Judge allows discrimination against volunteer border-patrol group


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Desertdog
February 9, 2006, 05:15 PM
The MM lawyer, Ackerman said he's "never seen someone argue so strongly for intolerance, exclusion, and fear-based discrimination."

Judge upholds parade's ban on Minutemen
Allows discrimination against volunteer border-patrol group
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48737

A judge in Southern California rejected a temporary restraining order that would allow the volunteer border-patrol group Minuteman Project to participate in Laguna Beach's Patriots' Day Parade.

Judge Michael Brenner of Orange County Superior Court ruled the state's broad civil rights laws did not apply to the private organization running the event.

The Minuteman Project's founder, Jim Gilchrist – who ran unsuccessfully for Congress last year in Orange County – says the Laguna Beach Patriot's Day Parade Association rejected a request Jan. 18 to have a float in the event, because the group is political and he is "too controversial."

The application – rejected just an hour after submission – was turned in two days before the deadline, the group pointed out in its complaint, filed by the public-interest firm Lively & Ackerman.

For the March 4 event, the Minutemen proposed a float with dancers performing a choreographed act with binoculars and folding chairs to imitate its volunteer border patrollers. Another group of actors were to be in Revolutionary War costumes. The float would be followed by about 400 volunteers, including many military veterans.

The parade association said it rejected the entry on political grounds, citing a policy of not allowing groups with a religious or political affiliation or message.

The Minuteman Project's lead attorney, Richard D. Ackerman, said he's "never been so happy to lose."

"As a conservative attorney, it was a sheer joy and hysterical to watch Laguna Beach's city attorney argue that a case allowing open discrimination against gays was the controlling case in this matter," Ackerman explained. "The hypocrisy of the parade association and the city was staggering."

Ackerman said he's "never seen someone argue so strongly for intolerance, exclusion, and fear-based discrimination."

"The good news is that whether we win or lose on appeal, the laws preventing discrimination against 'undesirables' will be applied equally to all groups, or it will be fully affirmed that all of the California Legislature's anti-discrimination laws do not apply to churches, parades, Boy Scout organizations and others affected by state-control over associational and expressive rights," he said. "We have a number of clients that would be happy to see either result."

The case likely will be appealed and go to trial, regardless of whether the Minuteman Project will be able to march in the parade this year, Ackerman pointed out.

"I intend on sending a letter to the city and the Parade Association inquiring as to whether they really want to instill law that says its acceptable to discriminate against gays and others," he added. "They may get what they want at the appellate level simply by shooting themselves in the foot. I welcome them to do so."

The Minuteman Project's complaint pointed out the group Peace Vigil, which has been accepted for this year's parade, is a well-known political advocacy organization that regularly protests the Iraq war. Another group in the parade, La Playa, openly supports controversial day-labor centers for illegal immigrants and is associated with a church.

"They say the Minuteman Project is controversial, but so is the gay group and so is the vigil for peace," Gilchrist told the Associated Press last month. "… "I have no objection to any of these other groups, so why are they discriminating against us?"

The complaint, which named Peace Vigil and La Playa as nominal defendants, asserted their participation in the parade is "unfair and misleading" to the general public.

"It is false and misleading for them to represent to the association that they are nonpolitical," the complaint says. "Or, in the alternative, it is unfair and deceptive for the association to claim that it does not do business with political/religious organizations, but yet allow these two groups to participate."

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agricola
February 9, 2006, 05:27 PM
If they cant go as "Minutemen" I am sure they can just as easily go and pay their respects as individuals. Anyone seeking to hijack a Rememberance Day (as it is over here) for any ends other than rememberance and gratitude to those who fought doesnt deserve to take part IMHO.

longeyes
February 9, 2006, 06:06 PM
The "hi-jacking" is being done by the illegal aliens and their lobbyists.

longeyes
February 9, 2006, 06:09 PM
Maybe this low-level ruling's an anomaly. My fear is that the Establishment has already signed on fully to the illegal alien agenda and that we can expect any attempts to stop the flood to be stigmatized by "Authority."

Biker
February 9, 2006, 06:29 PM
*If* La Raza had been denied, and that's a big, doubtful if, you can bet that the ACLU would dive right into their defense.
Biker

ChiefPilot
February 9, 2006, 07:21 PM
I'm all for the MinuteMen, but if this is a parade being organized by a private party, why shouldn't they be allowed to choose who they will and will not allow to participate?

I don't think the Boy Scouts should allow girls in, and I don't think the Girl Scouts should allow boys to join, either. And I don't think the government has any business saying otherwise. I don't understand how this case is any different.

