HK UPS-C v. Colt Commander


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Sproles
April 13, 2003, 01:12 AM
Alright-

Help me! I currently have a dilemma that I need to solve. I have a Kahr K9 Elite that I am going to trade or sell. I have a friend of mine that is willing to sell me his Colt Commander with alot of upgrades and it is in GREAT shape for $700. I have shot it and it is great. BUT...there is this nagging sensation inside of me that has always wanted a UPS-C.

What should I do? The reason that I like the COlt is how well I shoot that type of trigger set up. How does the UPS comapre to the Commander style trigger?

What would you do if you had the choice. This is going to be my primary weapon for both home and personal preotection.

Please advise.

David

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CB900F
April 13, 2003, 01:30 AM
I've got my money where my keyboard is - I own, as my carry gun, the H&K USP compact in .40. Variant 2, with ambidextrous operating lever. I've had it for about 5 years, no problems of any kind ever, with both factory & handloaded ammo. I had the ambi lever retro-fitted last year, fast turn around & at phone quoted price.

I very much like the idea of being able to carry cocked & locked with the hammer drop that the Colt doesn't have. As for the trigger, it's not as good as some of my 1911 pattern guns, but it certainly isn't bad. And then again, I didn't buy it for a target gun.
900F

Tamara
April 13, 2003, 01:35 AM
How does the UPS comapre to the Commander style trigger?

It doesn't. ;)

Other than that, it's a fine (if somewhat chunky) pistola.

Marko Kloos
April 13, 2003, 01:37 AM
The Commander has the superior trigger by far, while the USPc has the edge in reliability. I'd feel well armed with either one. If you are comfortable with 1911s and cocked & locked carry, and that Commander is proven reliable, get the Commander. If you're more comfortable with DA/SA triggers and like the option of both cocked & locked and Condition 2 carry, get the USPc. Either way, you can't really make a bad choice between those two guns.

FJC
April 13, 2003, 01:38 AM
You can get a deal NOW on a great Colt Commander that you've shot, you like, and you feel is a deal...


...You can always buy the UPS later, but will this deal always be available?

Cruiser
April 13, 2003, 09:35 AM
Commander all the way. USP's are junk. As a USP armorer for our dept SWAT team, I have direct experience with 20 USP40's, and have seen nothing but problems. Many times, they fail to fire in DA. We're scrapping our USP's and going with Glock 21's instead.

I hear (but haven't confirmed) WA State Patrol is switching from Beretta 92F to USP's even though they've experienced a number of problems with the USP.

Sean Smith
April 13, 2003, 11:59 AM
U-S-P. :D

Anyway, I'd take the Commander. If I was to get a HK I'd hold out for one of their cooler jobs the the P9S or P7.

uglymofo
April 13, 2003, 02:02 PM
Agree with pretty much everything said here; the Colt has the potential of having a finely-tuned trigger and out-of-the-box are generally quite a bit better than the HK. Operationally, it can be as reliable as an HK UPSc. The USP 45c recoils the same as a Commander, so nothing gained there. For CCW, I'd take the Colt; at least, the USP 45c feels like a boxcar on the hip, and is harder to hide.

No one's mentioned ergonomics. The thumb safety works with the same motion (as opposed to an S&W, DE, or Walther PPK), but the mag release is different from the 1911. HK mag release pushes up/down, 1911's push into the grip. Of course, the big difference is hammer up or hammer down.

care-less
April 13, 2003, 06:38 PM
Sproles-- the key words to me are " with a lot of upgrades". That is the only way the commander matches up to a USPc , out of the box. USPc is by far the safer pistol to carry a round chambered in: ( I know I will catch hell for that); and the HK can be carried cocked and locked like the Colt, and has just as good a trigger; IMHO:) I have sold my Colts. I still love them, but the USPc gets my vote.

benewton
April 13, 2003, 06:58 PM
Care-less has it right!

The 1911 was great in it's time, but time has moved on.

Boats
April 13, 2003, 07:26 PM
The 1911 was great in it's time, but time has moved on.

Thanks for the laugh. Somehow that one never seems to wear out though it should.

Had both and have no uberplastik now. The USP is fine for what it is, but what it is certainly ain't as good as a 1911 of any quality. For the record, there is no HK trigger, on a USP, that approaches a 1911 trigger. There are only HK shooters who keep having to tell themselves this to maintain a sense that they didn't overpay for what is essentially the equivalent of an XD.:cool:

care-less
April 13, 2003, 08:58 PM
:what: You are seriously going to compare an HK to an XD!! I need a drink:) The 1911 is century old technology. Why not get a Colt model P, the latest in high tech; everyone is using them:barf:

Sean Smith
April 13, 2003, 09:04 PM
A USP is just a less imaginative version of what Glock already did. :neener:

HKcenterMass
April 13, 2003, 09:04 PM
want it to go bang everytime? then get the HK. I dont know how people arrive at the conclusion that the HK is junk... i like colts too, but there is no way it can endure the torture that an HK can. get the USP for 699, incredibly accurate. if the trigger bothers you, get that taken care of, but after 500 rounds, the trigger is fine. its "uber engineered"

Boats
April 13, 2003, 09:12 PM
but there is no way it can endure the torture that an HK can

Of course the vast majority of HK owners only torture their pistols in sordid, small hour Red Dawn fantasies.

And with that we arrive at the truth of the matter. Yes one can favorably compare an XD to an HK. There is nothing objectively better about the USP, and certainly nothing about its trigger, even with the LEM, that puts it over on the Croation pistol. Nothing that is but the higher poseur value. Goodnaturedly I point you in the direction of the incomparable Skunk for further details.

High tech that adds nothing to what came before is wasted R&D.

KMKeller
April 13, 2003, 09:48 PM
Goes bang every time out of the box with excellent accuracy firing all types of ammo - HK
Goes bang after minor tune up from a quality smith - 1911
Aftermarket tune up parts to customize and make personal - 1911
SA Trigger - 1911
DA/SA comfort factor - HK
Durability - Toss up, slight edge to HK... maybe.

Owned both, paid more for my 1911, had to have it modified to feed ammo. HK USP .45c, still going strong, never had a single issue with it. Swapped the 1911 to a gent who uses ball ammo in competition... runs like a swiss watch.

12 of one, a dozen of another. I'm not a 1911 bigot like boats, nor am I an HK zealot. I went with what worked best for me and provided me with the best comfort level when protecting my family. My choice was the HK. I can't trust a weapon that's failed.

care-less
April 13, 2003, 09:49 PM
:what: I am truly speechless; I need another drink!

