What is the source of domestic anti-Americanism?


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Fletchette
February 11, 2006, 07:48 PM
I was perusing an un-named left-leaning political site, and noticed a thread that basically ranted about how people with pro-American bumper stickers were bigots. I have noticed this attitude from some Americans for many years now, and wonder where it comes from.

Note: I feel that this question applies to this forum as it is definitely "political" and many of the posters on that thread immediately wanted to outlaw said bumper stickers (First Amendmant violation). This question is not intended to start a liberal-bashing thread; I would like to know how and why a literal anti-American culture developed in this country.

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longeyes
February 11, 2006, 07:50 PM
They have "father issues."

Art Eatman
February 11, 2006, 08:04 PM
I ain't a Pshrink, but I was raised by a Psych PhD, and have watched people for a long time:

Low self-esteem. Inherent pessism. Often, a dislike of self. Focussed on abstractions.

Often, a distaste for reality. Evinced by a lot of wishing about how things oughta be, instead of recognizing how things are and working within an existing system.

Often, scorn for those who are "merely" practical. A common trait is the "I have THE answer; why won't you listen?"

Method oriented, rather than goal oriented. This means a tendency to judge by goals, not by accomplishments. Most obvious when talking about welfare programs.

Obviously, not ALL of the above in any one person, but there are commonly a couple or three of them.

Art

anthillsinrome
February 11, 2006, 08:11 PM
I cannot imagine or remember any country/nation/government/etc. that has not had a share of detractors and critics within its own citizenry.

Are there more such anti-American types here than would be found in most other nations? Maybe, but given our country and culture's tradition (appreciation?) of independent thought, unbridled free speech, and an ever-present desire to grow and improve as a country and a people, their presence might just seem greater than it is.

Those you describe seem like fools, and both sides of the political spectrum here in the U.S. have more than their fair share.

Libertyteeth
February 11, 2006, 08:19 PM
In discussing "anti Americanism", a distinction should be made between opposing traditional American culture and America's tradition of individual freedom and liberty under the Constitution and Bill of Rights -- and opposing the policies of the regime currently in power in Washington DC. (Regardless of which party.) America is its people and its traditions, not a collection of power mongers sitting in positions of power, who generally do not have the interests of the people foremost in their minds.

Malone LaVeigh
February 11, 2006, 08:21 PM
http://www.samueljohnson.com/refuge.html

James T Thomas
February 11, 2006, 08:21 PM
Try this perspective.
Fuming, gold plated arrogance, alloyed with ever present child like self interest.

It never started, but has been here all along. Example: the Americans here at the time of our Revolution, who, having witnessed the oppression of the King and his tyranny, sided with him against their neighbors and friends -regardless. Torries or liberals.

Another forum subject is "Spies." The mindset is this. They are not satisfied that they know best for you and yours, but are compelled to eavesdrop, to insinuate themselves into THR and by guile attempt to make what seems to them to be logical arguments for the "liberal" viewpoint.
Case in point. Some of the Bush depiction threads that give half truths, etc.

You probably met some of these people as early as highschool or even gradeschool. You know, the student government kids who would decide the important school political issues for the subservient student population.
How about the school newspaper kids? How many today are involved in the "objective" media the public is forcefed with?

"We have met the enemy and they are us."

geekWithA.45
February 11, 2006, 08:27 PM
While we plead to be left alone, others plead harder to be lead, for others to make choices for them that they can't or won't face. It's a mild form of the guru syndrome.

These folks are seduced by the dark side of the left, and become their useful idiots, cannon fodder, and voterbase.

The other disturbing factor is that all through our history, starting from the progressive era, and unto this very day, these coals have been nurtured in part by foriegn forces, operating in the shadows. It remains an open question as to whether that factor contributes greatly, or inneffectively to the situation.


At the end of the day, the freedom hating leaders who are the identified problem children, the Kennedys, Kerrys, Schumers, Clintons and Fienstiens are only the tip of the icedberg. The base of the iceberg are the many who keep voting for them, seeing nothing wrong with the false promises they bring to the table.

RealGun
February 11, 2006, 09:19 PM
I was perusing an un-named left-leaning political site, and noticed a thread that basically ranted about how people with pro-American bumper stickers were bigots. I have noticed this attitude from some Americans for many years now, and wonder where it comes from.

