[Drizzt]

Portland officer sues Glock for millions

A Portland Police officer who was injured while firing a handgun has filed a multi-million-dollar lawsuit against the manufacturers of the gun and the ammunition.

Officer Florin B. Pirv was taking a qualification test in March 2004 with a .45 caliber Glock 21 when the “breech/cartridge feed ramp fractured, causing backward propulsion of hot gases, hot air, and shrapnel to be blown into Pirv’s face, body, and hands,” according to the suit.

The lawsuit names Glock and two ammunition-makers, Federal Cartridge Company and Alliant Technosystems, also known as ATK. Glock is based in Georgia. The ammunition-makers are based in Minnesota.

None returned phone calls and emails seeking comment.

Pirv was one of two Portland officers injured while firing .45-caliber Glocks in March 2004, prompting Portland Police Chief Derrick Foxworth to order the recall of the weapons carried by 230 officers.

The bureau replaced them with 9mm Glocks.

Pirv’s suit seeks $50,000 in compensatory damages, $3 million for pain and suffering and $50 million in punitive damages.

Pirv is assigned to a patrol shift, according to a Portland Police spokeswoman.

http://www.oregonlive.com/newslogs/oregonian/index.ssf?/mtlogs/olive_oregonian_news/archives/2006_02.html

[PlayboyPenguin]

Sorry to hear this...never heard it before and I live in Portland and have friends on the police force but it does not suprise me. I hope he wins. As i have said before...I do not care for Glocks.;)

[SomeKid]

Sorry to hear this...never heard it before and I live in Portland and have friends on the police force but it does not suprise me. I hope he wins. As i have said before...I do not care for Glocks.;)

With friends of the 2A like this...

[PlayboyPenguin]

With friends of the 2A like this...

One- I was clearly joking...notice the ;) or is that too subtle for you.

Two- Even if I was serious, how is it against the 2A to hold a manufacturer liable if they build and unsafe product and an innocent person is injured? I bet if it happened to you the dollar signs would over ride your pompousness (is that a word?).

[SomeKid]

I took that wink as your way of gloating.

[PlayboyPenguin]

I took that wink as your way of gloating.
Ahhh...rest assured I would never gloat about someone being injured...unless they pi$$ed me off.;)

A Cartman reference

[kirkcdl]

I saw photos of that pistol,he's lucky he still has his hand...

[Maxwell]

Hmm... I've never been a glock fan either. Ive heard rumors about the kb problem.
Theres a difference between sueing because the companies gun was used by some guy to shoot some other guy, and doing it because their gun blew up from being poorly built.

While Im a firm believer in the right to bear arms, I dont think it should shield gun makers any more than the first amendment shields the companies who build faulty radios.

A gun thats more dangerous than it needs to be, causing injury to the user or malfunctioning when its needed most, does not exactly help the cause.

[Dave P]

"Officer Florin B. Pirv"

Ya think he gets any ribbing about that name??

[LiquidTension]

I'd like to know exactly what happened to cause the kb. The .45 is a relatively low-pressure cartridge...sounds like an ammo problem.

[bogie]

Why is he suing Alliant? Maybe he cooked up some of his own handloads?

I don't see a violent kaboom all on its own... He maybe had a squib/bang...

Training issue.

[stevelyn]

I'd like to know exactly what happened to cause the kb. The .45 is a relatively low-pressure cartridge...sounds like an ammo problem.

He shouldn't get one thin Austrian Deutchmark unless there was something clearly defective with either the gun or ammo and even then his demands are ridiculus.
There's a calculated risk everytime you pick up a firearm and shoot it. That's why we stress the importance of wearing eye and ear protection.

[Lucky]

If the pistols were used (or abused) as training devices, it's within the realm of possibility that the department bears some responsibility, if a visual inspection could have detected defects.

[fantacmet]

I've known quite a few Portland officers. Living in Portland such as I do, and most of the ones who are actual firearm enthusiests have the same complaint. It's not that they really have anything against Glock, but that almost every department around Oregon approves Glock and ONLY Glock giving officers no recourse. Alot of them have trouble with the grip angle of the Glock. I've heard that it is supposed to be a good thing because it allows a faster draw or what have you, but Glock was designed in Europe. Europeans don't grow up with firearms like we do. Most people here grew up with the 1911 which is a spectacular firearm, every bit as reliable as a Glock. I'm not talking about the ancient ones, but modern 1911's. The grip angle is quite different. The few guns Europeans have had have always had steep grip angles whlie Americans have had shallow grip angles. Whien instinct takes over one naturally points to the sky here. Although grip angle is not the only problem. Glocks you cannot change your grips(although I can't change the grips on my beloved Springfield XD either) some people just don't like the feel of the glock. despite finger groobes and this that and the other, ergonomics can only go so far when you keep the basic structure. The XD was designed differently. The XD is every bit as good as the glock and in some cases even better. Glocks have a bit more accuracy, (I hate Glock to be honest and would never own one but credit must be given where credit is due regardless) but the XD's accruacy is still well within what is required for law enforcement. I admire Glock's attempts at it's "torture" tests but there isn't much torture involved. So they leave it in sand for 3 days. They also clean the sand out, they don't oil the gun, but any reasonable quality service weapon is going to be able to function with lack of lubrication, as it should be. Springfield has taken their XD and just shook the sand off of it and then shot it with no malfunctions. People have tried with Glock and while they functioned more then long enough for a sustained firefight, they still failed. Basically what I am getting at is the durability of a Glock is more then a bit overrated. After a million rounds a Glock heads for the trash. After 2 million the XD is still going. Plus the XD is more comfortable in the hand, although felt recoil is a bit higher due to the shallower grip angle. Each gun has it's advantages and disadvantages. Both guns are more then reliable for police duty. However Glocks shold be limited to the lower pressure calibers that the Europeans have experience with. The .45 Glock is NOT a .45ACP it is the .45GAP. I can understand a department wanting a modern polymer pistol in the hands of all officers. Restricting officers to a single brand is pointless, especially in the case of Glock. While Glock offers different models they are all exactly the same. Only real differences are caliber, and size. Give officers another option. While this whole "rant" if you will may seem to be off topic I think it comes down to the core of the problem. BY refusing officers any options Glock as the monopoly and they know it. As long as their general quality levels remain reasonable, they can let their quality control and other things slip. Glock has been starting to cut corners for years. This is not the first incident regarding a glock exploding in the users hand. There have been over 1000 Glocks, but due to the modern trend of nobody taking responsibility for their actions, people don't let this kind of thing out, so it goes unnoticed and the problem only gets worse. Here's to Glock for for daring to jump into uncharted waters with a revolutionary new concept. While I've never liked your guns personally, until the past 5-10 years they have always been extremely finely made firearms, but you can do better. Here's to Springfield for making the XD, the same modernization, with some enhancements in certain area's, and bringing the modern pistol an American flavor that American shooters can transition to far easier then a Glock. Some people are more comfortable with a Glock some are more comfortable with an XD or a 1911 in their hands.

In the officers case I think he is justified for suing Glock. While the amount may be a bit on the high side he probably won't be awarded that much. I think the first figure of 3 million is about fair, the 50 million is not. Should be dropped to an absolute maximum of 5. It's one thing to sue for faulty design, it's another to sue a company because some jackass used their product in the right way. Do we sue the auto manfufacturers everytime some nutjob runs down a family? Nope.

Car, gun. Both tools. Each with a different purpose. Guess which one is more deadly, AND is easier to obtain, and less restrictive?

Rev. Michael

P.S. I apoligize for the long post, but I'm a bit tired and I tend to get abit sidetracked at times as can be seen from my other postings elseware.

[1911 guy]

I do wonder what the deal is here. Like Liquid Tension said, .45ACP is a low pressure round, mostly we hear internet stories about .40S&W. I also wonder if the rounds used had been A)handloaded or B)chambered many times and the bullet was set back, increasing the pressure.

[perpster]

He shouldn't get one thin Austrian Deutchmark unless there was something clearly defective with either the gun or ammo and even then his demands are ridiculus.
There's a calculated risk everytime you pick up a firearm and shoot it. That's why we stress the importance of wearing eye and ear protection.

