[jlbraun]

Or, more precisely, do you notify a homeowner that you don't know well that you're bringing a CCW to their dinner party? I'm anticipating stopping all alcohol consumption when I get a CHL, so that's not an issue. I'm more concerned about legality and propriety. I'm in Colorado.

Opinions?

[Infidel]

Notify? I wouldn't. Concealed is concealed.

However, I would use my best judgement and if I knew, or even thought, that the host would disapprove, I would not carry in their home.

[Bad Words]

No, you don't need to share with everyone that you're carrying simply because you're on their property. Unless you're specifically told that they wish to have a gun free house, I wouldn't give it a second thought.

[kaferhaus]

1st I'd never allow anyone to bring a firearm into my house unless they were INVITED WITH THE FIREARM.

I think your question is absurd.

Bringing a concealed weapon into someones home without their prior consent is begging to be shot or humiliated in front of everyone else there.

I've had a CWP for over 30yrs and I've never even considered carrying a gun into someone else's home.

WHY would you even consider such an action? Are you in fear of your life at this person's home? If so, why the hell are you going?

[Zundfolge]

I'm more concerned about legality and propriety. I'm in Colorado.

Legally you don't have to get permission to CCW in private homes ... if its discovered and you're asked to leave you're guilty of trespassing if you refuse to leave ... thats it. Unless the host of the party has metal detectors set up.

If you think they would object than maybe you should consider hanging out with a better class of people :p

As for alcohol, Colorado is not a "Zero Tolerance" state ... you can CCW and consume alcohol as long as you don't carry "under the influence" (so if you can't stop after a drink or two with dinner, then by all means don't drink at all).

Propriety? Concealed means concealed and telling a host you plan on CCWing at their party is less proper than keeping your mouth closed and piece covered (you wouldn't discuss what kind of underwear you are going to wear to this dinner party would you? Unless its one of "those kind of parties" ;) )

[Hot brass]

I would keep my mouth shut.

[stevelyn]

It doesn't need to be advertised. Keep it concealed and your mouth shut.

[carebear]

Under Alaska's new "Vermont carry" law:

HB 102, signed by the Governor on June 11, 2003 changes Alaska Statute 11.61.220 to allow anyone 21 or older, other than convicted felons, who may legally carry a firearm to also carry it concealed without having to obtain a special permit. The possession of a firearm at courthouses, school yards, bars and domestic violence shelters will continue to be prohibited. Alaskans may still obtain a concealed carry permit if they want reciprocity with other states or want to continue to be exempt from background checks when purchasing firearms.

A person 21 or older may be charged with carrying a concealed deadly weapon under AS 11.61.220 if s/he

a) fails to immediately inform a peace officer that s/he is carrying a concealed handgun

b)fails to allow the officer to secure the weapon or fails to secure the weapon at the direction of the peace officer, or

c)carries the weapon concealed within another person’s residence, unless s/he has first obtained the express permission of an adult residing there, whether or not the person has a concealed handgun permit.

[kaferhaus]

Well there's no shortage of guys without common sense on this board.

I don't give a damn if your CCW laws say it's okay or not... it's absolutely a stupid idea to carry a firearm into someone's home without first obtaining their permission..

I can almost guarantee that if you ask, you'll be told to keep your ass home.

If I caught someone in my home with a concealed weapon, they'd be explaining to the lord that it was legal.

Guaranteed there's no jury in the land that'd convict me for shooting your ass for bringing a loaded concealed weapon to a "dinner party" at my home.... and the fact that you did this without my knowledge will be enough for me to assume you intended to harm someone in my home.

And consuming ANY alcohol while carrying is also a stupid idea... I can think of probably a hundred situations that you'd wish you'd never had a single drink if you ever had to use that weapon.

And for some reason I thought most guys with CCWs were like me "responsible" and courteous..

Do any of you guys really think it's 'courteous" to your host to bring a loaded firearm onto their property... do you???

A person invites you into their home as a guest..... and you guys think it's ok to pack your piece....

jeez, no wonder the anti's are claiming we're all a bunch of "cowboy idiots" they've been reading your posts!!

[Stevie-Ray]

1st I'd never allow anyone to bring a firearm into my house unless they were INVITED WITH THE FIREARM.
"And, oh by the way, please do bring your gun.":rolleyes: And do you frisk everybody that enters your house?
I think your question is absurd.Many of these answers prove that the question is definitely NOT absurd.
Bringing a concealed weapon into someones home without their prior consent is begging to be shot or humiliated in front of everyone else there.Spoken like somebody that doesn't get much company.
I've had a CWP for over 30yrs and I've never even considered carrying a gun into someone else's home.Bully for you! Same can't be said about many of us.
WHY would you even consider such an action? Are you in fear of your life at this person's home? If so, why the hell are you going?Not speaking for him, but, I like carrying every time I get into my truck for ANY reason. Then I don't relish the idea of packing it away in a locked box in the truck and take the chance of it getting stolen along with the truck. I guess I simply don't live in the Utopia you seem to. Though I will admit, the people I know that I visit have no problem with it. Infidel said it best.

[Jack T.]

StevieRay may be from Michigan, but we sure agree on this subject!

Mark me down as another "cowboy idiot"

[f4t9r]

Notify? I wouldn't. Concealed is concealed.

However, I would use my best judgement and if I knew, or even thought, that the host would disapprove, I would not carry in their home.

I agree with this , I think one needs to respect another person's home. So I either would not carry if I thought they would disapprove or not go. I personally would not invite someone I didnt know well enough.

[carebear]

I would assume that most anyone I would invite to my home for a dinner party (or be invited by) would be something of a friend. I usually have gotten around to letting my friends know I carry and I ask them if they have a problem with me carrying in their houses. Many carry themselves so it isn't that big of a deal.

I can't imagine feeling threatened by the idea of a dinner guest carrying and if they do it everywhere else, it can't rationally be viewed as an insult.

If I didn't trust them not to attack me, I probably wouldn't have invited them to a meal that involves knives. :rolleyes:

[berettaman]

Dissarming is absurd.Keep it concealed and your mouth shut or don't accept the invitation to the party.As some have said if they point it out and humiliate you? Thats the tell tale sign of a moron and thats the last place you want to be,armed or not.

[AJ Dual]

1st I'd never allow anyone to bring a firearm into my house unless they were INVITED WITH THE FIREARM.

I think your question is absurd.

Bringing a concealed weapon into someones home without their prior consent is begging to be shot or humiliated in front of everyone else there.

I've had a CWP for over 30yrs and I've never even considered carrying a gun into someone else's home.

WHY would you even consider such an action? Are you in fear of your life at this person's home? If so, why the hell are you going?

I can respect that opinion. As a self-contained opinion, it makes sense. The property rights and rules of the homeowner have lots of sway in the right-thinking world.

However, I can't say it's absolute either.

Do I have any business knowing what's under my guest's clothes that's not a firearm? Where is the line drawn? Does their person and property cease being their person and property because they've willingly set foot on mine? Can I give everyone a cavity search?

I admit these are extreme examples, but they prove the point. There is a line where items that are secure, concealed, and unacknoledged can't possibly be of any true harm to myself, should my guests have them on their person.

It's arguable that an unacknoledged firearm that is safe, secure, and 100% concealed from detection the entire time it's on his person in someone else's home could fall into that category. If the host never knows, and the gun was responsibly carried, what is the true harm?

What if I were a conservative Christian Scientist who eschews all medical assistance & drugs, and one of my guests is wearing an insulin pump, or a nitroglycerine heart patch?

Perhaps I'm Jewish or Muslim, and one of my gentile guests has a lunch containing pork still working it's way through his bowels, and he enters my home?

OTOH, things like a jury-rigged and unstable explosive, a vial of gaseous poison, or a paper bag full of hornets is another matter. Those all have great potential to force themselves on the external environment outside their person. However, we all know that quality firearms properly holstered have zero chance of "going off". Unlike the media, we know that guns only "go off" when placed in fire, or when they're being manipulated by someone who is careless.

While everyone has a right to what and who enters their private property, I can't also help but feel that people are little wandering islands of private property too. If something I may find objectionable enters my home, but it's secure on my guest's person, and has little or no risk of forcing itself on the external environment, I'm not sure it's my business.

