[Nematocyst]

This is a developing story in my neck of the woods (a few miles from where I live and work).

It happended Friday morning around 5 AM, and was reported on all the local news channels tonight. Details are still variable (vary a bit with the news report), but here's the transcript of one account from a reasonably reliable source.

I'd like to know what HD loads the surviving victim had in his shotgun, and why it (ostensibly) required 3 rnds to stop the intruder.

Story @ 11.

Nem
_________

http://www.kezi.com/content/contentID/12583

D.A.: Shooting at Veneta Apartment Justified as Self Defense

An intruder attacks a Veneta [OR] man in his own home..
The intruder is shot dead.
The District Attorney's Office is calling the shooting... self defense.
It all started with a knock at the door.
When it was over... one person was dead... the home owner suffered some minjor injuries.
It happened at the Applegate Apartments inside unit four.
Deputies say a man knocked on Tony Hernandez's door around five A.M.
Hernandez says he opened the door and was attacked by a man using a baton-type weapon.
The man told Hernandez he was going to kill him.
"He was hit a number of times.. struggled around the bottom floor of the complex moving around.. it started at the door.. ended up towards the back," said Lt. Randy Smith, with the Lane County Sheriff's Office.
Deputies say Hernandez was able to get away.
He got his shotgun... ended up shooting the intruder several times.
The sheriff's office says Hernandez didn't know the suspect.
Meanwhile, residents around here say there isn't enough police presence in their town.
"As for the neighborhood, i love Veneta but i do think we need more police patrol," said Maggie Robertson, who lives nearby.
At a press conference Friday afternoon... the Lane County District Attorney said Hernandez was justified in shooting the intruder because he feared for his life.
At this time there's no motive as to why the man attacked Hernandez.
The intruder hasn't been identified.
An autopsy is scheduled for Saturday.
Hernandez was treated for injuries to his head and back.
The investigation continues.

[BigRobT]

An intruder comes in MY house wishing or threatening to do me harm, I'll empty the entire 15 rounds my 10 MM holds into him, if that's what it takes!!! He may have been using shot, probably #4 or something, hard to say at this point. When I was in Va, the only gun I had was a 12 ga. I loaded the first two rounds with bird shot and the next three with slugs in hopes that the first two rounds just going off would run an intruder away. If they didn't, I had three much more deadly rounds to fall back on.

[Nematocyst]

The local FOX channel (85) offers a news report at 10 PM.
(Ahead of those who do it at 11. Competition at work on the airwaves.)

Tonight, this was one of their top stories.

Sheriff Dept officials were filmed asserting:

1) given that police budgets in that part of the county are inadequate, resulting in too few police responders, people there have a right to defend themselves in their home;

2) this was a justified shooting.

More @ 11.

Nem

[Taurus 66]

I'd like to know what HD loads the surviving victim had in his shotgun, and why it (ostensibly) required 3 rnds to stop the intruder.


It is quite possible the first shot stopped the intruder. The other two that followed were delivered probably because from the victim's perspective during his fight for survival, he didn't recognize the initial shot as sufficient in stopping the attack. Though the intruder may have been still upright, doesn't mean he wasn't feeling it. He was undoubtedly fading fast after the initial hit.

If all three were center mass, an autopsy could never prove which of the three shots did the job, or if it took two or all three to do it.

[Nematocyst]

It is quite possible the first shot stopped the intruder. The other two that followed were delivered probably because from the victim's perspective during his fight for survival, he didn't recognize the initial shot as sufficient in stopping the attack. Though the intruder may have been still upright, doesn't mean he wasn't feeling it. He was undoubtedly fading fast after the initial hit.

If all three were center mass, an autopsy could never prove which of the three shots did the job, or if it took two or all three to do it. Excellent hypothesis.

Makes perfectly good sense, biologically (physiologically) speaking.

I'll see what I can turn up in support of it.