I respectfully beg to differ. Officers on patrol aren't wearing eye/ear protection. No one expects them to and every gun manufacturer knows that.

Would you say the same thing if it happened to him during a shootout?

Of course, if was using handloads that's a different story.

[Father Knows Best]

Why is he suing Alliant? Maybe he cooked up some of his own handloads?

Alliant makes a lot more than powder for reloading. Alliant Techsystems, Inc., also known as "ATK" is the biggest ammunition manufacturer in the U.S. ATK owns the Federal, CCI and Speer brands, for example. ATK also manufactures neat stuff like spacecraft and precision-guided bombs. Federal Cartridge Company is a subsidiary of ATK.

[Double Naught Spy]

I saw photos of that pistol,he's lucky he still has his hand...

Um, probably not. When have you ever heard of a pistol kb resulting in the loss of a hand? .40 and .45 Glock kbs are usually a case failure due to the case not being supported by the chamber at the ramp. Damage to the shooter may include cuts and burns. This is what this sounds like by the description given.

While noted that the .45 acp is a "low pressure" round, it is still more than enough pressure to break apart Glock guns.

Why is he suing Alliant? Maybe he cooked up some of his own handloads?

I don't see a violent kaboom all on its own... He maybe had a squib/bang...

Training issue.

You don't see a kb all on its own? Are you familiar with Glock pistols at all? The unsupported feed ramp problem isn't rare.

Why suing Alliant? You are kidding, right? The officer was using the gun to qualify with the kb happened. Since when does Portland PD allow officers to quality with handloaded ammo? However, it isn't going to be an ammo problem. The ammo part of the suit is probably just part of the umbrella of lawsuits filed in hopes of getting big money. The officer may yet also sue the department for having officers use guns with a history of this particular type of catastrophic failure, sort of like officers have sued departments for being forced to drive around in Crown Vics that burst into flames when struck from behind. Strangely in the Crown Vic suits, you never hear of the maker of gasoline being sued, but yet the ammo maker is being sued.

Maybe a squib? No. As noted, it was a “breech/cartridge feed ramp fractured."

The attached pics are of another .45 acp Glock that had a case failure at the unsupported chamber over the feed ramp. The extractor, mag catch, and trigger assemblies were all broken up. The mag was forcefully evacuated from the gun via the hot gasses and destroyed mag catch. In the A42A pic, you can see the blown case as it was in the gun before with disassembled it. The case is in the last image.

The shooter suffered minor lacerations on his fingers (mostly from trigger as I recall) and some minor burns. Glock replaced the frame and parts at no expense.

[perpster]

Alliant makes a lot more than powder for reloading. Alliant Techsystems, Inc., also known as "ATK" is the biggest ammunition manufacturer in the U.S. ATK owns the Federal, CCI and Speer brands, for example. ATK also manufactures neat stuff like spacecraft and precision-guided bombs. Federal Cartridge Company is a subsidiary of ATK.

Then I hope to see nano-technology enabled heat seeking bullets for our armed forces and LEO in the not-too-distant future!

[1911user]

The .45 Glock is NOT a .45ACP it is the .45GAP.

Wrong. The glock model 21 is chambered for the 45ACP cartridge.

I didn't realize the G21 also had the unsupported chamber like the G22.
The grip angle doesn't point well for me anyway, so no glocks in my future.

[middy]

Wow, fantacmet, I have never seen so much BS in one post! That's amazing.

P.S. Paragraph breaks are much appreciated by readers.

[WT]

FYI: Message sent out to all agencies by Portland PD.
_________________________________

CATASTROPHIC FAILURE GLOCK MODEL 21
***** SAFETY INFORMATION *******
REQUEST NATIONAL BROADCAST

PER PPB TRAINING, PLEASE READ AND DISSEMINATE THE FOLLOWING NATIONAL TELETYPE: PORTLAND POLICE BUREAU ADVISES ALL LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES OF TWO INCIDENTS OF CATASTROPHIC FAILURE DURING FIREARMS TRAINING. BOTH INCIDENTS INVOLVED GLOCK MODEL 21 (45) AND FEDERAL 230 HI-SHOK PRACTICE AMMUNITION. THE FAILURE IS DESCRIBED AS FOLLOWS:

BOTH OFFICERS STATED NO NOTICEABLE DIFFERENCE UPON FIRING. BOTH HANDGUNS HAD CASINGS EXPAND AND FAILED TO EXTRACT. THE GASES ESCAPED BY BLOWING A HOLE THROUGH THE SIDE OF THE CASING TEARING AWAY THE BOTTOM HALF OF THE BARREL AT THE LOCKING LUGS, BENDING THEM DOWNWARD AT APPROXIMATELY 30 DEGREE ANGLE. THE GASES CONTINUED THROUGH THE TRIGGER HOUSING AND MAGAZINE WELL, DESTROYING BOTH COMPONENTS COMPLETELY. ADDITIONALLY THE UPPER WAS SEPARATED FROM THE LOWER, BLOWING EACH UPPER SEVERAL FEET FORWARD OF THE FIRING POSITION. BOTH OFFICERS SUFFERED ONLY MINOR INJURIES FROM SHRAPNEL TYPE DEBRIS. PPB IS TEMPORARILY SUSPENDING ALL USE OF FEDERAL 230 PRACTICE AMMO PENDING INVESTIGATION.

ANY AGENCIES WITH LIKE INCIDENTS PLEASE CONTACT SGT. MIKE LEE AT PORTLAND POLICE BUREAU¹ TRAINING 503-823-0820 OR 793-9389

[Chipperman]

Anyone have the pics of this gun?

[YellowLab]

Why on gods green earth are people even bringing up handloads? :banghead:

Are thier any major metro PD's that use HANDLOADS for official firearms training? :confused:

Are people simply trying to build thier post count? :confused:

Guns fail. Factory ammo fails. Basically ????? HAPPENS.

Sucks that it happened, but come one, reloads? :banghead: :confused: :banghead: :confused:

[buzz_knox]

Pirv’s suit seeks $50,000 in compensatory damages, $3 million for pain and suffering and $50 million in punitive damages.


I hate it when clients listen to scumbag lawyers who say "you'll make millions for that scratch!"

[Master Blaster]

Its factory ammo, It was double charged on the factory highspeed automated equipment. Or maybe they used the wrong powder!!!!!

This does happen you know, and if that is the case, combined with slightly out of spec headspace, you get thet effect you see here.

It can also happen to a 1911. If you think that 1911s support the case head more than a glock, well I own both, and guess what a 1911 has the same unsupported area except its larger.

[buzz_knox]

Its factory ammo, It was double charged on the factory highspeed automated equipment. Or maybe they used the wrong powder!!!!!

This does happen you know, and if that is the case, combined with slightly out of spec headspace, you get thet effect you see here.

It can also happen to a 1911. If you think that 1911s support the case head more than a glock, well I own both, and guess what a 1911 has the same unsupported area except its larger.

I wonder if it was the same lot of ammo (probably) and the time difference between the two incidents.

[Baba Louie]

Back in '95, when I took my first CCW class, the instructor, a retired Marine Gunnery Sgt, LEO Trainer, Glock Armorer and general gun knowledgable kinda guy, warned us about the 21's "non-fully supported" barrel and told us to buy and install a Bar-Sto Fully Supported barrel if we were going to own, carry, & shoot a Model 21/30.

http://www.barsto.com/category_main.cfm?ID=GLOCK

Those barrels aren't cheap. What is your well being worth? $53,050,000 (less your attorney's cut of course) I guess. Hmmm. Spend $200+ or get hurt and try to convince a jury to award you $X.XX

Too bad for Glock and too bad for Officer F.Pirv. The Glock guys that taught my instructor at his Glock Armorer's School knew about this way back when. Hence his words of advice/warning. If there's any paper trail in-house, or they can find a disgruntled "Glock Ex-Employee" to testify in their behalf...
:uhoh:

If you own a 21 or a 30, take the factory barrel out, place a dummy round in the chamber and see what hangs out or is left exposed. Then marry barrel into slide (you'll have to take dummy round and place it into slide first, sliding barrel onto round). It doesn't seem like enough of the case is left exposed once the slide locks up w/ the barrel, but a small area at the bottom of the case, right above the feedramp is there for all the world to see. A bad piece of brass, some aberrant powder charge, a questionable reload... :eek:

Probably be settled out of court, with private non-disclosable to the public results. :rolleyes:

Does make me wonder tho'. I've shot thousands of rounds thru both the 30 and 21 with no KB... yet. Maybe I've been lucky. I know I do not shoot reloads or re-mfg rounds through them. Nor do I shoot +P.