The very reason we carry is that we don't know when or where we may need it. If we did, it would be easier to just avoid those places and times.

jlbraun still needs to travel to the party, and travel home, what about then? While the odds are against it, can the host garuantee that there won't be a home invasion robbery during the party? (It has happened, and the results were horrific. They were eventualy all killed, but before, they were held for days and forced to "perform" on each other for the invaders...)

It's a complex issue, and one with many legitamate opinions. You ultimately need to make your own decision as to what is acceptable.

- Ask the host.

- Don't carry.

- Carry on the way there and back, and keep it locked in your car.

- Carry and tell no one, if you can be very sure you won't be "made", and you know how to carry securely and safely.

- Compromise: Some people here carry a mousegun for when they're "unarmed". :)

Frankly, this is one of those sticky issues where you can go around forever, and both sides (and in between) have valid points and arguments. Your safety and your host's rights balance out pretty evenly. Do whatever is discreet and safe. If that means you don't carry, then don't carry. If that mean's you can carry, carry.

It's up to you.

[JShirley]

Bringing a concealed weapon into someones home without their prior consent is begging to be shot or humiliated in front of everyone else there.

Which part of concealed do you not understand?

If I caught someone in my home with a concealed weapon, they'd be explaining to the lord that it was legal.


So, let's sum up your attitudes quickly:
1) You are willing to invite people you don't trust, and
2) If given the opportunity, and being reasonably certain of minimal legal fuss, you are perfectly willing to kill any unoffensive person that you evidently thought enough of to invite for dinner.

no wonder the anti's are claiming we're all a bunch of "cowboy idiots"

Yes, it's pretty obvious why they think that of some.

John

[Kodiaz]

I think it would be rude to take a gun to someone's house without their permission. My neighbor across the street is a gunnie too. When I got my Kimber I put it in the car walked across the street told him I finally got it and then I went to my car brought it to his house and showed him. I wouldn't bring a gun to another person's house unless they knew about it. It's called courtesy.


Now telling someone they're stupid(or just saying so) because they are asking is rude. I guess living in the south for 6 years is starting to get to me. In a couple more years I may even become a decent human being.

Call the guy and ask if he's a gunnie and he says sure. Then say something like "I didn't think it would be proper for me just to show up at your home with my firearm" or something along those lines. If they say no and this is a wife event then stow it in the car if it's a good area. If this isn't a big deal event then just don't go.


Well that's my .02

[HerrWolfe]

Gee, kill someone because he had a legal gun on his person. Better be carefull if you are not real good shot; it might be self defense and you loose. Maybe someone should have his permit revoked if that is all that life is worth. By all means, carry your weapon, or even two, and we'll step outside and touch off a few into the targets I always have set up by the woods.

[JShirley]

I'd like to believe I follow a common sense approach. I don't recall ever asking a store owner how he felt about my packing a firearm in his premises; it was legal, and I kept it concealed, per the law.

As for dinner invitations, I certainly wouldn't be waving my firearm around, but then, I don't do that anyway.

Some of the things anonymous people claim are kinda funny, when they're not sad or stupid. :)

On the other hand, if I were staying in someone else's house, where there was any chance that firearm might not be under my personal control 24/7, I would indeed broach the subject, unless I kept the firearm locked in my vehicle.

John

[sm]

Law "says" one is supposed to here.

Well I've been in honkey-tonks where folks were more civil, polite and respectful, than "dinner parties" of kinfolks or co-workers.

I fired kinfolks, friends, and quit participating in some things and going certain places... and
... I do not have to be around folks too stupid to take measures for their own safey, and I'll be damned if I am going to be around folks that would deny me MY inalienable rights.

Folks have to get from point A to point B.

BGs know "groups of persons" offer great opportunies, whether it be the vehicles parked themselves, or the persons inside.

BGs watch for Weddings, Funerals as opportunities of Prey. Folks are distracted by emotions inside, residences are left unattended...

"Gatherings" may mean jewelry, and other enticements...depends on "dinner party".

A Responsible Firearm owner WILL be responsible in having a designated driver in a group, not be intoxicated with a firearm, not be dis-armed [no "weapon"] and for damn sure not intentionally go somewhere where trouble is, where trouble may show up en-route /returning and where someone is likely to try and "control" them or "change" their perspectives on matters such as CCW.

Simple, do not invite me , I got better things to do than RSVP anyway.

Folks I hang with, just part of our Moral Law, not "if" you are packing ...folks may wonder "how many?"

Just don't call me or "us" with bad news, whining about something that happened.

Yeah this especially applies to some folks supposedly "into" guns. Worse than folks that have quit smoking...

I'll go outside to smoke, I am respectful and courteous. I will wipe my feet before I enter...

Concealed is concealed and none of anyone's damn business but mine.


Steve

[Hot brass]

I only invite friends and family over to my home. Carry if you want to. I know who has guns and who don`t. If alcohol is to be served, ALL friends and family know I don`t mix guns and boose. And you won`t either at my home.

Me, I don`t carry 24/7, if I were invited to a dinner party and did not know the party hosts I would not carry. If there were any doubts about the people, place, environment I would not go. I don`t need the headaches of LEO`s wanting to know what happened, why and when if I can avoid it.

A bottle of red wine, a couple of porterhouses, salad , cigar, and my wife, I am happy. Hell I think I can cook as good or better than most :rolleyes: . Maybe thats why I don`t do much takeout. I`m going to lite the smoker. :cool:

[kaferhaus]

Which part of concealed do you not understand?

So, let's sum up your attitudes quickly:
1) You are willing to invite people you don't trust, and
2) If given the opportunity, and being reasonably certain of minimal legal fuss, you are perfectly willing to kill any unoffensive person that you evidently thought enough of to invite for dinner.

John

Answer to 1: How many times have you read about a killer.... "he seemed so nice", "couldn't imagine him hurting anyone", "he was our neighbor for years, never caused a bit of trouble"...

Answer to 2: If you're in my home with a weapon I didn't know about, I'll be forced to assume that I didn't know you at all, that you've somehow "fooled me" and you've no business with a weapon in my home unless you're planing to use it to harm either my family or my guests.

Sorry guys, no arguement you can possibly come up with justifies bringing a concealed weapon into some else's home without their prior consent.

In my opinion anyone who thinks this is a courteous thing to do and should be "ok".... I'd hate to think of what other ideas are running around in your heads as to what appropriate behaviour is.

I'm done with the argument, you cowboys can nuzzle up to each other and play big pistol packer macho all you want.

Maybe I should point out to your legislators that they've left a huge loophole in the CCW laws if they indeed allow you to carry into a residence without the owners permission...

Alaska's law is a good one, as is our's.... if you're found packing on private property without consent, up to a year in jail, permanent revocation of your CCW and loss of your 2nd amendment rights.... no gun ownership ever.

[Zundfolge]

If I caught someone in my home with a concealed weapon, they'd be explaining to the lord that it was legal.

Wow! ... just Wow!

So you're telling me that you would feel justified in murdering someone because they carried a gun into your house? Not threatened you, not "brandished" the firearm, just a licensed individual with a piece under their clothes?

Answer to 2: If you're in my home with a weapon I didn't know about, I'll be forced to assume that I didn't know you at all, that you've somehow "fooled me" and you've no business with a weapon in my home unless you're planing to use it to harm either my family or my guests.
Using your logic we should just ban CCW all together because the same thing can be said for the guy behind you in line at Walmart.

Sorry guys, no arguement you can possibly come up with justifies bringing a concealed weapon into some else's home without their prior consent.

I got one: ITS NONE OF YOUR EFFING BUSINESS WHAT'S UNDER MY CLOTHES!

Of course I guess you'd be just as justified in murdering someone for wearing bikini briefs too as they are obviously a sexual predator :rolleyes:



Now if you've made it clear BEFORE your guests arrival that guns are not welcome, or if you put a sign up on the front door of your house saying "no guns allowed" thats fine ... you have every right to do that and I would expect you to ask anyone who violated your policy to leave (and I would respect your wishes by not darkening your door with my presence in the first place) ... but killing someone because of some imagined breach of etiquette? Its no wonder there are people out there who want us all disarmed.

[MachIVshooter]

I'd like to believe I follow a common sense approach. I don't recall ever asking a store owner how he felt about my packing a firearm in his premises; it was legal, and I kept it concealed, per the law.



Exactly.