ArmedBear
February 9, 2006, 07:26 PM
"the Minutemen proposed a float with dancers performing a choreographed act with binoculars and folding chairs"

http://www.southpark-world.net/images/cartman_ch.gif

That, too, sounds openly gay.:p

longeyes
February 9, 2006, 07:26 PM
Is this parade using public facilities? Streets? Involving law enforcement?

Maybe they should move it to private grounds.

ArmedBear
February 9, 2006, 07:27 PM
Is this parade using public facilities? Streets? Involving law enforcement?

Maybe they should move it to private grounds.

My thoughts, too.

GruntII
February 9, 2006, 07:28 PM
I'm all for the MinuteMen, but if this is a parade being organized by a private party, why shouldn't they be allowed to choose who they will and will not allow to participate?

I don't think the Boy Scouts should allow girls in, and I don't think the Girl Scouts should allow boys to join, either. And I don't think the government has any business saying otherwise. I don't understand how this case is any different.

Except they have to get a permit to use the city streets which equeals support form the city ,even though extremely small, It the Parade was taking place totally on private property the Minutemen wouldn't havea leg to stand on.

ArmedBear
February 9, 2006, 07:30 PM
Except they have to get a permit to use the city streets which equeals support form the city ,even though extremely small, It the Parade was taking place totally on private property the Minutemen wouldn't havea leg to stand on.

Laguna Beach is a VERY crowded, very expensive beach town with a lot of art galleries, restaurants and other businesses that depend on people who visit from nearby areas and other parts of the US and the world.

A parade stops traffic in a crowded place with one-lane streets. That is actually a pretty big deal, not just extremely small support.

ChiefPilot
February 9, 2006, 07:35 PM
Except they have to get a permit to use the city streets which equeals support form the city ,even though extremely small, It the Parade was taking place totally on private property the Minutemen wouldn't havea leg to stand on.

If the city gave the organization a permit for no charge, then I might agree - but the city doesn't do that. Permits cost money, and since the private organization had to pay for the permit , they should have some control over their parade.

If it was a city-sponsored parade, that'd be something else entirely.

Standing Wolf
February 9, 2006, 09:00 PM
My fear is that the Establishment has already signed on fully to the illegal alien agenda and that we can expect any attempts to stop the flood to be stigmatized by "Authority."

Illegal aliens consistently vote for representatives of the Democratic (sic) party.

c_yeager
February 9, 2006, 11:18 PM
Except they have to get a permit to use the city streets which equeals support form the city ,even though extremely small, It the Parade was taking place totally on private property the Minutemen wouldn't havea leg to stand on.

Right, and the minutemen could obtain their own permit and have their own parade.

Desertdog
February 10, 2006, 01:26 AM
Right, and the minutemen could obtain their own permit and have their own parade.
Do you think the city would give them a permit for a parade? I really doubt it.

It is a great idea though. Just think, all kinds of gun owners and gun rights organizations in a parade.

xd9fan
February 10, 2006, 09:52 AM
.......more proof of results-based jursprudence.

ChiefPilot
February 10, 2006, 10:37 AM
Do you think the city would give them a permit for a parade? I really doubt it.

It is a great idea though. Just think, all kinds of gun owners and gun rights organizations in a parade.


If they didn't, there would be a valid legal challenge and I cannot see how the City would be able to justify it as they are a public entity, not a private organization.

unixguy
February 11, 2006, 06:51 PM
"As a conservative attorney, it was a sheer joy and hysterical to watch Laguna Beach's city attorney argue that a case allowing open discrimination against gays was the controlling case in this matter," Ackerman explained. "The hypocrisy of the parade association and the city was staggering."

Was he on his own time, or was he arguing this case in an official capacity as city attorney? (I do think it's plausible that the writer might have left out the detail if he was on his own time...)

crazed_ss
February 11, 2006, 08:05 PM
Rules are rules. No politiical crap in the parade.

If the minutemen dont like it, they can have their own Anti-Mexican parade here in CA and watch 10 people show up.
Im not a big fan of the minutemen..they were here last week causing trouble.

"“The parade is a speech. It's expression ... and they have a right, within certain limits, to put on the parade they want to put on,” Orange County Superior Court Judge Michael Brenner said."

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/state/20060207-2213-ca-paradepolitics.html

If a group of Neo-Nazis was putting on a parade and decide blacks couldnt be in the parade, they would be well within their rights. No judge should force them to allow blacks or whoever else into their parade if they dont want to.

crazed_ss
February 11, 2006, 08:11 PM
Do you think the city would give them a permit for a parade? I really doubt it.

It is a great idea though. Just think, all kinds of gun owners and gun rights organizations in a parade.

Yes they could get their own permit.

The Klan and other racist groups get parade permits all the time.

Biker
February 11, 2006, 09:03 PM
Rules are rules. No politiical crap in the parade.