[buzz_knox]

A lot of weapons have comparable levels of "non" support as the Glock. There's more going on than just that in the kBs.

[HankB]

Most people here grew up with the 1911 which is a spectacular firearm, every bit as reliable as a Glock. I'm not talking about the ancient ones, but modern 1911's.I'm a fan of the 1911 design, but it's my observation that run of the mill, out of the box 1911s don't have anywhere near the reliability that Glocks do. (Not that Glocks are perfect . . . they're not, not even in 9mm.)

As to this incident, it sounds like it may be a legitimate case of a defective product, either the gun or the ammo, unless it can be shown that some unusual user action (poor maintenance?) is the cause. Guns ought not blow up.

I gather the injuries are minor, and not permanent . . . if that's the case, tens of thousands of dollars of compensation (plus reasonable legal fees) is appropriate. Tens of millions of dollars is absurd.

[ball3006]

WILL BREAK...........Mr. Murphy says so.......Just his time, I guess.......I have two Glocks and they have been 100 percent trouble free for 12 years.......many thousands of rounds through them......Was this ammo loaded by a remanufacturer by chance? chris3

[bowfin]

Give the officer a band-aid, kiss his owie slip him a grand, then give the Police Department a new handgun of their choice, and make the lawyer in this chamber and fire rounds through the defective pistol until he is no longer lstanding.

It was a defective handgun, not a Powerball ticket.

[engineer151515]

At least they are not suing Glock for the gun unintentionally firing (ie. someone having their finger on the trigger when they shouldn't).

Happened here in AL.
link http://www.wkrg.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WKRG/MGArticle/KRG_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031782175198

"The mother of a man who died last year after he was shot by a State Trooper is filing a lawsuit against the gun manufacturer.

Valerie Goodwin, the mother of Darrell Taylor, filed suit against Glock Incorporated. Her son was killed during a traffic stop on the Mobile Bay Causeway last April. A Baldwin County Grand Jury ruled the shooting was accidental.

A Glock Semi-Automatic handgun was used by State Trooper Angel Rodriguez. At least one gun shop owner says the Glock handgun is safe, but the lawsuit claims it takes very little pressure on the trigger to make the gun fire.

Bryan Cigeleske, Attorney for Goodwin says "There needs to be an awareness that the Glock Pistol is a dangerous weapon. As it's being marketed and distributed to police and law enforcement throughout this state and really the nation."






At least in the Portland case, something did mechanically fail..........

[TheEgg]

THE GASES ESCAPED BY BLOWING A HOLE THROUGH THE SIDE OF THE CASING TEARING AWAY THE BOTTOM HALF OF THE BARREL AT THE LOCKING LUGS, BENDING THEM DOWNWARD AT APPROXIMATELY 30 DEGREE ANGLE.

I am a technical nit-wit when it comes to things like this, but that sure sounds like an ammunition related malfunction -- overcharged round, bbl obstruction, and so on. My reasoning follows -- tell me where I am wrong.

I come to this as follows -- assuming the bbl on this particular gun was not defective in any way, it was designed and manufactured to withstand at least 10% over the standard SAMMI pressure for the round. Thus, the bbl., under ANY circumstances should not be damaged by pressure up to that limit, not if the cartridge case was defective, the bbl was slightly out of battery, etc. (I am not saying anything about any other part of the gun being damaged -- sure, they could be damaged by a regular ole .45acp round because they are not designed to contain the pressure -- I am limiting my remarks to the bbl. only).

Thus, MORE energy than is available in a properly loaded round would be required to do the damage listed above. Where does that energy come from? Does it not HAVE to come from excess/wrong powder in the cartridge in question, or an obstruction?

Or have I just removed all doubts about my nit-wit status?:)

[Double Maduro]

Its factory ammo, It was double charged on the factory highspeed automated equipment. Or maybe they used the wrong powder!!!!!



Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, BS. if it was the wrong powder, don't you think more than 2 rounds would be affected? If it was double loads, don't you think that someone would have noticed?

What about the one that blew up 2 years before, here in Portland?

I am truly tired of the Glock is good - Glock is bad debate. The fact is that there seems to be a problem with G21's. Everytime some one mentions this the Glock apologists say, "must be reloads" or "must be bad ammo". I call bs.

This is not the only time and place that a G21 has kaboomed.

The rounds in question were factory loads, no one else has reported problems from that lot of ammo. The ammo companies could not stay in business for long with a double charge rate of 2%. That's assuming that the rounds came from differant boxes and not the same one.

This is not a 2nd ammendmant issue, it is a product liability issue.

I don't have anything against Glock, except that I have never found one that fit my hands.

By the way, I believe that glock replaced the used Portland G21's with new 9mm's, can't recall the model, on a straight across trade. Makes me think that Glock knows there is a problem and doesn't want it to come out. Well this suit will let the issue hit the fan.

I think that if there is a problem, Glock will settle and settle fast, if not, they will want it to go to trial so they can prove there is no problem.

Now, everyone repeat after me;

Glock is good,
Glocks don't kaboom,
If Glocks do kaboom, (we know they don't, see above) it is reloads,
If Glocks kaboom and it is not reloads, it is double charged factory ammo,
If Glocks kaboom and it is not reloads or double charged factory ammo, it is because all guns kaboom once in a while, we only hear about it more with Glocks because there are so many more glocks out there than everything else combined, ( I personally think there are more 1911's out there than all other pistols combined, but I am probably wrong. There are certainly more 1911's than G21's, so why don't we hear about more 1911 kabooms?)

Those who believe that the G21 is as good as all other Glocks, will not change their minds. Neither will the people who believe the G21 is a piece of junk hand grenade in .45acp.

Now get over it.

DM

[Double Maduro]

Egg,

come to this as follows -- assuming the bbl on this particular gun was not defective in any way, it was designed and manufactured to withstand at least 10% over the standard SAMMI pressure for the round.

Good theory, except it was 3 G21's that kaboomed in Portland, 2 within a few days of each other and one about 2 years earlier.

Ammo manufacturers could not stay in bussiness with an over-charge rate that high. They would have been sued out of existance years ago.

I think the reason the ammo manufacturer, Federal, was sued along with Glock, is to make the 2 of them fight it out in court and finally put to rest the bad gun-bad ammo question.

We'll have to wait and see who blinks first.

DM

[buzz_knox]

Egg,

I think the reason the ammo manufacturer, Federal, was sued along with Glock, is to make the 2 of them fight it out in court and finally put to rest the bad gun-bad ammo question.

We'll have to wait and see who blinks first.

DM

A careful attorney sues everyone with the slightest possibility of being found liable to insure that 1) the named defendant can't effectively say "the other guy did it" and reduce/eliminate it's own culpability, and 2) if the evidence shows the other guy actually did do it, and the attorney didn't sue them, the attorney's malpractice carrier will be most uphappy.

[Double Maduro]

Bryan Cigeleske, Attorney for Goodwin says "There needs to be an awareness that the Glock Pistol is a dangerous weapon. As it's being marketed and distributed to police and law enforcement throughout this state and really the nation."


Dangerous weapon, well, duuuuh.

If it wasn't the police wouldn't have much use for it now would they?

DM

[TheEgg]

Good theory, except it was 3 G21's that kaboomed in Portland, 2 within a few days of each other and one about 2 years earlier.

Ammo manufacturers could not stay in bussiness with an over-charge rate that high. They would have been sued out of existance years ago.