Nem

[strambo]

I missed it, the news is usually so lame around here, I was watching a documentary about Iwo Jima on the History Channel instead. Lots of one-shot flame thrower stops.

[Nematocyst]

Lots of one-shot flame thrower stops. LOL.

Yeah, those flame throwers got the advantage in terms of 'one shot stops'.

Don't just shoot it; cook it.

:evil:

[Taurus 66]

Breaking it down:

The District Attorney's Office is calling the shooting... self defense.

This is good - DA in favor of the victim.

Deputies say a man knocked on Tony Hernandez's door around five A.M.

I would not just open the door to a knock, especially at 5 AM. I'd talk through the door to who's on the other side. If they needed help, I'll dial 9-1-1.

Hernandez says he opened the door and was attacked by a man using a baton-type weapon.

A potentially lethal device.

He got his shotgun... ended up shooting the intruder several times.

The BG got what was coming to him. He is on someone else's property (not his own turf) knocking at 5 AM, busts in and assaults the homeowner.

The intruder hasn't been identified.

Aww, didn't the medical examiners ever piece together jigsaw puzzles as youngsters? It shouldn't take too long.

Hernandez was treated for injuries to his head and back.


The intruder was treated with dremmel tools, saws, sutures, stitching instruments, formaldehyde, and a blue suit.

[Nematocyst]

I would not just open the door to a knock, especially at 5 AM. It seems that the entire story just boils down to that, don't it?

If that door hadn't been opened, there'd have been no story,
and the local news channels would have sold one less {truck, tire, hamburger, stereo, sleep aid...}

<Makes mental note: don't open the door at 5 AM without knowing who's on the other side,
or at the very least, having the 9mm close at hand.>

Nem

[Taurus 66]

It seems that the entire story just boils down to that, don't it?

If that door hadn't been opened, there'd have been no story,
and the local news channel would have sold one less {truck, tire, hamburger, stereo, sleep aid...}

<Makes mental note: don't open the door without knowing who's on the other side.>

Nem

Wow! I see your point. If this is the case, the ads are out of whack. Remington, Winchester, and products alike should surface. ;) :D

[Nematocyst]

Wow! I see your point. If this is the case, the ads are out of whack. Remington, Winchester, and products alike should surface. ;) :D Would that be cool or what?

We can hope. ;)

Nem

[Mad Chemist]

Wow, that makes two shootings in Veneta within the last 72 hours. It used to be a nice quiet town. I guess things are changing around here.

BTW, Nem and Strambo I live in S. Eugene and practice with the pistol off of Wolf Creek Rd. nearly every weekend. If y'all want to get together for some practice then PM me.

JH

[Fred Fuller]

Nem,

I'd be the last to want to ding your confidence in a shotgun as a stopper, but you still have to hit vital areas with a heavy load to stop reliably even with a shotgun (just ask Jim Cirillo). With ANY firearm you have two factors- penetration and placement. Neither one alone will do, you have to have BOTH. That is why I repeatedly emphasize the necessity of the shooter doing his or her part, why I focus more on software than hardware.

It could be that in the struggle, the first shot or two were only peripheral hits. Many defensive shotgun instructors teach a muzzle-down ready position so that anyone who grabs a defender's shotgun at close quarters can be more easily dealt with, it could be the first round or two were lower extremity hits. I don't know what the circumstances were, please do report them if you hear details.

Meanwhile, take a look at this case from Australia that I use as an object lesson in teaching that shotguns are not a magic wand/panacea for self defense (AND why I suggest 00 buckshot as a minimum load)- https://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/173_11_041200/herdson/herdson.html .

Regards,

lpl/nc

[Biker]

Wow. That's eye opening. Thanks Lee.
Biker

[Nematocyst]

Lee, I'm with Biker there: that's a real eye opener. Thanks. Good knowledge with wisdom, as always.

Excellent points about penetration and placement. Thanks for the reminder. It bears repeating often, and makes me glad my 870 is loaded with 00. I've also found a great class in shotgun for SD just up the road. It's on my list for spring/early summer.