If the minutemen dont like it, they can have their own Anti-Mexican parade here in CA and watch 10 people show up.
Im not a big fan of the minutemen..they were here last week causing trouble.

"?The parade is a speech. It's expression ... and they have a right, within certain limits, to put on the parade they want to put on,? Orange County Superior Court Judge Michael Brenner said."

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/state/20060207-2213-ca-paradepolitics.html

If a group of Neo-Nazis was putting on a parade and decide blacks couldnt be in the parade, they would be well within their rights. No judge should force them to allow blacks or whoever else into their parade if they dont want to.

The intimation being that the Minutemen are anti-mexican? You also appear to be lumping them in with the KKK. Am I wrong?
Biker

Biker
February 11, 2006, 09:05 PM
Yes they could get their own permit.

The Klan and other racist groups get parade permits all the time.
Once again, you seem to associate the Minutemen with the Klan. Why?
Biker

longeyes
February 11, 2006, 09:32 PM
That, of course, is the game plan: Stigmatize all efforts to secure our borders as "racist."

Biker
February 11, 2006, 09:47 PM
Yup. I think that xenophobe comes next. I'm still trying to figure out "anti-mexican".
To the best of my knowledge, Mexico is a country, not a race.
Anyone can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Biker

crazed_ss
February 11, 2006, 10:40 PM
Once again, you seem to associate the Minutemen with the Klan. Why?
Biker

I'm just pointing out that people with objectionable point of views get parade permits all the time and they're not forced to include anyone they dont want to. It's their parade, they allow whoever they want to participate.

I dunno.. the minutemen.. I dont get a good vibe from them. Maybe it's because when they show them out on the border, they're all a bunch of old white guys with confederate flags trying to look badass with their guns. It doesnt look like Americans trying to protect the borders. Looks like a bunch of bored old guys with guns with nothing better to do.

Come down to San Diego and you'd realize the immigration is bigger than shutting down the borders with guns and kicking out Mexicans. San Diego/Tijuana is an interwined society.. economically, socially, culturally. The border is just a technicallity. Withouth Mexican immigrants, the agriculture economy here ends. That simple.

My mom does real estate down in North Carolina. She says people down there are hating the influx of Mexicans, but they're loving all the new construction and real estate developments.

This is the reason Bush hasnt cracked down on the border. IMO, illegals benefit the US more than they cause harm.

longeyes
February 11, 2006, 10:55 PM
IF we need Mexicans, and I say IF, let's get it all out into the open and talk hard facts and hard numbers. And let's do whatever we do under the aegis of The Law. Winking at illegality isn't the way to run a great country. The reality, as I see it, is that Bush is afraid of honest and thorough debate on the full impact of illegal immigration. He has to make a better case than his impassioned religious conviction that "hard-working moms and dads" have some unacknowledged right to come across the border and work here.

Your characterization, crazed_ss, of the Minutemen is both inaccurate and insulting. Stereotypes are not going to help resolve a difficult issue.

Biker
February 11, 2006, 10:59 PM
I'm just pointing out that people with objectionable point of views get parade permits all the time and they're not forced to include anyone they dont want to. It's their parade, they allow whoever they want to participate.

I dunno.. the minutemen.. I dont get a good vibe from them. Maybe it's because when they show them out on the border, they're all a bunch of old white guys with confederate flags trying to look badass with their guns. It doesnt look like Americans trying to protect the borders. Looks like a bunch of bored old guys with guns with nothing better to do.

Come down to San Diego and you'd realize the immigration is bigger than shutting down the borders with guns and kicking out Mexicans. San Diego/Tijuana is an interwined society.. economically, socially, culturally. The border is just a technicallity. Withouth Mexican immigrants, the agriculture economy here ends. That simple.

My mom does real estate down in North Carolina. She says people down there are hating the influx of Mexicans, but they're loving all the new construction and real estate developments.

This is the reason Bush hasnt cracked down on the border. IMO, illegals benefit the US more than they cause harm.

Well, I believe that you have an agenda, guy. Would you feel the same about the Minutemen if they were just a bunch of old black guys? Hispanic guys? 'Cause they are both represented in the Minutemen. Tell ya the truth, I just don't think that you're being honest.
Biker

longeyes
February 11, 2006, 11:00 PM
Withouth Mexican immigrants, the agriculture economy here ends. That simple.

Let me get this straight: we need TWENTY MILLION Mexicans to work the fields in America? And how many more unskilled, uneducated laborers are we going to need over the NEXT ten years?

This is NOT about filling realistic labor needs but about something far larger and largely undiscussed.