If I caught someone in my home with a concealed weapon, they'd be explaining to the lord that it was legal.

And what do you suppose the courts will do to you when they find that your "armed invader" was a non-violent and invited guest in your home? I can tell you it'll be the last dinner party you throw for quite some time.

Unless an individual has a sign posted or verbally conveys to me that his/her home is a gun-free zone, I'll be packing. If I am not allowed to carry, I'll send myself packing elsewhere. The only time I disarm is when I am going somewhere that it is prohibited by law, such as a court house (which is also the DMV here). As for private businesses that prohibit CCW, they simply do not get my money and I recommend to anyone I know that they not patronize that business.

[sm]

Coats and purses go into spare bedroom atop the bed.
Leaves the Coat Racks free for Long-Guns with slings. :)

--

You might suspect a THR Bunch out to eat - Folks all sitting with backs to wall, exits near / in sight.
Just easier for food to be served that way is all...;)

--

I've been to many "dinner parties". Some low key, some fancy affairs. In another life, folks liked what many of us had access to. We took precautions. Get a "gathering" of folks like this - one does not take risks. Be it at a Private Home, Private Dining area, or Office Setting.

I / We know all too well about getting to and fro, and attending some "functions".

[JShirley]

who thinks this is a courteous thing to

Nothing to do with courtesy, friend. More of a "none of your damn business" thing.

you cowboys can nuzzle up to each other and play big pistol packer macho

Kinda like our sexual preferences. Also none of your damn business, and I really don't want to hear your fantasies, but thanks.

Maybe I should point out to your legislators that they've left a huge loophole in the CCW laws if they indeed allow you to carry into a residence without the owners permission...


Yawn. Nice to see your "live and let live" elitist policy at work when it comes to incremental restrictions on our rights, though. Nothing like true colors.

Since I'm originally from Mobile, I'm there pretty often. And I carry. Which part of the code lists the prohibition you mention? Definitely not Section 13A-11-59 (http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/13A-11-59.htm).

John

[jlbraun]

These really are an excellent set of responses. Thank you all! In the interest of keeping the discussion going, it's apparent that there are different schools of thought here:


Carry at all times
Use judgement to figure out whether your hosts would approve or not
Carry only when you feel you would be in danger
Ask your host
Survey the entire party when you get there and get waivers and disclaimers from all ("I, the undersigned, as of this date and time, am not offended, threatened, or otherwise intimidated by X carrying a concealed weapon in my presence...")


I'm in the camp of #2, leaning towards #1.
Kaferhaus:

Answer to 1: How many times have you read about a killer.... "he seemed so nice", "couldn't imagine him hurting anyone", "he was our neighbor for years, never caused a bit of trouble"...


"...and he invited all of those people over to his house for dinner, and KILLED THEM ALL!"

Just pointing out that your reasoning goes both ways.

[kaferhaus]

In Alabama, you bet pal, you'd be a dead man. Under no circumstances can you bring a concealed weapon into someone's home without their permission.

It'd be like wearing a sign saying "shoot me, I'm an idiot"

I got one: ITS NONE OF YOUR EFFING BUSINESS WHAT'S UNDER MY CLOTHES!

In MY home anything you do is MY business.... you guys are unbelievable.... you go to someone else's home and just do as you please??

Talk about arrogance...

The question that started this thread answered itself..... if you have to ask such a question.... shouldn't it be obvious that maybe it's not a polite or courteous thing to do!

I'm glad we'll never need to worry about inviting each other to dinner.... I'd like to think I have better taste in who I'd invite.

[Zundfolge]

In MY home anything you do is MY business.... you guys are unbelievable.... you go to someone else's home and just do as you please??
If you let your wishes be known at the time of the invitation (or at least before your guests arrive) than you can demand that everyone wear white boxers if you want ... but once you start threatening to kill people I think it is YOU who's unbelievable, arrogant and dangerous.

[Infidel]

Unless an individual has a sign posted or verbally conveys to me that his/her home is a gun-free zone, I'll be packing.
Hey, all you guys (except one) are welcome to come to dinner at my house anytime. Keep it concealed. We might have to call out for burgers or pizza, 'cause I'm not much of a cook. Some of us might have to eat off the coffee table or the desk, 'cause I don't have any large dinner tables. But all of you (except one) and your concealed guns are welcome any time.

[JShirley]

kaferhaus,

Thank you, I'll take that as a compliment.

Now, please post proof of the AL law you mention.

Carry only when you feel you would be in danger

There's only one problem there: most of us just plain wouldn't go anywhere we could help, if we *believed* we were in danger. Handguns are reactionary weapons, for when you aren't expecting a threat.

"...and he invited all of those people over to his house for dinner, and KILLED THEM ALL!"

Just pointing out that your reasoning goes both ways.

Heh. Good point. It's also true that there are some folks that wouldn't attend a function at another's house, if they knew guns were in the home. Sure, I understand that would be about 1 in 3 of American households, but there are some fruit loops out there. Is one then needful of explaining when inviting "-oh, and by the way, I'm a REAL FREE AMERICAN, I own firearms, if that's a concern, I understand." :rolleyes:

John

[Zundfolge]

Maybe I'm just being culturaly insensative ... maybe folks in Alabama are just more suspicious of their friends and neighbors ... maybe its a more dangerous place to live.

But out here in Colorado we generally trust our friends and neighbors a little more. I'm sure we'll be called fools for doing so.

I wouldn't invite anyone into my home that I wouldn't trust with a gun in their pants.

[kaferhaus]

.

Since I'm originally from Mobile, I'm there pretty often. And I carry. Which part of the code lists the prohibition you mention? Definitely not Section 13A-11-59 (http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/13A-11-59.htm).

John

It's under the armed trespass law. If you enter onto someone's property armed without the knowledge of the property owner you're guilty of "armed trespass" whether or not you had permission to be on the property yourself.

To make it simple for you.... I can give you permission to enter upon my property, but you must have specific permission to enter my property armed. Otherwise it's armed trespassing which is a felony.

The CCW law allows you to carry on most public property and public places, it does not allow you to carry on PRIVATE PROPERTY.

You cannot be granted any right by statute to do anything on private property, including wearing "bikini underware" if I don't want you doing in on my property.

you guys are clueless.... you still don't get it.....

With the arguements you guys are using, I should have the right if invited to your house to ???? on the carpet in front of your guest.... or maybe bring a kilo or two of coke.....

[jlbraun]

In Alabama, you bet pal, you'd be a dead man. Under no circumstances can you bring a concealed weapon into someone's home without their permission.

It'd be like wearing a sign saying "shoot me, I'm an idiot"



In MY home anything you do is MY business.... you guys are unbelievable.... you go to someone else's home and just do as you please??

Talk about arrogance...

The question that started this thread answered itself..... if you have to ask such a question.... shouldn't it be obvious that maybe it's not a polite or courteous thing to do!

I'm glad we'll never need to worry about inviting each other to dinner.... I'd like to think I have better taste in who I'd invite.

I disagree with the "if you have to ask the question...", because it's a thought-terminating cliche or non sequitur. I prefer to use reason. If I determine a question is irrelevant now, I will still hold it in reserve to revisit at a later time.

That said, I believe in courteous action towards those that invite me into their home, but I also don't want to give up the responsibility I have to myself for my own safety.

[sm]

I gotta met JShirley,

Word is...he comes in right handy at dinner parties...

If you need a "sharp knife", "bigger knife", or "who wants to carve the..."
Yep, John comes in handy...
:evil:

Steve

[The Real Hawkeye]

Or, more precisely, do you notify a homeowner that you don't know well that you're bringing a CCW to their dinner party? I'm anticipating stopping all alcohol consumption when I get a CHL, so that's not an issue. I'm more concerned about legality and propriety. I'm in Colorado.

Opinions?Concealed means concealed.

[Zundfolge]

So here's a conundrum for some of you legal beagles out there:

What do you do if both of the following statements are true?

1) Bringing a concealed firearm onto someone else's private property without express permission is a crime.

2) Telling anyone you are carrying a concealed firearm is a crime.


I don't know if this is the case in Alabama, but I do know that in many states #2 is true.

[Mainsail]

Well there's no shortage of guys without common sense on this board.

If I caught someone in my home with a concealed weapon, they'd be explaining to the lord that it was legal.

jeez, no wonder the anti's are claiming we're all a bunch of "cowboy idiots" they've been reading your posts!!

