AK-47 Accuracy or not


PDA






MGK
February 11, 2006, 07:14 PM
I picked up a Romanian Wasr-3, .223 caliber, not 7.62x39, at fifty yards, from a rest I am getting 4-5" groups, from 100 yards my groups are all over the place 12 - 18". Tried different ammo (Winchester, Remington, Brown Bear, Wolf) all yield about the same results. Everything appears to be tight. Anything I should be checking to improve the groups or is this as "GOOD" as it gets? What sizr groups should I expect?

MGK

If you enjoyed reading about "AK-47 Accuracy or not" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
jobu07
February 11, 2006, 07:30 PM
Hmmm. Maybe your trigger is in need of some polishing? Is it gritty and creepy? Are you pulling rather than squeezing? The gun should shoot better than that.

ghost squire
February 11, 2006, 07:34 PM
Out of curiosity, what is the accuracy of the average AK?

EghtySx
February 11, 2006, 07:38 PM
I get 3 to 4 inches from my SAR-1 in 7.62. I think thats about average.

garrett1955
February 11, 2006, 07:40 PM
do you have a slant brake on it??? if so put some teflon tape on the threads. that will keep it from wabling and improve your groups a lot!:)

thunder
February 11, 2006, 07:43 PM
Is that at 100 yds EghtySx? The AK is somewhat notorious for it's inaccuracy. I've no experience and too have wondered how true these rumors are.

ribbonstone
February 11, 2006, 07:51 PM
Call it 4MOA for a good example....but not with the cheap mil.surp. ammo.

Seldom get a direct expanion of groups with range...2" at 50 doesn't "have" to work out to 4" at 100, but going from 4-5" groups at 50 to 12-14" groups at 100 does indicate something not being right. Most likely, it's the iron sights and the shooter...AK sights are pretty close set, so a tiny error results in a large movement on the target. Sights are best (and perhaps kindly) described as "coarse".

Don't Tread On Me
February 11, 2006, 07:51 PM
It has been my experience that almost every single WASR I've ever seen had an uneven, and also, rounded crown. That's 2 negatives right there. I've seen dozens and don't recall a single one I'd want to own.


Check yours. If that's what you see, find a gunsmith who can fix that. That should cut your groups down in half at least. The AK isn't going to be an MOA gun, but the groups you describe are terrible even for an AK.

Rambosky
February 11, 2006, 08:04 PM
The AK47 was originally designed as a full auto assault rifle with loose tolerances for minimal maintenance. Sniper rifle it's not. Don't get caught up in spending money in order to make it something it's not.

MGK
February 11, 2006, 08:11 PM
Don't tread on me

It does indeed have a rounded crown on it. I may a have smith look at it and get it recrowned.


Rambosky
I have other rifles for sniping, just looking to be average 4-5 moa, would be acceptable

Anything else to check out, thanks for the ideas

Don't Tread On Me
February 11, 2006, 08:14 PM
Have that smith level it, then cut it nice and sharp. That will help immensly!!


Why do you suppose that everyone raves on and on about the Bulgarians, Vepr's and Saigas? There is nothing special about them accuracy wise. They just have nice clean even sharp crowns!!


It shouldn't cost much. Make sure he touches up the finish on the end after he does the work.

MGK
February 11, 2006, 08:20 PM
Don't tread on me

I'll see if I can find a smith that will do it. Been a while since I had a smith do any work.


MGK

MTMilitiaman
February 11, 2006, 10:10 PM
I can keep em 4 MOA at 50 yards from a knee with Wolf from my Rommie 7.62. Bench accuracy at 100 yards is about 4 MOA as well. I am expecting better when I get a scope on it--either a PK-AS or Kobra. I just replied similarly to Colt's thread but the AK should be easily COM at 200 or 300 yards. Something is wrong with your rifle.

AKs may not be poodle shooters, but they are certainly accurate enough for their purpose--Minute Of Bad Guy out to 300 yards.

beerslurpy
February 11, 2006, 10:17 PM
As long as your scope isnt loose you should be getting 5 moa or less even with cheap ammo. 16 moa is crazy unless you were practicing during a hurricane.

EghtySx
February 11, 2006, 10:27 PM
Is that at 100 yds EghtySx? The AK is somewhat notorious for it's inaccuracy. I've no experience and too have wondered how true these rumors are.