Marko Kloos
April 13, 2003, 09:52 PM
High tech that adds nothing to what came before is wasted R&D.

In all fairness, and all the "tactical poseur pistol" bashing aside, the HK does have some engineering improvements over the 1911, if you look at both pistols objectively and not through religious glasses.

The HK has a captured and very effective recoil buffer system. It also does away with the swing link arrangement, which is one of the few weaknesses of the 1911 design. The HK utilizes a linkless Peters Stahl-like arrangement instead. The trigger module on the HK is replaceable, and the HK can be configured in a much more flexible fashion. Nothing beats the fantastic SA trigger on a 1911, but not everybody is comfortable with Condition 1 carry. The HK is much more readily tailored to shooter preferences: manual safety, DAO, cocked-and-locked carry, decocker, or a half dozen other combinations. The benefits of polymer for frame design are now grudgingly conceded even by many purists, and field-stripping of a USP is undeniably easier than stripping a 1911.

So yes, it does add a few things. Like it or not, but new doesn't necessarily mean "no improvement" by default. The 1911 has some great positive attributes, but it's not the ultimate handgun design upon which no improvement is possible.

Sean Smith
April 13, 2003, 10:16 PM
Which one is "better" depends on what factors you consider important.

Your "more rounds in the mag" is my "crappy ergonomics."
Your "safer DA trigger" is my "crappy trigger pull."
Your "modern polymer construction" is my "limp wrist jam facilitator."
Your "interchangeable trigger modules" are my "all still worse than a 1911 trigger modules."
Your "rust resistant finish" is my "uglier than bluing finish."
Your "lighter weight" is my "bulkier and harder to conceal."
Your "HK cachet" is my "raise the price to impress tactical poseurs."

(and vice-versa)

My only suggestion is to think about what actually matters to you, and get a gun that has those things.

Skunkabilly
April 13, 2003, 10:47 PM
Goodnaturedly I point you in the direction of the incomparable Skunk for further details.

Tactical poser? Me? :D

Between the two, I'd pick a USP. Between a USP and a semi-custom 1911, I'd pick the semi-custom.

rick_reno
April 14, 2003, 01:26 AM
I've got both - I carry the H&K compact in 45 acp. I've carried for about three years and have 5000-6000 rounds thru it. It is the only 45 I own - and I also have Glock, Sig, Colt, Kimber - that has never failed. I've shot handloads and various factory loads thru all those 45's and every one but the H&K has had at least one malfunction. This is the most reliable semi-auto I own. The trigger action isn't really comparable on the H&K and Colts, they're very different. Greyguns does a trigger job on them that is reportedly very good - I haven't tried one but those that have say good things about them. If I were getting into a H&K today I'd try one his trigger jobs, I've shot mine enough that I'm used to it. You can find Greyguns at http://www.mainstreet-stores.com/cgi-bin/ePages.filereader?3e976ba524f11214271dc0a8018906dc+EN/catalogs/123535&2D163762

M1911
April 14, 2003, 10:40 AM
I've got two HK USPc -- in .40 and .45. I've got two Kimber Compacts -- one a steel frame the other an aluminum frame. I carry the Kimbers. The USPs live in the safe. YMMV.

10-Ring
April 14, 2003, 12:33 PM
For out box reliablity, go w/ the USPc.

Oleg Volk
April 14, 2003, 01:18 PM
Shot them side-by-side recently.

USPc is more comfortabel to fire, easier to maintain, feeds any ammo.
Colt had a better SA trigger.

Practical accuracy about identical.

Trisha
April 14, 2003, 04:33 PM
I own both, and I carry either without hesitation. My Commander has been reworked twice, having seen 31,000 rounds, and it emerges from the hands of a loving gunsmith in superb condition. My HK USPc has seen 23,000 rounds (full-power to +P+ defensive) and has never malfunctioned. Accuracy is too close to reliably compare between the two, coming in at under two inches at 20 yards (3-shot groups, modified Weaver).

The Commander trigger is the lovely 3.5lb perfect glass rod.
The HK isn't in the same league.
The Commander has seen over twice the original purchase price in repairs and tuning to date - and still looks "factory."
The HK has needed nothing, and shows no wear save for very slight external barrel burnishing.
Commander mags cost $12.
HK USPc mags cost $40.

I would recommend you buy what has the best ergonomics for you, and then what you simply personally love the most. Your attachment to the firearm will result in more attention to cleaning and care, as well as reward you a bit more when you master is on the range.

Have fun!
Trisha

techmike
April 14, 2003, 10:06 PM
I love everything about my USP's (A TAC and a Compact) but the Commander, for my money is the ultimate configuration for a CCW pistol. YMMV

Kitt
April 14, 2003, 10:48 PM
My Colt Commander is a satin series 70 that is fairly stock. Barrel throated and polished, ED Brown barrel bushing, Wilson full leangth group gripper guide rod, and front night sight. It is 100% reliable, has a great trigger and just plain fun to shoot. My H&K is a 40 compact. It has a smooth trigger, Trijicon night sights and will feed and fire anything. THe only thing I know to do is buy one of each!

cratz2
April 14, 2003, 11:06 PM
You can call blind to technological advances, you can say I view the 1911 through rose-colored glasses, I don't really care. I would take the Colt Commander. If it's not 100% reliable, have a quick and easy throat/polish job done by Ned Christiansen or a reputable local guy if you are so lucky. While it's there, get the trigger of your choice installed along with a good 4 lb trigger job. Get 3 Wilson mags or PowerMags and be happy with your gun.

I do like the variants available in the USP but it just isn't as comfortable to me as the 1911. If I had to use it right out of the box and absolutely could not afford the time away for custom work, I might consider the USP. I don't believe they're junk as at least one contributor to this thread has claimed but I don't think of it as the equal to a good Commander.

New_comer
April 15, 2003, 04:56 AM
You've already got a good gun: adequate caliber, number of rounds, excellent as CCW.

Why change? :confused:

IIWY, I'd save up either for the USP or the Colt, whichever drives your fancy.

For out-of-the-box rugged utilitarian performance, then the USP's it. It's got a decent 5-lb SA trigger, longish but otherwise excellent. And if you happen to err shooting a 45 super thru it, I've read that the gun can take it, tho it would be better shoot the hotter loads with the full size version. :D

I doubt if you'll be using either model for a 50-100 yd bullseye shooting anyways... ;)

As a showgun, then I'd pick the Colt. Even if it performs ok, I wouldn't want to ding up the finish during CCW and lose its resale value.

