[Hoshua1]

1. What factors contribute do the loudness of a bullet/rifle?
2. Are there rifle suppressors?
3. Is that even necissary in a hunting application?
4. $350 or less=Stealth All-Terrain Rifle

[carnaby]

If I recall correctly, you may OWN a suppressor in Washington State, but you may NOT USE IT. That's pretty dumb. Anyway, they're super expensive, and if the ammo you use is supersonic, then you'll still have the uber loud crack from the sonic boom.

Basically, I just use earplugs / muffs, even when hunting. I have tinnitus (permanent ringing in the ears) and I don't want it to get worse, so I don't care if there's a 28 point buck in front of me, I'm not shooting without hearing protection.

[MCgunner]

Cannot use a suppressor in Texas. They're pretty worthless with rifle bullets anyway, though I guess they could save your ears some bang.

I think you have to register 'em as class three devices, $200 and a background check that takes about three or four months. Got a friend with a full auto M11 Cobray and a supressor. What a waste of money, but he likes it for some weird reason.

[waterhouse]

1. What factors contribute do the loudness of a bullet/rifle?

At the muzzle, the "loudness" is a factor of how much high pressure gas is escaping the barrel after the bullet leaves. Away from the end of the barrel, the speed of the bullet can make a difference, based on whether the bullet breaks the sound barrier. Suppressors work by expanding the time in which the gas has a chance to escape the barrel, and giving the gas a controlled area to expand into.

2. Are there rifle suppressors?

Yes. Jet, gem tech, SRT, Ops inc., SWR and others all make rifle cans. They not only reduce the noise but also act as great muzzle breaks, except withou directing all the noise at the guy next to you.

3. Is that even necissary in a hunting application?

In many states owning a suppressor is illegal. In many states that allow ownership of suppressors, hunting with them is illegal. Thousands of people hunt ever year without them, so they aren't neccesary at all. Sure would be nice though :)

4. $350 or less=Stealth All-Terrain Rifle
:confused:

[El Tejon]

4. A .22 with CBs.:)

[Newt]

A buddy of mine has an AR, and he was doing some checking into getting a suppressor for it. The place told him that it would be around $750.00 to get the suppressor. Then tack on the $200.00 class III tax = $950.00. They told him it would only reduce the sound level by 40 db. I don't know my decibel levels very well, but I found on a website that 60db's = sewing machine. That might put things in perspective a little bit.

[wdlsguy]

40 dB is 10,000x. Typical plugs or muffs reduce sound about 29 dB (794x).

Back in November I was shooting a couple of benches down from a sheriff's deputy who had a supressed AR-15. Sounded like a .22 rifle.

[HankB]

Some time ago I shot in a carbine match where one of the competitors had a suppressed AR15 - he was shooting the match without earplugs; even though he was using standard .223 ammo (which produced the ballistic signature of bullets traveling faster than sound) it wasn't loud at all.

Until his rifle jammed in the "housecleaning" part of the match and he transitioned to his .40 sidearm . . . loaded with CorBon ammo. And he was between plywood barricades that reflected the sound right back at him. (He finished the stage, too . . . wonder if the damage to his ears was worth it?)

[Meplat]

1. What factors contribute do the loudness of a bullet/rifle?
2. Are there rifle suppressors?

There are indeed. Nice to note the correct useage of the term, btw. "Suppressor" is the accurate parlance. They surely aren't going to "silence" any supersonic round from a rifle.

3. Is that even necissary in a hunting application?

Actually, they COULD be, if you were squirrel hunting with a rifle and didn't want to scare the critters around you into hiding with a .22 round, or hunting deer (MIGHT confuse them as to just what they were hearing long enough for you to get a shot off). OR might even come in handy when hunting in an area where it is safe to fire a rifle, but may still antagonize local homeowners who might or might not be predisposed to accept hunting with the boom of a rifle. All moot points, however, as you must attain Class III status to posess one, and most game departments would hold them to be illegal to hunt with.

4. $350 or less=Stealth All-Terrain Rifle

Sorry. Just AIN'T gonna happen. Unless you want to attain Class III status, and intend to ignore game laws.

