Idea for a Carbine in .30 Tok


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mordechaianiliewicz
February 9, 2006, 01:54 AM
I recently was looking at a Beretta Storm, and an FN PS90. Of course I've seen the Hi-Point 9mm Carbine (which I cannot bring myself to purchase), and I thought to myself, what would be great is a .30 Tokarev carbine.

The PS90 uses that 5.7 round. Although I generally disagree with the concept of using "pistol" cartridges in a rifle (9mm, .40 S&W, .45 acp, etc.), The .30 Tok probably treads the line like .30 Carbine and 5.7x25 do.

I wonder what kinda velocities you would be looking at.

If you could get a 7.62x25mm carbine which was bullpup, lightweight, had scope rails, atleast a 20 round mag, and $500-ish, would you bite?

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beerslurpy
February 9, 2006, 02:03 AM
Depends how hot you can make it.

But the real answer is, "why not 7.62x39?" There are probably a lot of awesome guns you could make with 7.62x25, but the SBR laws make them economically unfeasible. Once you get up to a 16 inch minimum barrel, you might well just do an AK build.

LAK
February 9, 2006, 05:28 AM
I would, but not a bullpup. Just something light, handy and conventionally stocked.
-------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

SMLE
February 9, 2006, 05:36 AM
I once saw an M1 carbine that had been converted to 7.62x25 and to use PPsh 41 magazines. Although an M2 carbine would be better IMHO.
As for WHY? It would be FUN, why else! :D

Ash
February 9, 2006, 05:54 PM
For a while, Interordnance made a civilian version of the PPsh Sub gun that would take the drum magazine. It had a longer barrel and from what I understand, many of them had some of the same kind of troubles that Century Arms assembled guns had, but it was made.

Ash

KriegHund
February 9, 2006, 06:07 PM
Semi auto PPSH...drool.

I always thought the 7.62x25mm was a cool round and always was dissapointed that it appears only in the CZ-52 (at least for civilians).

The ,223 timbs (7.62x25 in .223 sabot) has impressive velocitys.

I think a Mini-14/30 style chambered in the cartridge would be....better than good :)

Just seems like the Mini would be awsome for the cartridge. Couldnt tell you 100% why, just feels... right.
And if it could take all the various styles of Mini stocks that be great too.
Oh and you could make it in the original Subgun hotter loads. As for x39, well, its already been done, thats why.

JShirley
February 9, 2006, 06:49 PM
I'd love a 7.62x25mm carbine, but prolly not a bull pup, just one with a nice 11.5-12.5" stock and large peep sight. :)

Wouldn't mind 9x23mm Winchester, either...

John

Red Tornado
February 10, 2006, 12:37 PM
I think all of us with a CZ52 or TT33 would love a 7.62x25 carbine of some type. I know I would, but not a bullpup design. I think Krieghound has a good idea, something along the lines of a Mini-14. I think something similar to a basic Camp 9in x25 would also be great.
RT

cane
February 10, 2006, 01:24 PM
I wonder if you could convert a M-1 carbine? I don't have one handy, but the magazine is about the right size, reline the barrel, rechamber???

Red Tornado
February 10, 2006, 03:03 PM
An M1 conversion would be great, but I think the magazine well would be a problem. The 7.62x25 is a larger diameter case and shorter as well. The length might not be as big a problem as having to widen the mag well. Keep in mind that I'm not a gunsmith and don't have a clue what would actually be involved. :scrutiny: That's just the seemingly obvious problem.
RT

mordechaianiliewicz
February 10, 2006, 05:48 PM
Only reason I thought bullpup is b/c they're high tech bad!

I got a cz-52 on order at the gun store (after shooting a few, I was sold). The ballistics charts would suggest a velocity of atleast 1600 fps out of a 16" bbl. The plastic contruction, and shape of the ps-90 has me thinking of a bullpup design over a more conventional.

Although I don't need it in bullpup, I would want composite, and a more "modern" look :evil:

gripper
February 10, 2006, 07:01 PM
As i recall ,that PPsh 41 carbine did NOT have a "real " 16 inch barrel, but rather the original ,with a smoothbore "extension" permanently affixed ( weld?) to it.:scrutiny: I wonder how a Ruger PC 9/40 would fare in a conversion, ormaybe even a factory built original(runs for flame retardant suit)...not that Sturm &Ruger have been keeping their ear tuned in to the likes of us mere mortals for our meager suggestions.
Or how about a glock ,full sized ,with a Mech-Tech type conversion available:evil: ??That coulld be an interesting bit of ordinance.