Illegal Mexican immigration stopped being about agri-biz and border areas a long, long time ago.

crazed_ss
February 11, 2006, 11:03 PM
I havent seen much diversity in their group.. but maybe their is.
Im just going off what I've seen on TV..

We all know how accurate that is :)

Biker
February 11, 2006, 11:10 PM
I havent seen much diversity in their group.. but maybe their is.
Im just going off what I've seen on TV..

We all know how accurate that is :)
I've never seen any Minutemen sporting Confederate Flags. Got a link?
And you stated that "they were here last week causing trouble". Link?
I think that you're BS'n.
Prove me wrong?
Biker

Art Eatman
February 11, 2006, 11:18 PM
crazed ss, from articles in such sources as the LA Times, I have read that the net COST to California from illegals is some Six billion dollars per year. Social services, schools, medicine, crime.

I have red that in teh greater LA Basin, some 64 hospitals have either completely closed or have closed their emergency rooms. Some 25 more are due to follow that course this year or next. The reports claim that it is due to non-pay in emergency rooms. Doctors and nurses state that about one-half of the non-pay patients are illegals.

So, tell me again of the good that illegals do. Oh, and I suggest you don't have a serilous car wreck in the greater LA Basin...

Art

Desertdog
February 11, 2006, 11:33 PM
It doesnt look like Americans trying to protect the borders.
They'er not. They observe and report.

What I would like to see "trying to protect the borders" from illegals, and smugglers, is a bunch of National Guard troopers with .50 caliber MGs mounted on humvees.

Along with that would be some type of green card program like we had for years. The citizens of Mexico, and other countries, would be able to work legally and go back and forth between their jobs and home.

Legal immigrants, fine.

Illegal Aliens, no matter from where, NO.

crazed_ss
February 12, 2006, 12:33 AM
crazed ss, from articles in such sources as the LA Times, I have read that the net COST to California from illegals is some Six billion dollars per year. Social services, schools, medicine, crime.

I have red that in teh greater LA Basin, some 64 hospitals have either completely closed or have closed their emergency rooms. Some 25 more are due to follow that course this year or next. The reports claim that it is due to non-pay in emergency rooms. Doctors and nurses state that about one-half of the non-pay patients are illegals.

So, tell me again of the good that illegals do. Oh, and I suggest you don't have a serilous car wreck in the greater LA Basin...

Art

I havent seen those numbers about illegals and hospitals. Makes sense though. Many Americans take advatange of the cheap labor provided by illegals.. Especially in the construction, agricultural, and service industry.. they deserve some services. They make money here and spend it. They're part of the economy. Wells Fargo is even offering home loans to illegals now. It's all about the almight dollar.. It's capitalism. it's America.

I live about nine miles from the San Ysidro port of Entry though. Half the cars in my area are sporting license plates from Baja California (Mexico). Some of the stores here even accept pesos. English is a secondary language. When I go to businesses, they often use Spanish with me even though Im black. Doesnt bother me. I dont really see it as in an "invasion".. just people taking advantage of oppurtunity. Just like all the huddled masses that came over from Europe through Ellis Island.

I'm not too concerned about illegals hitting my car. I have car insurance. Plus they all drive live grandmas anyway. Probably cause they dont want to involve the Police and get turned over to immigration.

crazed_ss
February 12, 2006, 12:39 AM
I've never seen any Minutemen sporting Confederate Flags. Got a link?
And you stated that "they were here last week causing trouble". Link?
I think that you're BS'n.
Prove me wrong?
Biker

Here's an article about the minutemen here this week. At least they were going after the root of the problem this time instead of showing off their .45's and AR's down on the border.
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2006/02/05/news/top_stories/19_07_212_4_06.txt

Ill see if I can find the pic of the flag.

EDIT:

Pics like this is why I'm not a fan of these guys..
http://www.boingboing.net/images/minutemen/MinutemanYoungGun.jpg
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/050406/050406_meeks_minuteman_guns_bcol3p.standard.jpg

If they're just going to observe and report, why do they need to sport the fancy schmancy tactical gear? There was a thread on this board about them selecting the SU-16 as their official rifle. If they're just out to observe, why do they need an official rifle?

longeyes
February 12, 2006, 01:37 AM
I havent seen those numbers about illegals and hospitals. Makes sense though. Many Americans take advatange of the cheap labor provided by illegals.. Especially in the construction, agricultural, and service industry.. they deserve some services. They make money here and spend it. They're part of the economy. Wells Fargo is even offering home loans to illegals now. It's all about the almight dollar.. It's capitalism. it's America.

I live about nine miles from the San Ysidro port of Entry though. Half the cars in my area are sporting license plates from Baja California (Mexico). Some of the stores here even accept pesos. English is a secondary language. When I go to businesses, they often use Spanish with me even though Im black. Doesnt bother me. I dont really see it as in an "invasion".. just people taking advantage of oppurtunity. Just like all the huddled masses that came over from Europe through Ellis Island.