Yessir. 100 yards.

MechAg94
February 12, 2006, 12:12 AM
Get a better AK?

My Vepr K in 7.62 will easily do 4" or 5" at 100 yards. I haven't heard too much experience with .223 AK's. There have been those on this site who have gotten decent accuracy with the Romanians.

MTMilitiaman
February 12, 2006, 01:00 AM
You might as well check out my reply to this topic under the same sign-in name. I got pics...

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199402

clange
February 12, 2006, 04:17 AM
My SAR-1 has done .8" at 60-65 yards with a red dot. Until I added a red dot, and really took my time, the best it would do was 6-8" at 100. My MAK-90 was similar.

The irons are horrible, for me at least, and the wolf ammo probably doent help either. If I had never shot that group I'd be another guy on here saying AKs have bad accuracy. The rifle is clearly more accurate than I am.

I'm not saying thats the case here, it sounds like something is really wrong with yours, I'm just saying that the AKs reputation for horrible accuracy isnt deserved from what I've seen.

MTMilitiaman
February 12, 2006, 04:48 AM
Clange, I agree. The short sight radius and overall poor design of the sights is largely responsible for the AK's reputation for being inaccurate. The Mojos help, but can't remedy the rifle's short sight radius. I can't wait to get a good red dot on my AK and see what it is really capable of.

Coronach
February 12, 2006, 05:16 AM
Why do you suppose that everyone raves on and on about the Bulgarians, Vepr's and Saigas? There is nothing special about them accuracy wise. They just have nice clean even sharp crowns!!Dunno about the other ones, but the Vepr also benefits from having a nice stiff barrel and receiver, too.

loose tolerancesClearances, actually.

AKs may not be poodle shooters, but they are certainly accurate enough for their purpose--Minute Of Bad Guy out to 300 yards.Well, I'd say that the original purpose of the AK was "Minute of Good Guy out to 300 yards", but that's just me. :D

Mike

Firehand
February 12, 2006, 11:11 AM
Among other things I've found out that affect accuracy,
1. polishing the trigger helps a bit
2. fitting the gas tube. If it fits really tight, it tends to force the barrel to shift when things get hot.

Don't Tread On Me
February 12, 2006, 02:18 PM
Yes, the high end AK's do benefit from a stiffer action and stiffer barrel...but that is not the main factor in accuracy.


The guy posted that his crown was rounded, just as I suggested it might be. That's what's giving him horrible accuracy. Once he fixes that, his WASR should be shooting close to the higher-end AK's.

benEzra
February 12, 2006, 04:39 PM
MGK, if I had to guess, your problem is probably the sights; I couldn't shoot my SAR-1 worth crap until I opened up the rear sight notch a little with a sharp V-file, so that I could actually see the entire front sight post. I've gotten 2.5" groups at 50 yards, both with and without optics, though not always consistently.

Having said that, also check your benchresting technique. The AK design is very sensitive to how it's benchrested and it's not an easy rifle to shoot from a rest. A fairly firm rest placed under the handguard will cause the rifle to jump off the rest when fired, when the heavy gas piston gets launched toward the rear while the bullet is still in the barrel. I've had best results with a softer bag (suede bag filled 3/4 full with corncob, sitting on top a benchrest), with the bag placed as far to the rear as possible--ideally touching the front of the magazine--and also using a rear bag under the butt. The further to the rear the rifle is supported, the more stable it will be. Also try to keep the downward pressure consistent from shot to shot.

Mannlicher
February 12, 2006, 06:14 PM
I get a fairly consistant 3 inches, +/- at 100 meters. I have been shooting the Wolf 124 grain HP for years.

MGK
February 13, 2006, 10:03 AM
BenEzra

I'll look at the sights and think about what you said. Your comments about a semi auto on a benchrest interest me, any thoughts beyond what you wrote?
I usually shoot bolt action rifles with no issues, but their is a difference between semi-action and bolt action rifles on a bench rest.

Anyone else have thoughts about benchresting and semiautos?

The Wasr 3 came with a Tapco G2 trigger, so the trigger action seems to be fine. Barrel appears tight, but is it square to the reciever, don't know.