MatthewVanitas
February 10, 2006, 08:30 PM
Or how about a glock ,full sized ,with a Mech-Tech type conversion available:evil: ??That coulld be an interesting bit of ordinance.

MechTech would indeed seem to be your best option:

1) Small company that might actually be willing to do limited runs of odd variants.

2) Can share bolt, Glock lower, and Glock mags (?), only change needed is barrel.

3) Would make a nice, handy little package.

Main issue: would the Tok round fit any current Glock mag, or would need custom mags? If the latter, maybe a 1911 variant would be better. Not that I know where to get .30 1911 mags, but they at least have made .30 Mauser 1911s in the past, so it has been done.

Shoot 'em an email, see what they think! -MV

Red Tornado
February 13, 2006, 10:07 AM
How about skipping the Glock fantasy and go straight for a Mechtech for the CZ-52? How cool would that be?!?

I sent them an email asking about it, if everybody makes the request, maybe it will happen. Send those requests people!!!
RT

Gifted
July 15, 2006, 11:45 PM
I once saw an M1 carbine that had been converted to 7.62x25 and to use PPsh 41 magazines. Although an M2 carbine would be better IMHO.
As for WHY? It would be FUN, why else! Can you get more info on this? It's an idea I've been considering, and if someone's actually done it, it might be more feasible. M1 carbine is a great gun, but ammo is on the expensive side.

KadicDeshi
July 16, 2006, 01:13 AM
I wonder how a Ruger PC 9/40 would fare in a conversion, ormaybe even a factory built original

Even though I'd prefer a stock with a pistol grip, something more along the lines of a HK USC for instance, in a carbine like that, a Ruger like the one described above would be an interesting gun.

Barrett

grimjaw
July 16, 2006, 01:22 AM
Two that I know of, but don't know their availability.

PPS-43 (http://www.mgsdfw.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=FIRUPPSH43) and PPSH-41 (http://www.mgsdfw.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=FIRUPPSH41) from Military Gun Supply. One of our range members has a PPSH-41 built from a kit, chambered for .30 Tokarev. IIRC, it doesn't feed from drums very well, but he burns it up from stick magazines. Sounds like a fun gun.

jmm

MTMilitiaman
July 16, 2006, 01:42 AM
I recently was looking at a Beretta Storm, and an FN PS90. Of course I've seen the Hi-Point 9mm Carbine (which I cannot bring myself to purchase), and I thought to myself, what would be great is a .30 Tokarev carbine.

The PS90 uses that 5.7 round. Although I generally disagree with the concept of using "pistol" cartridges in a rifle (9mm, .40 S&W, .45 acp, etc.), The .30 Tok probably treads the line like .30 Carbine and 5.7x25 do.

I wonder what kinda velocities you would be looking at.

If you could get a 7.62x25mm carbine which was bullpup, lightweight, had scope rails, atleast a 20 round mag, and $500-ish, would you bite?

I suggested the idea of a 7.62x25 version of the PS90 on another forum a while ago.

Right now, the PS90 is like an H2--it generally exists just to prove the owner has too much money and not enough to do with it. As a LEO/military weapon, the P90 boasts two main points--its armor penetrating ability, and it compact size. The civilian version eliminates both, at least to a large degree. You can't get the armor penetrating ammunition (SS190?), and in fact, getting any ammunition can be troublesome and expensive. Even as a handloader's proposition, the 5.7 is difficult to find components for. With the ammunition you can get for the 5.7, most or all of its value as an anti-personal/defensive round is eliminated. The round becomes a plinker/small game round, but the platform itself is a little expensive for most to afford in this role.
The 5.7x28 and 7.62x25 have similar OAL, so at least initially, it appears like it would be possible to modify the PS90 to take the older Russian cartridge. This round has always been touted as a good penetrator and from a 16 inch barrel, the FMJ would likely get a good deal of it. Plus there is at least one viable option for self defense--a 90 gr Hornady XTP--which could be impressive at 7.62x25 velocities, esp from a carbine. I think it would breath new life into the PS90 by giving it an actual purpose beyond fun and games, but it would likely be the end of the 5.7, at least in the civilian role, and I doubt FN is willing to allow that to happen.

White Horseradish
July 16, 2006, 02:12 AM
Actually, the Hi-point is probably the best start for this. 7.62 Tokarev is based on .30 Mauser. The 9mm Parabellum is also based on .30 mauser. The bolt/extractor are the same for 9mm and 7.62 Tokarev. Magazine width is the same. All you would need is for the mag/magwell to be a bit longer and change the barrel to a .30.