I really don't think it is possible, one way or another, to come to much of a conclusion about an 'over-charge' rate from the very limited information we have.

On the other hand, 2 within a few days of each other makes me think about a 'bad lot' due to some problem at the factory. PD's would purchase large quantities of ammunition at one time, thus perhaps getting box after box of ammo produced in close sequence to each other. Thus, if there were a problem on the line for only a few minutes, you might get some bad rounds in your lot, but no one else would, assuming that the problem was corrected somehow.

The other one from 2 years ago sounds like maybe a statistical outlier -- can't say much about that. Could have even been a defective bbl.:)

Remember, I am making the assumption in my argument that the bbl's in question are NOT defective in some way -- that may not be true.

BTW -- I have no emotional baggage regarding Glocks -- I have been satisfied with the ones I own, but I really prefer to get weepy-eyed over my 1911's.

[Double Maduro]

BTW -- I have no emotional baggage regarding Glocks -- I have been satisfied with the ones I own, but I really prefer to get weepy-eyed over my 1911's.


Me too, if I ever found a glock that fit my hands I would probably buy it.

I retired my 1911 a couple of years ago, well she is 92 years old.


A friend of mine just bought a Springfield 1911, I think it is one of the loaded ones, nice handgun.

The day she got it we took it out to the "dump", this is a place just outside Portland, the range she belongs to was closed that day.

She shot it a bit and I asked her how she liked it, she said she really liked it but would have to get used to it. When she asked if I would like to try it I said sure. In the next 7 seconds I put 7 holes, actually as it turned out it was only one hole about the size of a silver dollar, one of the real ones, in the paper, right where I wanted it, at about 30 feet. She asked if I liked it, and I said let's go look at the target. When I showed her the one big hole, I said, "it'll do". She asked, "how do you do that with a new gun" I said, "it's a 1911, they are all the same, and I like them." :)

A 1911 was the first handgun I ever shot, I think I was about 7 or 8, and I have yet to find one that won't point for me. It's almost like JMB had me in mind when he designed the first one.

This Springer truly is one sweet shooting 1911. Now I just have to talk her into swapping for my Makarov. :evil:

DM

[buzz_knox]

This Springer truly is one sweet shooting 1911. Now I just have to talk her into swapping for my Makarov. :evil:

DM

That would be evil. Pure evil. I thought she was your friend! ;)

[cxm]

Austria has not used marks (ReichMarks) since 1945 or so...

Austria does use Shillings...

FWIW

Chuck


He shouldn't get one thin Austrian Deutchmark unless there was something clearly defective with either the gun or ammo and even then his demands are ridiculus.
There's a calculated risk everytime you pick up a firearm and shoot it. That's why we stress the importance of wearing eye and ear protection.

[ducati]

I am glad he is suing Glock, and I bet Glock is too. The reason Glock wanted to inspect the 2 firearms, but the PPD would not send them back to Glock.
Glock even offered to fly a rep from the Portland PD with the firearms and let them watch the inspection and would be able to return the damaged Glocks with them.
The suit should allow Glock to inspect the weapons to see if it was a firearm problem or ammo problem.
Our local PD had 3 HK USP .45 cals blow up in 1 day. Guess what? ammo problem.

[Double Maduro]

Buzz,

That would be evil. Pure evil. I thought she was your friend!
Today 10:47 AM


She is. She has only been shooting for a few months, and really wanted an Ed Brown Kobra, but didn't want to wait for 6 months or more, I suggested the Springfield and she is very happy with it.

I have told her that when she gets the Ed Brown, that she should talk to me about the springer.

DM

[Double Maduro]

I am glad he is suing Glock, and I bet Glock is too. The reason Glock wanted to inspect the 2 firearms, but the PPD would not send them back to Glock.
Glock even offered to fly a rep from the Portland PD with the firearms and let them watch the inspection and would be able to return the damaged Glocks with them.
The suit should allow Glock to inspect the weapons to see if it was a firearm problem or ammo problem.
Our local PD had 3 HK USP .45 cals blow up in 1 day. Guess what? ammo problem.

Actually, the Portland Police Bureau has a good relationship with glock and has been quite interrested in what went wrong.

Glock must not be too upset with the PPB, they swapped the guns out at no charge. Now would they have done that if they didn't think there was a problem?

DM

[MechAg94]

Actually, the Portland Police Bureau has a good relationship with glock and has been quite interrested in what went wrong.

Glock must not be too upset with the PPB, they swapped the guns out at no charge. Now would they have done that if they didn't think there was a problem?

DM
Yes. If they want to keep their big customers happy, they will throw in some extra warranty coverage.

Don't just assume this is a Glock problem just because you don't like them or you perceive an pre-existing problem.

This thread sounds like one of the cop bashing threads but with Glock instead of a LEO. Everyone is jumping to conclusions based on the facts they think they know.

[Vern Humphrey]

Maybe a squib? No. As noted, it was a “breech/cartridge feed ramp fractured."

Doesn't preclude a squib -- one that left a bullet stuck in the barrel, with the next shot being the one that did the damage.

[SLCDave]

Not only does he have a Glock blow up in his face, but now he has to carry a 9mm...

Some guys just can't win... :neener:

[Vern Humphrey]

Not only does he have a Glock blow up in his face, but now he has to carry a 9mm...

Some guys just can't win... :neener:

Next time it happens he'll have to wear lace on his shorts.:p

[Double Maduro]

Don't just assume this is a Glock problem just because you don't like them or you perceive an pre-existing problem.

This thread sounds like one of the cop bashing threads but with Glock instead of a LEO. Everyone is jumping to conclusions based on the facts they think they know.

I would like you to go back and read my posts on this thread, and then do a search for all of my posts. Show me one where I have bashed LEO's. Hell, show me one where I have bashed Glock.

I am an independant computer consultant, I go through this all the time. Client calls and says the system isn't working right. I call the hardware people and they say it is the software. I call the software people and they say it is the hardware. However, when I get the hardware people and the software people on a conferrence call with the client and say "Prove your position", things get done and problems get solved rather than each side blaming the other.

I am hoping this does go to trial, then Glock and Federal will have to prove that it wasn't their fault and we will know, once and for freaking all if there is a problem with Glock.

I believe that Glock will settle though, if there have been recalls, I believe Glock prefers to call them "upgrades", Glock probably doesn't want anyone to know how many. Same with denied problems.

By the way, nice attempt at misdirection there, equating LEO bashing with Glock bashing. Any facts I have stated have come from the Portland Oregonian, yeah I know, but it's the paper of record.

I do find it strange that there are so many threads about glock kb's though and so many people willing to believe that they are all made up or are the fault of amunition.


DM

[Vern Humphrey]

I am hoping this does go to trial, then Glock and Federal will have to prove that it wasn't their fault and we will know, once and for freaking all if there is a problem with Glock.

Not if the lawyers have their way -- after all, a civil trial isn't about truth, it's about money.

Case in point, the Dalkon Shield. The company was bankrupted, American women who could not tolerate the Pill were deprived for a generation of a safe, effective birth control method -- and when the smoke cleared, even Bill Clinton's Surgeon General (no conservative, he) admitted the data showed there was no risk to using the Dalkon Shield.

[Graystar]

Alot of them have trouble with the grip angle of the Glock...I'm not talking about the ancient ones, but modern 1911's. The grip angle is quite different.
That's odd...when I compare the backstrap angle between the Glock and my 1911, they're nearly identical. Also, both firearms point nearly exactly the same way in my hand, which is what I'd expect.

I guess experiences will vary.

[Vern Humphrey]

That's odd...when I compare the backstrap angle between the Glock and my 1911, they're nearly identical. Also, both firearms point nearly exactly the same way in my hand, which is what I'd expect.

I guess experiences will vary.

Ahh, but you haven't KBed your Glock, have you? That changes the grip angle.;)

[1911user]

That's odd...when I compare the backstrap angle between the Glock and my 1911, they're nearly identical. Also, both firearms point nearly exactly the same way in my hand, which is what I'd expect.