I'm not too concerned about illegals hitting my car. I have car insurance. Plus they all drive live grandmas anyway. Probably cause they dont want to involve the Police and get turned over to immigration.

How does that commercial go? "Don't bother me, I'm eating!"

Sure, they're taking pesos, English is a second language, they drive without legal driver's licenses, the banks just see them as a new profit center, and as for the social costs, well, heck, they deserve some services because, well, they're on this side of the border... No problema.

By the way, Emma Lazarus was a well-heeled New York Marxist.

hwp
February 12, 2006, 04:45 AM
Many Americans take advatange of the cheap labor provided by illegals.. Especially in the construction, agricultural, and service industry.. they deserve some services. They make money here and spend it. They're part of the economy. Wells Fargo is even offering home loans to illegals now. It's all about the almight dollar.. It's capitalism. it's America.

I live about nine miles from the San Ysidro port of Entry though. Half the cars in my area are sporting license plates from Baja California (Mexico). Some of the stores here even accept pesos. English is a secondary language. When I go to businesses, they often use Spanish with me even though Im black. Doesnt bother me. I dont really see it as in an "invasion".. just people taking advantage of oppurtunity. Just like all the huddled masses that came over from Europe through Ellis Island.

I'm not too concerned about illegals hitting my car. I have car insurance. Plus they all drive live grandmas anyway. Probably cause they dont want to involve the Police and get turned over to immigration.


I'm sorry you have to live like that.:barf:I suggest a rapid escape.

God help us if high roaders are already giving up.

Biker
February 12, 2006, 10:51 AM
Here's an article about the minutemen here this week. At least they were going after the root of the problem this time instead of showing off their .45's and AR's down on the border.
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2006/02/05/news/top_stories/19_07_212_4_06.txt

Ill see if I can find the pic of the flag.

EDIT:

Pics like this is why I'm not a fan of these guys..
http://www.boingboing.net/images/minutemen/MinutemanYoungGun.jpg
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/050406/050406_meeks_minuteman_guns_bcol3p.standard.jpg

If they're just going to observe and report, why do they need to sport the fancy schmancy tactical gear? There was a thread on this board about them selecting the SU-16 as their official rifle. If they're just out to observe, why do they need an official rifle?

I don't see what the problem is with their gear. I don't know where the photo was taken, but open carry may be their only legal option. I see nothing objectionable about any of the photos. Why do they bother you?
Methinks you're being disengenuous.
Biker

PCGS65
February 12, 2006, 11:23 AM
Hey Biker, your up early.
You know I don't see anything special about those pics with the rebel flag on the shoulder T-shirt and the bandana. Heck I was in a grocery store in mississippi last summer with my son and saw more rebel flags than that.
I was expecting men on horseback with civil war sized flags.
crazed_ss I do feel sorry for you though having to live in a situation like that.:uhoh:

Langenator
February 12, 2006, 12:52 PM
Back to the original topic:

If the city attorney is arguing in favor of the the parade organizers, that would seem to imply that the city is in some way sponsoring the parade, assuming the said attorney's time is being paid for by the city government.

If that is indeed the case, then the parade would seem to have two options:

1) Let the Minutemen participate

2) Keep out any group that is identified with any sort of political or religious viewpoint. Since pretty much any group with enough members to sponsor marchers and/or floats can be identified in some way with some sort of political or religious viewpoint, this would exclude just about everyone except the school marching bands and the military color guard.

ArmedBear
February 12, 2006, 01:04 PM
I don't see what the problem is with their gear. I don't know where the photo was taken, but open carry may be their only legal option. I see nothing objectionable about any of the photos. Why do they bother you?
Methinks you're being disengenuous.
Biker

I agree.

As another San Diegan, I have failed to see the "trouble" they've caused. I'd venture so far as to say that the assertion is a load of crap. Groups who support illegal immigration have caused a lot more, and have committed violent acts. It's on film.

The Minutemen have carried openly in an area frequented by smugglers and cross-border drug gangs. It's within their rights, as well as yours and mine, where they are. I know people who live in some of the small towns out there, and they all carry when they go for a walk. I think LE just looks the other way when they carry concealed, as long as there's no trouble. But the Minutemen can't take that chance, and San Diego doesn't issue CCW's to those who aren't "connected."

Crying "racist" when one has no substantive argument is pathetic and I, for one, am tired of this kind of mindless intimidation used by people who can't win a debate on the merits. In fact, this grade-school tactic makes me tune out.