Note: I feel that this question applies to this forum as it is definitely "political" and many of the posters on that thread immediately wanted to outlaw said bumper stickers (First Amendmant violation). This question is not intended to start a liberal-bashing thread; I would like to know how and why a literal anti-American culture developed in this country.

I am not convinced that you have established your ground rules here. You refer to "left-leaning", "pro-American bumper stickers", and imply at the end that some people are "anti-American". Could we go through the evidence?

What does a "pro-American bumper sticker" say exactly? How do I get from there to "bigoted"? Why would anyone want to ban them? How could they possibly be a First Amendment violation?

You progress from "leftist-leaning" to "liberal-bashing". Some regard those groups as hardly synonymous.

There is an awful lot of code in here with no real focus. Could we start over with some real information, perhaps with fewer murky buzzwords?

KriegHund
February 11, 2006, 09:23 PM
The kids from the 60's and 70's are big boys now. Hippy parents had their way with them.

(This is a generalization. I now that there are very many non-socialistic people that were kids in the 60's and 70's)

Itll be interesting to see things 20 years from now.

anthillsinrome
February 11, 2006, 09:27 PM
I am not convinced that you have established your ground rules here. You refer to "left-leaning", "pro-American bumper stickers", and imply at the end that some people are "anti-American". Could we go through the evidence?

What does a "pro-American bumper sticker" say exactly? How do I get from there to "bigoted"? Why would anyone want to ban them? How could they possibly be a First Amendment violation?

You progress from "leftist-leaning" to "liberal-bashing". Some regard those groups as hardly synonymous.

There is an awful lot of code in here with no real focus. Could we start over with some real information, perhaps with fewer murky buzzwords?


I agree that some clarification would be helpful.

silliman89
February 11, 2006, 09:29 PM
I really don't understand it, but I think it has to do with some sort of collective guilt. The people who always seemed the most anti-American to me were always the first to talk about genocide of the Indians, slavery, exploitation of Mexicans in particular and hispanics in general, the arrogance of manifest destiny, civil rights, feminism, etc. Hell the way they see it, we're the kind of people who even invaded Canada in two separate wars to try and conquer them and take over their land.

To my mind, while I might oppose these sorts of things today :) , times were different back then. I don't feel guilty about the past. But I think that's the origins of it. That's why anti-Americanism is most prevalent on college campuses.

Oh, and also they’re really mad about the way the Cold War ended 15 years ago. They think they were lied to, because communism is so obviously kinder and gentler than free-market capitalism.

Standing Wolf
February 11, 2006, 09:33 PM
In two words: spoilt brats.

Guy B. Meredith
February 11, 2006, 10:12 PM
Uh, UC Berkeley?

I agree with the self indulgent spoiled brats who have not had to suffer real life. Maybe drug deprivation during financially lean times, but...

I found I had a very different attitude after 18 months of USAF duty outside 'the world'.

Fletchette
February 11, 2006, 11:15 PM
I agree that some clarification would be helpful.

OK. I deliberately did not mention the specific website, but I think it is fair to say that they are "left-leaning" as the members frequently describe themselves as such. The first letter of the website is "D"; I'll leave it at that.

The specific thread was posted by a member who went to the grocery store and saw a car in the parking lot that had a lot of pro-American bumper stickers on it. The poster described them and they were pretty tame: "support the troops", American Flag, Veterans of Foreign Wars, WWII vet etc. The poster seemed to think that these stickers were tantamount to racism.

The poster then went into the grocery store and saw the vet - an eighty something man with some sort of veteran baseball cap, and followed him to his car. The thread continued with comments like, "too bad he forgot what he was fighting for" or generalized comparisons to facism like "no swastika on his car?".

The only way I could interpret this attitude was that any pro-American sentiment was thought to be evil, akin to blatent racism. This befuddles me. Where did such animosity towards one's country come from? I can say that when the tables were turned a few years ago, when Klinton was in power, gunnies did not turn anti-American. To the contrary, most of the complaints were Constitutional in basis.

The people I described have an inate hatred of this country, and that will not change even if "their canidate" gets elected. Where did this hatred come from? I am not trying to bash liberals; I really want to understand what (if any) logic they use to support their opinions.