I guess experiences will vary.
I'll bet the big difference is arched vs. flat mainspring housings. I could believe an arched 1911 and a glock would point about the same. I like and use a flat housing 1911 and every glock I've tried points high at a 15-20 degree angle. That's a major reason I'll never buy a glock for serious use; it doesn't point well for me.

[KriegHund]

WTH is he suing glock for?

Cause they didnt build their gun to withstand a .45 blowup in the chamber when the chamner is partially open (from what i can tell) :rolleyes:

Yeah, it sucks, but sh** happens.

[Vern Humphrey]

WTH is he suing glock for?

Cause they didnt build their gun to withstand a .45 blowup in the chamber when the chamner is partially open (from what i can tell) :rolleyes:

Yeah, it sucks, but sh** happens.

Glocks can fire out of battery -- which is one reason I don't own one.

[JohnKSa]

WARNING! BEFORE reading farther, please read the disclaimer at the end of the post.

fantacmet,

Between the time the 1911 was introduced and the time it became hugely popular in the U.S., it was often criticized for having a poor grip angle while European pistols such as the Luger were praised for being natural pointers.

Elmer Keith repeatedly states in his book "Sixguns" that the 1911 grip angle made it a poor natural pointer. BTW, he did like the pointing capabilities of the ORIGINAL Colt .45, the SAA. ;)

[R.H. Lee]

So where is a Glock chamber any more 'unsupported' than a 1911? They look the same to me.

[Vern Humphrey]

So where is a Glock chamber any more 'unsupported' than a 1911? They look the same to me.

The difference is not in the chamber design, but in the fact that the Glock will fire out of battery. More than one KB has been traced to a dirty weapon (often due to firing lead bullets). As crud built up in the chamber mouth, the case went in a little less each time, until finally the case ruptured.

Somewhere there's a picture floating around on the web of a series of cases lined up -- the first has a tiny, barely visible bulge, the next a bit more and so on until you get to the one that ruptured.

[R.H. Lee]

The attached pics are of another .45 acp Glock that had a case failure at the unsupported chamber over the feed ramp.
and
I didn't realize the G21 also had the unsupported chamber like the G2

eh?

[strambo]

I can see sueing for the 50K and maybe a couple 100 grand for pain and suffering. However, 3 million for pain and suffering??? If a Police officer is so wimpy he thinks his "suffering" over a few scratches and some burns merits 3 million dollars...I don't want him "protecting" me. Finally, 50 million punitive damages?? Yeah, Glock really deserves to be put out of business for this BS.:rolleyes:

I like how they sue 3 companies just in case. Who's fault was it, who are they trying to punish? Was it Glock (poor design), Federal (bad ammo), Alliant (bad powder), or PPD (bad inspection, armorer), or the officers (poorly maintained weapon?) How about a combination of all of the above. I hate money grubbin' lawyers and their "I'll get greedy and try to hit the lawsuit lottery" clients.

[Vern Humphrey]

I can see sueing for the 50K and maybe a couple 100 grand for pain and suffering. However, 3 million for pain and suffering??? If a Police officer is so wimpy he thinks his "suffering" over a few scratches and some burns merits 3 million dollars...I don't want him "protecting" me. Finally, 50 million punitive damages?? Yeah, Glock really deserves to be put out of business for this BS.:rolleyes:

I like how they sue 3 companies just in case. Who's fault was it, who are they trying to punish? Was it Glock (poor design), Federal (bad ammo), Alliant (bad powder), or PPD (bad inspection, armorer), or the officers (poorly maintained weapon?) How about a combination of all of the above. I hate money grubbin' lawyers and their "I'll get greedy and try to hit the lawsuit lottery" clients.

Unfortunately, our system is designed to promote this. In some countries they have a pre-suit session where the plaintiff and his lawyer have to demonstrate that they really have a case, and that the defendant is probably liable. We have nothing like that -- any fool can file suit for anything. And once you're sued, you must defend.

It leads to a scam on the insurance companies, "I know it'll cost you $100K to fight this suit. Give me $80K and I'll go away."

Another problem is we allow over-use of things like class-action lawsuits (where the lawyers get more than 60% of the money, and the members of the class get a coupon for $10 off on their next oil change.)

We ought to have the English rule (loser pays the winner's costs.) And in contingency fee cases, the lawyer should be liable for his share.

[R.H. Lee]

The difference is not in the chamber design, but in the fact that the Glock will fire out of battery. More than one KB has been traced to a dirty weapon (often due to firing lead bullets). As crud built up in the chamber mouth, the case went in a little less each time, until finally the case ruptured.
A Glock won't fire any further out of battery than will a 1911, which is what, 1/32" or thereabouts (maybe Tuner can tell us) until the disconnector meets the groove in the slide. The Glock barrel drops out of the way of the firing pin when the pistol is out of battery; it can't fire because the striker can't hit the primer.

[Crosshair]

Glocks can fire out of battery -- which is one reason I don't own one.
Even my Llama 1911 knockoff doesn't fire until it is in full lockup, and it has seen better days.

[Vern Humphrey]

A Glock won't fire any further out of battery than will a 1911, which is what, 1/32" or thereabouts (maybe Tuner can tell us) until the disconnector meets the groove in the slide. The Glock barrel drops out of the way of the firing pin when the pistol is out of battery; it can't fire because the striker can't hit the primer.

Despite that, Glocks seem to have more KBs than about anything else. And while a clean, empty Glock may have the breech out of alignment with the fireing pin, a slide moving dynamically forward on a round being shoved into a dirty chamber is a different matter.

[Graystar]

Ahh, but you haven't KBed your Glock, have you? That changes the grip angle.;)
I feel so silly! That was so obvious! :p

[kirkcdl]

The story I got was that Glock offered to replace the ENTIRE PPD inventory with another model,if PPD wanted,contingent on PPD returning the 2 KB'd G21s to Glock for inspection.PPD refused,and Glock retracted the offer.The photo I saw showed an open channel about 1/2" in width running from the right rear of the ejection port all the way to the bottom of the grip,in sort of an inverted "L" shape.If this officer was right handed,it would have been right across the palm of his hand,left handed would have been fingertips.Others here may have better sources as far as the details go,though...

[MTMilitiaman]

This guy is obviously desperate. With numbers that high he can only be hoping to get enough attention to persuade Glock to settle out of court. Fifty-million? That's absurd to the extreme. Ludicrous beyond measure. The guy should be pistol whipped for even suggesting this incident is worth a tenth of that amount. I want to see Glock force him to put his money where his mouth is by taking this to court. Call his bluff. Make this guy squirm at the thought of his own lawyer fees.

I am not a fan of Federal ammunition. I have had comparatively more problems with it than I have with Wolf, believe it or not. I've had 3 incidents with Wolf spaced over about five years and 6000 rounds. But in about 200 rounds of Federal ammunition, I had a round blow a primer out. We had to tap the bolt open with a mallet. It was a 150 gr SP in a Rem M700 .270 Win and it was my sister's first time shooting anything larger than a .223. She was so frightened by the incident that she hasn't went shooting since.

The steel that Glock uses to construct their barrels and slides is actually very high quality. You simply aren't going to get the described effect from a kB unless there is something drastically wrong with the ammunition being used. Chances are, this particular ammunition would have kB'd any handgun on the market and the damage to the shooter would have been as bad or worse.

The Glock offers case support comperable to other designs, and barrels and slides at least as strong as most others on the market. The primary difference in their chambers is that the Glock chamber is about as loose as SAAMI will allow it to be, which makes the pistol less suseptible to dirt at debri and improves reliability, but may have an adverse affect on case life if you handload. But Glock's chamber and case support is only an issue if you plan to handload and only then, if you want to fire a sustained number of atomic loads for your particular cartridge. Furthermore, Glocks are no more suseptible to firing out of battery than any other modified Browning system, including the 1911. I have tested this on my Glock 20, my brother's Springfield MilSpec, and my dad's Ruger P90.

I love how the Glock vultures love to circle and swarm things like this. It really shows how desperate people are to trash the success of others.