The notion that San Diego and Tijuana are a unified region and that the border is artificial is a canard. Artists and academics like to spew this, but there's not much to support the assertion. That doesn't mean there's no interaction between the two places, or that we aren't friendly to each other; but there's a lot of interaction between Seattle and Japan, too. That doesn't make Washington and Japan a single place.

Come visit and try to tell me that the two cities are really just one place. No one from out of town or another country has EVER gotten that impression. The reaction is generally, "Wow! We went from one of the US' most expensive cities straight to the third world in less than a half hour! What a trip!"

All that said, I like a lot of Mexicans, and I think that the threat supposedly posed by illegals is overblown. Still, I want to see a legal, above-board, honest program of cross-border labor. What we now have is not good for California, and it's not good for the honest hard-working illegals, either. The currenst situation only benefits corrupt employers and cross-border criminals, and breeds further disrespect for the law.

And yes, most tagging here, and there's a shocking amount, is gang-related and in Spanish. Things are not all rosy. Not everyone comes here to work hard and support a poor family, not by a long shot.

Art Eatman
February 12, 2006, 03:17 PM
The parade is supposed to not allow political gtroups, per the organizers. Thus the judge's decision is correct. However, the organizers have in the past allowed groups which are indeed political, so their refusal of the participation by the Minutemen is hypocritical. Political correctness.

crazed ss, when one is outdoors in rough country, one wears appropriate clothing. The observations done in the desert are not practical for somebody in a three-piece suit with low-quarter shoes. It is a highly-publicized fact that a goodly number of violent people come north across the border, so having some means of self-defense is nothing more than common sense--not to mention being legal. Last, a fair percentage of the Minutemen are retired policemen and retired military. These people tend to be among the higher moral-standard people of our society.

I also note that the Minutemen are nothing more than a Neighborhood Watch group in a larger-than-usual neighborhood. Neighborhood Watch in the interest of preventing crime is usually taken to be a Good Thing, beloved of both police and residents...

Art

crazed_ss
February 12, 2006, 04:14 PM
The parade is supposed to not allow political gtroups, per the organizers. Thus the judge's decision is correct. However, the organizers have in the past allowed groups which are indeed political, so their refusal of the participation by the Minutemen is hypocritical. Political correctness.



Hypocritical as it may be.. it's their parade and they have want to include anyone they dont want to.

As far as the minutemen go, they just dont look like a group of people that I'd feel comfortable associating with. I've read that a lot of these anti-immigration have extremists and racists replying and they have to weed them out... this leaves me to wonder how many of these guys simply keep their mouths shut during the application process so they'll be accepted into the group. The group looks like a bunch of good ol boys out to hunt some Mexicans.. Like I said, if the minutemen didnt potray such an image, they wouldnt be so unpopular with people... then they might get included in a parade.

Biker
February 12, 2006, 04:19 PM
Hypocritical as it may be.. it's their parade and they have want to include anyone they dont want to.

As far as the minutemen go, they just dont look like a group of people that I'd feel comfortable associating with. I've read that a lot of these anti-immigration have extremists and racists replying and they have to weed them out... this leaves me to wonder how many of these guys simply keep their mouths shut during the application process so they'll be accepted into the group. The group looks like a bunch of good ol boys out to hunt some Mexicans.. Like I said, if the minutemen didnt potray such an image, they wouldnt be so unpopular with people... then they might get included in a parade.
They portray that image to *you*. Possibly because you have preconcieved notions? Strange that folks who cry racism are often more guilty of that prioclivity than the ones they accuse. BTW, the Minutemen are pretty damn popular to most Americans here legally.
Biker

longeyes
February 12, 2006, 04:23 PM
Between its pensioners and its illegal aliens San Diego is teetering on the edge of total insolvency. That's what I'm reading.

longeyes
February 12, 2006, 04:25 PM
You know, crazed, you're right: Laguna Beach has the right to keep "undesirables" out of its parade.

And American citizens have the right to keep illegal immigrants out of the United States' "parade."

crazed_ss
February 12, 2006, 04:32 PM
They portray that image to *you*. Possibly because you have preconcieved notions? Strange that folks who cry racism are often more guilty of that prioclivity than the ones they accuse. BTW, the Minutemen are pretty damn popular to most Americans here legally.
Biker

No...

Back in July two Mexicans were shot from a distance. Interestingly enough this is the same area that was being patrolled by the minutemen.. hmmm
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexico/tijuana/20050726-9999-1m26border.html
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexico/tijuana/20050727-9999-7m27shoot.html

Jim Chase, the leader of the minutemen out here even admitted it was probably rouges from his group who are responsible. A group that attracts such people is a group I dont want to be associated with.