River Wraith
February 11, 2006, 11:39 PM
They aren't left leaning, they are communist traitors. I think they are just spoiled. They don't know how good they've got it or what it took to get it. They feel sorry for the rest of the world and think they can solve a problem created by socialist policies by throwing money at it...our tax money.

Camp David
February 12, 2006, 12:17 AM
Not sure why so much anti-Americanism presents itself!

ONE THING THAT IS IMPORTANT...

Whether or not you agree with Administration, or America in general, if you live here, you need to support Presdient, particularly now in times of war... for a period after 09/11/01 there was unity of spirit in America...same affter Pearl Harbor! Now it seems everyone is divisive... we have more to unite us than divide use!

We are all Americans first.

Fletchette
February 12, 2006, 12:32 AM
Further clarification to my question:

I have studied various political theories and understand their basis. For example, I understand the issues surrounding the start of Communism and understand the theory the supporters of Communism subscribe to. That said, I disagree with their core principals - that the individual should sacrifice his/her rights for the benefit of the state.

With Facism (more specifically, Nazis) I understand their core belief (Jews were sub-human and "tainted" the race of the Aryans) and again, I simply disagree.

With these enemies I understand their beliefs yet disagree with them. With the leftists that I referred to earlier, I do not have a clue as to why they believe what they believe. I am at a loss.

So, I am asking if anyone here understands their basic beliefs, even if they do not agree with them.

KriegHund
February 12, 2006, 01:11 AM
if you live here, you need to support Presdient,

Thats a foolish concept. Part of Liberty is about being able to NOT support the president and his/her actions if you so choose.

gulogulo1970
February 12, 2006, 01:20 AM
If is fueled by self loathing in my estimation. It trickles down into a hate of country as a secondary manifestation of that loathing.

GoRon
February 12, 2006, 01:54 AM
It is driven by a sense of powerlessness. "Their side" is out of power so they turn on those that have the power. The right and/or traditionalists see it as unpatriotic behavior.

When the left is in power the right experiences the same thing except it is manifested in the "the country is going to hell in a handbasket" rhetoric.

There was plenty of doom and gloom from the left when Reagan was president and more than enough of the "moral decline of the nation" during Clinton.

The libertarians are Zen about it all because they know they don't stand a chance. They like to jeer from the sideline and be morally superior to both sides.

Gordon Fink
February 12, 2006, 02:25 AM
What is the source of domestic anti-Americanism?

There isn’t one, because “domestic anti-Americanism” doesn’t actually exist for the most part. It is simply a useless epithet thrown out by people not bright enough to understand and debate those who disagree with them.

~G. Fink

bg
February 12, 2006, 02:57 AM
However on the outside of the U.S >
http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20060210/ts_csm/apopulists

antsi
February 12, 2006, 05:25 AM
There isn’t one, because “domestic anti-Americanism” doesn’t actually exist for the most part. It is simply a useless epithet thrown out by people not bright enough to understand and debate those who disagree with them.

~G. Fink

Unlike appeals along the lines of; "My brilliance and genius are just too difficult for peons like you to understand" which are so full of rich and meaningful content, and always add so much depth and insight to any debate.

Manedwolf
February 12, 2006, 06:51 AM
Not sure why so much anti-Americanism presents itself!

ONE THING THAT IS IMPORTANT...

Whether or not you agree with Administration, or America in general, if you live here, you need to support Presdient, particularly now in times of war... for a period after 09/11/01 there was unity of spirit in America...same affter Pearl Harbor! Now it seems everyone is divisive... we have more to unite us than divide use!


I don't know how many times I can say WRONG!!!! to that sentiment.

But this quote always helps:

"The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else."

Roosevelt in the Kansas City Star
May 7, 1918

Matthew748
February 12, 2006, 07:10 AM
In my opinion the majority of domestic anti-americanism comes from a couple of sources.

First you have the idle rich that really did not do anything to earn their station in life. Since their folks did all of the heavy lifting, they have no concept of hard work. I imagine that deep down they are motivated by a sense of guilt. They have everything while so many people have so little. However, they shirk responsibility and contradict themselves. Rather than give with a generous hand, they choose to hold on to their fortunes and blame the government which allows people like them to amass wealth.