You'd shoot another human being for legal CCW even though they made no threat and you weren't in fear of your life?

You're right about two things, no shortage and no wonder...

[jlbraun]

So here's a conundrum for some of you legal beagles out there:

What do you do if both of the following statements are true?

1) Bringing a concealed firearm onto someone else's private property without express permission is a crime.

2) Telling anyone you are carrying a concealed firearm is a crime.


I don't know if this is the case in Alabama, but I do know that in many states #2 is true.

That's the exact kind of thing that I was hoping to discover when I asked the question originally.

[The Real Hawkeye]

1st I'd never allow anyone to bring a firearm into my house unless they were INVITED WITH THE FIREARM.

I think your question is absurd.

Bringing a concealed weapon into someones home without their prior consent is begging to be shot or humiliated in front of everyone else there.

I've had a CWP for over 30yrs and I've never even considered carrying a gun into someone else's home.

WHY would you even consider such an action? Are you in fear of your life at this person's home? If so, why the hell are you going?Forgive me, but you sound like a raving lunatic. If you invited the man, you invited him and whatever accouterments he ordinarily has on his person. What about his pocket knife? Will you shoot him if you somehow catch the print in his pants? If you are a gun phobic, or a paranoid, you have the choice of 1) not inviting anyone into your home or 2) announcing before hand which ordinary items often carried by men that you do not allow in the home. Short of that, you have no grounds whatsoever to behave as though your house has been somehow violated because someone is carrying concealed. I remember many dinner parties when I was a kid that my parents threw, and on quite a few occasions the conversation of guns would come up, and someone would mention the gun they were carrying, and might even take it out, unload it and pass it around to whomever was interested. This did not result in the shootout at OK Corral.

[kaferhaus]

SECTION 23‑31‑225. Carrying concealed weapons into residences or dwellings.

No person who holds a permit issued pursuant to Article 4, Chapter 31, Title 23 may carry a concealable weapon into the residence or dwelling place of another person without the express permission of the owner or person in legal control or possession, as appropriate. A person who violates this provision is guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, must be fined not less than one thousand dollars or imprisoned for not more than one year, or both, at the discretion of the court and have his permit revoked for five years

Part of the trespass law that applies to "holders of CCW permits"

[Zundfolge]

SECTION 23‑31‑225. Carrying concealed weapons into residences or dwellings.

No person who holds a permit issued pursuant to Article 4, Chapter 31, Title 23 may carry a concealable weapon into the residence or dwelling place of another person without the express permission of the owner or person in legal control or possession, as appropriate. A person who violates this provision is guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, must be fined not less than one thousand dollars or imprisoned for not more than one year, or both, at the discretion of the court and have his permit revoked for five years
Part of the trespass law that applies to "holders of CCW permits"
and
If I caught someone in my home with a concealed weapon, they'd be explaining to the lord that it was legal.

So Alabama law allows for use of deadly force to prevent a non-violent misdemeanor?

[jlbraun]

Part of the trespass law that applies to "holders of CCW permits"...A person who violates this provision is guilty of a misdemeanor

Otherwise it's armed trespassing which is a felony.

Which is it, now? I'm confused. :rolleyes:

[kaferhaus]

You'd shoot another human being for legal CCW even though they made no threat and you weren't in fear of your life?



It's not legal to enter a residense "packing" without the owners prior consent.

Not here and not in a lot of other states either.

I think some guys don't read ALL the laws.... some states CCW laws may be a bit vague between "private property (which they're usually referring to as a business open to the public, not a residence) however their trespass laws or other laws usually address it specifically. CCW or not, entering someones home armed without their permission is usually a crime in most states.

and it's plain stupid to do. if you're that damned scared, stay home.

[jlbraun]

It's not legal to enter a residense "packing" without the owners prior consent.

Not here and not in a lot of other states either.

I think some guys don't read ALL the laws.... some states CCW laws may be a bit vague between "private property (which they're usually referring to as a business open to the public, not a residence) however their trespass laws or other laws usually address it specifically. CCW or not, entering someones home armed without their permission is usually a crime in most states.

and it's plain stupid to do. if you're that damned scared, stay home.

back·ped·al
intr.v. back·ped·aled, or back·ped·alled back·ped·al·ing, or back·ped·al·ling back·ped·als or back·ped·als

1. To move the pedals of a bicycle or similar vehicle backward, especially to apply a brake.
2. To move backward by taking short quick steps, as in boxing or football.
3. To retreat or withdraw from a position or attitude.

[kaferhaus]

So Alabama law allows for use of deadly force to prevent a non-violent misdemeanor?

That's the court's punishment for being caught.... you'd have to be alive to recieve that....

Under alabama law you enter someone's home armed, the homeowner has the right to assume you intend to harm them and have every right to shoot you.

[Zundfolge]

It's not legal to enter a residense "packing" without the owners prior consent.

Not here and not in a lot of other states either.

Fine ... but the original question was about Colorado. No such requirement here.

And as a matter of etiquette I agree your guests should follow whatever rules you make if they wish to remain on your property (even if they are ridiculous) its your right, but you still haven't explained how you can justify killing someone over such a minor offense.

[Travis Lee]

Kaferhaus,

Judging by your statements promising homicide to a friend who you discover to be packing a pistol under his clothes, I think ALL your "friends" have reason to be afraid to go to a dinner at your house.

You don't trust them, why should they trust YOU?

--Travis--

[Zundfolge]

Under alabama law you enter someone's home armed, the homeowner has the right to assume you intend to harm them and have every right to shoot you.


I'd have to hear from an attorney in Alabama on that one. I don't trust your interpretation of the law.

I expect that if you invited Bob from accounting over for dinner and during the course of the meal the discussion turned to guns and he mentioned he was packing XYZ model of gun and you stood up and shot him you'd go to jail for a LOOOONNNNG time.

[MachIVshooter]

It's under the armed trespass law. If you enter onto someone's property armed without the knowledge of the property owner you're guilty of "armed trespass" whether or not you had permission to be on the property yourself.



The legal definition of trespass is to be on someones property without their permission. This definition does not change with the presence of a firearm. "Armed trespass" means to be on someones property without their permission and carrying a weapon.

If someone has permission to be on a particular property it is not trespassing, armed or otherwise.

Likewise, in most cases you cannot accuse someone of trespassing just becasue they are on your property unless it is posted. If it is not posted, you must make that individual aware that they are on private property and are unwelcome. At this point, only if they do not leave are they guilty of trespass.

The way you have interpreted this law would imply that a police officer would be guilty of "armed trespass" if you called them and they showed up. Who's ridiculous now?

[zahc]

if you're that damned scared, stay home.

If you are that damn scared, post one of those nice 'gun free zone' signs on your door. I deliver pizza and see quite a few of them.

I can only assume if you ran a store that you would also prohibit carry by customers, since you don't know anything about them, and you wouldn't be comfortable letting people you know well enough to invite for dinner to come as they are.

I don't shop at stores that let it be known I'm not welcome, so it's safe to say you won't have me over any time soon.

I don't know why you are at THR with such beliefs and attitudes, but whatever.

[kaferhaus]

I expect that if you invited Bob from accounting over for dinner and during the course of the meal the discussion turned to guns and he mentioned he was packing XYZ model of gun and you stood up and shot him you'd go to jail for a LOOOONNNNG time.

No I wouldn't shoot "Bob". But Bob would be shown the door immediately and anyone who "Bob" and I both knew would know that "Bob" was a "fruitcake" who likes to bring concealed firearms into other people's homes without their permission.

"Bob" would certainly lose whatever friends he ever had...

MOST southerners are polite folks and courteous to their hosts and guests, until they do something that shows a total lack of respect of their property and home.

[Dr.Rob]

I've sat down knowingly with a house full of people packing iron and thought nothing of it.

THR Colorado get-togethers are fun.

[kaferhaus]

It's really a basic disagreement here...

you guys think it's okay to carry a concealed loaded gun into someone's home without their permission.

It's against the law in many states, should be in all of them.

I think it's the most rude and impolite thing I could ever imagine anyone doing.

Like I said, I guess I just associate with nicer people, and certainly was raised to respect the sanctity of other peoples homes. And to ASK before doing something that my host may find objectionable.

