" I need your gun...."


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Redlg155
April 12, 2003, 09:29 PM
While eating at the the Golden Corral today a strange thought crossed my mind.

Here is the scenario...

You are eating in a restaraunt and when all of a sudden an armed person or persons come into the restaraunt with the intent of taking some hostages. During this time period a police officer who is either unarmed or armed with something like a Kel Tec P32 looks over and sees that you have your carry weapon drawn behind cover, in my case a HK USP .45 C..definitely bigger than a P32! :D . He then asks for your weapon....

My question is this, would you surrender your weapon?

I don't think I would.

Good Shooting
Red

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OF
April 12, 2003, 09:37 PM
No.

- Gabe

Stevie-Ray
April 12, 2003, 09:38 PM
Not a chance. He should have come better prepared.

Blackhawk
April 12, 2003, 10:02 PM
No, but he can commandeer my car.... :D

Greg L
April 12, 2003, 10:07 PM
It would be something along the lines of http://users.pandora.be/eforum/emoticons4u/obscene/eck13.gif (yes, yes I know it isn't THR, however in that situation I wouldn't be too concerned with his hurt feelings).

I can see no real good reason to draw attention to ourselves by passing a pistol back and forth.

Greg

CleverNickname
April 12, 2003, 10:14 PM
Not only no, but :cuss: no.

If he's in uniform, why doesn't he have a weapon? If he's in plainclothes/offduty, he should still have a weapon, but I'm also not going to take the time to verify that he is in fact a police officer. Just 'cause I see somebody in plainclothes flash a badge doesn't mean he's an LEO. If I have my weapon out, it means I'm in fear of my life and have more important things on my mind, thankyouverymuch.

Plus, how do I know he's familiar with my weapon? What liability will I incur if he uses it? Way too many downsides, and from what I can see, absolutely no upsides.

Kobun
April 12, 2003, 10:19 PM
I'd hand him my G26 BUG. :D

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=43854

TallPine
April 12, 2003, 10:25 PM
While eating at the the Golden Corral today a strange thought crossed my mind.

:rolleyes:

Preacherman
April 12, 2003, 10:43 PM
(Adopts best Preacherman tone of voice)... "Brother, it is better to give than to receive - so for the good of your soul, and the good of my body, I'm keeping it!!!" :evil:

cool45auto
April 12, 2003, 10:56 PM
Well now, let's think about this. What could happen to you later if you said no. If you end up saving the day you're a hero, if it goes bad the story about not giving your gun to an officer that could have saved the day comes out. If the latter happened what would your fate be?

atek3
April 12, 2003, 11:17 PM
No. 90% of my friends can outshoot 90% of the police, 90% of the time. YMMV

atek3

spacemanspiff
April 12, 2003, 11:17 PM
can you guarantee that in the latter situation, the LEO would have prevailed over the attackers? there are too many variables in any situation to say one way or another how things would turn out. maybe he isnt a good shooter. maybe the reason he is unarmed is that he has a tough time qualifying with his issue weapon.

CB900F
April 12, 2003, 11:22 PM
OK, let's think about it. As a previous poster mentioned, what are the chances he knows the manual of arms on your gun? If it's a Beretta, Smith, or Glock, pretty good. However, what if your gun is a Radom, Kareen, or other semi-exotic. For that matter, very few departments or agencies issue the H&K, which is what I also carry.

Then, suppose he doesn't 'save the day'? Where does that leave you, besides hangin' out B-A naked without your gun? Possibly dead. Cold comfort that you tried to be a good guy. At the very least, your insurance agent will be deeply disappointed. Are you your brother's keeper? Are you responsible for his lack? Seems to me that certain segments of our society are trying to stipulate that the LEO is my keeper. I don't believe in helping that thinking along.

Besides, the original poster stated that he has his very own mouse gun. The guy's just envious 'cause I got a rat-smasher!
Snrk! 900F

Chipperman
April 12, 2003, 11:24 PM
What if the officer dies in the shootout? They find him dead with Your gun in his hand. I don't think that would go over any better in our strange court rooms.

No way I'd give up my gun. Maybe I'd pass him one of my knives. :D

firestar
April 12, 2003, 11:25 PM
Most of the time all I carry is a Kel-Tec P-32 so I guess he could have it in that situation. Maybe he could jump up with two guns blazing like in the movies and do a slow motion charge at the hostage taker all the while doing a ultra low-pitched "orrrrrrooww".:neener:


While he is doing that, I will be throwing a Golden Coral chair through a Golden Coral window and saving my own butt. If that hostage is not me, then I don't really care. I would take a pot shot at a guy like that but I am not going to get smoked for some 300lb buffet queen.:D That is what the cops are for anyway. My gun is to protect me and mine, not to protect every dumb%#T at happens to get taken hostage. Should have been watching your back sucker.