M1911
April 15, 2003, 09:02 AM
if the trigger bothers you, get that taken care of, but after 500 rounds, the trigger is fine.Even after a trigger job, the SA trigger on my HK USPc is at best fair. The DA trigger on the HK USPc just plain sucks. The clunky safety lever/decocker on the HK is not as comfortable for me as a 1911. The trigger reach seems just a bit too long for me on the HK. The HK has more muzzle flip. I find the magazine release on the HK harder to reach and use.

In contrast, the triggers on my Kimber Compacts are great.

Have I had my Kimbers tweaked by a gunsmith? Yup, I have. I've also had my HK USPc tweaked by a gunsmith. The Kimbers are now where I want them. The USPc is not. YMMV.

Cruiser
April 15, 2003, 01:07 PM
"I dont know how people arrive at the conclusion that the HK is junk..."

Front sights falling off, recoil spring assemblies coming apart & tying up the guns, failing to fire in DA, decocking if you use a high thumb position on the safety...

The term junk is, admittedly, subjective, but watching these sort of malfunctions and breakdowns repeatedly in 20 guns over a period of three years leads me to the conclusion that the USP is an over-priced, poorly engineered (or poorly executed) design. Our PD has issued 1st gen Glocks, Berettas, and now 3rd gen Glocks & Kimbers. All have had individual examples of minor glitches and failures, but nothing on the order I've seen with the USP's.

Just my observations and opinions. Go with what you like & feel comfortable with.

Shake
April 15, 2003, 01:52 PM
Seems strange that no one else has complained of the above mentioned problems. In my years of shooting USPs and watching friends shoot theirs, I've never heard or see any of those things happen.

The local sheriff's department uses the USP .40 as their duty weapon and reports none of those types of problems.

Also seems in stark contrast to what I've read on this and other message boards. . .

Shake

care-less
April 15, 2003, 02:23 PM
Sean, Just for the record, the Glock is just a less immaginative version of what HK was doing ten years before Glock ever thought of making a pistol.;) I guess I must just be lucky, but my USPc 45 has an absolutly beautiful double action trigger, and single action is nicer than Colts 1911. What can I say? Admittedly, HK is fatter thru slide, but very comfy in my hand, and trigger reach is fine. I have yet to actually meet anyone who owns a USPc45; that felt the need to send it off and have it tweaked ( to make it "right"). :neener:

Bobarino
April 15, 2003, 04:23 PM
holy smokes. this pistol is supposed to be used as a carry gun right? you smooth as a glass rod, super sweet, super tuned single actions trigger on your 1911 style showpiece isn't going to make your DEFENSIVE shooting situation any easier. you'll be so pumped full of adrenaline that a 60 pound 3 inch long trigger pull will seem like nothing to you and you won't even remember it. how many times have you heard a court case where the justifiable shooter said "boy that crisp single action trigger sure was nice when i shot that guy in the heart."? and it will definately not make it any easier in a courtroom. the lawyers that are going to sue the pants off you will rip you apart for carrying a gun with a "hair trigger" which is what it will be labeled. the nice SA trigger is great for the range or competition, but a light trigger will not save you in a defensive shooting if your basic skills have not been ingrained in your brain with lots and lots of training and practice. as far as safety is concerned, a gun is only as safe as the person operating it. cocked and locked is perfectly safe in the hands of someone who has trained that way. then there are people i wouldn't trust anywhere near be with a BB gun that was unloaded.

the 1911 crowd will never change their minds. its a great pistol, but it is not the most efficient of defensive pistols anymore. personally, i'd carry a glock before a 1911, and i don't even like glocks. the H&K triggers are not the best, they do smooth out significantly after a few thousand rouds, but they are not designed as match-target-race pistols. they are tough, reliable service pistols.

you could pobably bet your life on whatever quality pistol you train with. if the 1911 fits like a glove and you shoot well with it and most importantly, you trust your life to it, then go for that. if you like the USP but are not yet as comfortable with it, then you'll have to devote a lot of time to training and practicing to become profeicient with it.

all these opinions don't (or at least shouldn't) mean squat. all that matters is what YOU want. pick the one that you would bet your life on each time, all the time. try them all out extensivley. pick the one that blows your skirt up.

all that said, my vote is for the H&K USP-C .40. (thats what i carry) good luck....

Bobby

Soap
April 15, 2003, 04:49 PM
They are both good guns. It just comes down to which one has better ergonomics and the ease of carry. For me, its 1911 all the way.

M1911
April 15, 2003, 04:58 PM
holy smokes. this pistol is supposed to be used as a carry gun right? you smooth as a glass rod, super sweet, super tuned single actions trigger on your 1911 style showpiece isn't going to make your DEFENSIVE shooting situation any easier. you'll be so pumped full of adrenaline that a 60 pound 3 inch long trigger pull will seem like nothing to you and you won't even remember it. My 1911 triggers are 4 1/2 to 5 lbs. The SA trigger on my HK USPc is about 5 lbs. Both are short travel. The standard Glock trigger is about 5 lbs and is also a short travel. Just how are my 1911 more of "hair-trigger" than either a Glock or HK?the nice SA trigger is great for the range or competition, but a light trigger will not save you in a defensive shooting if your basic skills have not been ingrained in your brain with lots and lots of training and practice. as far as safety is concerned, a gun is only as safe as the person operating it. Again, my 1911 trigger is basically no lighter than the SA trigger on my USPc, nor that of my Glock, nor that of my Sig. Personally, I can shoot more quickly and more accurately with my 1911s than with any other gun. YMMV. If you like your HK, great. I've got 2 HKs. I wouldn't feel badly armed with them, but I'm better with the 1911.
they are tough, reliable service pistols. So is my 1911.cocked and locked is perfectly safe in the hands of someone who has trained that way.Which is how I've trained for several years. I've taken LFI-1 & 2 and SigArms Academy Concealed Carry and Advanced Concealed Carry and did all that cocked and locked.

Boats
April 15, 2003, 05:14 PM
care-less

I guess I must just be lucky, but my USPc 45 has an absolutly beautiful double action trigger, and single action is nicer than Colts 1911. What can I say?

Yes, what more can you say? You don't happen to be taking a creative writing course at the moment?:D

Admittedly, HK is fatter thru slide,

Yep.

but very comfy in my hand, and trigger reach is fine. I have yet to actually meet anyone who owns a USPc45; that felt the need to send it off and have it tweaked ( to make it "right").

