Colts and Winning the West

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35227&stc=1&d=1139405032
This .41 Colt was used in two street duels in Waco, Texas in 1898- (attached Story). The .44-40 below was carried by one of the Davis Brothers- deceased in the fight with Judge Gerald.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35228&stc=1&d=1139405060
It seems debatable about when the West was really won. If the tendency of people to get pissed off and shoot at each other is the criteria, then it never was. If the persistance of saloons and bordellos is important, then it lasted until 1917. If the proliferation of churches , dispossession of the tribes and general destruction of the landscape counts, the 1870s would be a good guess.
By the late 1880's Austin, Texas had electric arc-light towards on the capitol square, there was a system of inter-urban rail roads that would let you take day trips from austin, to waco, to dallas/ft worth or san-antonio. You could jump a train in Langtry, ride into El Paso, get drunk and die just like Judge Roy Bean. In the 1890s, the major cities had telephone exchanges and Waco, had electric street cars covering much of the city. By 1896, there were about 10,000 automobiles in North America- but the roads sucked.

In 1890, the United States Congress declared that the Frontier was officially settled. The Cimmaron Strip had just been opened and Oklahoma was filling up with people. Dr. William Crosthwaite officed in Waco, regularly traveled to the north-east for medical conferences and advanced schooling. In the late 1890s, his train stopped in Atoka, Oklahoma where several US Marshalls and Revenue agents had come into town to chase down the Red Watson gang. The gang duely rode into town and shot the place up. Shortly thereafter, the law enforcement people went home.

Thanks Mec! Ya know, that seems a better way to settle things than we got today. Why, "Talk real mean" to someone these days they'll likely break down and cry!

Mec, Interesting but it seems that things have not changed much in the east , south , north or west.:) Mike

I generally think that the west was "won" when the indians wars were won and the railroads had reliably connected the coasts. By then, the long cattle drives (that made the "cowboy" into the modern legend) were over and it was possible to travel in relative comfort and safety. The first transcontinental railroad was connected in 1869 (the famous "Golden Spike" event at Promontory Point, Utah). Several more railway routes were completed in 1882 and 1883. The last cattle drive to Dodge City was in 1886. The endpoint of the Indian Wars is generally considered to be the Wounded Knee Massacre in 1890.

Thus, the "wild west" as we know it from movies, TV and storybooks really only lasted 20-25 years, at the most. Essentially, it was the period from end of the civil war (1865) until the late 1880s or perhaps 1890. By the 1890s, the west was divided up into ranches, cities and towns were thriving everywhere, the telegraph made communications quick and reliable, and travel between them was for the most part safe.

The .41 Colt was favored by Billy the Kid as well......

One of my favorites of the last cowboys was Pancho Villa. He was chased all over this country and his for many years by our government. They even used armored cars that were built for use in the 1st world war, hot air balloons and planes but they never did catch him.
Don't know what guns they used but the idea that cowboys never used revolvers or had them on when riding there horses is not true at all . I have many photographs of Pancho and his men riding horses with there revolvers on as well as other cowboys and I don't believe they were staged or prop guns as some seem to believe.Here is a picture of him with part of his army.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/Beartracker/Pancho%20Villa/Panchoandfriends.jpg

The only way he was stopped was because he was assassinated in 1923.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/Beartracker/Pancho%20Villa/deadpancho.jpg

I love that Song by Willie Nelson, Pancho & Lefty but I never realised it was about Pancho Villa. There is a young Gentleman near my place that is a great grandson purportedly of Villa. Only reason I even heard about it , he bought one of my horse trailers.

Boy! Makes me want a sombrero, some bandeleros and cartouches! Don't speak meskin but i eat it a lot, picked up three word.

One time the government sent up an airplane looking for Pancho. The pilot found a small fort with an American flag on it so he landed the plane to talk to whoever was there ....It was pancho and his boy's,:) They had heard that our government was going to try to find him with a plane so he hung up our flag. They took the pilot prisoner and used the plane to spy on us!
Another time they were after Pancho with some army troops and pancho followed them in the dust for a while. Then he went right up to the general and ask him what they were doing. When they said they were looking for Pancho Villa he told them that he has not been in that territory for years. The army went back home.