On another note, the best way to ruin a Glock is to take away its low bore axis and short trigger reset, complicate it with additional safety mechanisms, and add a far inferior metal treatment to get rid of Glock's Tennifer metal treatment. In other words, the best way to ruin a Glock is to turn it into an XD. Anyone who says that an XD would have faired any better in this incident, or that an XD is noticeably more durable (let alone twice as much so) or reliable than a Glock is full of crap.

And finally, I just shot my Glock 20 today. Love the thing. Big surprise, no kBs. Must be a fluke :rolleyes:

[Hawkmoon]

I really don't think it is possible, one way or another, to come to much of a conclusion about an 'over-charge' rate from the very limited information we have.

On the other hand, 2 within a few days of each other makes me think about a 'bad lot' due to some problem at the factory. PD's would purchase large quantities of ammunition at one time, thus perhaps getting box after box of ammo produced in close sequence to each other. Thus, if there were a problem on the line for only a few minutes, you might get some bad rounds in your lot, but no one else would, assuming that the problem was corrected somehow.

The other one from 2 years ago sounds like maybe a statistical outlier -- can't say much about that. Could have even been a defective bbl.:)

Remember, I am making the assumption in my argument that the bbl's in question are NOT defective in some way -- that may not be true.
The ammo seems rather variable, but I respectfully think your analysis actually points to the guns rather than the ammo as being the likely culprit.

Three kabooms, two separated by a few days and one two years prior. The chances of all the ammo coming from one batch are miniscule. However ... how often does (did) the Portland PD purchase new pistols? Despite the time span between the kabooms, it seems probable that the pistols were all purchased at the same time. There may be an innate defect, either in the G21 design or perhaps just in a run of pistols that came out of the factory at the time Portland bought theirs. It just took a couple of them longer to kaboom than the first. I wonder if there are any records as to actual round count through the weapons. Maybe the guy two years ago likes guns and shhots a lot more than his colleagues.

Insufficient data, to be sure. But IMHO it appears more likely that it's a gun problem than an ammo problem.

[meef]

*** did the kaboom do?

Bend his spine clear backwards and blow his head up his greedy a$$...?

Stuff like this makes me want to :barf:

[Double Maduro]

This guy is obviously desperate. With numbers that high he can only be hoping to get enough attention to persuade Glock to settle out of court. Fifty-million?

The Oregon courts just upheld an $80,000,000 settlement against a tobacco company. I believe the paper said the officer is back at work.


I love how the Glock vultures love to circle and swarm things like this. It really shows how desperate people are to trash the success of others.


This from someone who knows nothing about it but swears it must be the ammo.


DM

[No_Brakes23]

I have no sympathy for this guy simply because he is suing both the gun manufacturer and the amo manufacturer.

It's one or the other, and if he's not sure, then it's BS on his part.

[PlayboyPenguin]

The Oregon courts just upheld an $80,000,000 settlement against a tobacco company. I believe the paper said the officer is back at work.

That is a completely different issue. Tobacco companies deliberately misled the public as to the safety of their product and even increased the amounts of dangerous addictive substances. I do not believe gun makers do this.

[carebear]

Hey Penguin. Thread drift, we agree for different reasons. Go figure.

The eeeevil tobacco companys misled people but cigs were called coffin nails and death (then cancer) sticks over, what, at least 50-60 years ago?

Must have only been misleading the unaware or patently stupid.

I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who voluntarily ingest something legal or illegal (especially something that makes you feel BAD the first few times you do it) then try to blame the manufacturer later for their own stupidity.

An actual mechanical failure of a product being used as it is intended is no parallel to smoking. Hopefully they won't settle and the jury will award damages based on actual culpability weighed against the real damage done.

ps - Glock is bad. :evil:

[PlayboyPenguin]

Hey Penguin. Thread drift, we agree for different reasons. Go figure.

The eeeevil tobacco companys misled people but cigs were called coffin nails and death (then cancer) sticks over, what, at least 50-60 years ago?

Must have only been misleading the unaware or patently stupid.

I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who voluntarily ingest something legal or illegal (especially something that makes you feel BAD the first few times you do it) then try to blame the manufacturer later for their own stupidity.

An actual mechanical failure of a product being used as it is intended is no parallel to smoking. Hopefully they won't settle and the jury will award damages based on actual culpability weighed against the real damage done.

How severe were his injuries anyway? Is he disfigured? As for tabacco I also blame people that smoke for their illnesses ( I do not smoke or drink for this very reason and I am trying to quit red meat but not as successful at that )...but big tobacco spent lots of money to mislead the public and to target the poor and the underage. People that were not aware of the danger until recent years. I feel about smoking the way I feel about AIDS....it is a tragedy that people in the 80's were struck with a horrible illness that they were not even aware existed but today if your are diagnosed I have this small part of my brain that says "you knew it was out there and still chose to engage in risky behavior".

[fantacmet]

Several people to reply to here so I'm not going answer anyone too specifically.

Grip angle, check the front of the grip not the back, lay your 1911 and Glock on top of each other and line up the barrels. Also yes before the 1911 it is true the steep angled guns were praised for grip angle. Then again not everyone is going to point the same. Even not growing up with a 1911 or any other grip angle, my hand just can't handle the steep grips(must be a factory defect on me not the gun LOL) most people feel more comfortable becuase that is what they grew up with. The point is choice. Our officers have none.

Apoligies to the Glock lovers that are blind and think that all Glocks are perfect in everyway and that all others are sh*t. It is part my blame on that and part yours. You need to stop being so blind Glock is far from perfect, and not as great as everyone says but regardless they are good firearms. I shouldn't have been so broad in my rant about Glock(although my grip angle argument still stands, as well as the overrated durability aregument) in complete fairness the failings do seem to be limited to certain model/s in general, however if you read my post completely you will notice I said something about the larger calibers. Europeans don't have as much experience. We Americans like our things large and big enough to get the job done quickly without waste. Simple a larger caliber will get the job done in fewer shots in general(although there are many other factors so I don't want to get into the debate I'm not saying it as an end all). Glock was designed for a small caliber. While I give Glock kudo's for once again venturing into uncharted waters with the .45GAP even though it was uneeded since we have the .45ACP, the Glock pistols are designed originally to handle smaller calibers, and shortening the case I would presume would raise the case pressure(someone with more knowledge on that specific area please step in and either back it up or correct me as I would like further clarity). Before someone points it out, I know the .40S&W has a much higher case pressure, but it's also significantly smaller, and in the same area you get more material between you and the pressures. They didn't redesign the entire handgun and make a larger version to accomidate the new cartridge.

Also I agree the cop should be suing one and not the other. If he's not sure he's a buffoon, but our system is setup where people no longer have to take accountability for their own actions. Just like the song my grandpappy told me back in his day a man had to answer for the way that he'd done. Now we just blame everything on someone else regardless. While it may be appropriate in this case he should pick one or the other(unless it has been proven a combination of a defect in gun and ammo). I myself have Federal Hi-Shocks in one of my mags and Hornady XTP's in the other. Today when I get paid I plan on buying another box of Hornady's or some Cor-Bon, until I do some more research and find out that Federal doesn't have a history of these problems. If they do I will likely write them a letter explaining to them I am discarding my 20-30 dollar box of ammo, and will no be buying any more from them.

As far as the amount the officer is suing for, I do admit it seems rather high, but 50K is little comfort. Consider this, imagine he was in a firefight by himself because some insane madman doesn't know the rules about because you are a badguy you are supposed to wait until you are severely out numbered, and the officer's gun blows up in that situation. Now we have a dead officer and lord knows how many other dead people since the perp is now able to continue for now without interference. Plus the gun blowing up helps the madman's ego, so he feels more invincable and kills more people just to satisfy his bloodthirst. While such things are rare they are not anywhere near as rare as we would like to believe.