Well you are right there. I never sent my old HK USPc to be tweaked because it didn't feel right, I sold the pistol rather than address the weird ergonomics and $40.00 spare mags.

Bobarino

holy smokes. this pistol is supposed to be used as a carry gun right? you smooth as a glass rod, super sweet, super tuned single actions trigger on your 1911 style showpiece isn't going to make your DEFENSIVE shooting situation any easier. you'll be so pumped full of adrenaline that a 60 pound 3 inch long trigger pull will seem like nothing to you and you won't even remember it.

Paging Massad Ayoob. Mr. Ayoob we need another of your uncited court case anecdotes ASAP!

how many times have you heard a court case where the justifiable shooter said "boy that crisp single action trigger sure was nice when i shot that guy in the heart."?

Uh, howabout zero times? I am looking to make the gunfight easier, not the courtroom anyways. Why handicap myself with a Nintendo trigger? My self defense 1911 trigger lets off at a factory set 4.5 pounds with a couple millimeters of pretravel and next to no overtravel. The pistol doesn't go off unless I want it to.

and it will definately not make it any easier in a courtroom. the lawyers that are going to sue the pants off you will rip you apart for carrying a gun with a "hair trigger" which is what it will be labeled.

Cite one instance of this happening anywhere please. Pretty please. I will bet you cannot find a publicly reported case outside the files of Mas Ayoob.

the nice SA trigger is great for the range or competition, but a light trigger will not save you in a defensive shooting if your basic skills have not been ingrained in your brain with lots and lots of training and practice.

Hmmm. I think you'll find most 1911 shooters like lots of training and practice. It is how many of us came to the 1911 after trying a lot of inferior weapons.

as far as safety is concerned, a gun is only as safe as the person operating it. cocked and locked is perfectly safe in the hands of someone who has trained that way. then there are people i wouldn't trust anywhere near be with a BB gun that was unloaded.

Hey! Something we can agree on.

the 1911 crowd will never change their minds.

Yep.

its a great pistol,

Yep.

but it is not the most efficient of defensive pistols anymore.

Efficient? My personal 1911s get great mileage. They seem to efficiently burn alot of my money downrange too. What could you possibly be talking about?

personally, i'd carry a glock before a 1911, and i don't even like glocks.

:confused:

the H&K triggers are not the best,

You must not be acquainted with care-less yet.

they do smooth out significantly after a few thousand rouds,

Only a few thousand?

but they are not designed as match-target-race pistols. they are tough, reliable service pistols.

Oddly enough the 1911 was designed as a combat pistol and most serious 1911 shooters try to keep at least one minimally modified one for self-defense purposes.

SNIP

Al Thompson
April 15, 2003, 05:49 PM
It's worse than that Boats, Ayoob actually likes the 1911 for "surgical shot placement". His only point is that you have to know where the attack's coming from in order to be able to block it.

:D

benewton
April 15, 2003, 05:54 PM
I guess that I was unaware of the level of intensity of the 1911 vrs anything debate.

FWIW, I overpaid for my USPc-.40, swapping engineering time (at a god awful rate) for a weapon which fit my hand so well I just had to have it. Overall, ah, never mind, I don't want to admit what it cost! And I would have much preferred the .45 ACP, which I already had the dies, bullets and ect. for, which, of course, came out, as in available, about a month after mine came home. Ah well...

I've no real idea of how many rounds have gone through mine, although I know I've disposed of 1K of brass, which I discard after 10 reloads after the initial firing. True, most were 180 hard cast lead over 4.5 BE practice rounds, but it's given me no problems that a reasonable cleaning failed to solve (yes, I know, but shooting out of the back door, I can do 50 rounds every day, and who'd clean every day shooting like that?). No gunsmithing done, but I do suspect that I should change the recoil spring unit sometime soon.

1911's are OK, got one, like it. Got a S&W4516, which was replaced by the USPc, and it works too.
Got revolvers, other autos...

Bottom line, as I see it, is to use the weapon that you do best with in the expected application, that you trust, and that you will have with you.

So, good for 1" groups from a tuned pistol at 100 yards, offhand with a 3.5# trigger. Love the technical side. But, if I fire at all, it'll be at a large target, inbound, from 7 yards or less with the range decreasing, and for that application, with a 5'7 1/2" frame to conceal it on, the USPc works just fine for me.

Still wish I had the .45, though...

Sean Smith
April 15, 2003, 06:47 PM
:D @ Boats's entire post.

M1911
April 15, 2003, 08:06 PM
I guess that I was unaware of the level of intensity of the 1911 vrs anything debate.I think you were unaware of the "1911s are dangerous, out-moded pistols" debate.

Are HKs fine pistols? Sure. So are Sigs, and Glocks and many others. All pistols have advantages and disadvantages. If an HK works for you, great, use it. An Hk could work for me, I've got 2 of them, but my 1911s work better for me.

But when people start saying things like they are outmoded, dangerous, will get you creamed in a courtroom, etc., are you really surprised that many of us will call that into question?

care-less
April 15, 2003, 08:26 PM
Bobarino has it right.

Sean Smith
April 15, 2003, 08:28 PM
Here is your superior USP reliability for you...

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18603

:evil:

benewton
April 15, 2003, 09:14 PM
M1911;

I've my gripes with the 1911, but never thought it ineffective, and, so, I guess I never really got into the name calling game.

I've fired SIGs, in detail for recoil testing of some of my sights, with the cheapest ammo the boss could find, with no problems at all. (By the way, did you know that a SIG .40 will fire a 9mm?
Should probably have asked what caliber before I went into the "room"...)

Don't really think that the 1911's are all that dangerous, if you are used to handling pistols. In the recent war, did you notice the "discharge" barrels by the doors of the orderly rooms? And this for the 9mm whatever. So, I guess, things don't change all that much.

As for me, the ergonomics are better, the weapon has never failed without very good cause, i.e. lack of cleaning, and I appreciate the fact that I've the safety on when the chamber is loaded.

On the legality side, YOYO.
If you carry, then you handle daily, which is more than most of the military does. If you come in front of me, as a juror, for an AD, you just might have a problem, since, using a professional weapon, I'd expect you to have mastered it.

On the other hand, my carry ammo and my practice ammo are both reloads, so what the hell do I know about legalty???

Use what you shoot best, and my worthless blessing be on you.

Besides, there's this 10mm itch I have, so I may yet be back with the blessed, given that the good ones are all 1911 based...