One time the government sent up an airplane looking for Pancho. The pilot found a small fort with an American flag on it so he landed the plane to talk to whoever was there ....It was pancho and his boy's,:) They had heard that our government was going to try to find him with a plane so he hung up our flag. They took the pilot prisoner and used the plane to spy on us!
Another time they were after Pancho with some army troops and pancho followed them in the dust for a while. Then he went right up to the general and ask him what they were doing. When they said they were looking for Pancho Villa he told them that he has not been in that territory for years. The army went back home.


Yep! That woulda done it! A simple shooter they mighta let go, mebbe lock up a few years. Make FOOLS of 'em? They gonna KILL you!

i saw something on the history channel , about George Patton being after Pancho .. it said Patton always carried a colt 45 revolver , and he shot one of Panchos men off a running horse with it . Patton never would axcept the colt 1911 automatic as his side arm .. he stayed with his trusty colt peace maker through ww2 . you might say with Patton it won more than the west , he carried it across the big pond .

One of my favorites of the last cowboys was Pancho Villa. He was chased all over this country and his for many years by our government. They even used armored cars that were built for use in the 1st world war, hot air balloons and planes but they never did catch him.
Don't know what guns they used but the idea that cowboys never used revolvers or had them on when riding there horses is not true at all . I have many photographs of Pancho and his men riding horses with there revolvers on as well as other cowboys and I don't believe they were staged or prop guns as some seem to believe.Here is a picture of him with part of his army.
Pancho and his gang were bandits. If by "cowboys" you mean anybody that rode horses prior to 1900, then these guys qualify. I think when people say the average cowboy didn't carry a pistol, they are refering to guys who earned their living working with cattle.

SixForSure, I may be wrong here but from what I have read and the pictures I have and have seen the cowboys did indeed carry there revolvers. Are you saying that cowboys who rode the range watching over cattle and working fences never wore there revolvers? For what reason would that be? If my job was to spend days riding the fence on a ranch that stretched for miles and miles and stayed out there for weeks at a time. I'm not about to depend on my rifle only when it's hanging in a scabbard on my horse and I'm repairing fence 100 yards down the line from my horse in a country that had many Wolves ,Bear, snakes, Rustlers and Indians not to mention the drifter who would kill you for your boots, grub,money and horse.
Yes , I do consider bandits cowboys and many of them were at one time or another. Many cowboy had his shootout when he hit a town on a cattle drive and got a little drunk. That doesn't make him a bandit in my book. Just an old fashioned red neck just like the ones we still have around here on Sat. night.:D Mike

Pancho and his gang were bandits. If by "cowboys" you mean anybody that rode horses prior to 1900, then these guys qualify. I think when people say the average cowboy didn't carry a pistol, they are refering to guys who earned their living working with cattle.

My thoughts precisely.

SixForSure, I may be wrong here but from what I have read and the pictures I have and have seen the cowboys did indeed carry there revolvers. Are you saying that cowboys who rode the range watching over cattle and working fences never wore there revolvers? For what reason would that be? If my job was to spend days riding the fence on a ranch that stretched for miles and miles and stayed out there for weeks at a time. I'm not about to depend on my rifle only when it's hanging in a scabbard on my horse and I'm repairing fence 100 yards down the line from my horse in a country that had many Wolves ,Bear, snakes, Rustlers and Indians not to mention the drifter who would kill you for your boots, grub,money and horse.
Yes , I do consider bandits cowboys and many of them were at one time or another. Many cowboy had his shootout when he hit a town on a cattle drive and got a little drunk. That doesn't make him a bandit in my book. Just an old fashioned red neck just like the ones we still have around here on Sat. night.:D Mike

There were times, I'm sure, when a guy riding fences wanted a sidearm, but his rifle was a lot more useful in a fight. I don't think too many would wanna carry while they were actually working cattle. The cattle drives, of course they had arms with 'em. But, home, on the ranch, at round-up or something? Nah, I can't imagine many wanted a sidearm in the way.

No, I didn't say they never wore them, or that none of them had them. I said the average cowboy, as in the majority. There are exceptions to everything. The average burger flipper a McD's doesn't have an MBA, the average Californian doesn't have a CCW permit, the average politician is a crook (o.k., maybe no exceptions to that one). Cost was a big issue. Cowboys didn't make much, and handguns were expensive.