OldSchooler
July 16, 2006, 09:00 AM
7.62 Tokarev is based on .30 Mauser. The 9mm Parabellum is also based on .30 mauser. The bolt/extractor are the same for 9mm and 7.62 Tokarev. Magazine width is the same. All you would need is for the mag/magwell to be a bit longer and change the barrel to a .30.
This is where I was thinking. The CZ 52 has a 9mm conversion option if youre inclined. So why not a 7.62 long gun/carbine built on any of the 9mm platforms currently in vogue. I like the Camp Carbine, hate the look of the hi-Point. SO...
Bullpup? Im in! The bullpup design is an ergonomic goodie and has proven it's worth. The Brits love 'em - I'll take one anyday.
I reckon you'd get something like .30 cal Carbine ballistics out of a light, compact, ultra totable package. Sounds good to me!

rangerruck
July 16, 2006, 01:46 PM
what is the cost of a box of tokes? Scary, but I was thinking this same thought last night, about a carbine toke. if muzzle velocity is 1500fps or so from a cz52, then it's gotta be over 2000fps from a say, 10 to 15 inch bbl, with flashsurp.

OldSchooler
July 16, 2006, 02:35 PM
what is the cost of a box of tokes?
7.62x25 SELLIER & BELLOT 85GR. BRASS CASED / BOXER PRIMED:
$139/500

1980's, Brass Case, Romanian NC/BE, 7.62x25 Surplus 72rd box:
$8.25/box

7.62x25 Tokarev Ammunition 2448 rounds:
$238.95

7.62x25, FNM 85gr FMJ-RN Brass cased, Boxer primed, non-corrosive, reloadable. 50 rounds. 1600 FPS comparable to S&B Quality
$10.00/50 rds

Langenator
July 16, 2006, 02:51 PM
You know, a 7.62x25 AR upper (with appropriate mag block) would be pretty fun, IMO. And probably wouldn't be terribly complex to engineer, given that Colt, RRA, and Oly already make them in 9mm.

jjohnson
July 25, 2006, 01:19 PM
Yep, count me in - I have a couple of CZ52s and although I don't think of it much as a "combat round" that I'd want to risk my life with, they ARE a lot of fun at the pistol range. A carbine would be downright handy and maybe those of us that are handloaders could make use of some of the slower powders with that longer barrel.

As long as you're gonna wish, may as well wish for one that could use either a CZ52 mag or an extended version of the same, just like my Marlin Camp 9. That's another story though; the Marlin is blowback, and a carbine in 7.62 would want to use a locked breech. Some of that *HOT* subgun ammo could be worthwhile if you did. If you did put it into bullpup configuration, that would be pretty handy to leave in your truck for occasional pest control, huh? Maybe with the little 100-grain half jacket 'plinker' bullet or something? It should work... let me know if you get somebody to tool up for 'em.:evil:

Langenator
July 25, 2006, 01:56 PM
Well, if you're going to make one that uses existing mags, I'd say PPsh mags would be the way to go. I'm sure there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of them stashed away in warehouses in the former USSR.

KaceCoyote
July 25, 2006, 02:08 PM
http://club.guns.ru/images/bizon-1.jpg


They already make it, and its called the bizon. From russia with love baby.

Langenator
July 25, 2006, 04:18 PM
I'm assuming that's a helical mag?

KaceCoyote
July 25, 2006, 04:22 PM
Correct, there are some straight mag variants out there supposedly.

MTMilitiaman
July 25, 2006, 04:26 PM
You know, I wouldn't turn down a chance at a civvie legal Bizon. In fact, I think I'd be all over that...

KaceCoyote
July 25, 2006, 04:28 PM
So would I, come in 9mm, 9x18 mak, 7.62x25 tok and I believe one other. I'd love to have to only carry 2 spare magazines.

Dr.Rob
July 25, 2006, 04:33 PM
I'm pretty sure the Bizon in 7.62Tok can use PPSH stick mags, but not the druns.

The helical mag holds 33 rounds if I recall correctly, the 9mm mak version holds 66!

I'd love a Bizon.

KaceCoyote
July 25, 2006, 04:35 PM
Probably wouldnt cost too much either, maybe 600?

White Horseradish
July 25, 2006, 08:05 PM
I've been told (when I brought this subject up elsewhere) that someone does make an AR upper in 7.62 Tokarev. However, AR-anything is out of my financial reach just now.

Something in Hi-Point price range would totally rock, though...

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