[Vern Humphrey]

In Europe where suppressors are legal, the primary applications are in target shooting, or shooting pests like rats. In both cases, standard velocity (or sub-sonic) .22s are used. The main idea is not to upset the neighbors.

Rifles have three sources of sound. The first is the escape of gas at the muzzle (often referred to as a "thump" or "pop.") This is the noise suppressed by a suppressor. The second is the sonic wave generated by the bullet (often referred to as a "crack.") This cannot be suppressed, and will be percieved as coming from the closest point of approach of the bullet. The third is the operation of the action. In semi-automatic and automatic weapons this can be a serious source of noise, and such weapons are often equipped with a lock-out when suppressed, to prevent the action from functioning when used in the suppressed mode.

The Army teaches the "crack-thump" method of locating enemy fire. If someone is shooting at you, you shouldn't be fooled by the crack, but be alerted to listen for the thump -- which will tell you where the shooter is. In Viet Nam, we experimented with suppressed M16s, and these did seem successful in confusing the enemy -- but the maintenance and wear-out were such that they were not considered worthwhile.

You should be aware that you not only have to pay the transfer tax on the suppressor itself, but on each spare part you buy -- and since you will need a lot of them if you are shooting very much, that can run into real money.

[444]

Just for the sake of curiosity, how many people that posted a reply to this thread own or have owned a suppressor ?
How many have seen a suppressor fired on a rifle ?

Just interested.

[Vern Humphrey]

Just for the sake of curiosity, how many people that posted a reply to this thread own or have owned a suppressor ?
How many have seen a suppressor fired on a rifle ?

Just interested.

I've shot them in the military -- primarily the Sionics suppressor on the M16 and various suppressors on .22 pistols for use in tunnels. I really wasn't impressed.

[El Tejon]

Yes, to both.:D

[IV Troop]

I own and shoot suppressed guns on a regular basis. A suppressed 22 is a thing of beauty. I have used suppressed guns from 22s up to 300 win mags. It is simply what you are into.
I do find it interesting the comment about them being worthless on rifles. I have a very different perspective based on years of use.

To each their own.

[carnaby]

I do find it interesting the comment about them being worthless on rifles. I have a very different perspective based on years of use.
Would you care to elaborate on that? I have no experience with suppressors on anything. What about the sonic boom and all that? I guess it reduces the noise, making your other ear protection more effective. I find at the range that even with plugs and muffs, the sound is still somewhat uncomfortable. :confused: :mad: :)

[IV Troop]

I have carried a gun for a living for pretty much all of my adult life. Both Military and LE. In attending AAR (after action reviews) or AIR (after incident reviews) the primary thing that can almost always be improved on is communication. During the course of a fight it is very hard to communicate with another teammate, operator or whatever you label them when rounds are being fired. You can stand right next to someone and yell at them and very often not be able to hear what they are saying or communicate with them for a variety of reasons. Indoors with rifles is horrible.

Then there is the simple fact that when everyone on the good guys side is operating a suppressed gun and you hear unsuppressed fire it indicates a number of things that you should probably be concerned about.

That and the simple fact that suppressed guns greatly help protect against hearing damage.

Then there is the sniper end of it (I am also a sniper instructor). With a suppressed sniper rifle, even with sonic ammunition it is often difficult to tell where the sound signature came from or even judge the distance from which the shot came from. Muzzle signature is also reduced greatly.

The SR25s issued to DDMs (defensive designated marksmen) that are being used in Iraq are supplied with a suppressor just for the reasons stated above.

I have worked with some special operations groups that also use them on 300 win mag sniper rifles too.

On the pure fun side. Sitting around camp shooting spuds or pop cans with a suppressed 22 pistol is a very relaxing way to spend an afternoon without bothering anyone with noisy gunfire.

They have their uses but like I said to each their own.

[444]

The reason I asked how many had actually owned and/or fired a suppressed rifle is because most of the posts suggest that the posters never have.