Redlg155
April 12, 2003, 11:32 PM
maybe the reason he is unarmed is that he has a tough time qualifying with his issue weapon.

Or perhaps that he could care less about carrying off duty, even though his department may require him to do so. All of us know there are officers out there who could care less about carrying a gun.

As Cool9mm pointed out..
Well now, let's think about this. What could happen to you later if you said no.

Does anyone know the legal aspects of this? If an officer orders you to surrender your weapon or other personal property for emergency use, could you be charged for not complying?

Good SHooting
RED

atek3
April 12, 2003, 11:39 PM
If an officer orders you to surrender your weapon or other personal property for emergency use, could you be charged for not complying?

Only in a socialist commonwealth. I'm sorry but nothing gives a cop the right to compel you to give them any of your property unless you've committed a crime. Peace officers are peace officers not omnipotent gods.

atek3

Greg L
April 12, 2003, 11:45 PM
Does anyone know the legal aspects of this? If an officer orders you to surrender your weapon or other personal property for emergency use, could you be charged for not complying?

I'm getting a mental image of Judge in Beverly Hills Cop standing up with his badge in hand here. Sorry, I'll stick with me and mine bringing a gun to a gun fight (although I do own and carry on occasion a P-32). If Mr. BG starts something with the underarmed policeman, it will just give me an opening to give him a 230 grain lobotomy.

I still say it would be bad news to be caught sliding pistols back and forth across the floor in this situation.

Greg

spacemanspiff
April 12, 2003, 11:50 PM
i'd take the risk of being charged with non-compliance.

however, how about a twist to the situation being discussed. i don't want to hijack this thread too much though.

in such a situation, i would be scanning everyone else to see if there were 'sleeper' agents, other people that might be allies, or a plainclothes officer. how would you communicate with others that you intend to take a course of action?
i figure it would be best to silently display my concealed handgun permit to anyone i have made eye contact with that i believe to be an ally, another permit holder would recognize it immediately.

Greg L
April 12, 2003, 11:58 PM
Spaceman,

Is your CHP that much different than a driver's license? I doubt if I could, in that high stress situation, tell the difference between the two from 25 feet with a quick flash (knowing of course that any quick movements are probably going to get you unwanted attention from the BG's).

Greg

Tamara
April 13, 2003, 12:22 AM
" I need your gun...."

"Sure, as soon as I'm done with it." :D

spacemanspiff
April 13, 2003, 12:26 AM
very different. drivers licenses are light gray with clear laminate half inch all around, CHP is white with green. when i qualified, the instructor told the class that as of then, just over 75,000 permits had been issued. considering that half my states population lives in Anchorage, Fairbanks, and Juneau, the rest living in rural areas, towns, and villages where if a person carries, they carry open and never need to conceal it, that 75,000 is living in the three largest cities in Alaska.
statistically speaking, that means that one in 4.7 who live in anchorage, fairbanks, juneau have a CHP. whether or not they all carry every day, then its probably down to 1 in 20.

Ala Dan
April 13, 2003, 01:54 AM
No sir, at least not my primary weapon!:uhoh:

You see, I always carry a back-up weapon; not to
be confused with a "throw down", but a decent, really
reliable second firearm. Now, if our "buddy" the police
officer identified himself as such to my satisfaction; then
and only then, I would lend him/her my second gun.


Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

LiquidTension
April 13, 2003, 03:29 AM
Absolutely NOT.

Why: well, same reason I carry in my bank even though they have an illegal sign saying I'm not allowed to. I trust MY judgement and MY aim and MY ability to respond under pressure (that I have experienced before) far more than I trust some guy with a gun and a badge on a power trip. This seems extreme, but before you hand over your weapon to someone else you must consider all possibilities, and there are just too many LEOs that shouldn't have a badge. Think of the outcome if the officer screws up with YOUR weapon.

I know that not all cops are bad, but I'm not handing my weapon to anyone that I don't trust with my life - after all, when you give up your weapon, your life is exactly what you're handing them.

Pendragon
April 13, 2003, 05:54 AM
Surely the least prepared cops would be the most likely to know how to use any random gun better than anyone else :rolleyes:

No way would that be a good idea - they dont know your sights, your ammo, your trigger, etc.

Even best case scenario, using an unknown gun is a wild card.

Wildalaska
April 13, 2003, 06:00 AM
just over 75,000 permits had been issued. considering that half my states population lives in Anchorage, Fairbanks, and Juneau, the rest living in rural areas, towns, and villages where if a person carries, they carry open and never need to conceal it, that 75,000 is living in the three largest cities in Alaska.

Spiff I was informed that its like 90,000 permits...which means one in every 7 persons in the stae has a permit.

Also, its still legal to carry in ones car without a permit. I had a cop estimate for me that about 1 in every four cars had a gun in it.

