No decocker, no external safety handguns?


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Slimjim
February 10, 2006, 04:42 PM
What other handguns besides glocks lack these features? Im looking for a handgun for work (armed guard) , and i need one with these specs.

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MS .45
February 10, 2006, 04:48 PM
The XD models from Sringfield Armory might work. No manual safety, but it has the grip safety similar to 1911 style pistols. A friend of mine owns one in .40 caliber and it is a very solid, accurate and reliable pistol.

birddog
February 10, 2006, 05:03 PM
Just about any revolver you pick up. If that's an option.

doublebarrel
February 10, 2006, 06:00 PM
Most of the DAO pistols don't have safeties(Taurus and Para LDA are the exceptions). The true DAOs, those with each long and heavy trigger pull completely cocks the main spring from start to finish, each and every shot, don't really need safeties and decockers, as they decock after every shot. Ruger, Beretta, Smith, and others used to make this "old fashioned" kind(Taurus Mil Pro and 24/7 non-pro are real DAOs but safetied, and internally-locked), until Glock "revolutionized" what defines a DAO...

In the Glock camp, we have partially cocked or fully cocked guns, with somewhat longish and heavish trigger pull that calls themself DAO. They don't have safties either. And they LACK a decocker, because you usually need to dry fire to decock them, before you could field strip. HK LEM, Sig DAK, Para LDA(LDAs do have safeties. Either 1911 people really want something to do with their thumbs, or the trigger is just too light to go without a safety. After all, it's fully cocked internally), Springfield XD, Smith Sigma/M&P(M&P has a decocker, so does the Walther), Walther P99 QA/Smith SW990L, Kahr, Kel-Tec(I think the P11 has its spring fully at rest after each shot, that's why the trigger's so heavy), and other plastic striker-fired combat Tupperware I can't recall...

miko
February 10, 2006, 06:16 PM
Several HK P2000 versions (LEM) are like that.

miko

otomik
February 10, 2006, 06:58 PM
I was just reading a book by Massad Ayoob and he strongly believes that a manual safety is a small advantage in the user's favor especially when it's a duty type weapon worn exposed. He's written about reports from the field that verify that an external safety has saved lives. Somewhere around 10% of peace officers being shot are shot with their own weapons, an external safety can give an officer valuable time when a thug is unfamiliar with the duty gun.

I don't know the exact situation, maybe your employers specifies a weapon with such characteristics, but I feel this point of view should be represented on this thread.

my suggestions
Ruger GP-100, ne plus ultra of security guard guns
H&K P7 series, no decocker or safety but still an advantage over a thug grabbing your gun.

Slimjim
February 10, 2006, 07:21 PM
I was just reading a book by Massad Ayoob and he strongly believes that a manual safety is a small advantage in the user's favor especially when it's a duty type weapon worn exposed. He's written about reports from the field that verify that an external safety has saved lives. Somewhere around 10% of peace officers being shot are shot with their own weapons, an external safety can give an officer valuable time when a thug is unfamiliar with the duty gun.

I don't know the exact situation, maybe your employers specifies a weapon with such characteristics, but I feel this point of view should be represented on this thread.

my suggestions
Ruger GP-100, ne plus ultra of security guard guns
H&K P7 series, no decocker or safety but still an advantage over a thug grabbing your gun.

Yes, its a specification, otherwise id carry a 1911.

Logan5
February 10, 2006, 07:46 PM
Any of the 3rd generation DAO S&W autos should do it; 1046, 1086, 3953, 3954, 4043, 4044, 4046, 4546, 4556, 6946, and on and on and on...
Apparently the Px4 "Type C" is in this configuration as well.

pauli
February 10, 2006, 07:54 PM
if you'd otherwise be carrying a 1991, then an xd is definitely worth checking out.

MCgunner
February 10, 2006, 08:53 PM
Ruger makes DAO service pistols in their P series and they are reliable, affordable, and accurate. Any DAO will serve you. If I was doing armed guard work, I think I'd HAVE to carry a .357 magnum service revolver, though. :D I have two DAOs, but they're CCW guns. I like decockers in service sized autoloaders. There's just something about a big .357 magnum 4" service sized gun, though, that makes me feel WELL armed. It may not have the firepower, but you'll be wearing a duty belt. Just get some Safariland speedloaders.

Rockstar
February 10, 2006, 09:02 PM
So, what's wrong with Glocks? That's what 70% of l.e. uses?

As to Ayoob's info regarding external safeties for duty pistols: hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!

Meplat
February 10, 2006, 09:13 PM
What other handguns besides glocks lack these features? Im looking for a handgun for work (armed guard) , and i need one with these specs.

Have a Sig P226 DAO with no external safety. DA trigger pull is stiffer than SA, but it is consistent. Accuracy is EXCELLENT.