HKcenterMass
April 15, 2003, 10:00 PM
Its amazing how many "bad " hks are out there. Ive got 3,000 rounds through mine, with 2 failures due to bad UMC ammo ( there was a brass shaving sticking out. I'm callin BS on the "hk is junk" bit. I've seeen plenty of modded and un modded 1911s fail next to me at the range, could have been bad ammo, could have been the gun, but in my opinion and experience, the HK is Superior in reliablilty, hands down, no question.

Here's a sour grapes statement: Of course the vast majority of HK owners only torture their pistols in sordid, small hour Red Dawn fantasies. ...and i dont remember seeing a USP in Red Dawn.
http://www.streetpro.com/usp/torture.html

um, so testing is useless. just like crash testing on a car? I think these tests speak volumes.

Soap
April 15, 2003, 10:57 PM
3000 rounds? A good friend and THR member's Colt finally died after about 60000 rounds. Then he sent it to be refurbished and it runs like a champ again. The 1911 is everything but outdated. HKs are not magic swords, nor are 1911s. Just pick the one that fits you and that you can shoot well.

Cruiser
April 16, 2003, 05:32 AM
"I'm callin BS on the "hk is junk" bit."

I'm not asking anyone to believe me or change their opinions because of me. I'm just reporting what I've personally observed. Most of the Tacoma PD SWAT team seems to agree that they are junk, since the decision was made to scrap our USP's for Glocks. Three years of constant problems with a duty gun just got to be too much.

Apparently, our experiences are in the minority, but they are all we have to go on. Just like you're not going to take my word that USP's are junk when you've had positive experiences with them, someone else's stories about how great they are won't change our minds after our negative experiences.

Like I said, shoot what you like. If your USP (or Glock, or Browning, or Beretta or Lorcin) works and is reliable, then you have a great gun. Our USP's don't fall into that category.

Boats
April 16, 2003, 11:24 AM
Here's a sour grapes statement: Of course the vast majority of HK owners only torture their pistols in sordid, small hour Red Dawn fantasies. ...and i dont remember seeing a USP in Red Dawn.
[carnival tests snipped]


Uh, not seeing a USP in the actual movie Red Dawn would make its presence in the joke the product of the fantasy in the mind of the discriminating Hk owner, who apparently dreams that he will one day be "torturing" his pistol in some like scenario and then regale the world with his performance BS at the bivouac. "My pistol ejected an average of 28 inches today on eight of the ten shots it actually fired!!!" It is not "sour grapes," oh nevermind.:rolleyes:

Even your unintentionally hilarious link has the word "torture" in it, maybe it is something endemic to Germanic speakers to want to "torture" their pistols under factory conditions in order to sell them to gullible customers at outrageous prices worldwide while many of us Americans make do with one merely tested on battlefields.:D I apologize to tactical poseurs everywhere for briefly owning an HK USPc .45 and not becoming completely, or even partially, enamored with it, not even moved by it enough to purchase the polo shirt.:neener: At least I am far from alone on that one.

"German combat divers report that the HK USP. . . .":rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Call me the first time German "combat divers" do anything in combat will you?

DeltaElite
April 16, 2003, 11:34 AM
I would take the Colt Commander.
I am not a USP fan in the slightest, too many bad experiences with them at the dept range for me.
However, we got lots of practice clearing jams. ;)
FWIW, we dumped the USP for Glock 22's and 35's.

BTW, doesn't USP stand for Unbelievably Shoddy Pistol ? :neener:

Bobarino
April 16, 2003, 03:18 PM
Cruiser and others,

this is not intended to be sarcastic or doubting you in any way, but i'm curious as to what kind of problems were encountered with the USP's specifically. broken parts? what kind of ammo was being used? other failures? just want to know..... thanks.

Bobby

Tamara
April 16, 2003, 03:32 PM
Sweet Vishnu, folks...

These are pistols, okay? Not religious denominations...

If you think that the One True Path To Enlightenment can be stuffed into a Milt Sparks IWB, then maybe it's time to step back and take a deep breath or two, hm'kay? ;)

DeltaElite
April 16, 2003, 03:34 PM
Here ya go Bobarino. :D
I will preface this by saying that we got our HK's when they were a brand new unproven design. Many of the problems we encountered have been fixed since then, but my confidence with the weapon has not been restored.
I kept my Glock throughout this period of experimentation.

We had the USP 40 as our issue pistol for eight years.
Jams in training were abundant with both practice and combat ammo, fortunately none in combat.
Magazines failed repeatedly, the lips would spread so badly as to allow ammo to stand straight up in the magazine, also double feeding was a problem.
We went through four generations of HK mags and finally had to buy Wolff springs for the mags, since HK refused to acknowledge that there was a problem.
The mag release springs on the first ones were very light and had to be toughened up, since the mags were popping out at bad times.
The only gun I have seen more prone to rusting were early production Sigs, and we are in a desert, making rust even less likely if the finish was any good.

A buddy had a hammer reset spring break that resulted in his USP becoming a single action only gun, too bad the first shot was supposed to be double action. This was discovered during a routine check by the team armorer.

Yes, all guns have growing pains, but we were the Guinea Pigs for the growing pains and I have lost all confidence in the USP design.
Gladly I never carried one, but I did shoot them and they shot well.

All in all, I prefer my Glocks for many reasons, but they aren't perfect either.

care-less
April 16, 2003, 03:36 PM
1911 fans sure are a touchy bunch! Maybe they have reasons to be! What is that old saying? "Me thinks he protesteth too much" or something like that anyway. There is another one; "Don't cast your pearls before swine" In this case the HK's are the pearls!:neener:

Tamara
April 16, 2003, 03:40 PM
A phrase about pots and kettles is springing to mind, here... :scrutiny:

M1911
April 16, 2003, 03:56 PM
These are pistols, okay? Not religious denominations...:what: Die heretic!:p

care-less
April 16, 2003, 04:03 PM
:barf: :rolleyes: :neener: :D

Tamara
April 16, 2003, 04:16 PM
Can you hear that? Can you hear what they're saying?

"I haven't let you down yet, and I'll do my best when you need me..."

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=230138

Carry on... ;)

care-less
April 16, 2003, 04:36 PM
Well, two out of five ain't bad; work on it!:D

Tamara
April 16, 2003, 05:16 PM
As soon as I figure a way to get the other thirty-two handguns in the frame, I'll let you know; I just figured I'd show a representative sample.