I have a fair amount of interaction with these types of people at work. All it takes is one conversation and a review of their tax return to see what camp they fall into. Wealthy anti-american people whine about having to pay any tax, have total income in excess of $ 2 million, and give $ 1,000.00 or less to charities. Wealthy right-minded Americans pay their taxes with a grin and a shrug, have total income in excess of $ 2 million, and give several hundreds of thousands of dollars to charities.

Next you have a lot of people who have lost hope and just want things to get better. Since they have nothing, collectivism, socialism, and communism seems better to them than capitalism. I sympathize with people who are in this category through no fault of their own. There is a lot of bad luck in life, and some people seem to get more than their fair share. I do not feel bad for people who are in this category because they made it their mission in life to do as little as possible.

Lastly you have the herd who get brain washed by liberal universities. I have run into a lot of these people and never fail to get a good laugh at them. With few exceptions, they always seem to think they are special. They seem to believe that if a communist dictator took power they would be singled out and made part of the brain trust rather than being marched to a gulag.

Right or wrong, that is how I see it.

GunnySkox
February 12, 2006, 07:34 AM
I think it's less ranting about people who have "pro america" stuff on their cars because it's "pro-america" and a lot more about the association "'america #1' paraphrenalia == teh conservative == teh evil." People who develop the vapors over american flags and ribbons don't generally hate "America" so much as they hate you. If I were from Cuba, and got all up in a raging tizzy every time I saw a red star or some sickles and hammers or those godawful Che shirts everyone and their mom wears these days, you wouldn't think I had father issues or a deep-seated hatred of myself, you'd think I hated freaking communists. It's just a matter of what "they" associate with "us", not wang-dimension or gender confusion or what-have-you.

~GnSx
"Whatever, you gender-confused wacko." ~Friend AP, to me.

spartacus2002
February 12, 2006, 08:17 AM
I came across a quote in UC that is strikingly applicable to domestic anti-Americanism: "if reality doesn't match your theories, believe the reality and adjust your theories."

Unfortunately, the socialist Left has a theory that mankind SHOULD act a certain way, and if mankind doesn't, then mankind should be FORCED to act that way via the law. We call this "Positive Law."

America was founded more or less on the principle of Natural Law, which believes that mankind DOES act a certain way, and our laws should reflect the reality of human nature.

Example: Positive Law believes we can tax ourselves into prosperity, that giving $$ to the poor with no strings will help them rise out of poverty. Natural law understands that taxes stifle growth and commerce, and that a certain number of the poor will be happy to receive freee $$ without having to earn it and won't do anything to help themselves.

So, to answer your question, the problem stems from (1) a BELIEF in how people should act, rather than an UNDERSTANDING of how they should act, (2) a refusal to admit to facts that contravene their beliefs, and (3) a willingness to use the power of the state to force people to conduct themselves a certain way.

Manedwolf
February 12, 2006, 08:31 AM
I was perusing an un-named left-leaning political site, and noticed a thread that basically ranted about how people with pro-American bumper stickers were bigots.

And not bigots, but there's a bit of irony, there. Any of those yellow ribbon magnets, and most of those bumper stickers, look closely at them, and you'll see three little words somewhere.

MADE IN CHINA

I've always wondered just how buying and displaying something with a patriotic (or nationalistic) message made there is really pro-American...

RealGun
February 12, 2006, 08:41 AM
antiestablishmentarianism, antiestablishmentism

*the doctrine of opposition to the social and political establishment

American politics has raised this to an art form. It seems both contagious and associated with identifiable groups rather than a random individual charateristic. It is notable that those who are shrilly criticial of the establishment would like to be the establishment. On the other hand, actually being in charge and having to answer for being in charge would be the antiestablishmentarian's worst nightmare. It is more important to be against something than to stand for something. Original and practical ideas would not be a strength. I associate it with a lack of maturity or just enough education and information to be dangerous.

PCGS65
February 12, 2006, 09:33 AM
I don't know how many times I can say WRONG!!!! to that sentiment.

But this quote always helps:

"The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else."

Roosevelt in the Kansas City Star
May 7, 1918
Manedwolf, as you probably know it's all a matter of opinion. Camp Davids post is his opinion. Which many agree. Your reply to CDs opinion is your opinion. Which many agree. The Kansas City Stars quote of Roosevelt is Roosevelts opinion. I also have my own opinion. Are we all right,wrong or somewhere in between? That's a matter of opinion also.
It seems to me there's a lot of opinions around here. Which is a good thing, and that's my opinion.;) Have a good one.