"What about the sonic boom and all that? "
That is a HUGE issue on internet gun forums. In reality it isn't much of an issue at all. Yes, it exits, no it isn't much of an issue for a civilian sport shooter. I suppose it would be a somewhat bigger issue to a military sniper, but as noted above, it is better than no suppressor.
I recently commented on another thread about this. Let's say you fire a high velocity .22 LR round of ammo. Next you fire a "target" subsonic .22LR round of ammo. Do you notice a big difference in the report because of the sonic boom ?

"they're super expensive"
I own the best AR15 suppressor there is and it cost $550.

"They're pretty worthless with rifle bullets anyway"
:confused:

"The place told him that it would be around $750.00 to get the suppressor."
:what:

" They told him it would only reduce the sound level by 40 db. "
That would be remarkable. http://silencertests.com/reviews/list.pl?sortby=suppressed

"You should be aware that you not only have to pay the transfer tax on the suppressor itself, but on each spare part you buy -- and since you will need a lot of them if you are shooting very much, that can run into real money."
Modern suppressors don't need any spare parts. Frequently, the baffle stack is machined as one solid piece. If, somehow, you managed to wear out a rifle suppressor: most reputable companies will rebuild the suppressor for you at half the price of a new one. This however, isn't much of an issue. As I mentioned previously, my AR15 suppressor as an example is rated for unlimited full auto fire. I hardly think I am going to wear it out on an AR15.

[Zak Smith]

A suppressor on a rifle shooting full power ammunition reduces the volume perceived by the shooter not wearing earpro from "OH MY $%^ GOD THAT HURT... WHAT?" to "Hmm. That didn't hurt and it was quieter than I thought, but I might want to wear some mild earpro to protect my hearing if I'm going to pound rounds downrange".

With subsonic ammunition, they are very quiet.

For reference, I own JET 308 and Gemtech M4-96D (223/556) suppressors. I have additionally shot JET 50BMG, Gemtech 308, 5.56 AAC, and the OPS-INC 5.56 suppressors.

Most suppressors reduce report 18-35 dB, according to Silencertests.com. I cannot really tell the difference between the JET and supposedly much more suppressive TPR-S while shooting or spotting. Expect to pay $600 - 950 for a good centerfire rifle suppressor, plus the $200 tax.

-z

[carnaby]

What's the legality, aside from weather or not it is stupid to try, of home made suppressors?

With that, is it a stupid idea to think of making your own suppressor? Can you go and stick a dirt bike muffler on your gun? :p

[Zak Smith]

What's the legality, aside from weather or not it is stupid to try, of home made suppressors?

With that, is it a stupid idea to think of making your own suppressor? Can you go and stick a dirt bike muffler on your gun? :p
Check your state law. The federal form is the Form 1.

[carnaby]

Yeah, but if it is entirely homemade, does it fall under federal laws and all that? I thought you didn't have to do the NFA tax and registration thingy for homemade machine guns? Is that true?

[wdlsguy]

is it a stupid idea to think of making your own suppressor?

Not sure, but there's a thread on that subject (Homemade can... FORM 1) in the full-auto forum at ar15.com (http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=3&f=14).

[444]

"Yeah, but if it is entirely homemade, does it fall under federal laws and all that? I thought you didn't have to do the NFA tax and registration thingy for homemade machine guns? Is that true?"

Yes, it falls under federal law. You need to do a Form 1 and pay a $200 tax PRIOR to beginning construction.

[carnaby]

Really? What if your just making a "thingy" and it isn't even a suppressor yet. For example, what if I'm stitching together a teddy bear. Is it a suppressor? Do I have to pay a tax? I could shoot my gun through it, might suppress the sound a little, who knows.

What makes a suppressor a suppressor? Shouldn't you have to pay the tax before it's actually able to go on a gun and that's that? Argh! :mad: :)

[RyanM]

You don't need any forms to make a teddy bear, but you would need to pay a $200 tax, etc., to register said teddy bear, if you plan on sticking it on the end of a firearm.

Kind of like owning a pistol and a 2x4 at the same time. No licenses required to own them in that state, but if you want to duct tape the 2x4 to the pistol such that it forms a shoulder stock, you'll need to register the pistol frame as a short-barreled rifle.