I gotta say, the guy in the story (Austrailian) really wanted to die. That's a difficult story to read, let alone imagine.

I don't know what the circumstances were, please do report them if you hear details.A friend of mine is a county employee who will probably be either directly or indirectly involved in the investigation, and will have access to details that the media won't report. I'm requesting to get some of those details to the extent that it's legal. (I don't want to share any info that would negatively impact the investigation or legal matters.)

I'll let you know what I can find out.

Nem

[Shotgun12]

.... If that door hadn't been opened, there'd have been no story ....
Nem

There probably would have been a story - just slightly different, involving one of this guy's neighbors instead .... "Intruder kills [unarmed] local resident"

[Bart Noir]

From that Aussie report:
Shotguns of this type are now banned in Australia. As suicide weapons they are far from ideal, partly because of the length of the barrel, and partly because of their significant recoil.
So the recoil of an auto-loader is worse than a single-barrel? And recoil is a factor in suicide?

That just seemed like a dumb statement to me.

Bart Noir

[bigun15]

So the recoil of an auto-loader is worse than a single-barrel?

I've fired 12 gauges hundreds of times, but I've only fired a single-shot once for a reason :)

[Fred Fuller]

From the document: " A pump-action shotgun was lying about a metre from the body... ."
=============
And yes, that statement about recoil as a factor in suicides seemed pretty much off the wall to me also. But I didn't write it, I just posted it.

Nem, reports from the coroner/medical examiner are generally required in instances of violent or suspicious deaths, and are matters of public record in some states. They can be requested and obtained if the record is not sealed for some reason. Usually it takes weeks or months for the report to be finalized though.

lpl/nc

[Standing Wolf]

"As for the neighborhood, i love Veneta but i do think we need more police patrol," said Maggie Robertson, who lives nearby.

What neighborhood or town doesn't?

That said™, the police don't prevent crime. They write crime reports. Sometimes, they solve crimes.

[Nematocyst]

Nem, reports from the coroner/medical examiner are generally required in instances of violent or suspicious deaths, and are matters of public record in some states. They can be requested and obtained if the record is not sealed for some reason. Usually it takes weeks or months for the report to be finalized though. Yeah, my friend works in the medical examiner's office. I can hopefully get ahold of the report more quickly and easily that way.

Nem

[Nematocyst]

Just spoke to a person in the know about this case tonight.

He tells me this is a matter of public record.

The shooting involved a .410 shotgun with 00 buckshot.

Apparently, the (deceased) assailant banged on the shooter's door, demanding to be let in. (He claims he did not know the person he shot, but why would one open the door in such circumstances...that remains unclear.)

The assailant starting beating the shooter with a bat or baton. The shooter managed to break away to get his shotgun.

At that point, apparently, the assailant tried to get away, but got trapped in a corner and was shot 3 times. That's an interest point that I'm a bit confused about: if the assailant was trying to get away, can the shooter still legally shoot him? (Morally is a different question. Can he legally shoot an assailant that is trying to flee?)

(I just remembered: I forgot to inquire about where the shots hit his body.)

If I learn more, I'll post it.

Nem

[Fred Fuller]

Nem,

Unfortunately we live in a time when legality is a very fluid thing. I'd think that shooting a fleeing/retreating assailant would get the shooter in deep trouble in any jurisdiction in the country. In a perfect world, it would.

But we don't live in a perfect world. Interpretation of "the rules" differs from person to person, place to place, time to time and from circumstance to circumstance. It is enough to shake one's confidence in the legal system and its minions entirely, if one ever managed to accumulate such confidence to begin with.

It's not just this incident I refer to, of course, but others as well that have transpired under less than optimal circumstances. It would be nice to be able to operate with a certain confidence that being 'in the right' was some protection from the lady with the blindfold and the scales (not to mention the sword). Unfortunately all the blindfold seems to mean in some cases these days is that she can't tell right from wrong.

lpl/nc

[NineseveN]

a .410 with 00Buck?

