials over the years where the weapon was a shotgun loaded with birdshot. Let's use, as an example, a 12 ga. full choke loaded up with 3 1/4, 1 1/4 #8 @ 15'.

[Fred Fuller]

There are no magic bullets no matter what their size. All are governed by the same physical laws as everything else. Projectiles fired from small arms depend on two things for effectiveness- penetration and placement. If you don't have proper placement and you don't get sufficient penetration it doesn't matter very much WHAT you are shooting.

Noting in passing that the plural of anecdotes is not data, I have seen one-shot stops with both rimfires and 12 ga. birdshot in several years spent working as an EMT. But I have seen failures to stop from both too- no way can anyone say without qualification that one is 'better' than the other. It depends on placement and penetration. Either one can be lethal. Or not.

Any person trying to plan for self defense with a firearm had best consider the biggest variable in the equation- the shooter. Software is more important than hardware...

lpl/nc

[gonzo_beyondo]

Interesting article, (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060207/ap_on_fe_st/accidental_shooting) and a thread resulting from it here (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=435077)

PROCTOR, Ark. - A 94-year-old man who accidentally shot himself in the abdomen while cleaning his shotgun is expected to make a full recovery, despite waiting until the next morning to ask for help.

Sturghill waited for a home health care nurse to arrive about 8:30 a.m. Monday before asking for medical attention.

Before the nurse arrived, Sturghill had cleaned the wound and wrapped it with a towel, Martin said.

Now notice two things... 94 years old! Birdshot in abdomen point blank!
The guy just chilled, till the next day, got treated, and is still fine.

Folks... I'll take the .22LR with something suitable in the magazine, like high velocity hollow points... before I trust my life to something that won't seriously damage a frail 94 year old man at point blank range. Anecdotal bullpatties from cowboy days aside, this is reality.

One person in the thread makes the valid point:
Birdshot, by definition, is made to kill small, thin skinned creatures with hollow bones while doing as little damage as possible. What makes people use the same load to try to stop a 200 pound felon that they would use to kill a seven pound bird?
And I believe the news story backs this up, 110%

Now with this information on the table...
Who still wants to rely on birdshot to save their life? :uhoh: How many shots would it take to put down a 94 year old? How many to put down a 200lb felon hopped up on meth? :scrutiny:

[Deathrider1579]

I vote for a combination of flechete shells and those nifty flame thrower rounds (I'm Kidding btw)

I would go with the .22 lr given the options with the biggest mag that worked reliably and a few spares.

-DR

[1911JMB]

For home defense, I'd take the shotgun. As muscle car enthusiasts say, there is no replacement for displacement. But for bird hunting, I'd take the 10/22, dripping in CLP with any production regular to high velocity ammo. I use my 4 power scoped 10/22 for crow hunting at beyond shotgun range, and it works rather well with my 50 round magazine.

[benEzra]

Given the ammo limitations on the shotgun, I'll take a 10/22 with a 25 or 50-round magazine, a Choate stock, and a red-dot please... :)

[Bartholomew Roberts]

With due respect for Bartholomew, (because I agree with him 99% of the time) I believe that his anecdotes aren't factual. A full load of #8 shot @ 15' will blow your head off and will certainly more than penetrate the chest cavity, assuming no body armor.

Sure they will penetrate; but will they penetrate deeply enough to stop a threat? Probably not since #8 birdshot from 9' doesn't even penetrate more than 4.5" in jello (see previous link). What happens is you can get something like this:

http://radiographics.rsnajnls.org/cgi/content/full/19/5/1358/F12A

As for whether the anecdote was factual. I wasn't at the shooting so I can't confirm the details. I can confirm the person telling it was struck in the upper chest by birdshot based on the scarring. I can confirm he had a tape of a 911 call with his voice making the call. I feel confident this person was being truthful.

But we don't have to rely on that anecdote, since there are more than a few documented instances:

Here is a story of a man shot by birdshot in the face at household distances (http://www.ndcourts.com/court/opinions/900253.htm). He survived by running to the road and hitching a ride to the hospital.

A tragic story of a 14yr. old girl struck in the face by birdshot (http://www.martinsvillebulletin.com/Archive/2001/Aug%20'01/a080101.htm) fired by her stepfather as she stood on the porch with her mother. She was blinded but survived.

Teenager shot in the hip with birdshot from end of car as he stands at passenger window (http://www.state.hi.us/jud/ica23223.htm). Victim runs to his mother's car for cover and survives.

[f4t9r]

Pick the shotgun
as for 22 ammo just try diff ones and see what works , oddly what works in one may not work as well in another

[dwave]

Not unless the ranges in your house are a lot bigger than the ranges in mine. At typical HD ranges, even a load of #9 should stay together, not getting a whole lot bigger than a slug. It doesn't just form a 3-ft pattern right out of the muzzle.

No it doesn't, but the pattern really depends on the gun, but even if the shot only opened up 1 or 2 inches, that is still better than a .22 inch pattern that doesn't open up a .22 will give.

I would take the shotgun because I have 15 feet to the door from my room, and that would be plenty for the pattern to open up with the shotgun I have.

[middy]

10/22 everytime.

[bowfin]

When did we start calling them "shotties"? I must not have gotten the memo. It doesn't even save us a syllable's worth of work!:p

Anyhow, I seem to recall a pheasant hunter in Montana whose pointer fetched him up a grizzly bear, which took offense. The grizzly bear immediately succumbed to three loads of #6 steel at close range. I can't imagine more than one victim in a hundred surviving a modern shotshell to the head or torso when shot at 10 feet or less, but that just might be my imagination's fault. I am sure some have, but former Senator Bob Dole was hit by a 37mm Flak gun and survived.

[1911Tuner]

Testing on drywall and ballistic gelatin several years ago lead me to the conclusion that a very good scattergun home defense round is the 12 gauge 2 and 3/4 inch magnum loaded with 24 pellets of #4 buckshot. Hard hitter...enough penetration at close range even against heavy clothing, and a single sheet of drywall will slow it to the point that, while it would cause some damage, it wouldn't penetrate much beyond an inch or two in gelatin after hitting the sheetrock at 20 feet. 20 foot penetration in bare gelatin was about 10 inches (with shot charge opening up inside the block into a 4-inch cone within 6 inches of penetration. Very nasty wound potential)...and 6-8 inches after going through a heavy winter coat. Testing done with a 20-inch coach gun w/barels bored cyl and cyl.

Longer barrels would probably yield different results due to velocity increase.

Another pretty good one is the old 3" 20 gauge with #1 Buck...but I haven't seen any of that ammo in several years.

[akodo]

"only" 4.5 inches of penetration?

Look at a 4.5 inch knifeblade. Looks plenty long to reach vital organs for me.

I checked out those pictures, and even the #8 shot, the first 3 inches were torn to hell.

In my gun saftey class the game warden brought in pictures of accidental shootings, all of which involved shotguns. Suffice to say, those were instantly lethal wounds.

The shotgun is going to tear one hell of a wound, lots of shock, lots of bloodloss.

.22s have a reputation of hitting the heart but not killing the person until 10 minutes later.

However, do you own experiments. Go buy some pumpkins, or watermelon, or watever, and blast them