Pilot
February 12, 2006, 10:04 AM
Some are just losers who won't try to be succsessful through hard work, so they whine about how bad America has become. Others feel they are "elite" an know better than the average person. It has become fashionable in the Northeast and left coast to be anti-American. See, we're smarter, more educated than you flyover types. We're also more humane and want to spend your money on social programs to keep us in power while we hire expensive tax lawyers and accoutants to pay the least amunt of taxes possible. See how smart we are? We also think the guns are barbaric, but we don't want to jail criminals becuase its not their fault but society's. Oh, but we do have armed private security guards to protect us.

:mad:

RealGun
February 12, 2006, 10:30 AM
Some are just losers who won't try to be succsessful through hard work, so they whine about how bad America has become. Others feel they are "elite" an know better than the average person. It has become fashionable in the Northeast and left coast to be anti-American. See, we're smarter, more educated than you flyover types. We're also more humane and want to spend your money on social programs to keep us in power while we hire expensive tax lawyers and accoutants to pay the least amunt of taxes possible. See how smart we are? We also think the guns are barbaric, but we don't want to jail criminals becuase its not their fault but society's. Oh, but we do have armed private security guards to protect us.

:mad:

Does anyone actually know one of these "evil" people, or is it just a boogey man thing?

VacuumJockey
February 12, 2006, 10:34 AM
As a Dane, I don't really feel qualified to get into this subject -- but David Horowitz's home page frontpagemag.com (http://frontpagemag.com/), and the companion site discoverthenetwork.com (http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/), are both dedicated to exposing the sources of anti-americanism.

TallPine
February 12, 2006, 10:36 AM
Manedwolf, as you probably know it's all a matter of opinion. Camp Davids post is his opinion. Which many agree. Your reply to CDs opinion is your opinion. Which many agree.
Unfortunately, it seems to me that CD's opinion is that those who disagree with the current administration in any way should not have an opinion, or at the very least should not express it. :(

At least that is my opinion about his opinion ;)

pharmer
February 12, 2006, 10:42 AM
Actually it comes from being pushed around as kids. Someone came along and beat the crap out of them and took their lunch money. Instead of fighting they went to the authority for solution. Became dependent ever since. Later, If a guy worked hard and made $10 million dollars, they expected him to give half to a knuckle draggin' fool ass that don't work; to be "fair". Now they spout hate for America cause its a "bully" or similar crap. Joe

Peet
February 12, 2006, 11:30 AM
The liberal elite know that they are philosopher-kings. They know that
the people simply cannot be trusted; that they are incapable of just
and fair self-government...
- Jeffrey R. Snyder in "A NATION OF COWARDS"


Does anyone actually know one of these "evil" people, or is it just a boogey man thing?Yup - they exist. Spend a few decades in academia and you'll want to puke from meeting so many of them.

P.

[YMMV if you're not on one of the coasts - mine was east coast.]

roo_ster
February 12, 2006, 11:38 AM
Art hit the psychological angle, which has some merit. A FUBAR'd psyche will alienate one form what currently IS, but it doesn't give them something to fight FOR.

What does that is the multitude of intellectual flatulentce that began with the Flatus Maximus, the father of totalitarian ideology, Jean-Jacques Rousseau.

What JJR & his progeny have in common is:
1. Lack of understanding of human nature.
2. Lack of real world experience with what they expound upon.
3. Ability to discount any data that happens to slip into their orbit that does not accord with their theory.
4. Elevate theory above actual humans and their welfare.
5. Morality is defined as that which furthers their theory/agenda.
6. Utopian in nature: believes in the perfectability of man & his society.

JJR, French Revolution, Marxism, Socialism, Fascism (subset of socialism, really), Environmentalism...

They all discounted religion and claimed the mantle of "scientific" and "reasoned." In actuality, they were merely the most jealous of religions and could brook no other gods before them.

roo_ster
February 12, 2006, 11:41 AM
There isn’t one, because “domestic anti-Americanism” doesn’t actually exist for the most part. It is simply a useless epithet thrown out by people not bright enough to understand and debate those who disagree with them.

~G. Fink
I think #3 applies, here.
3. Ability to discount any data that happens to slip into their orbit that does not accord with their theory.