It's called manners, and some of you guys just don't have any.

[The Real Hawkeye]

No I wouldn't shoot "Bob". But Bob would be shown the door immediately and anyone who "Bob" and I both knew would know that "Bob" was a "fruitcake" who likes to bring concealed firearms into other people's homes without their permission.

"Bob" would certainly lose whatever friends he ever had...

MOST southerners are polite folks and courteous to their hosts and guests, until they do something that shows a total lack of respect of their property and home.Was there some tragedy related to guns in your childhood? You seem to have some very strong emotions in association with them. Unless they are in someone's hand, or in the possession of a criminal, handguns are entirely harmless inanimate objects, just like a cigarette lighter or a pocket knife, both of which can also be used to cause great harm, but they are merely tools, and can do nothing by themselves. Therefore, if Bob from accounting happens to be packing a lighter, a pocket knife, or a revolver, he is still just Bob from accounting. The presence of the object does not transform him into the Boston Strangler, nor does it justify your sending him to his maker. Oh, and on that last point, if you intend to murder people because you don't like the objects they routinely carry on their persons, you had better develop the quick draw method to a fine art, because some people don't take kindly to being fired at out of the blue, and will return lead for lead. It's called the right to self defense, and the first person to draw is in the wrong, under the law.

[Travis Lee]

I think threatening to execute dinner guests is rude and impolite....

--Travis--

[zahc]

It's not about politeness, I fail to see how it's impolite for someone to assume they can carry in your house.

If you have some personal phobia or special requirement of people that come into your house, it seems your responsibility to let them know that.

It would be fair enough to notify them that you have a handgun phobia. But to expect them to anticipate that, and not assume that you will welcome them in your house the same way you have welcomed them in any other interaction is unreasonable.

I'm not a southerner, but maybe double standards, bigotry and hypocrisy are standard elements of ettiquette where you live.

[The Real Hawkeye]

I think threatening to execute dinner guests is rude and impolite....

--Travis--Yeah, ironic, right? I am going to execute every rude person I come across, because, gosh darn it, I just hates them rude folks. The world would be a better place if rude folks were just plain shot on sight, dag nabbit. :scrutiny: Nothing worse than rude folks, except maybe those who would invite someone to dinner, and then based on their own quirky notion of an ettiquette faux pas, murder them.

[Kodiaz]

I think Kaferhaus is a troll. It's too bad, this could have been an exceptional thread.


I will say this Thanksgiving was at my cousin's house and due to the extremely lucrative nature of the "alarm" business here in South Fl if I had my CCW I would have carried at his house without telling him.

But if we are talking about normal folks I would ask. But if you don't want to ask well there is always that old adage "concealed means concealed"

[Old Dog]

Weirdly fascinating thread ... maybe it's just my sheltered lifestyle, but I guess I've always assumed that most guests who come to our house for dinner are packing (of course, my circle of friends are all in law enforcement, military and corrections) and don't have a problem with it.

I just expect that if our guests are going to be imbibing to any extent, they've locked their handguns in their vehicles.

Now, if I go with my wife to a function with her coworkers, friends or acquaintances, who are all physicians, nurses and healthcare professionals, we generally leave our arms locked in our car, unless we know the hosts well and they're either fellow gunfolk or don't have a problem with armed guests.

you guys think it's okay to carry a concealed loaded gun into someone's home without their permission.Well, I think that's a judgement call and may depend on the situation. I'm picking up my kid at someone's house, I'm not going to remove the pistol. I'm invited to a barbeque/pool party and I don't know the people well, it's gonna stay in the car ... If there's Kerry/Edwards stickers still plastered all over the host family's Volvos, I may still keep the pistol with me just to feel better inside ...
It's against the law in many states, should be in all of them.
Why should it be against the law in all of them? Do you think LE should be exempt?

What's the difference between a cop carrying in your house or a law-abiding citizen licensed by your state to carry packing in your house?

[Mad Chemist]

In Alabama, you bet pal, you'd be a dead man. Under no circumstances can you bring a concealed weapon into someone's home without their permission.

It'd be like wearing a sign saying "shoot me, I'm an idiot"



In MY home anything you do is MY business.... you guys are unbelievable.... you go to someone else's home and just do as you please??

Talk about arrogance...

The question that started this thread answered itself..... if you have to ask such a question.... shouldn't it be obvious that maybe it's not a polite or courteous thing to do!

I'm glad we'll never need to worry about inviting each other to dinner.... I'd like to think I have better taste in who I'd invite.


Look in the mirror and see how many of the aformentioned traits apply.

JH

[Winzeler]

I don't give a crap what the law says. I do not surrender my Constitutionally recognized (not appropriated) right to the defense of myself and my family (who would almost certainly be in my company to any dinner party) by accepting any invitation to someone's private property. To me this is a clear-cut, black and white issue. I have even intentionally carried in the households of relatives whom I knew to be anti-gun when travelling with my family. I'm not giving up my primary means of defending us.


By the way, your hosts (whether they agree or not) benefit from your carrying in their home. You afford them protection whether they know it or like it...or not.

[kaferhaus]

dWhat's the difference between a cop carrying in your house or a law-abiding citizen licensed by your state to carry packing in your house?

In my state, it's illegal to "carry" in someone else's residence.

I have LEO friends, who are required to carry even when off duty. I'd have no problem with them.

I have many friends who just like me have CCWs. If I invite one of them over, they leave their guns in the car. If I go to their house, I leave my gun in the car. I have no business with a loaded gun in their house, as they have none with one in mine.

No childhood phobia's for the guy that asked.... I shot IPSC for 15yrs and have been in the Army longer than some of you guys have likely been alive.

Lifetime member of the NRA from back when it was only $200 for a lifetime membership.

Being pro-gun has nothing to do with this arguement and the guys that try to insinuate otherwise just have nothing of substance to add.

Just amazed that you guys think this is acceptable behaviour...

Plenty of guys watching this thread are not willing to "take the heat", but I've gotten more emails than you guy's can imagine from guys that think you're all "nuts".

[Dave Bean]

First, if I were to invite someone into my house for dinner, I would have to be relatively trusting of them. SO....I would let them carry into my house. I would hope they reciprocate.

Some of my friends know that I CCW, but they tell me not in their house, so I will respect that.

I don't drink at all when I carry so that's not an issue.

The gun is safest when I'm in total control (holstered on my body) I wouldn't leave it in the jacket that's hung in a closet or laid on the bed.

Finally, if I CCW into a dinner party, that will probably be one of the safest parties in the neighborhood...for all the members of the dinner party. I will protect their lives as well as mine, they just fail to realize it.

Dave Bean

[TexasRifleman]

Plenty of guys watching this thread are not willing to "take the heat", but I've gotten more emails than you guy's can imagine from guys that think you're all "nuts".

Well then since you're the designated whipping boy, make an argument for your position. You haven't done that. All you've said is "don't carry in mine and I won't carry in yours".

What is your argument?

In Texas at least there is no law against carrying on ANY private property that is not properly marked with an appropriate sign, private residence or public business.

If you're inviting people into your home for a dinner party, you'd think you know them well enough to trust them with a firearm. If not, why the hell did you invite them to dinner?

[kaferhaus]

By the way, your hosts (whether they agree or not) benefit from your carrying in their home. You afford them protection whether they know it or like it...or not.


Now that's sweet.... you enter someone's home armed without their knowledge and you think you're doing them a favor??

Your mama drop you on your head when you were little?

[Old Dog]

So you differentiate between LEOs and legally-packing citizens? Even when the citizens are your friends?

No offense intended, but that's hogwash, plain and simple.

I shot IPSC for 15yrs and have been in the Army longer than some of you guys have likely been alive.Relevance? I just put in 26 years active duty, worked in civilian law enforcement, and am now back in law enforcement. I have also competed in various competitive forms of shooting.

Just amazed that you guys think this is acceptable behaviour...Well, perhaps many of us simply trust the folks we invite into our homes.

[Hawkmoon]

If I caught someone in my home with a concealed weapon, they'd be explaining to the lord that it was legal.

Guaranteed there's no jury in the land that'd convict me for shooting your ass for bringing a loaded concealed weapon to a "dinner party" at my home.... and the fact that you did this without my knowledge will be enough for me to assume you intended to harm someone in my home.
Hello?