Funny how they decided to leave soon after though..
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexico/tijuana/20050806-9999-7m6watchers.html

Merkin.Muffley
February 12, 2006, 04:41 PM
President Bush identified these "minutemen" as vigilantes. Vigilantes have no place marching in America.

crazed_ss
February 12, 2006, 04:41 PM
You know, crazed, you're right: Laguna Beach has the right to keep "undesirables" out of its parade.

And American citizens have the right to keep illegal immigrants out of the United States' "parade."

First of all, it's not Laguna Beach's parade. It's a parade put on by a private group in Laguna Beach. Like I said before, the minutemen can put on their own parade and they can include (or not include) anyone they want.

Second, I never said the minutemen didnt have the right to do what they do. I'm just not a fan of how they go about it or the some of the people that they seem to attract.

longeyes
February 12, 2006, 04:42 PM
Two Mexicans "shot from a distance?"

By whom? Evidence that Minutemen did it?

Meanwhile you have three thousand Mexican felons on the loose as fugitives from American justice.

Go here:

http://www.escapingjustice.com/

Biker
February 12, 2006, 04:43 PM
No...

Back in July two Mexicans were shot from a distance. Interestingly enough this is the same area that was being patrolled by the minutemen.. hmmm
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexico/tijuana/20050726-9999-1m26border.html
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexico/tijuana/20050727-9999-7m27shoot.html

Jim Chase, the leader of the minutemen out here even admitted it was probably rouges from his group who are responsible. A group that attracts such people is a group I dont want to be associated with.

Funny how they decided to leave soon after though..
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexico/tijuana/20050806-9999-7m6watchers.html
Where did Chase make such a statement?
Biker

crazed_ss
February 12, 2006, 04:53 PM
Where did Chase make such a statement?
Biker

http://sandiego.indymedia.org/en/2005/07/110168.shtml

Here's a cool video of minutemen claiming that they're going to "engage" some protesters. Funny, but sad.
http://sandiego.indymedia.org/media/2005/07/109907.mov

Maybe these minutemen should have read their own manual..
http://www.minutemanhq.com/pdf_files/training_manual2.pdf
Specifically the part where it details how they should handle antagonists.

Biker
February 12, 2006, 05:11 PM
http://sandiego.indymedia.org/en/2005/07/110168.shtml

Here's a cool video of minutemen claiming that they're going to "engage" some protesters. Funny, but sad.
http://sandiego.indymedia.org/media/2005/07/109907.mov
Once again you're being blatantly dishonest. Chase stated that people *not* associated with the Minutemen, people running their own patrol, may have been the rougues. Meanwhile, the Mexican police state that the shootings occured on the Mexican side of the border and were likely done by robbers. So much for your credibility.
Biker

crazed_ss
February 12, 2006, 05:20 PM
Robbers who didnt steal anything?

How convenient. Everytime one of these guys screws up.. they're "rogue" or splinter groups who arent associated with the movement.

Biker
February 12, 2006, 05:24 PM
Apparantly so, ss. Anymore falsehoods you care to throw out?
Biker

crazed_ss
February 12, 2006, 05:29 PM
Guess we'll continue to believe what we want.

One thing's for certain.. threatening to "engage" protesters in a firefight and suspicous shootings in the area of minutemen patrols wont get them invited to any parades in SoCal in the near future.

Biker
February 12, 2006, 05:33 PM
That's okay The Minutemen will do their most important parading along the border, making life more difficult for the invaders.;)
Biker

Desertdog
February 12, 2006, 06:14 PM
Merkin.Muffley President
Bush identified these "minutemen" as vigilantes. Vigilantes have no place marching in America.
vig·i·lan·te
Pronunciation: "vi-j&-'lan-tE
Function: noun
Etymology: Spanish, watchman, guard, from vigilante vigilant, from Latin vigilant-, vigilans
: a member of a volunteer committee organized to suppress and punish crime summarily (as when the processes of law appear inadequate); broadly : a self-appointed doer of justice
- vig·i·lan·tism /-'lan-"ti-z&m/ noun
I still have not heard anything of the MM doing anything but observe and report.

a self-appointed doer of justice is NOT what the MM is doing from what I have heard. As said over and over, ovserve and report.

Observe and report to BP, is not the same as see and punish.

Biker
February 12, 2006, 09:39 PM
Guess we'll continue to believe what we want.

One thing's for certain.. threatening to "engage" protesters in a firefight and suspicous shootings in the area of minutemen patrols wont get them invited to any parades in SoCal in the near future.
No, Crazed ss, I exposed you as a liar when you stated that Chase said that the shooters were rogues from his group. You've done a disservice to the Minutemen who include a lot of men and women, from a number of races, with your dishonesty.
You have no honor.
Biker

crazed_ss
February 12, 2006, 10:41 PM
No, Crazed ss, I exposed you as a liar when you stated that Chase said that the shooters were rogues from his group. You've done a disservice to the Minutemen who include a lot of men and women, from a number of races, with your dishonesty.
You have no honor.
Biker

Lol.. what are you a Klingon?