Work on it. ;)

Sean Smith
April 16, 2003, 05:19 PM
Tamara, please don't taunt the brand fanatics. :D

izzy
April 16, 2003, 06:42 PM
Sproles,

I've got a USP-C .40 and have enjoyed shooting it. However, I shot a Kimber and got bitten by that 1911 bug so badly I went out and bought a Wilson CQB compact. The USP-C has worked flawlessly digesting everything that I have fed it. The problem is that I have not picked up the USP-C since purchasing the CQB and am actually thinking of getting rid of it. I dont think you can go wrong with either. It's just a matter of preference.

Boats
April 16, 2003, 06:52 PM
I'd say one thing is obvious from this thread. The 1911 critics of the USP know much more about the HK product than the HK defenders know about the 1911. One can only guess what might account for that fact.:scrutiny:

There was nothing "wrong" with my USPc. There wasn't much "right" about it either. Unfortunately for my gun fund, this was just one of those pistols at the time too rare to find a shooter to rent before I acquired it. I never warmed up to its "charms" like the stupid magazine release and its imprecise and creepy trigger. Sticker shock for a third eight round mag (what German pixie dust makes such a limited cap mag cost $40?) was an added bonus. The experience has obviously doomed me to a lifetime of not flirting with half-baked designs from HK and I sleep soundly at night not wondering once when the P2000 will finally make it over.

If I ever acquire another uberpistole, it will be the P7, which has at least earned the raves it receives from many quarters and unlike the USP, has a really sweet trigger.:D Or I could save myself some money and get a proven SIG.

I heard a Glock owner tell me a bilingual joke once. Naturally, I wrote it down and threw it in my range bag.

"What does U.S.P. stand for?"

"Universal Service Pistol of course."

"That's what they say in English, but the word service, in German, does not begin with the letter S. Do you know what USP stands for in the Austrian dialect of German?"

"No."

"Ungesund, Schwerfallig Puter. Unsound Ponderous Turkey.:neener:

Soap
April 16, 2003, 07:32 PM
If you think that the One True Path To Enlightenment can be stuffed into a Milt Sparks IWB, then maybe it's time to step back and take a deep breath or two, hm'kay?

Hey now! I resemble that remark!

Johnny Guest
April 16, 2003, 09:47 PM
- --The Path to enlightenment thing.

Boats, you make some good points, some of which I've been making for over 30 years.

When are we gonna learn that NONE OF US are going to convince anyone who is already convinced to change his/her mind? Those who are admitted newbies, or unfamiliar with a particular design, okay--You MIGHT be able to influence them, until they gain enough insight and experience to make their own decisions. You pays your money and you takes your choice. Is it my imagination, or do those who have the broadest experience the most tolerant of the choices made by others?

While I haven't tried every type handgun, I've been the whole circuit of actions, calibers, and brands, and keep circling back to fairly near where I started. I have given many types a fair chance, and remain unconvinced that any of them are better for my particular use than the 1911 type, in caliber .45. I carry a Commander pretty much daily, but if I had to go back "on the bricks," I'd use a full size, full weight pistol. I have a couple of .38 snubs which are very neat for special purpose use.

If I HAD to go with a 9mm, I have an excellent Browning High Power. I have tried Glocks, and like 'em better than I anticipated, but not for daily use. I keep one in the car as a primary spare, because I don't want to risk a nicer pistol for that purpose.

There's a GSSF Glock match coming soon. I'll probably shoot a G19 in it. My horizons are not so narrow that I need to sneer at such.

There are a couple of decent .357s in the safe, and I could live with one of those if need be. I don't currently own any H&K or SiG or Beretta, but I could afford to buy one if I liked it enough. Same with Walthers, though I still have the PPK I bought new in 1966.

I know the stakes in the game, and I'll play my own favorites. I hope yours serve you so well.

;)
Johnny

HKcenterMass
April 16, 2003, 11:47 PM
Its funny, i've never had a tactical fantasy about my HK, So stop sippin on the hatorade. In my opinion and eperience, the USP is a better weapon than the Colt 1911. Thats my opinion. I believe its built better out of the box, it just is... I'll put .+p+ , +p and .45 super through my HK all day...

A good friend and THR member's Colt finally died after about 60000 rounds. Then he sent it to be refurbished and it runs like a champ again.

60,000 rounds? thats it? The HK is just getting warmed up at 60k! Even Glocks go 100k rounds without refurbishing.

Enjoy your 1911s, one day i'll have one, and it will look really pretty in my glass display case.:neener:

Tamara
April 17, 2003, 12:26 AM
The HK is just getting warmed up at 60k!

You know this for a fact because you have 60,000 rounds through yours, or because you read it on the errornet? ;)

Sproles
April 17, 2003, 12:44 AM
WEll, this little poll has turned out to be quite an interesting debate. It's interesting that at the time of this response, the votes are tied at 33 each. 33 v 28 v 5...33 for Colt Commander and 28+5 for the HK USP-C (Of varying valibers.)

I believe that I have decided to keep the Colt Commander for now (until it gives me problems or I end up hating it) and might add a HK with a portion of next quarter's bonus check.

I appreciate EVERYONE'S input and advice and "unbiased" insight!:rolleyes: Thanks again.

By the way USP = Universal SELF LOADING Pistol...thought you would be interested to know.

David

DeltaElite
April 17, 2003, 12:45 AM
Let's see, in my experience with HK's, 60,000 rounds would mean about 1200 malfunctions. :neener:

Of course if HK ever get a clue and make a 10mm version, I would buy one. :D

HKcenterMass
April 17, 2003, 12:58 AM
I dont have 60k rounds through my HK, will it go 60k plus? u bet it will. guns and ammo has the hk usp .40 at 70k+....thats what "ive read" I didnt question mr 60k rounds through his friends 1911 I've got no doubt it will make it, ive got no doubt my HK will make it to 60+ as well. Its a quality gun, thats why I bought it, thats why I love it. someone called the hk junk, he stated his opinion, i stated mine. whats the problem? How is the HK Junk? Ive only got 3,000+ rounds through mine with 2 failures due to brass shavings on UMC ammo, all the other times, i wouldnt want to be at the wrong end of the gun. Is it possible to get a bad HK? duh! guns are man made, they will have problems, even glock has recalls, and IMO, they are right up there with HK and Sig quality. whats not to like about a gun that has all the saftey features I want, goes bang when it should, can carry cocked and locked, is polymer, is comfortable, has very light recoil for a .45, handles .45 super, deadly accurate out of the box, from a company that manufactures rifles and pistols,since 1949, used by armed forces and law enforcement around the world? Dont like it? thats OK, but its not junk. There, I rest my case. I'm going to sleep. When I wake up tomorrow, im going to the range and get intoxicated from the smell smoke and powder. from this point, I have no need to defend my USP...i'm secure in its ability. keep em in the 10 ring. flame away fellow high roaders. :cool:

Tamara
April 17, 2003, 01:04 AM
I dont have 60k rounds through my HK, will it go 60k plus? u bet it will.