Anyway, the sonic crack is only about as loud as a standard pressure .22. It's pretty noticable with high velocity .22s, since the sonic crack doubles the sound intensity. But with a gun that normally sounds like the hammer of Thor pounding on a metal bucket around your head, the sonic crack is not a major component of the noise made.

Suppressors could definitely be useful during hunting. You scare the animals less, you damage your hearing less, and you bother people living nearby less. Also, the reduction in muzzle blast can increase the long range accuracy a bit, especially with boattailed bullets.

[Meplat]

Just for the sake of curiosity, how many people that posted a reply to this thread own or have owned a suppressor ?
How many have seen a suppressor fired on a rifle ?

Just interested.

Owned one? No.

Seen a suppressor fired on a rifle? Yes. Fired suppressed rifles. All in full compliance with the legalities, officer. :)

[Byron Quick]

I got BATFE approval for mine a few months ago. The M4-02 for 5.56 mm. It takes regular 5.56 down to less than a .22 LR. On my .22 upper, you can really tell that most .22 ammo has poor quality control in the same lots. One round will have a crack. The next will be like a pellet gun. The next all you can hear is the bolt cycling. Then a crack.

It doesn't really have a significant place in hunting except to preserve hunters' ears and to provide peace to any neighbors. The game departments' fears about poaching and such simply display their ignorance of the subject.

I enjoy playing around with mine. No, it's not a matter of need, folks. I would own a maximum of five firearms if it was a matter of need. Where's the fun in that? It's a matter of want.

Oh, yeah. That price listed earlier is too high. There are good units available for much less than that.

[waterhouse]

Just for the sake of curiosity, how many people that posted a reply to this thread own or have owned a suppressor ?
How many have seen a suppressor fired on a rifle ?

Just interested.

Yes to both. I've fired one on a .308 bolt gun and (thanks mostly to 444's posts indicating that it wasn't really all that hard to do if your state allows it) recently cleared paperwork for my .45 can.

[Beren]

I rate my Gemtech M4-96D as one of the best purchases I've made. Granted, I bought mine as a used demo, but it's still in top condition. It really makes extended range sessions gentler on the ears. This is important for me, as I already have some ringing in the ears from earlier youthful indiscretions.

No, it will not make an AR-15 silent. It /will/ make it sound very similar to a .22LR, and that was my goal.

.22LR suppressors are even more impressive. Check with Correia, he can get you a great price on a Tac can. Alternatively, you can check with Henry over at Title II. I just bought a demo Gemtech Trinity (9mm) off him last month. (I know, it won't suppress as well as an Evo-9 - but it was available and will do what I want.)

Before I'm done, I'll have cans for .45ACP and .22LR to go with my 5.56mm and 9mm cans. I may add a second or third 5.56mm can, too! (Yes, I am sick.) Or a .308 can. Or a 6.8mm SPC can. Or or or....

Modern suppressors are far superior to what was available 20-30 years ago. You wouldn't judge a modern computer by a Vic-20, would you?

Anyway:

If your state allows the use of suppressors while hunting, I recommend giving it a try. You'll bother less people.

[Skoghund]

Used my BRNO .22 with a silencer for years when i lived in England. You have to use subsonics then the only sound you hear is the click of the bolt and the thud when the bullet hits the rabbit. I once shot a running boar competition with the silencer on the rifle. Most strange when you use ear protection as you hear no sound, feel no recoil and you think that the gun has not fired. silencers are becoming very popular on full bore hunting rifles as well in England.

[Correia]

I'm with 444 on this one. So much nonsense is passed around about suppresors online that it is just absurd. For the record, I'm an SOT. (which means I can buy, sell, and make legal suppresors).

Suppresors run from around mid $200s to over $1000 depending on what you are getting. .22 cans are very affordable. I like the Tactical Innovations cans for the money and the performance.

Centerfire rifle cans cost more, but a good .223 with 31 db of reduction runs only $375. (also Tac Inv). To put this in perspective, that sonic boom is more of a loud CHUFF noise than anything. I can stand five feet away from a guy using one and carry on a normal conversation. I still wear ear plugs when I use one, because the shooter is right next the action, and hearing damage is permenant and cumulative. But even then, if using a gun in an environment where I was going to shoot it with out hearing protection, I would much much much rather have one with a can on it.