By the way, you have to tell a cop you have contact with that you have a gun. So in Alaska, if the cop asks you for it you have to give it to him.

WildniceplacehuhAlaska

telewinz
April 13, 2003, 06:58 AM
Taking the long view, I'd trade weapons and then back him up with the P-32. Let him fill-out all the paperwork.

spacemanspiff
April 13, 2003, 08:11 AM
alright, lets see how my math is....

2002 alaska population, according to census bureau: 643,786.
2000 anchorage population (couldnt find 2002 info): 260,283
2000 fairbanks population: 82,840
2000 juneau population: 30,711

combined largest city populations: 373,834.
dividing 90,000 permit holders into that amount equals 1 in 4 approximately.
and like wildalaska said, the entire states population lowers that to 1 in 7.

now consider the fact that in rural villages, towns, etc, its a fair assessment that all households have at least one gun, more like many guns, mostly rifles and shotguns though.

we can break this down by age, according to this data from the census (http://146.63.75.50/research/pop/00ars.pdf) , and estimate that approximately 220,000 are under the age of 21. so lets say 430,000 are truly eligible for CHP. so throughout the state, one in 5 adults has a CHP.

stevelyn
April 13, 2003, 09:25 AM
By the way, you have to tell a cop you have contact with that you have a gun. So in AK if the cop asks you for your gun you have to give it to him.

A little clarification. The requirement to advise a policeman you are armed applies only in a situation where you are stopped on a traffic stop or approached and questioned as a potential suspect in an enforcement action. At such time you have to show your AK CHL to the contact officer along w/ supporting ID (drivers license) and inform the officer as to whether or not you are armed and the location of weapon. The officer should inform you how to proceed further. Options may include handing over your gun for the duration of contact.
The requirement to advise does not include casual contact in a public place or in the senario of this thread.
Under Alaska Statute (not sure which title at the moment) state troopers and municiple police (and it might read "peace officers" to include VPSOs) are authorized under certain circumstances to deputize armed citizens to assist with carrying out their duties. This occurs quite often in rural AK. Citizen refusal to participate could lead to charges on the citizen, although I don't personally have knowledge of such charges being filed.
Now to answer the main question of this thread; Absolutely not! The off duty policeman should be better prepared for an armed confrontation. However that being said, as an armed and responsible citizen, you should be willing to assist that officer in anyway necessary including an immediate action plan to neutralize the situation and minimize the risk of injury to others in the area. It's your community and safety too. The only difference between a policeman and a citizen is the policeman is authorized by the citizenry at large to respond to criminal activity, and the citizen has broader powers of arrest.

I would personally like to see those numbers go to 100,000+. That would put AK CHLs easily in 1/6 of the population at large. I would also like to encourage the AK legislature to enact a resolution similar or identical to the recent action taken by the Montana legislature promoting and recognizing the value of an armed, vigilent citizenry in the fight against and prevention of terror attacks.

Marko Kloos
April 13, 2003, 09:47 AM
I would never give up my primary sidearm to anyone voluntarily. He could have my BUG, though.

benewton
April 13, 2003, 03:46 PM
In a word, NO!

According the the current PC view, this idiot is supposed to protect me, and he's already shown up at a gunfight unarmed, or poorly armed. Thus, it's fairly clear that I'm on my own already.

Then, the comments regarding strange weapons and so forth are also correct, and there is, after all, a reason that one sights in one's own weapon.

As for after effects, you must first live through the mess, then you'll have to deal with the rest.

cobb
April 13, 2003, 04:58 PM
No, I would not give it up, I wear to protect #1 and family first, then others. As mentioned before by others, I can shoot much better than most officers out there, especially with my 1911.

Kharn
April 13, 2003, 05:04 PM
Shouldnt the proper response be to pass the officer your BUG, and tell him to cover you while you make a run for your rifle (if possible)?

Kharn

cool45auto
April 13, 2003, 09:07 PM
Kharn: :D

Soap
April 13, 2003, 09:19 PM
If he is the type of guy who carries a P32 as a primary and pocketful of sunshine, then he made his bed on this one.

Standing Wolf
April 13, 2003, 09:20 PM
Nope.

Crimper-D
April 13, 2003, 09:51 PM
COVER ME!!! :neener:

Kentucky Rifle
April 14, 2003, 09:11 AM
Me behind cover--with my Glock drawn and my hand resting on the counter or table or something? The "Alpha Hotel" would't even see me. The next thing the ******** would see is the Lord.
One more won't make any difference. Just another face in the dreams.

KR

foghornl
April 14, 2003, 09:53 AM
There are only 2 people within 100 miles of me that would get a weapon from me...wife or sis-in-law.

All others get the Kurt Russell reply....."Sorry, they are all in use..."

Hemicuda
April 14, 2003, 12:46 PM
Ther are exactly TWO people that I would hand it over to... and BOTH of them know that the way to ask is "gimme your gun, I have a clear shot on the BG!"