Must be nice. :) Personally I don't bet that any of my pistols will fire one more round without jamming or breaking; that's why I practice malf drills and carry a backup gun. ;)

See what I was getting at?

Have fun at the range tomorrow! :cool:

Boats
April 17, 2003, 01:16 AM
Haven't you been listening to Michael Moore?

"How can there be error in comedy?":D

I am not so down on HK as I am down on the unearned mystique surrounding what is arguably the worst product in their current line-up.:evil: I still would like to add a P7M13 if the mag ban dies.

Cruiser
April 17, 2003, 01:51 PM
Bobarino,

The USP 40's we use sometimes fail to fire in DA. Pulling the trigger cocks the hammer back, but it just won't quite fall, no matter how hard you keep pulling. Also, the roll pin on the recoil spring assembly has a nasty habit of working its' way out and getting caught in the coils of the spring. That brings the gun to a screeching halt. Front sights frequently fall out of their dovetails. Shooters used to shooting 1911's and using a high-thumb grip tend to cause the USP to de-cock in the middle of a string of fire if too much pressure is put on the safety lever. That's not a major thing, but is distracting to say the least.

The guns rarely malfunction when they do shoot. I can't think of too many failures to eject or stovepipes or anything of that nature, so ammo is not a factor. We use Speer Lawman 180gr TMJ for practice & carry Speer 180gr Gold Dot for duty. We practice with duty ammo frequently to ensure the guns will function with that.

HK has been great at working with us and trying to fix the problems with these and our G36 rifles, but there comes a point where good customer service just can't overcome the mechanical failings of the product. By the way, the G36's work just fine- we had some major problems with the cheesy sights they put on them.

A couple of our guys still love the USP's because they're black and sexy and say "HK" on them, but most of us are looking forward to getting rid of them.

Shake
April 17, 2003, 06:06 PM
I keep hearing about this so-called "unearned mystique" regarding the USP, but fail to see it is an issue with the people I know who own H&Ks.

Pretty much the only place I see this discussed is on internet firearm BBs by people who don't like H&Ks.

As far as it being the worst product in their line-up. . . If their worst product fires everytime I pull the trigger, is the most accurate handgun I own in my hands (among numerous other makes and styles and in the "inaccurate" .40 S&W no less), fits my hand perfectly, has what is for me the fastest mag release around, can be configured to just about any fire control variant a person cares for, is easy to take down for cleaning, and is durable. . . H&K isn't doing too bad.

Seriously, does liking one design to the point of exclusivity mean that all others are POS? Many of you have come off as believing that to be the case.

I've found the USP to be my favorite gun for reasons listed above. The fact, though, that I like it best doesn't mean I think all other designs are ****. I can't stand GLOCKs because of their grip angle, but I happen to think they are great firearms regardless of some of their current problems.

YMMV, IMO and all that. . .

Shake

care-less
April 17, 2003, 06:55 PM
TAKE THE SAFETY OFF!!!!!! You can engage the safety of a USP with the hammer down. In which case THE HAMMER WILL COME HALF WAY BACK, BUT WON'T QUITE FALL.!!!!!! Why would anyone shoot with the high thumb position? Just plain dumb! Front sights on mine are so tight that it takes a really good whack to get them to move a hair; but if one is a little loose, a simple peening does the job. Jeeeeeeeeez:banghead:

10-Ring
April 17, 2003, 06:59 PM
I don't care what anybody says because all my guns are better than any of yours! :p :p ;)

Tamara
April 17, 2003, 07:30 PM
TAKE THE SAFETY OFF!!!!!! You can engage the safety of a USP with the hammer down. In which case THE HAMMER WILL COME HALF WAY BACK, BUT WON'T QUITE FALL.!!!!!! Why would anyone shoot with the high thumb position? Just plain dumb!

This is making me wonder if you know exactly what "high-thumbs" means or what Cruiser was talking about...

hondo68
April 17, 2003, 09:18 PM
.45 shooters have too much spare time while waiting for their bullets to reach their targets, hence all these silly posts.:neener:

Get a USP-C .357SIG.

care-less
April 17, 2003, 10:08 PM
know exactly what the "games" player technique is, know what he was describing also--just don't think he knows. Is the air thin up there?:neener:

Soap
April 17, 2003, 10:50 PM
Why would anyone shoot with the high thumb position? Just plain dumb!

High thumb isn't dumb, it is the correct technique.

By "High Thumb" I assume you all mean putting your thumb on the top of the frame mounted safety. If so, this is the correct way to go. If one were to place the thumb under the safety of a 1911, USP, CZ-75, etc., one could accidentally engage the safety while shooting.

In the case of the USP, no thumb position is ideal. If you go high thumb, you could decock it like Cruiser describes. If you go low thumb, you could engage the safety.

CB900F
April 17, 2003, 11:01 PM
Deltaelite;
Would you please give me a time reference as to when all these problems with the issue H&K's were happening? Something specific like between Aug 1998 and Feb 1991 would be nice. Those dates were just an illustrative example. An anecdotal reference such as: From the time we got 'em till last Wednesday, really isn't information, you understand. Thanks 900F

Boats
April 17, 2003, 11:58 PM
It's a hot night. The mind races. A 17 hour flight to La Paz etched in red traces on my eyeballs. I had packed my HK USP .40S&W with its captured recoil buffer system and Peters Stahlish lock up. I had two of its priceless magazines in a futuristic custom Bladetech retention system. Sweat trickles down the small of my back, saturating my black lock-knit HK polo shirt and threatens to soak my Royal Robbins Khaki travel pants. Good thing I am carrying strong-side. My feet are resilient in my Himalayan walking shoes. I thumb the decocker--or is it the safety? I can never tell and in the thin air I vow once again to never admit to anyone it might bother me.

Against a haze of air starved bugs and the cacaphony of a strange tongue clawing its way into the oxygenless atmosphere, I feel the Hostile Environment finish on the lever of the USP where I have it hidden from prying eyes. I try to reassure myself about my beyond top secret assignment. I feel the stippled black polymer--never call it plastic--and it feels like money--or at least like a credit card chewed upon by a teething kitten.