Cans also range up into the higher prices, and then you are paying for features and performance. Some cans are drastically overpriced, and one well advertised one that I'm aware of (but won't name) should be sued for false advertising for calling their can a "suppresor". :) OpsInc and Advanced Armament make my favorite nice cans. I have less experience with Gem-Tech, but they have an excellent rep.

.30 cal cans usually cost more, and tend to start in the high $500 range.

And Vern, they have gotten a little bit better since Vietnam. :p

[Zak Smith]

Here are some suppressor videos with audio

http://www.coloradomultigun.com/misc/169_6939_mvi.avi
http://www.alansamuel.com/movies/sup1.mov
http://www.jetsuppressors.com/

[Newt]

Just for the sake of curiosity, how many people that posted a reply to this thread own or have owned a suppressor ?
How many have seen a suppressor fired on a rifle ?

Just interested.

No to the first one. Yes to the second.

So you folks think that the 750 price that was quoted to my buddy was a little on the high end then huh? AFAIK, the place where he got the quote was the only Class III dealer in the area. Any other suggestions?

[Newt]

On another note...

Where could one go to find out the legalities of hunting with a suppressor? I'd be very interested in getting one on a .22 if it were legal.

[Correia]

On the price, it really depends on the brand/features. For some brands $750 is very reasonable. You pay more for stuff like quick on and off, better performance, that kind of thing. For a .22 can, that is getting really really high. Like I said, excellent .22 cans are available in the 200s.

For hunting with a can, call your local Fish & Game folks. Some places allow it, others do not. Some states don't allow it for season/tag hunting, but allow it for varmits.

[asknight]

A buddy of mine has an AR, and he was doing some checking into getting a suppressor for it. The place told him that it would be around $750.00 to get the suppressor. Then tack on the $200.00 class III tax = $950.00. They told him it would only reduce the sound level by 40 db. I don't know my decibel levels very well, but I found on a website that 60db's = sewing machine. That might put things in perspective a little bit.

A 3dB reduction effectively cuts the noise in half. In other words, 143dB "sounds" twice as loud as 140dB. A 40dB reduction is very significant considering that a .223 is around 155dB without a suppressor. When you cut it down to 115dB, it starts sounding like a pellet rifle or a .22 short.

[444]

"AFAIK, the place where he got the quote was the only Class III dealer in the area. Any other suggestions?"

We have a number of TitleII dealers here locally but all charge suggested retail price. The first two suppressors I bought, I paid full suggested retail price. Then I discovered that you can buy NFA stuff just like any other gun. You can find good prices on-line and just have your local dealer do a transfer. So, I have been buying stuff from Henry at TitleII. It takes far longer to get the stuff, but there is a huge difference in price. I found him in the AR15.com, equipment exchange, NFA board.
Bottom line: see if your local dealer will do a transfer for a reasonable fee. You can do everything else yourself: location of the merchandise, buying the merchandise, the paperwork. All the dealer has to do is accept the transfer, store the merchandise while you are waiting for the tax stamp, and of course running it through his books.

[pete f]

This is really one of the areas after CCW that i wish our leglislative efforts would be. After traveling last summer to my cousins in sweden and holland, i saw several times where legal use of a suppressor would make much sense here... especially in densely crowded areas where big game cartridges would severly upset the new neighbors of a shooting range.

My father lives in florida and has a P22 with a can on it that I bought for him, they had a huge problem with varmints shredding flowers and fruit trees and he was always wary of shooting with people about. now he goes out at 6 am and plinks them out of the trees. The can we bought sometimes prevents the action from cycling but all you hear is click rattle thud. the rattle being the partial cycling of the action. i have thought about haveing the old remington .22 rifle threaded for the same can as his eyes are going a bit and the scope and the downward angle of him shooting from the balcony would make me more comfy.

I have good friend who lets me play with his mini uzi and suppressor on occaison and i will tell you, there really is not much more fun that can be had standing up clothed than letting loose with that toy.