RealGun
February 12, 2006, 11:44 AM
The liberal elite know that they are philosopher-kings.

Would "elite left" be a better term? Some would obect to "liberal" implying a pejorative.

silliman89
February 12, 2006, 01:00 PM
Originally Posted by RealGun
Does anyone actually know one of these "evil" people, or is it just a boogey man thing?

My brother married one that he met in college. In his defense, it's hard to meet a woman in college who isn't anti-American (at least in a small liberal arts college in New England anyway).

She was born in Canada, but her family moved to the states and became US citizens when she was 1 year old. She retained her Canadian citizenship though, so she wouldn't have to be associated with the ugly Americans she has lived amongst her whole life. She's about 50 now.

She's also poisoned the minds of my nephews, although my brother played his part in that I suppose. My nephews have never lived in Canada, but they were raised with dual citizenship and the oldest changed it to Canadian citizenship as soon as he was old enough (18).

They live in Boston now where they fit in with other like minded neighbors. She's a schoolteacher so she can indoctrinate as many young minds as possible.

silliman89
February 12, 2006, 01:11 PM
Pilot - #32
Some are just losers who won't try to be succsessful through hard work, so they whine about how bad America has become. Others feel they are "elite" an know better than the average person. It has become fashionable in the Northeast and left coast to be anti-American. See, we're smarter, more educated than you flyover types. We're also more humane and want to spend your money on social programs to keep us in power while we hire expensive tax lawyers and accoutants to pay the least amunt of taxes possible. See how smart we are? We also think the guns are barbaric, but we don't want to jail criminals becuase its not their fault but society's. Oh, but we do have armed private security guards to protect us.

+1

They mostly just dismiss the rest of the country, the "flyover types", as being uneducated and ignorant. If only everyone had the advantage of the right-thinking education they had, then we'd all agree with their obviously superior position. (Except for a few malcontents such as myself, who are clearly just mentally disturbed.)

Fletchette
February 12, 2006, 01:56 PM
There isn’t one, because “domestic anti-Americanism” doesn’t actually exist for the most part. It is simply a useless epithet thrown out by people not bright enough to understand and debate those who disagree with them.

~G. Fink

Oh come on Gordon, usually you have much more insightful opinions.

I am not talking about those who thoughtfully debate politics based on principal, and therefore oppose Bush et al for current policies, I am talking about anti-Americanism. Read my description more carefully and you will realize what I am talking about. (Note that I added further clarification to my original question on subsequent posts).

Fletchette
February 12, 2006, 02:07 PM
In my opinion the majority of domestic anti-americanism comes from a couple of sources.

First you have the idle rich that really did not do anything to earn their station in life. Since their folks did all of the heavy lifting, they have no concept of hard work. I imagine that deep down they are motivated by a sense of guilt. They have everything while so many people have so little. However, they shirk responsibility and contradict themselves. Rather than give with a generous hand, they choose to hold on to their fortunes and blame the government which allows people like them to amass wealth.

...

Next you have a lot of people who have lost hope and just want things to get better. Since they have nothing, collectivism, socialism, and communism seems better to them than capitalism. I sympathize with people who are in this category through no fault of their own. There is a lot of bad luck in life, and some people seem to get more than their fair share. I do not feel bad for people who are in this category because they made it their mission in life to do as little as possible.

Lastly you have the herd who get brain washed by liberal universities. I have run into a lot of these people and never fail to get a good laugh at them. With few exceptions, they always seem to think they are special. They seem to believe that if a communist dictator took power they would be singled out and made part of the brain trust rather than being marched to a gulag.

Right or wrong, that is how I see it.

I agree in part. The first type seems to explain the George Soros' of the world. Although admittendly, he did not inherit his wealth but he may feel guilty deep down inside due to how he amassed his wealth.

As for the second type, I would understand if we were talking about Third World despiration. Those who are starving under some klepto-dictatorship will see Communism as a viable alternative. However, in America even the poor are fat. This type of despiration simply does not apply.

The third type you listed seems to be the most perplexing. These are the one's with instinctive hatred of America and contradict themselves in order to maintain this hatred. As far as I can see, they have no reason to hate America - they are wealthy, free (as they want to be) and pampered. All I can think of is that this group somehow identifies America as evil simply on a basis of faith. If you counter their opinion, their first response is almost always "you are an uneducated bigot".