Meplat
February 10, 2006, 09:14 PM
So, what's wrong with Glocks? That's what 70% of l.e. uses?

As to Ayoob's info regarding external safeties for duty pistols: hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!

I take most of Mr. Ayoob's articles with a grain (large grain) of salt.

Slimjim
February 10, 2006, 09:18 PM
Have a Sig P226 DAO with no external safety. DA trigger pull is stiffer than SA, but it is consistent. Accuracy is EXCELLENT.

No external safety either? I like sigs alot, and wouldnt mind having one.

But if i do go with a revolver, its gonna be a Taurus 8 shot or a S&W 686 plus 7 shot.

Meplat
February 10, 2006, 09:56 PM
No external safety either? I like sigs alot, and wouldnt mind having one.

Nary a one. :) The one I have is one that a local gunshop owner ordered for me from LE trade ins. He had a friend who works in the warehouse who pulled a never issued model. I simply can find NO complaints as yet with this pistol, but I've only had it six years, and only fired it several hundred times. :D

But if i do go with a revolver, its gonna be a Taurus 8 shot or a S&W 686 plus 7 shot.

Got an old Taurus 66 with the six inch bbl. Only complaints I've had with it after several thousand rounds of (mostly) wadcutter and semi-wadcutter target loads is a propensity for the sideplate screw to back out under recoil after several (somewhere around every hundred or 150, if you don't keep the torque checked) rounds (tying up the cylinder and keeping it from indexing). Vexing problem that even Loc-Tite hasn't cured, and the timing of the cylinder itself needs to be addressed. But, it as accurate as any Smith (which it is patterned on - made on old S&W equipment aamof) and the timing issue really isn't surprising after twenty or so years and so many rounds being launched downrange from it. I wouldn't trust it as a defensive tool anymore for the above mentioned reasons, but suspect that with a little armorer's refurbishing both problems could be taken care of. As it is, it is still accurate enough to pot a squirrel with at thirty yards with SWC's. Since neither issue is a big deal as far as safety or accuracy goes, and the piece was $140 new, I just have not seen the need to have a bunch of work done on it.

I think, if anything, that Taurus's QC has gotten better over the years.

k_dawg
February 10, 2006, 09:58 PM
No external safety either? I like sigs alot, and wouldnt mind having one.

But if i do go with a revolver, its gonna be a Taurus 8 shot or a S&W 686 plus 7 shot.

SigArms also have their new "DAK" trigger, which I believe is similar to the H&K LEM trigger.

On both their traditional DOA, and their DAK, they feature no external/manual safety. They do have the traditional Sig internal safeties.

The DAK trigger is getting all the buzz, as that was developed for the huge department of homeland security order. The DAK has the avantage of multi-strike capability incase of misfire.

wrangler5
February 10, 2006, 09:58 PM
At the upper end of the price scale there's the HK-P7. Claimed by some to be the fastest to get into action of any gun available - the design gives "single action" (i.e. light and short) trigger action for all shots, but it automatically decocks when you relax your grip. Very high quallity, supposedly very reliable and accurate, but you pay for it (and they're not officially in production any more, but still available new.)

gudel
February 10, 2006, 09:58 PM
What other handguns besides glocks lack these features? Im looking for a handgun for work (armed guard) , and i need one with these specs.

I wouldn't say lack features, but features offered such as no decocker and no external safety switch.
since this is for work, armed guard, you want something that works very well, someting that works reliably at all time, you want something that works right out of the box without special tuning or sending it to a gunsmith for reliability work.
There's only one. :) HK P2000 LEM.

MCgunner
February 10, 2006, 10:05 PM
I wouldn't say lack features, but features offered such as no decocker and no external safety switch.
since this is for work, armed guard, you want something that works very well, someting that works reliably at all time, you want something that works right out of the box without special tuning or sending it to a gunsmith for reliability work.
There's only one. :) HK P2000 LEM.

Only one, eh? :rolleyes:

sm
February 10, 2006, 11:13 PM
Check your Employer Regulations.

Been a bit of time, but I used to assist with the training of some armed guards.
Most companies were very specific in what gun and ammo could be used in company regulations - and - this often was reflected on what the Insurance Company "said". Yeah that 'liability' bit.

Model 10 revolver is what most stated in Regulations. This had been THE mainstay forever.

One company allowed the Keltec P-11. Insurance Company went along with this.
Had to due with the P-11 having a hammer and not being "stiker fired".

Yeah some odd ideas when it comes to Regs and Insurance. Especially with the rate of turn-over some armored car companies had. Training...err...we did our best with what we had to work with to meet laws, standards, and budgets.

Glocks were added after the P-11.