[mp510]

Used my BRNO .22 with a silencer for years when i lived in England. You have to use subsonics then the only sound you hear is the click of the bolt and the thud when the bullet hits the rabbit. I once shot a running boar competition with the silencer on the rifle. Most strange when you use ear protection as you hear no sound, feel no recoil and you think that the gun has not fired. silencers are becoming very popular on full bore hunting rifles as well in England.
From what I have seen on British websites, they also have athing for putting them onto pellet rifles as well.

[Carl N. Brown]

The American legal assumption is that a hunting rifle with suppressor
would be used for poaching.
The Finnish legal assumption is that a hunting rifle with supressor
would be used for preserving the hunter's hearing.

In Virginia, transporting a gun in the trunk of a car is concealment
and illegal; good guys carry the gun openly in the passenger compartment.
In Tennessee, carrying a gun openly in the passenger compartment
is "going armed" and good guys transport their guns locked in the trunk.

Too bad the "reasonable person" mentioned in the self-defense laws
is not writing the laws.

[waterhouse]

So, I have been buying stuff from Henry at TitleII.

Great guy to deal with. It did add about a month to the process while the tax free dealer to dealer paperwork cleared (I forget which form this was) but Henry gave me a great price and was very nice in explaining (slowly) to this suppressor newbie all of the steps I needed to complete. If you are in the market it is certainly worth giving him a call.

[Terrierman]

The American legal assumption is that a hunting rifle with suppressor
would be used for poaching.
The Finnish legal assumption is that a hunting rifle with supressor
would be used for preserving the hunter's hearing.

In Virginia, transporting a gun in the trunk of a car is concealment
and illegal; good guys carry the gun openly in the passenger compartment.
In Tennessee, carrying a gun openly in the passenger compartment
is "going armed" and good guys transport their guns locked in the trunk.

Too bad the "reasonable person" mentioned in the self-defense laws
is not writing the laws.

Boy Howdy!!

[Skoghund]

The silencers that we used on the .22 in Englad are made by Parker Hale. I think they cost about 15 pounds. Many .22 rifles come prethreaded for a silencer.
If you want to use the silencer on an air rifle you can buy them licence free. If you want to put the silencer on a .22 you have to get it on the firearms licence. The police authorities look kinder on silencers for full bore rifles now than in the past.

[johnnyrebel]

You don't need any forms to make a teddy bear, but you would need to pay a $200 tax, etc., to register said teddy bear, if you plan on sticking it on the end of a firearm.

Kind of like owning a pistol and a 2x4 at the same time. No licenses required to own them in that state, but if you want to duct tape the 2x4 to the pistol such that it forms a shoulder stock, you'll need to register the pistol frame as a short-barreled rifle.


actually any suppressor is concidered a nfa item and is required to be registered on form 1 3 or 4 to manufacture your own you must submit a form 1 with a 200 tax to start manufacture and you can only start manufacture after your form 1 has been approved..as far as registering and manufacturing a machine gun you cannot since may of 86 thanks to congress unless you are a 007 manufacturer paying a sot and itar fees and taxes

[444]

"Really? What if your just making a "thingy" and it isn't even a suppressor yet. For example, what if I'm stitching together a teddy bear. Is it a suppressor? Do I have to pay a tax? I could shoot my gun through it, might suppress the sound a little, who knows."

I know you are just curious and just asking questions to educate yourself. But, I can't resist giving you a warning.
The ATF are not the people to screw with. Trying to get them on a technicality or name game or something is like poking a sleeping tiger with a stick. You do NOT want to lock horns with these guys. They will kick in your doors, shoot your dog or your family, burn down your house etc. You probably think I am kidding. I assure you that I am not: they have done it very publically on live TV and got away with it. Paying $200 for a tax stamp is nothing compared to the grief these guys will cause you. If you don't know what I am talking about, do a search for a guy named Randy Weaver. All that and more was done to him, his family, his dog, and his house by federal agents for an alleged violation of the National Firearms Act of 1934, specifically they charged him with manufacturing a short barreled shotgun without a tax stamp. This is the same law you are talking about screwing around with.
Yes, members of his family were shot and killed because he didn't pay a $200 tax.