Fletchette
February 12, 2006, 02:11 PM
...
So, to answer your question, the problem stems from (1) a BELIEF in how people should act, rather than an UNDERSTANDING of how they should act, (2) a refusal to admit to facts that contravene their beliefs, and (3) a willingness to use the power of the state to force people to conduct themselves a certain way.

This also makes a certain amount of sense. But I do not understand how they get their beliefs as to how people SHOULD act. I guess this explaination explains the "how they act", but not entirely the "why they act".

Fletchette
February 12, 2006, 02:15 PM
Does anyone actually know one of these "evil" people, or is it just a boogey man thing?

Yes. I used to work in a university lab, and there were quite a few of them. I tried in vain to understand their opinions, but I simply couldn't - there were too many contradictions. If they were bonafide Communists I could actually understand their opinion yet disagree with their core beliefs. The modern anti-American seems to have no "core beliefs" at all, just a collection of political stances based on individual issues.

Fletchette
February 12, 2006, 02:22 PM
...
What JJR & his progeny have in common is:
1. Lack of understanding of human nature.
2. Lack of real world experience with what they expound upon.
3. Ability to discount any data that happens to slip into their orbit that does not accord with their theory.
4. Elevate theory above actual humans and their welfare.
5. Morality is defined as that which furthers their theory/agenda.
6. Utopian in nature: believes in the perfectability of man & his society.

JJR, French Revolution, Marxism, Socialism, Fascism (subset of socialism, really), Environmentalism...

They all discounted religion and claimed the mantle of "scientific" and "reasoned." In actuality, they were merely the most jealous of religions and could brook no other gods before them.

I'll agree in part; but at least the previous political theories had some sort of logic (if only based on false premises). Also, even non-religious types such as myself can recognize the reality of the Nature of Man and not attempt to make a perfect "utopian" society.

Fletchette
February 12, 2006, 02:26 PM
My brother married one that he met in college. In his defense, it's hard to meet a woman in college who isn't anti-American (at least in a small liberal arts college in New England anyway).

She was born in Canada, but her family moved to the states and became US citizens when she was 1 year old. She retained her Canadian citizenship though, so she wouldn't have to be associated with the ugly Americans she has lived amongst her whole life. She's about 50 now.

She's also poisoned the minds of my nephews, although my brother played his part in that I suppose. My nephews have never lived in Canada, but they were raised with dual citizenship and the oldest changed it to Canadian citizenship as soon as he was old enough (18).

They live in Boston now where they fit in with other like minded neighbors. She's a schoolteacher so she can indoctrinate as many young minds as possible.

I grew up in Boston. The place is filled with this type of person. Even as a kid I could not understand why so many people simply hated the country they were choosing to live in and benefitting from. As for your brother's wife, have you ever asked her why she refuses to get American citizenship? Does she have a specific answer of is it just "feeling"?

jlbraun
February 12, 2006, 02:27 PM
I would just like to make sure that there is a distinction drawn between those who wish for the outright downfall of the USA as a country (such as the Communist Party of America) - versus those that simply wish that we did not have the current administration and its policies (see: Libertarians/Constitutionalist Liberals). THe former is anti-American in the truest sense, while I would argue that the latter are true Americans.

I suspect that leftists are guilty of conflating those who have a "support our troops" ribbon with those with a "W 2004" sticker and wishing ill will towards both. In this case, I am very much for the people in the former group while being set against those in the latter group.

Just asking for a point of order.

Art Eatman
February 12, 2006, 02:34 PM
Another disagreement, RealGun; yes, I've met quite a few. Not many here in Terlingua, but a fair number back in Austintatious.

Gordon, I've known a fair number of people through the years who so despised capitalism and so loved socialism that the desire for change was paramount. No US Government action of whatever sort met with their approval. The bottom line of their belief was that the nation should be first destroyed (method never clear) and then rebuilt on their model. This was commonplace in Berzerkley and the UT campus during the Vietnam era. It's less obvious now, but it is implicit in much of the present complaining.

Art

Common Tater
February 12, 2006, 03:02 PM
.......Part of Liberty is about being able to NOT support the president and his/her actions if you so choose.

Exactly! If it is anti-American to not support the Guy In Charge, then the Framers need to go to the top of the list.

Coronach
February 12, 2006, 03:15 PM
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