Keep us posted Nem.

[Nematocyst]

Lee, good points. Ambiguity rules.

a .410 with 00Buck? I found that strange, too, NineseveN.

In fact, I questioned the statement when I first heard it, but did a search on .410 ammunition. Indeed, it's available (it seems in 3" shells).

Nem

[226]

5 pellets (http://www.the-armory.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/product384.html) http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/smiley_bucktooth.gif

[Nematocyst]

I was wondering about how many pellets there would be in a .410 00 rnd. I'm suprized in some ways that it's even that many.

Nem

[NineseveN]

Lol, I was thinking like, 2 or 3, then I thought, "what would be the point of that? Might as well use a rifle at that point"...guess I was wrong.

[bobaloo]

Fortunately in Oregon as a matter of law it is legal to use lethal force against someone who is committing a burglary, period, no other justification needed, none of the usual three-pronged analysis, etc.

As the instructor of my CHL class put it, it's a lousy law but good public policy. The reason for saying it's a lousy law is this hypothetical...you come home and find your 9 year-old neighbor kid in your house apparently stealing some CD's. Under this law you are legally within your rights to shoot him.

Fortunately common sense has generally prevailed so far and the law seems to be working well.

[NineseveN]

Fortunately in Oregon as a matter of law it is legal to use lethal force against someone who is committing a burglary, period, no other justification needed, none of the usual three-pronged analysis, etc.

As the instructor of my CHL class put it, it's a lousy law but good public policy. The reason for saying it's a lousy law is this hypothetical...you come home and find your 9 year-old neighbor kid in your house apparently stealing some CD's. Under this law you are legally within your rights to shoot him.

Fortunately common sense has generally prevailed so far and the law seems to be working well.

That's because an otherwise honest citizen will not commit murder, and the crooks are obviously already intent on breaking the law.

[Nematocyst]

Fortunately in Oregon as a matter of law it is legal to use lethal force against someone who is committing a burglary, period, no other justification needed, none of the usual three-pronged analysis, etc.Just one more reason to live in this interesting state (with appropriate attention to ethical & responsible application of said law).

Thanks, Bobaloo.

Nem

[Nematocyst]

A few days ago, I learned from an authoritative source that
the perp in this case (finally) died from a .410 00 rnd to COM.

At least one other rnd hit him in the groin.

Ouch, that must have hurt. :what:

But the rnd that lead to death was COM.

The lesson from this story:
even a .410 00 will lead to death.

Just imagine what a 12 ga. 00 will do.

Mine is just 30 steps away from where I type this,
and less than 5 from where I sleep
(behind an interior solid core door with a dead bolt {metaphor intentional).

In both cases, I've got a K9 on my right side to help get to it.

What, me worry? :cool:

Nem

[MrChicken]

Nem asks:
"At that point, apparently, the assailant tried to get away, but got trapped in a corner and was shot 3 times. That's an interest point that I'm a bit confused about: if the assailant was trying to get away, can the shooter still legally shoot him? (Morally is a different question. Can he legally shoot an assailant that is trying to flee?)"

Lee replies:
"Unfortunately we live in a time when legality is a very fluid thing. I'd think that shooting a fleeing/retreating assailant would get the shooter in deep trouble in any jurisdiction in the country. In a perfect world, it would."

Most rooms in a house are small, much less than the 21 feet we all know so much about. A cornered BG in a small apartment may be as little 14 feet away with the BG in one corner and the GG in the other. Actual room layout could make this much closer than that.

If he shot him in the front, good. Square in the back, bad, most likely. Given that it was real early and he had already taken a series of blows, I'm willing to cut him some slack on his ability to make split second decisions that we have forever to disect.

Obvious ways to avoid this:
1. Don't force your way into a home and beat the occupant.
2. Don't open the door for a screaming nutbag.