Our officers are out there risking their lives everyday(well most are, some could give to ????s less, but I will not let some bad officers spoil the fact that so many are out there and not in it for the paycheck they just want to help people), and they deserve the best. I don't think Glock is the best, others will disagree with me, saying Glock is flawless in every single way. There is no best single gun. Which brings us back, our officers need a choice. The ergonomics of one gun will not work for everyone. The closest thing we have to that is the HK that has interchangeable backstraps to fit different sized hands. HK is a spectacular firearm, personally I wouldn't carry one, but thats only because I don't like they way they look or feel, but again thats a metter of personal preference, I would probably carry an HK before a Glock. How many HK's do you hear about blowing up eh? Still our officers need some choices of top firearms, but it's seems to be a popularity contest. The XD for instance has proven itself every bit as good as a Glock. Yet many departments won't even consider it, they won't consider anything other then Glock. Kudo's to departments that do.

On the 1911 issue, I'm not sure what off the shelf 1911's you are talking about being more or less unreliable. Springfield, Les Bear, Wilson, and many others offier dead reliable 1911's that are in the same price range as the Glock. For not much more they can pikcup a Kimber. Hell Kimber has been known to drop the price just for LEO and Military personel. You can't tell me these off the shelf firearms are unreliable, and not durable. Although there are more garbage 1911's then good ones, I will definately give you that one, and perhaps that is the first thought came to your mind, which I can see. We all tend to pay more attention to the bad then the good. Speaking of which, here is something I try and do and I urge each and every one of you to do. We have all seen the bad officers out there, and we all usually take some sort of action like a phonecall for a reprimand, I have done it myself, and gotten an officer suspended without pay for 4 weeks, plus a formal letter of reprimand in his record. I have also called to say an officer has done an exemplary job. Doing more then he absolutely had to. Some supervisors don't like this stating their officers are only supposed to do their job and nothing more, PFT screw them. Next time you see an officer doing more then just his job, something where you go hey, I respect this man, look what he is doing, good for him, do everyone a favor, let the officer know you think he is doing a good job, it's mor eincentive for him to keep it up, also make a phone call, tell the supervisor, it will generally help to keep the good cops on the streets more often then bad cops. Plus just like our military men, good cops need a thank you for putting their ass on the line every single day. An no I am not a cop, nobody in my family is, my family hates cops, because of a few bad apples, but they could still use the encouragement, it's better for everyone overall.

Rev. Michael

[buzz_knox]

What might have happened during a firefight is irrelevant. The sole grounds upon which to base an award of damages are those damages he actually occurred. $53 million is ridiculous.

As for people getting over their love of "Glock perfection," the most heated statements one way or another have been yours. Perhaps you should reconsider your hatred of Glock. Glock isn't perfect by a long shot, and there are legitimate arguments to be made against them. But there are legitimate arguments in favor of them as well, which soundly defeat the "Europeans don't know nothing about guns and Americans" do argument. I've used "European" guns for years, because outside of the 1911, no American sidearm has been able to fill my needs in terms of ergonomics and reliability. Guess maybe they know a thing or two.

As for HKs blowing up, they are out there. Due to the fewer numbers of HKs in service, they just aren't as visible. Plus, no one goes out of their way to show their kBs, nor Colt kBs, nor M1A kBs. All of which are available if you choose to look for them.

[1911Tuner]

Glock's chamber design and Federal ammo...:scrutiny:

Yep. Seems that this has come up a time or three. Add a little too much headspace to that combo and it's a real possibility. Federal and Blazer aluminum cased ammo seem to be the two worst offenders as to case bulging in the unsupported area when the headspace is a little too close to max spec...or beyond maximum allowable.

1911 Ramp'n'Throat Job disciples beware! Glocksters...have your headspace gauged. That is all!

[Vern Humphrey]

That is a completely different issue. Tobacco companies deliberately misled the public as to the safety of their product and even increased the amounts of dangerous addictive substances. I do not believe gun makers do this.

My mother smoked. I can remember her referring to cigarettes as "coffin nails" and "cancer sticks" back in the 1940s. Nobody was fooled or mislead. Everybody who smoked knew the dangers.

[fantacmet]

I'm not saying that Glocks are bad guns, I am only saying our officers need choice, as there is no one best gun, it depends on the individual. If there was a single best for everything we wouldn't have nor would we need choices. I believe I stated that in my post. I think you may need to reread my post as I also never stated anything about Europeans don't know guns and Americans do, all I stated was that the experiences between the two cultures differ as to their area of caliber, which is size, their ideals differ from ours on matters of size nto just in firearms but overall. We Americans are rather quirky when compared to the rest of the world. We like our cars big, our meals big, are guns big, we like everything big, it's not bad nor good just different.

Your point about the HK's blowing up not being heard of as much because there are fewer in service is well taken and I stand corrected on that point. Perhaps there are alot more in other parts of the world that blow as they may be more prevailent there, then we don't hear about such matters from overseas, so you HK point is once again well taken.

Some people seem to be head up to judge me on their own shortcomings. I may hate or dislike something but that doesn't mean I won't give the credit where credit is due. I stated that my "hatred" of Glock is a personal thing, I just don't like them. I also stated they are fine guns. So please quit judging me on yours or someone elses shortcomings, whether I hate something or not is a non-issue to my ability to treat them fairly.

One other point I forgot to mention in my last post, these idiots suing tobacco companies is just plain retarded. It's nothing more then an easy new way to get money. I'm a smoker, I know the risks, I know my family history of not generally being affected by them, but still, if I get lung cancer thats my own damn fault. Quit suing people for your own stupidity and take respnsibility for your own actions. It sounds as though most on here would agree with me on that part. People who are suing tobacco companies are not taking responsibility. We hold drunk drivers accountable when they kill some poor family of 4 on a sunday drive home from church, we don't sue the alcahol manufacturers. However perhaps thats next. SIGH. When did we start breeding such lazy bleeding heart morons, that refuse to realize they are not perfect?

Rev. Michael

[bowfin]

We really aren't sure what Officer Candidate Pirv and his instructors might have added to the making of this incident. Unfortunately, people don't remain in the same position doing the same action at the time of the failure like an inanimate object does. People can also take steps to hide or obscure any wrongdoing on their part.

I bring this up because I remember a large Police Department that claimed they had a batch of defective ammo because a detective sitting on the stool in the Men's room supposedly dropped a round, and it went off, discharging a bullet up through the ceiling and into the room above. That's right, a dropped cartridge did this, according to the cop and the department that backed him up. Can't punish a guy because he was issued bad ammo like you would one who, say, was playing with his gun on the john and he had an accidental discharge, could you?

[Creeping Incrementalism]

My mother smoked. I can remember her referring to cigarettes as "coffin nails" and "cancer sticks" back in the 1940s. Nobody was fooled or mislead. Everybody who smoked knew the dangers.

In the movie 30 Seconds over Tokyo, they use one of those phrases to describe cigarettets.

Many of the same people who successfully sued the tobacco companies, turned around and started suing gun manufacturers.

This from someone who knows nothing about it but swears it must be the ammo.

How does MTMilitiaman now nothing about it?

[carpettbaggerr]

Hmmmm.

BOTH OFFICERS STATED NO NOTICEABLE DIFFERENCE UPON FIRING.

And yet:
BOTH HANDGUNS HAD CASINGS EXPAND AND FAILED TO EXTRACT. THE GASES ESCAPED BY BLOWING A HOLE THROUGH THE SIDE OF THE CASING TEARING AWAY THE BOTTOM HALF OF THE BARREL AT THE LOCKING LUGS, BENDING THEM DOWNWARD AT APPROXIMATELY 30 DEGREE ANGLE. THE GASES CONTINUED THROUGH THE TRIGGER HOUSING AND MAGAZINE WELL, DESTROYING BOTH COMPONENTS COMPLETELY. ADDITIONALLY THE UPPER WAS SEPARATED FROM THE LOWER, BLOWING EACH UPPER SEVERAL FEET FORWARD OF THE FIRING POSITION.

So the guns usually blow up when they are fired? Or the officers didn't feel any difference when their firearms spontaneously disassembled?

[Pafrmu]

If police didn't carry guns, we wouldn't have these problems.;)

But seriously,

Can we start suing pool makers and the water company when people drown in pools?

Can we start suing paper companies for paper cuts?

Can we start suing knife companies when we cut ourselves?

Can we start suing ...