Why would you assume that a guest you invited into your home intended harm because he carries a handgun for which he has a license? Since you are on this forum, may I safely assume that you have a CCW? If I notice that you are carrying in the local 7-11, can I follow your logic and cap you because I assume that you intend to harm someone in the 7-11?

Good grief!

[The Real Hawkeye]

I have many friends who just like me have CCWs. If I invite one of them over, they leave their guns in the car. If I go to their house, I leave my gun in the car. I have no business with a loaded gun in their house, as they have none with one in mine.Based on my experience with my circle of friends, I find that truly amazing. I was invited to an old friend's home for the weekend down in Palm Beach County a couple of years ago to spend some time with him, the wife and kids. Came down without a gun, because I hate the hassle of flights with guns, and avoid them if I can. This was before I lived here, and before I had a Florida CCW (Though I had a CCW in my own State). He asked me if I brought my gun, and when I told him that I had not, he asked me which gun of his I'd like to keep with me while I was visiting. I picked the Kimber .45, and carried it loaded IWB the whole time I was there, as he did likewise (We are both 24/7 gun toters). This kind of thing is what I would expect of a friend, yet you see it as somehow discourteous. What kinds of friends do you have? Are you sure you really know what it means to be a friend?

[carebear]

Legality aside, I don't have a problem with people I know carrying in my home, and I don't invite many strangers in. I also don't have a problem not carrying in homes where people ask me not to. It's their house.

For example, I play poker at a buddy's house on weekends and he asks me not to bring my gun in his house. He knows I'm safe, he trusted me with his life in the Marines, his dad was a US Marshal, heck, I was the Best Man at his wedding, he just doesn't want guns in his house. So be it.

As I like his company and that of the other guys we play with, I accede to his wishes and don't carry in his house. I would not dream of even secretly giving him the metaphorical finger and ignoring his wishes, it is his damn house. My only two honorable, polite and respectful two choices are going along with him or not playing poker there.

I am trying to get him to change his mind and find a compromise but it's his house, my "rights" are simply to go along or not go at all, not be dishonest and sneak the gun in. I can't conceive of disrespecting (and potentially losing) a friendship like that.

I'd rather take the minimal risk of not having my gun on me for a few hours on a Saturday night than throw away a decade of friendship.

[Oleg Volk]

Hosting a party now. The 4-year old did not bring a gun. The two 8-year old guests did, and so did all the adults. That's how civilized people do it, IMO.

[kaferhaus]

So you differentiate between LEOs and legally-packing citizens? Even when the citizens are your friends?

Absolutely I do. The LEO may get a call to respond too.

Not an issue with my friends.

You guys have gotten way off track with the original question.

The guy was invited to a dinner party. The host of which he does not know very well.... not a "friends house".

I and the people I choose to associate with do not carry loaded guns into other folks houses.

It's just not a polite thing to do.

[Blue Jays]

Hi All-And what do you suppose the courts will do to you when they find that "armed invader" was a non-violent and invited guest in your home? I can tell you it'll be the last dinner party you throw for quite some time.Don't worry, kaferhaus will still be able to host dinner parties...it'll just be in a Bigger House than the one he has now. Someone else will be tossing the salad as well.

~ Blue Jays ~

[The Real Hawkeye]

Legality aside, I don't have a problem with people I know carrying in my home, and I don't invite many strangers in. I also don't have a problem not carrying in homes where people ask me not to. It's their house.

For example, I play poker at a buddy's house on weekends and he asks me not to bring my gun in his house. He knows I'm safe, he trusted me with his life in the Marines, his dad was a US Marshal, heck, I was the Best Man at his wedding, he just doesn't want guns in his house. So be it.

As I like his company and that of the other guys we play with, I accede to his wishes and don't carry in his house. I would not dream of even secretly giving him the metaphorical finger and ignoring his wishes, it is his damn house. My only two honorable, polite and respectful two choices are going along with him or not playing poker there.

I am trying to get him to change his mind and find a compromise but it's his house, my "rights" are simply to go along or not go at all, not be dishonest and sneak the gun in. I can't conceive of disrespecting (and potentially losing) a friendship like that.

I'd rather take the minimal risk of not having my gun on me for a few hours on a Saturday night than throw away a decade of friendship.Yours is a perfectly reasonable position, and is perfectly consistent with what I and others have been saying, because the man expressed his wishes and you, as a friend, then made a choice to comply or stay home.

[Winzeler]

Now that's sweet.... you enter someone's home armed without their knowledge and you think you're doing them a favor??

Your mama drop you on your head when you were little?
Are insults part of this so-called southern courtesy? I have NEVER insulted someone on this or any other forum. You are not taking The High Road and you definitely have no high ground on me with a statement like that.

For what it's worth, I don't have any problem whatsoever with you guys who choose not to do it the way I do. It's your life, your license, do what you want with them.

[rero360]

In my state, it's illegal to "carry" in someone else's residence.

I have LEO friends, who are required to carry even when off duty. I'd have no problem with them.

I have many friends who just like me have CCWs. If I invite one of them over, they leave their guns in the car. If I go to their house, I leave my gun in the car. I have no business with a loaded gun in their house, as they have none with one in mine.".


why do you make a difference between LEOs and non LEOs? honestly, because in my opinion there is absolutely no difference between a LEO and a non LEO, especially when the LEO is off duty. My one cousin is a CO, another is a sheriff, and another is a town cop, and I'm a Infantry/MP soldier, yet we don't make a big deal about it between us or our non LEO/military friends and family, those that can pack, do so and those who cannot don't, but we all will go outside and shoot and have a good time.

at a thanksgiving dinner a couple of years ago my cousin the town cop came over to the party while on duty, it was his uncles house, and we got talking about guns and he took his piece out and unloaded it and passed it around, even letting my 9 year old cousin check it out, after he got it back, got reloaded and reholstered, no big deal.

[kaferhaus]

Yours is a perfectly reasonable position, and is perfectly consistent with what I and others have been saying, because the man expressed his wishes and you, as a friend, then made a choice to comply or stay home.

NO the arguement is, is it okay to bring a concealed loaded gun into someone's home who doesn't know you have it!

The fellow's response follows what I've said should be done all along. YOU ASK and then you FOLLOW the wishes of the homeowner.

Most of the posters to this thread believe just the opposite is find and dandy.

[pete f]

Boy do you live in a deluded mindset. I carry everywhere. Unless they have metal detectors on hte doors I am carrying. PERIOD. I am not afraid in the peoples home. I am often afraid of the area in which they live.

I have been to several parties and get togethers of friends who have moved into poorer neighborhoods in a tentmakers mission attempt to improve an area by their presence. A local church has worked hard to convince people that moving into the blighted areas is a ministry. Not for my family but i understand the idea. I carry there and back because keeping the gun on me is safer than leaving it in the car. And i will not take my wife and or kids to a neighborhood like that without protection. You may say it is rude, but I say it is prudent. it is also legal.

I also have friends who have bought a new condo over looking the mississippi river in a very nice part of town that borders what has become the sex district. Quite often the area where visitors can park and walk to the condo's has become the place where hookers bring their johns for quickie. Am I going to be carrying there? Absolutely.

If I am going out for the evening I will dress in a such a way that no one will ever know that I am carrying. I expect most would assume that I carry as it is well know of my position on this issue. I believe it the God given responsiblity of myself as a father and husband to protect my wife and kids. I am no nonsense on this issue, I expect most would understand that is my conviction, and knowing my conviction they would be surprised if i did not carry all the time.

The criminal actor does not wait till it is a good time for you to be carrying before he strikes. In most cases, seeing a dressed up and seemingly affluent couple on the town would make me a greater target. That is my reasoning for defending my self at all times.

[Winzeler]

Absolutely I do. The LEO may get a call to respond too.

It's just not a polite thing to do.
You trust LEOs higher than your friends. You and I clearly have no common ground here. I trust LEOs less than my average friend. There is nothing about an LEO that makes him less likely to be a deviant, (or more honorable) than the average person I'd invite to my house. You have your opinion, and that's fine. Let me have mine.

[lawdogso]

If I were the host and a guest that I didn't know real well was packing I would assume he was going to do me harm. After proning him out and disarming him he would be assisted off the property. While doing so I would more than likely call the sheriff and make a report as well. To be invited to my house for a formal gathering and pack while doing so would set off some alarms with me! Great if we have history and knowledge of one anothers skills, but a person who I don't really know just shows up with a concealed gun... We have trouble!
lawdogso

[TexasRifleman]

Your mama drop you on your head when you were little?