ONE of those (my Dad) carries a gun of his own, and likely would never need to ask...

The other is my best friend, and can't carry (due to a closed-head trauma while on duty as a cop) I'd STILL trust him w/ my life and my gun...

as for an off-duty cop? fat chance... I KNOW I can handle my gun... I don't know if he can!

cratz2
April 14, 2003, 03:59 PM
Not a chance... That would definately be a SHTF scenario and it's everyperson for him/her self.

If you lived on the Texas broder only had one firearm when were being invaded by Mexico, would you give your only gun to a neighbor? You wouldn't even consider it. When a LEO assumes that role, is preparedness should far exceed that of any boy scout.

Judging from the officers I know, it would be extremely unlikely that they would ever be caught with anything less than a G27, Commander or an S&W 340.

rebbryan
April 14, 2003, 04:06 PM
my main question regarding this thread is why the hell are you lookin at the officer and not turnin the bg into swiss cheese?

10-Ring
April 14, 2003, 04:11 PM
Huh? :scrutiny: I don't think I heard you right :scrutiny: Damn, I did hear you right!....NO! :neener:

Shalako
April 14, 2003, 05:18 PM
I love these kind of ‘what if’ threads, but could we maybe spice it up a little? I wonder if the responses would change if it went more like….

You’re at a casino in Monaco, when suddenly Osama Bin Laden bursts in and takes Britney Spears hostage. As you seek cover under a baccarat table, you notice Clint Smith fumbling with his Jennings-Bryco. He sees your Thunder Ranch Special is out and ready. Then you notice the bus boy bears a striking resemblance to Dick Marcinko and he keeps winking at you.
What do you do?


:scrutiny:

pax
April 14, 2003, 05:22 PM
Ask everyone for their autographs, of course.

pax

It isn't necessary to be rich and famous to be happy. It's only necessary to be rich. -- Alan Alda

Mute
April 14, 2003, 06:21 PM
Not bloody likely. However, he can use my cell phone to call 911.

spacemanspiff
April 14, 2003, 07:15 PM
i shoot the hostage. two rounds COM, enough silicone in there to save her from lifethreatening injuries, and osama would be stunned long enough to get the sights resting two inches below the turban.

Shalako
April 14, 2003, 07:23 PM
...frontsight, press....

Jmurman
April 14, 2003, 07:37 PM
no way. There is no way of knowing how competent he would be with my Kimber.

Darrin
April 14, 2003, 07:39 PM
I'd have a hard time trusting an unprepared LEO.

Stevie-Ray
April 14, 2003, 08:08 PM
You’re at a casino in Monaco, when suddenly Osama Bin Laden bursts in and takes Britney Spears hostage. As you seek cover under a baccarat table, you notice Clint Smith fumbling with his Jennings-Bryco. He sees your Thunder Ranch Special is out and ready. Then you notice the bus boy bears a striking resemblance to Dick Marcinko and he keeps winking at you. Hope to hell Dick is saying "I'm with you" rather than "I like your hairdo."

Bowlcut
April 14, 2003, 08:20 PM
And well Darrin I know what you would be carring :) not much better than a p32 other than number of rounds....


But noooope no thank you. If my gun is in my hand....you going to have to pry it out of my cold dead hands first.

SRYnidan
April 14, 2003, 08:49 PM
A long list of issues here.

1. Why is the LEO revealing his status to me? I could just as easily be the BG's lookout man.

2. This is presented as a hostage taking not a homicide in progress so why would either the LEO or I desire to change that. Lets get this guy away from most of these folks and then let SWAT deal with it.

3. If I am convinced that this about to change to a homicide in progress then the Cop can cover by back but I am not going to count on it.

4. As mentioned there is no assurance that the LEO is more capable than I am and many reasons to believe they are not.
Weapon familiarity, his blind trust that I am not a perp,

5. This is not the time to be playing hot potato with the side arms.

6. There is probably not enough time for some of the options some others have postulated.

7. I am over 40 a firearms instructor; a martial arts instructor, retired military and can vividly remember the Kitty Genovese murder in New York. This I am sure has some bearing on my view that I believe we have a social responsibility to not just walk away and let others die. I think that this is moral cowardice and I would have much trouble sleeping if I knew I had run when my abilities would have made the difference (I do understand that the litigation situation in this country is insane).

Country Boy
April 15, 2003, 11:47 AM
SRYnidan - 'bout sums it up.

samualt
April 15, 2003, 06:26 PM
Sure, he can have my gun....as soon as he can pry it from my cold dead hands!

Rule 1: Never surrender your weapon!
Rules 2-10: See Rule 1.

Appendix: To understand Rule 1 seek information (Movie, book, court testimony) on "The Onion Field".
:scrutiny:

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