"Jim Chase of the California Minutemen admitted to the San Diego press this week that “rogue” Minutemen shot 2 unarmed Mexicans at the California border near Campo Saturday night. “The rogue theory is absolutely true,” he said.

Chase claimed no one in his formal organization has fired a weapon, and that he has turned away “extremists,” but that he’s encountered “rogue” patrols.

Mexican officials have meanwhile contradicted their original claim that the 2 Mexican nationals were shot by “bandits” – a claim the victims flatly denied. Authorities now say it is uncertain who shot the migrants.
Jose Rivera Perez was shot below the left knee while waiting to cross the border about 20 yards south of the steel fence that slices through the desert. His group was approached, Rivera said, by a masked assailant who, when they began to run, fired on them.

Rivera said he was not robbed, according to the Union Tribune. “If he were a bandit he would have robbed us and taken everything. He only shot at us and ran,” Rivera said.
A second man, Carlos Estrada Martinez, said he was shot some 200 yards on the US side of the border when, according to the Union Tribune, “he saw a laser dot tracing up and down the front of his body” before he was hit by the third of three shots fired in the darkness. Estrada also said he was not robbed."

Did you read the article?
Read before you post.

EDIT: Did you watch the video of the minute cursing and threatening to shoot those people? If those minutemen are potraits of "honor", then I guess I dont have any honor.

TamThompson
February 12, 2006, 10:43 PM
+1, Biker and Longeyes!!!

Newguy Merkin, if you believe something just because President Bush says it, I've got some beachfront property in Nevada I'll sell you very cheaply...

Way to GO, Minutemen! And I thought the parade float idea was amusing.

Biker
February 12, 2006, 10:50 PM
Lol.. what are you a Klingon?

"Jim Chase of the California Minutemen admitted to the San Diego press this week that ?rogue? Minutemen shot 2 unarmed Mexicans at the California border near Campo Saturday night. ?The rogue theory is absolutely true,? he said.

Chase claimed no one in his formal organization has fired a weapon, and that he has turned away ?extremists,? but that he?s encountered ?rogue? patrols. "

Did you read the article?
Read before you post.

EDIT: Did you watch the video of the minute cursing and threatening to shoot those people? If those minutemen are potraits of "honor", then I guess I dont have any honor.
You're pathalogical. Chase did not say that "two rogue Minutemen shot two unarmed Mexicans" anywhere in the links you posted.
And no, you have no honor. If you told me that water was wet, I'd have to stick my hand in a bucket of it before I believed you.
You and honesty are pretty much strangers, ss.
Biker:)

Biker
February 13, 2006, 09:31 PM
Bumped to make sure that crazed ss didn't miss the rebuttal and can defend his alleged transgressions.;)
Biker

crazed_ss
February 13, 2006, 09:39 PM
I replied.. see post #59

EDIT: See post #51 for where I originally posted the link that had Chases alledged statements.
http://sandiego.indymedia.org/en/2005/07/110168.shtml
You'll no doubt attack the source of the link.. but that's fine since everyone here posts links from worldnetdaily, newsmax, and freerepublic.

We'll choose to believe what you want... but like it you said in the other thread about me..
"If you're lookin' like one, walkin' like one and quackin' like one, and you are, ya gotta wonder."

Same goes for the minutemen.

Biker
February 13, 2006, 09:56 PM
I replied.. see post #59

EDIT: See post #51 for where I originally posted the link that had Chases alledged statements.
http://sandiego.indymedia.org/en/2005/07/110168.shtml
You'll no doubt attack the source of the link.. but that's fine since everyone here posts links from worldnetdaily, newsmax, and freerepublic.

We'll choose to believe what you want... but like it you said in the other thread about me..
"If you're lookin' like one, walkin' like one and quackin' like one, and you are, ya gotta wonder."

Same goes for the minutemen.
Another falsehood. If you go back to the source of your faux source, you'll see that the quote was pieced together from a number of quotes, removing all context from the original. Again, a blatant attempt to misrepresent the truth. You don't seem to have a problem with that, do you? The Minutemen are represented by retired military, LE and various other Americans, of a number of races and religions, who have an interest in preserving our (maybe not yours) country's laws and borders. You might feel more comfortable siding up with MS-13 who've vowed to grease some of the Minutemen.
In fact, I strongly suspect that you would feel more comfortable on that side of the fence.
Now, is water wet?
Biker

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