Nevertheless I feel better now. If I ever have to shoot from the bottom of an outhouse, the inside of a fish processing ship, Pamela Lee's boudoir--any repellant place at all--I have been reassured by the Company and literally thousands of internet street pros that I carry the final say in handguns. Tension is in the air, maybe I will torture my pistol before the dawn breaks. Maybe I will be tortured myself. . . .

Thirty hours later, lost near the Rio Camblaya following the coup attempt, a welcoming smile. Thank God she spotted the epaulettes on the Norwegian ice-fishing vest concealing my USP. I climb aboard the helo on my way to my next exotic assignment, my HK having proven itself in "combat" once again without firing a shot in anger. . . .

The World of Compromise Uncompromisingly cries out to my inner poseur. . . beckoning to me to tell the world of the superiority of my sidearm.:neener:

DeltaElite
April 18, 2003, 12:07 AM
CB900F,
We had the HK USP40's from 1994 until just a month ago in 2003.
The problem with the mag release was in the first year, the magazine problems and jamming were throughout the life of the weapon, up to their retirement just a month or so ago.

I don't expect anyone to believe me, it is the errornet afterall. :D

Contact the armorers at Tucson Police Dept in Tucson, Arizona.
They will be happy to tell you the problems with the HK USP weapon system.

Regards,
Mike

care-less
April 18, 2003, 09:00 AM
Daniel--- high thumb is not the correct technique! It is like holding your little pinkie up while drinkiing coffee. The thumb works only one way; wrapped around whatever, to get a good grip on it. Too many "Jeff Cooper Comic Book Series" readers out there. As far as new shooters reading this site for advice: I would advise "Don't". The High Road is a pretty muccy muddy ditch! It can be very comical to read all the **** if you know better, but for a beginner, it must be tough. Maybe we should all remember that.:mad: A small number just have to keep dragging everything down.:barf:

New_comer
April 18, 2003, 09:49 AM
But the "high thumb" method works for me. It allows for a higher hold on the grip, and creates pocket for the weak hand to slip right under the safety lever in a two hand grip. Also promotes the disabling of the safety lever when engaging from a C&L position.

No chance at all to accidentally decock the pistol, which if at all, only leads to a less than ideal DA shot, just as accurate for me, nonetheless...

The low thumb method HURTS! At gripping & recoil, the weak hand thumb tends to pinch the strong hand thumb against the lever, which may actually lead to accidental locking of the safety.

BUT.. I use low thumb for single hand shooting. Allows for a stronger hold and better stability. ;)

Soap
April 18, 2003, 09:51 AM
care-less- So where do you keep your thumb at then? And why?

CB900F
April 18, 2003, 10:15 AM
Speaking of thin air at high altitudes; I'm beginning to wonder if it isn't a hard vacuum between the ears & operating on radio waves from Mars. Snrk! 900F

Boats
April 18, 2003, 01:39 PM
care-less- So where do you keep your thumb at then? And why?

His thumb is wetted and firmly in the breeze. He is busy determining the direction from which tomorrow's best handgun will arrive when his HK is rendered "old school" by the latest tactical hyperbole.:D

The position is known as the "ninjitsu intermediate tactical wind indicator thumb," or NITWIT for short.:p

care-less
April 18, 2003, 01:41 PM
Daniel, I keep my them down and wrapped around the grip in such a way that the tip of my thumb rests on the top side of the tip of my middle finger. Darn, not sure I didn't put in too many tips! Hope i described it right. All I know is that you can't hold onto anything without using the opposing thumb the way it was designed to be used. Also, high thumb often leaves grip safety not properly depressed, just barely, if at all. Oh, you can get a grip safety with a built up pad I know. Best Regards.:) Boats, I see no reason for smart alec, insulting comments; but I guess that is just the only way you know how to respond. Too bad.

Boats
April 18, 2003, 03:53 PM
Aw schucks, I just thought that HK owners and their pistols were bombproof.:(

I was just having a little fun with the stereotype. Nothing personal. These types of boards are already so full of latter day, Mad Dog wielding, high speed-low drag, Shaolin monks who lack a sense of humor, that I have a hard time staying serious in these disinformation "debates.":D

I apologize if you feel personally attacked by anything I have written.

Soap
April 18, 2003, 03:59 PM
care-less- Hmm...I see how you do it but I prefer a high grip for better recoil control. When I hold it as you describe, the gun feels really high in my grip, almost like I can't really control it as well. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

care-less
April 18, 2003, 09:57 PM
Boats, my apologies to you also; sometimes my sense of humor doesn't keep up with reality. Thankyou for reminding me to bring it along. Daniel Flory, it really shouldn't feel too high, I don't get that one; but as you say, to each his own. As long as we all hit the target right? :) PS: by the way Boats; I really did get a kick out of your creative writing. got to admit

M1911
April 19, 2003, 03:26 PM
All I know is that you can't hold onto anything without using the opposing thumb the way it was designed to be used. Also, high thumb often leaves grip safety not properly depressed, just barely, if at all.Perhaps high-thumb doesn't work for you. But it works for me (and many other 1911 shooters). And I've never, ever had any problem with the grip safety not being properly depressed.

Sean Smith
April 19, 2003, 05:01 PM
This topic is still active? Wierd.

P.S. Everyone's grip is wrong but mine. And I'm not telling what mine is. :neener:

Andrew Wyatt
April 19, 2003, 06:14 PM
Daniel--- high thumb is not the correct technique! It is like holding your little pinkie up while drinkiing coffee. The thumb works only one way; wrapped around whatever, to get a good grip on it. Too many "Jeff Cooper Comic Book Series" readers out there.


odd. jeff cooper has fired more shots in anger than you, is responsible for more pioneering work in combat pistol shooting than you, and is only about half as condecending as you.


untill such time as a firearms company makes a pistol that actually fits my hand, i'll use the 1911, since with a short MSH and trigger, it seems to fit me the closest. (funny how such an outdated design has design elements in it that were considered "revolutionary" when they appeared on guns like the p99)

Soap
April 19, 2003, 10:22 PM
Sean- You turn your gun sideways and upside down too!? Sweet! :p

care-less
April 20, 2003, 06:47 PM
condescending? Never. Arrogant, maybe! Could really care less; Definitly.:neener:

Al Thompson
April 20, 2003, 08:16 PM
Thread drift. Say good night!

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