Elmer Keith said the cowboys in montana carried revolvers as much to shoot unruly stock as anything else. He mentioned getting stirrup drug by a horse as an example and employing the revolver in lue of breaks

Yep, I agree with you there. Not many of them could afford the side arms and I agree that they probably didn't carry them around the ranch.
I agree with you about the McDonald burger flippers not having PH D's but I know a few you got there PH D's by working there and going to school. The sad part is I can also introduce you to a few people with PH D's who are not capable of learning such a task:neener: Just Kidding!, Mike

Mec, Now that's a good reason to never ride around without a sixgun! Mike

PhD. That stands for Piled Higher and Deeper, right?:D

PhD. That stands for Piled Higher and Deeper, right?:D

Well, we all know what BS stands for. :)

LoL,:D

Mec,

I think I have only got 55 pages read and Elmer has shot 3 horses through the ass to break their backs and stay alive, one when the gunbelt was way up under his armpits. G**damn, can you imagine getting your a** dragged by a horse, beating you along the ground, and having the sense to draw your hawgleg and kill the sumbitch?

Way the hell tougher than the average person today. Weren't they all?
Had a book once about a farmer before the Revolutionary War who had a competition with someone, who could scythe the most hay in a day. Over an acre of nicely cut hay, all in what we would call windrows, today.

I used a scythe 50 years ago, could cut the lawn as well as a rotary mower, but not as fast.

Cheers,

George

Ah, I gotta go on.

They weren't as unusual as you guys seem to have been given to believe.

Have you been reading Belisarius, the guy who said there were NO guns before 1900?

All them cowboys carried handguns, mebbe not in a holster and cartridge belt, but they had them, ala Kieth.

You could not get a scabbarded rifle into action if you needed it. So, what did you do? You had a pistol in a side pocket, or a holster, were you on a horse.

And, did a new rifle cost more than a used pistol, if you think they were too poor to buy one or the other?

Cheers,

George

Ever heard that saying," The things you see when you don't have a gun" ? Well, I think that phenomenon was recognized by the cowboys. They needed one of some kind to shoot wolves, coyotes, mountain lions, et al. I don't suppose they all carried buscadero rigs holding peacemakers like Hollywood depicts but I'd bet they all had a firearm of some type on them or at least with them.

Steve

Steve,

Heard it often, usually when I go somewhere I haven't been for a while. Just kiddin'. I HOPE they were just kiddin'.

The other saying is "You never need a gun till you REALLY need a gun!"

Cheers,

George

I like the saying, and at my place the truth.
"I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it." and so would those guys punching cows.

I'm sure a lot had them, but a lot of the pictures you see are Studio pictures on a Sat night or a day in town and of course where the pistol is positioned on the belt in the photos are NOT where they were carried on horseback. most were carried cross draw and further back(ahorse) so you didn't hang up on anything Right or left handed, And I'd just bet some sort of loop or thong of leather to keep the shooter in the holster too(like we do today). I have seen some old pictures taken on the range and the few I've seen, the cowboy had his shooter on.

One I had a copy of was called a broncy morning, showed this bronc humped in the air already three twists in the rope and a cowboy holding on, he had his shooter on.

OD,

A thong to keep it in the holster, a sheath that held it on your belt, and a thong tied around the thigh to keep it from flopping all over the place, or riding up to your armpits, did you get thrown and drug, again, like Kieth said about 1 dragging.

Man, get "Hell, I Was There", he was one tough hombre, and I think everything he wrote, someone would back up. His pistols got him out of a lot of scrapes when he had no access to his rifles. For horses, you got your 300 magnum in a scabbard, the horse tosses you most of the way off, only your foot in the stirrup, runs off through the woods, bangin' you from tree to tree and log to log, you either pray the next tree kills you or you can reach your pistol and kill the sumbitch.

There went a horse, but there were more of them around. Just go out and ketch and break another one.

More handguns in this country, then, per capita, than there are now, with 10 times as many people. And working guns, not show or stick 'em in the safe guns.

Cheers,

George

you might say with Patton it won more than the west , he carried it across the big pond .

He was wearing it when he was in on the slaughter of WWI vets during the Bonus Army march as well. Good days and bad for Patton.

Patton ..was never my hero .. he was aful free with the lives of the troops that followed him . some what of a war lord , born to kill . I`m more into the reading of the mountain man era .. alot of them were natural born priates / turned mountain man for need to suvorive . they carved a huge path through this country in the 4 years of their hay day . The cowboy era didn`t start untill after the end of the civil war , which explains the start of the hand gun being the wepon of choice , many bought their side arms upon discharge for a few bucks taken out of their pay . thus the out law gun fighter is born .