It's just not a polite thing to do.

Maybe someones' bipolar is flaring up? Your argument just sank buddy.

[carebear]

Hawkeye,

Yeah, I was just pointing out my take more than "arguing". Now, when it comes to businesses my internal consistency goes out the window. :evil:

For people who aren't friends and to whom I am not willing to expose my carrying, I tend to "not go" both to be legal and to remain internally consistent.

I'm like a CCW vampire, I have no power in their home unless I am invited. :evil:

[The Real Hawkeye]

If I were the host and a guest that I didn't know real well was packing I would assume he was going to do me harm. After proning him out and disarming him he would be assisted off the property. While doing so I would more than likely call the sheriff and make a report as well. To be invited to my house for a formal gathering and pack while doing so would set off some alarms with me! Great if we have history and knowledge of one anothers skills, but a person who I don't really know just shows up with a concealed gun... We have trouble!
lawdogsoKafer, that's a pretty good trick. No support, so you join THR a second time under a different name. I'll have to remember that.

[Hawkmoon]

These really are an excellent set of responses. Thank you all! In the interest of keeping the discussion going, it's apparent that there are different schools of thought here:


Carry at all times
Use judgement to figure out whether your hosts would approve or not
Carry only when you feel you would be in danger
Ask your host
Survey the entire party when you get there and get waivers and disclaimers from all ("I, the undersigned, as of this date and time, am not offended, threatened, or otherwise intimidated by X carrying a concealed weapon in my presence...")

The problem is that #3 on the list (which I highlighted) always applies. It has already been pointed out that a party host probably can't guarantee that there won't be a home invasion during a party, so why should a guest feel safer at the party than in their own home?

I just reviewed my state's firearms laws, and there doesn't seem to be any mention of requiring permission of anyone to carry anywhere on private property ... except (oddly enough) for BB guns, of all things. I need my neighbor's permission to pack a BB gun onto their property, but not my carry piece. Go figure.

So for me, it comes down to: The law doesn't prohibit it, so I ain't asking permission to do what the law allows me to do. If a host sees the gun and doesn't like it ... I will gladly depart the premises peacefully, and permanently. If I lived in a state with a requirement like Alaska's, I would comply with the law and ask permission.

[kaferhaus]

Boy do you live in a deluded mindset. I carry everywhere. Unless they have metal detectors on hte doors I am carrying. PERIOD. I am not afraid in the peoples home. I am often afraid of the area in which they live.

I have been to several parties and get togethers of friends who have moved into poorer neighborhoods in a tentmakers mission attempt to improve an area by their presence. A local church has worked hard to convince people that moving into the blighted areas is a ministry. Not for my family but i understand the idea. I carry there and back because keeping the gun on me is safer than leaving it in the car. And i will not take my wife and or kids to a neighborhood like that without protection. You may say it is rude, but I say it is prudent. it is also legal.

I also have friends who have bought a new condo over looking the mississippi river in a very nice part of town that borders what has become the sex district. Quite often the area where visitors can park and walk to the condo's has become the place where hookers bring their johns for quickie. Am I going to be carrying there? Absolutely.

If I am going out for the evening I will dress in a such a way that no one will ever know that I am carrying. I expect most would assume that I carry as it is well know of my position on this issue. I believe it the God given responsiblity of myself as a father and husband to protect my wife and kids. I am no nonsense on this issue, I expect most would understand that is my conviction, and knowing my conviction they would be surprised if i did not carry all the time.

The criminal actor does not wait till it is a good time for you to be carrying before he strikes. In most cases, seeing a dressed up and seemingly affluent couple on the town would make me a greater target. That is my reasoning for defending my self at all times.

Your statement as do most of the others has nothing to do with the arguement at hand.

[TexasRifleman]

If I were the host and a guest that I didn't know real well was packing I would assume he was going to do me harm. After proning him out and disarming him he would be assisted off the property. While doing so I would more than likely call the sheriff and make a report as well. To be invited to my house for a formal gathering and pack while doing so would set off some alarms with me! Great if we have history and knowledge of one anothers skills, but a person who I don't really know just shows up with a concealed gun... We have trouble!
lawdogso

And in Texas you'd go to jail, if the other guy didn't shoot you first. Gonna have a hell of a hard time using the castle doctrine for drawing down on a CHL holder that you invited into your home who has done nothing to you, let alone even unholstered his weapon.

Hell, I volunteer, I could use a good civil suit. Invite me over......

[Larry Ashcraft]

I've sat down knowingly with a house full of people packing iron and thought nothing of it.

THR Colorado get-togethers are fun.
Exactly. I hosted the last three get togethers. The first one (and others) included Dr. Rob, Justin, Standing Wolf, Zundfolge, Labgrade and some I'm sure I'm leaving out.

I had never met any of these folks before, but we were sitting around my living room that evening and I not only suspected most were armed but I expected they were and would have been surprised if they weren't.

People of like minds.:)

kaferhaus, this statement by you:
Under alabama law you enter someone's home armed, the homeowner has the right to assume you intend to harm them and have every right to shoot you.
Colorado has probably the best castle doctrine law in the nation, the "Make My Day" law it's called. However it doesn't cover the situation you described. I think you need to check your laws closer.

In Colorado, if someone enters your home illegally, AND appears to committing another crime (such as being armed), you may be justified in using deadly force.

Good luck on your defense if you invite someone into your home and then shoot them for packing a concealed weapon.

[browningguy]

Well I guess I won't be visiting kaferhaus in his home. Even though I almost always advise "friends" and respect their wishes, I'm not going to be holed up with someone so out of control of their emotions without being armed.

Anyone that would murder another person, that is otherwise legally carrying, but didn't mention it to him is way out there in my book. I don't think my God would be too happy with how that went down.

The only time I don't advise "friends" is when I forget I'm carrying, but that's just me. If I know you well enough to invite you to my house, and you have a CHL, I figure you're probably ok.

[The Real Hawkeye]

Your statement as do most of the others has nothing to do with the arguement at hand.No, the argument didn't begin until you asserted that you'd send a licensed CCW holder to his maker if you invited him to dinner and he mentioned in friendly conversation that he carries a handgun 24/7 for self defense.

[kaferhaus]

Kafer, that's a pretty good trick. No support, so you join THR a second time under a different name. I'll have to remember that.

Ha, you do have problems...

Now I'm faking posts?

get a life, I'm a big boy. I don't need any "support", it's just simply wrong to carry a gun into someone's home without their permission, Period!

[kaferhaus]

No, the argument didn't begin until you asserted that you'd send a licensed CCW holder to his maker if you invited him to dinner and he mentioned in friendly conversation that he carries a handgun 24/7 for self defense.

I said no such thing.

But in the right circumstance it could lead to that.

IF it came up in polite conversation, he'd be tossed out of my house and then arrested.

If it came up some other way, he may not be so lucky.

[Zundfolge]

If I were the host and a guest that I didn't know real well was packing I would assume he was going to do me harm. After proning him out and disarming him he would be assisted off the property. While doing so I would more than likely call the sheriff and make a report as well. To be invited to my house for a formal gathering and pack while doing so would set off some alarms with me! Great if we have history and knowledge of one anothers skills, but a person who I don't really know just shows up with a concealed gun... We have trouble!
lawdogso

I don't invite anyone into my home I wouldn't trust armed, maybe that policy would serve you better than "proning and disarming" your guests.

[Michael Courtney]

1st I'd never allow anyone to bring a firearm into my house unless they were INVITED WITH THE FIREARM.

I think your question is absurd.

Bringing a concealed weapon into someones home without their prior consent is begging to be shot or humiliated in front of everyone else there.

I've had a CWP for over 30yrs and I've never even considered carrying a gun into someone else's home.

WHY would you even consider such an action? Are you in fear of your life at this person's home? If so, why the hell are you going?

I don't leave my insurance card when I go to a dinner party, why should I leave my pistol? I don't anticipate needing my leatherman at a dinner party, but I always have it with me also.

The notion that certain items, privately carried, need to be left in one's vehicle or at home, for fear of offending the host, is absurd.