This had to do with getting a deal on Glocks. I mean some folks had budgets and used Police trade in Model 10s were less expensive, then the P-11 then a Glock. I mean a payroll deduct hurts, best to get something affordable...and paid for quick.

Model 10 by far and large the most popular and used.

870 PGO shotguns...and I often drew short straw and had to do this instructing part.

[mumble-grumble.. I HATE PGO shotguns...don't mean I can't run one or teach it...mumble-grumble...

I dunno - Model 10 is proven and even today many guns continue to hope to achieve just some of what the Model has done / continues to do /will do in the future.

otomik
February 11, 2006, 11:44 AM
I take most of Mr. Ayoob's articles with a grain (large grain) of salt.anything in particular that comes to mind? throw me a link.

Smith Model 10, and k frames in general, especially tapered barrel, look so classic

Meplat
February 11, 2006, 10:48 PM
anything in particular that comes to mind? throw me a link.

Smith Model 10, and k frames in general, especially tapered barrel, look so classic

You know, I really am glad you asked that question. Quite honestly, I pretty much quit reading his articles years ago when he was such a proponent of the MagnaSafe Trigger system. It seemed to me that he harped on that particular "smart gun" technology WAY too often, and it didn't then, and surely doesn't now, seem to me to be the panacea he hailed it as for any great solution for private gun owners. In the hands of a LEO who might be the ONLY one in need of a particular firearm, it might possibly have some advantages, but I could also see scenarios that could get you graveyard dead by having one installed on your handgun. I think a lot of folks read his articles and thought "Wow. This guy has this thing down to a science, and if such an expert thinks the MagnaTrigger is such a great system, I surely need it too." The truth is, my wife, daughter and son are well versed in the use of a handgun, and the LAST thing in the world I would want is for them to NEED one and find that they have hefted the equivelent of a rock to toss at an assailant. And I could just as well picture me removing the ring and not having it on when I needed it. (Millions of us 'Merkans work in occupations where jewelry of any kind is a safety concern. I had a cousin who lost a finger when he jumped down off of a dozier after a day's work and got his wedding band hung up. Cousin came down, finger stayed behind. I can very easily envision a police officer, in hot pursuit, jumping a fence and having the same thing happen, rendering him not only short of one booger hook, but effectively disarmed as well as disfingered). To ask an assailant to "please hold on while I find my ring and put it on" just did NOT seem like a grand idea to me. It even more so seems like a bad idea to me now. It seems that far too many in the gun writer's field have sown the seeds of some of our own pitfalls, even if unwittingly. Proposed "smart-gun" laws garnered from these ideas are just not that smart, imo. The leftists got the ideas from the gun press, though. It's not like they (the leftists) are all that original. Sure, you and I know that "assault weapons" are weapons with selective fire switches, but the media has brainwashed the masses into believing "semi-auto military look-alikes" are "assault weapons" when they are not. (Not laying THAT one at Mr. Ayoob's doorstep, mind you). Before any of the media outlets were screaming "assault weapon" this and "assault weapon" that, many gun publications were refering to these semi-autos with that term. There were entire magazines devoted to "assault weapons" that were all civilian available semi-auto military look-alikes. Another example is the "Black Talon" frenzy. It mainly resulted from the ad hype from Winchester in it's over-the-top campaign. While it sold tons of ammo, it also garnered tons of reaction from the hoplophobic. (Again, not Mr. Ayoob's fault by any means). It just seems incumbent upon anyone with a large loyal following to think things through to their potential consequences before extolling their virtues. They anti's aren't really that smart, and I don't believe for one instant that they don't watch our publications for any ammunition (pardon the pun) that they can find to use against us. "Smart guns? See, Massad Ayoob, a VERY well known expert in the field recommends the technology. Why shouldn't we DEMAND it's use for the EVERYONE?"

Another thing that put me off Mr. Ayoob was the fact that early on, he jumped on the Glaser Safety Slug bandwagon with both feet. I didn't think then, nor do I now, that the GSS was such a great idea for self defense. I just hope that no one actually died because they read an Ayoob article, believed his hype (at the time) and found the Glaser to be not all it was advertised to be.

Having said that, back to the part about me being glad you asked. It gave me pause enough to go back and read some of Mr. Ayoobs more recent pennings. I have visited some websites and seen that he does make some very good points on firearms usage for self defense, and that he has made some positional changes on the Glaser Safety Slug issue, although from what I have been able to dig up, he doesn't go far enough on that point. I have also not seen anything that I have found in his recent writings that indicate that he is still a MagnaSafe Trigger fanatic (although he may be...I just haven't found anything yet that indicates this is so.) Had you not asked the question, I probably would not have gone digging, and for that, I thank you. One reason I came to this forum to begin with...to find people who are capable of making me go "hmmmm...."

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