These guns come in as parts kits and are assembled in the US, how good is the work? don't know?

The target I got with the rifle showed a reasonable groups (2" group). Distance shot at? don't know Ammo used? don't know? Ranson rest used? don't know? From the rifle I bought? don't know.

The best I have ever done is a 4" group @ 50 yds with this rifle, have put about 200 rounds through it.

benEzra
February 13, 2006, 10:41 AM
I'll look at the sights and think about what you said. Your comments about a semi auto on a benchrest interest me, any thoughts beyond what you wrote?

I usually shoot bolt action rifles with no issues, but their is a difference between semi-action and bolt action rifles on a bench rest.
Less difference between a bolt gun and an AR-15 than between a bolt gun and an AK lookalike.

The AR uses a direct-impingement gas system, so about the only thing that moves when you shoot it (other than the firing mechanism) is the fairly lightweight bolt carrier assembly.

The AK uses a heavy long-stroke gas piston and bolt carrier assembly that's built like a T-72 tank. It probably weighs a significant percentage of the rifle's total weight, and when it gets blasted rearward at hundreds of g's by thousands of psi of gas pressure as the bullet passes the gas block, you can surmise that it produces lots of vibrations. The initial force on the gas block acts to bend the barrel and forend downward (think of applying a ton or two of force to the top of the gas block, directed forward), followed immediately by a rebound as the gas piston starts to move and the pressure vents.

In a bolt-action rifle, by contrast, the only thing that moves inside the gun after the cartridge is ignited is the bullet, and there aren't any significant off-axis barrel bending torques unless you have really bad bedding issues.

If you think the sights might be the problem, you could look into a siderail-mount optical sight (like a Kobra or POSP--expensive experiment, though) or a traditional red-dot on an Ultimak scout mount to see if that helps. Also examine your barrel crown.

You might also try some of the 154-grain 7.62x39mm loads, as those have been reputed to be somewhat more accurate than the lighter loads. (I have no experience with those, though.)

Don't Tread On Me
February 13, 2006, 02:53 PM
The Military Channel had a program on a while back that compared various arms of ours vs. our enemies. One program spent 20 minutes of the total 60 minutes on the AR-15 vs. AK-47. Covering topics such as accuracy, reliability, penetration, and other things.

In one instance, they showed high-speed video of an AK and AR firing (during the recoil part). The difference between the two is absolutely significant in that aspect. The AK was vibrating and wobbling all around as it fired. The AR did also, but to a much, much less degree. They attributed this to the higher carrier mass of the AK and the fact that it is situated up higher on the rifle, whereas the AR is an in-line system.

j grimes
February 13, 2006, 03:08 PM
I picked up a Romanian Wasr-3, .223 caliber, not 7.62x39, at fifty yards, from a rest I am getting 4-5" groups, from 100 yards my groups are all over the place 12 - 18". Tried different ammo (Winchester, Remington, Brown Bear, Wolf) all yield about the same results. Everything appears to be tight. Anything I should be checking to improve the groups or is this as "GOOD" as it gets? What sizr groups should I expect?

MGK

MTMilitiaman
February 13, 2006, 06:32 PM
I have an SKS that I haven't done anything to at all except put TechSights on it that'll do 2" groups at 100 yards.

Also the heavier recipricating mass of the AK does lend itself to more accuracy, but it is also part of what makes the system so reliable.

briang2ad
February 13, 2006, 07:19 PM
1) I think the average distance of engagement in the recent combat is about 30-50m. Kinda reduces the whole accuracy thing.

2) The AK is more reliable in a variety of conditions.

3) The AK goes bang in a big way. A SEAL friend of mine likes guns that make a big bang when clearing rooms - it intimidates people. At close combat ranges, the AK makes a bigger hole - more likely to kill the BG.

MechAg94
February 13, 2006, 08:01 PM
I have an SKS that I haven't done anything to at all except put TechSights on it that'll do 2" groups at 100 yards.

Also the heavier recipricating mass of the AK does lend itself to more accuracy, but it is also part of what makes the system so reliable.
I got some Tech Sights on a Yugo also. I haven't shot it at a range, but I can hit 4" clays at 100 yards. I like the Tech Sights.

If you enjoyed reading about "AK-47 Accuracy or not" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!