[stickslinger]

OK. The injured cop walks into a lawyers office and says "I want to sue".

The lawyer, who has advertised himself and is accepted to be a subject matter expert by the cop says.."okay, we're going to sue this person, that company, and that company, and the other company for a gazzillion dollars even though we know at least half of those listed in the suit had nothing to do with the failure. Then, after they offer to settle and you pay me my share, you'll probably end with 50,000 after taxes. Sound good?

The cop goes "ugh, okay you're the expert get after it"!

A few questions for you fella's hammering on the cop.

1: What in the world makes you think he walked into a lawyers office and dictated all the terms and figures. My bet is he was just following the advice of the lawyer that said "look hoss, I'll get you a big settlement and it won't cost you a thing!"

2: Which of you high principled guys would tell the lawyer AFTER he had explained the way the court system currently works, his fees, and the odds of you getting a fraction of what you asked for, would say "no.....it didnt' hurt that bad, I demand that you only file suit for medical and lawyer expenses and maybe get me free gun out of it"

Speak up now!

I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying don't blame the cop for following what he and others considered to be advice from an expert. Blame the lawyer and start talking about tort reform with as much enthusiasm as you talk about the 2nd amendment.

[Vern Humphrey]

In the movie 30 Seconds over Tokyo, they use one of those phrases to describe cigarettets.

Many of the same people who successfully sued the tobacco companies, turned around and started suing gun manufacturers.


My mother left a 14-year old daughter. If anyone is a real victim of tobacco, it's my sister -- she lost her mother and she didn't smoke.

Guess how much my sister got out of the billions and billions paid out in the "tobacco settlement?":mad:

(For those who don't know how the system works, the answer is, "not squat.")

[Double Maduro]

In the movie 30 Seconds over Tokyo, they use one of those phrases to describe cigarettets.

Many of the same people who successfully sued the tobacco companies, turned around and started suing gun manufacturers.

How does MTMilitiaman now nothing about it?

Unless he works for Glock, Federal, the PPB or a company or agency that investigated this incident, he knows no more than anyone who has read all of the stuff on the internet and in the papers. Basically we know bupkuss.

Glock and their supporters say it is the ammo.

Federal says it is a problem with Glock.

I say, let them go to court and prove what caused the incident. If it is the ammo then none of us will buy Federal again. If it is the gun then they will have to redesign the gun to fix the problem or more than likely be sued out of existance.

I don't know of anyone who knows for sure what caused the kaboom. I do know that the PPB and their armorer think it was the gun, that is why they got rid of them.

By the way, wasn't there another big PD that just got rid of their Glocks for some problem or other? Seems like I read about it a week or three ago.

My point in the original statement is that the Glock believers will blame the ammo, without question or evidence. The Glock haters will blame the gun, without question or evidence.

Those of us with open minds want to know what caused the kabooms, then we will act accordingly. Until we know, we can do nothing about it but argue.

I have said it before, the only thing I have against Glocks is that I have never found one that fit my hands, if I ever did I might buy it.

DM

[Double Maduro]

If police didn't carry guns, we wouldn't have these problems.;)

But seriously,

Can we start suing pool makers and the water company when people drown in pools?

Can we start suing paper companies for paper cuts?

Can we start suing knife companies when we cut ourselves?

Can we start suing ...

In this country we can sue anyone for anything. If the pool, the paper and the knife were not defective, the plaintiff would probably lose.

Can we sue a restaurant because we spilled coffee on ourself?

DM

[Vern Humphrey]

I say, let them go to court and prove what caused the incident.
That would be good advice if courts were in the business of finding out the truth. Unfortunately, they're staffed and run by lawyers (who lack the technical expertise to find the truth) and they're all about making money for lawyers instead.


In this country we can sue anyone for anything. If the pool, the paper and the knife were not defective, the plaintiff would probably lose.

If the lawyer failed to convince the jury the pool, paper and knife were defective, he'd lose. Unless the lawyer convinced the jury that he was a poor man and deserved to win.

Can we sue a restaurant because we spilled coffee on ourself?

DM

Ask McDonald's.:D

[Cosmoline]

If the pistol really did blow up in his face, and he was using the proper ammunition at the proper PSI, then Glock should pay. A detonation is bad, but even worse is a firearm that blows up into your head as opposed to up and away from you.

[buzz_knox]

A few questions for you fella's hammering on the cop.

1: What in the world makes you think he walked into a lawyers office and dictated all the terms and figures. My bet is he was just following the advice of the lawyer that said "look hoss, I'll get you a big settlement and it won't cost you a thing!"

2: Which of you high principled guys would tell the lawyer AFTER he had explained the way the court system currently works, his fees, and the odds of you getting a fraction of what you asked for, would say "no.....it didnt' hurt that bad, I demand that you only file suit for medical and lawyer expenses and maybe get me free gun out of it"

Speak up now!

I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying don't blame the cop for following what he and others considered to be advice from an expert. Blame the lawyer and start talking about tort reform with as much enthusiasm as you talk about the 2nd amendment.

1. No matter how much the "expert" told him, for a person to equate scratches and shock with $53 million dollars in damages is nonsensical. That is an amount that will shock the jury into thinking that the cop is a money grabber slime bag if it goes to trial. And the cop has to review the complaint before it gets filed, so he saw the figure.

2. See 1. I know how the system works, and I can guess this cop does too. $53 million is so out of synch with his damages that the pretty much nothing else matters. Defense counsel likes artificially high damage claims. Pain and suffering that is 60 times compensatories? Punitive damages that are 1000 times comps? Oh, yeah. Give me that case to defend. I might skip the pretrial motions just to hear an arbitrator yell at the cop and his counsel.

[Cosmoline]

I have no sympathy for this guy simply because he is suing both the gun manufacturer and the amo manufacturer.

It's one or the other, and if he's not sure, then it's BS on his part.

This is a tactical issue. If he sues the maker alone, they will blame the ammo. If he sues the ammo maker, they will blame the gun maker. So he sues both and lets them point fingers at each other. From his point of view, he doesn't care which one did it. He just wants his money.

[JohnKSa]

WARNING! BEFORE reading farther, please read the disclaimer at the end of the post.Glock was designed for a small caliber. While I give Glock kudo's for once again venturing into uncharted waters with the .45GAP even though it was uneeded since we have the .45ACP, the Glock pistols are designed originally to handle smaller calibers, and shortening the case I would presume would raise the case pressure(someone with more knowledge on that specific area please step in and either back it up or correct me as I would like further clarity). Before someone points it out, I know the .40S&W has a much higher case pressure, but it's also significantly smaller, and in the same area you get more material between you and the pressures. They didn't redesign the entire handgun and make a larger version to accomidate the new cartridge.The pistol in this case (Glock 21) was chambered for the .45ACP, NOT the .45GAP. The .45GAP had not even been introduced when this incident occurred. While you're correct about the .45GAP operating at slightly higher pressure than the .45ACP (it actually operates at .45ACP +P pressures) that's all irrelevant since the GAP isn't involved in this incident at all.

In a VERY loose sense, I guess you could say that the Glock 21 was designed for a smaller caliber. The basic design for the Glock 21 was derived from the Glock 20 which was designed for the 10mm--a cartridge which operates at nearly twice the pressure of the .45ACP. It was not at ALL based on the .40S&W Glocks which is what I think you may be trying to say (it would be impossible for that to be true since the .40 S&W Glocks were designed AFTER the Glock 21), nor was it based on the 9mm Glocks.

The Glock 20 WAS a complete redesign of the entire handgun from the original 9mm design to make the 10mm pistol. That pistol (the Glock 20) was then adapted to the .45ACP and was called the Glock 21.

If you're going to be so vocal about your dislike of Glocks, you should probably learn a bit more about them. ;)

[MTMilitiaman]

Thank you John.

[Optical Serenity]

While I've used Glocks for many years without any issues... I hope whatever the problem is gets resolved. I've been eyeballing a Glock 21 for some time.

[Mannlicher]

Bad things happen to good people. Bad things happen to bad people too.
When they do, the courts are there to address the issue. Life goes on.