What next, should I leave my penis in the car for fear that the host might discover that I am circumcised and take offense?

Michael Courtney

[Zundfolge]

No, the argument didn't begin until you asserted that you'd send a licensed CCW holder to his maker if you invited him to dinner and he mentioned in friendly conversation that he carries a handgun 24/7 for self defense.
I said no such thing.


Okay, now I'm going to call you a liar.

From post #9
If I caught someone in my home with a concealed weapon, they'd be explaining to the lord that it was legal.

[Sistema1927]

Any friend of mine is perfectly welcome to carry concealed weapon into my home. Not that they have me to fear, but:

1) It would be nice to have someone else armed and ready to assist if we were to experience a home invasion, and
2) I would never expect my friend to leave his self defence in his car, and
3) I would never want my friend to travel to of from my home in a defenseless state.

My friends feel the same way, that is why they are my friends.

[The Real Hawkeye]

If I were the host and a guest that I didn't know real well was packing I would assume he was going to do me harm. After proning him out and disarming him he would be assisted off the property. While doing so I would more than likely call the sheriff and make a report as well. To be invited to my house for a formal gathering and pack while doing so would set off some alarms with me! Great if we have history and knowledge of one anothers skills, but a person who I don't really know just shows up with a concealed gun... We have trouble!
lawdogsoI'm assuming that you mean you would draw on that person? If so, you'd not be within your rights, and if that person managed to draw and kill you with his CCW, he'd walk Scott free, because you are not within your legal rights to draw on people peaceably minding their own business, let alone invited guests who have behaved peaceably. If, however, you did manage to disarm the CCW holder, and "prone" him, you'd be arrested for assault and battery. You are not permitted under the law to make the first hostile contact, or to even touch someone without their consent. You must first ask an invited guest to leave before you may engage in "self-help."

[kaferhaus]

Okay, now I'm going to call you a liar.

From post #9
[QUOTE=kaferhaus]If I caught someone in my home with a concealed weapon, they'd be explaining to the lord that it was legal.
/QUOTE]

Show me the quote about it coming up in friendly conversation,,, then you can call me a liar.

It's not what I said

[Hawkmoon]

I and the people I choose to associate with do not carry loaded guns into other folks houses.

It's just not a polite thing to do.
Opinion only ... not fact.

As an opinion, you are certainly entitled to hold it. I am equally entitled to hold an opposing opinion, and insulting me because I disagree with you isn't particularly "polite." (Nor is it in accordance with the High Road way of expressing differences of opinion.)

[Zundfolge]

Show me the quote about it coming up in friendly conversation,,, then you can call me a liar.

Okay, here's your post:
I don't give a damn if your CCW laws say it's okay or not... it's absolutely a stupid idea to carry a firearm into someone's home without first obtaining their permission..

If I caught someone in my home with a concealed weapon, they'd be explaining to the lord that it was legal.

Guaranteed there's no jury in the land that'd convict me for shooting your ass for bringing a loaded concealed weapon to a "dinner party" at my home.... and the fact that you did this without my knowledge will be enough for me to assume you intended to harm someone in my home.


At any dinner party at my home about all there is going on is eating and "friendly conversation" ... dunno what kind of shindigs you throw (but apparently you invite people you don't trust armed, so maybe your dinner parties are dangerous affairs).

I'll let people make up their own minds about your honesty or lack thereof.

[The Real Hawkeye]

[QUOTE=Zundfolge]Okay, now I'm going to call you a liar.

From post #9


Show me the quote about it coming up in friendly conversation,,, then you can call me a liar.

It's not what I saidYour logic is faulty. "Catching," in this context, refers to becoming aware. Becoming aware is a large category. You made no exceptions to it. One among many ways to become aware of something about someone is for them to mention that thing to you. This is inclusive within the concept of becoming aware. You used the term "catching" to imply that the thing you may become aware of was somehow morally tainted. This is a mere private value judgment (which you seem to share with few), and does not distinguish it from the category of becoming aware. Since mentioning something in conversation is a way for you to become aware, you have therefore asserted that you would in fact shoot someone for mentioning to you that he was carrying a CCW. You must be logically consistent.

[Larry Ashcraft]

Guaranteed there's no jury in the land that'd convict me for shooting your ass for bringing a loaded concealed weapon to a "dinner party" at my home.... and the fact that you did this without my knowledge will be enough for me to assume you intended to harm someone in my home.
Nope. Wrong on every count. As I said before, good luck with your defense. Believe me, you're going to need it.

[Hawkmoon]

I said no such thing.
Correction -- you said EXACTLY that.

[kaferhaus]

You guys keep talking about people you'd invite to your house.... that's fine for you.

This thread is about carrying a concealed weapon into someone's home who has not authorized you to do so. It's not about you and your friends and what they're used to. I'ts about being invited to a social function where the host (who is not your friend) is not being allowed to make the determination whether or not you may enter his home with a loaded gun.

For the guys that keep bringing up the "legal CCW carry in my home" thing... IT"S NOT legal in my state to enter upon a residense or dwelling carrying a concealed weapon without the express consent of the owner.

If you do so, you've already broken the law.

Would it ever happen to me? Hell no. My friends as I've already stated have better manners than to ever attempt such a stunt.

So I guess the reality is what I may or may not do is irrelevent as the chances of such happening are near nil.

Same with all your "home invasion senarios". If you live in a bad part of town, work in a bad part of town or go to a bad part of town. You should be carrying. I do in those situations. I never enter someone's home with a loaded gun. Nor would I ask too.

Again the question was is it appropriate to enter someone's home with a loaded gun without the homeowners prior consent.... not even if it's legal.... is it appropriate??

[kaferhaus]

Your logic is faulty. "Catching," in this context, refers to becoming aware. Becoming aware is a large category. You made no exceptions to it. One among many ways to become aware of something about someone is for them to mention that thing to you. This is inclusive within the concept of becoming aware. You used the term "catching" to imply that the thing you may become aware of was somehow morally tainted. This is a mere private value judgment (which you seem to share with few), and does not distinguish it from the category of becoming aware, and since mentioning something in conversation is a way for you to become aware, you have therefore statedt that you would in fact shoot someone for mentioning to you that he was carrying a CCW. You must be logically consistent

Talk about faulty logic.... that post is full of it

[cambeul41]

Was it someone on this board that said, ““bad things happen to good people in ‘safe’ places”?

Does kaferhaus guarantee that he will provide personal security for the guests whom he wants disarmed? Can they trust him to do so?

Does he guarantee the security of his guests’ parked vehicles?

Since it is apparent from this thread that kaferhaus’s view of courtesy are not at all universally shared, perhaps it would be courteous of him to notify his potential guests of his expectations rather than expecting them to notify him.

I might suggest that, if kaferhaus ever does shoot anyone under the conditions he specifies, he should pray that the prosecuting attorney does not discover this thread. If he does, . . . .

[Sistema1927]

If I caught someone in my home with a concealed weapon, they'd be explaining to the lord that it was legal.

Guaranteed there's no jury in the land that'd convict me for shooting your ass for bringing a loaded concealed weapon to a "dinner party" at my home.... and the fact that you did this without my knowledge will be enough for me to assume you intended to harm someone in my home.


That is absolutely insane!

You actually think that you wouldn't serve hard, hard time for shooting someone just because they were carrying a weapon without your permission. If I were to serve on your jury, I would vote to put you away for a long, long time.

How paranoid you must be to believe that anyone carrying a weapon in your presence means you harm. Using your logic, every CCW holder intends to rob the bank everytime that they visit.

You need serious help with your apanoia, and I hope that you will find it before you hurt someone.

[Sistema1927]

Same with all your "home invasion senarios". If you live in a bad part of town, work in a bad part of town or go to a bad part of town. You should be carrying. I do in those situations. I never enter someone's home with a loaded gun. Nor would I ask too.


Home invasions often happen in the best parts of town. That is becuase the bad guys know that there is more loot there.

Just what do you fear from the Armed Citizen? (Or is it a case of you being just on the edge of insanity, and thinking that nobody else can be trusted if you can't?)

[sm]

Zundfolge's sig line :

"There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws...you create a nation of law-breakers and then you cash in on guilt."--Ayn Rand

Makes no difference what part of the country is from , or residing. Simple fact is some folks were raised to Preserve Freedom, Fight Tyranny. All Gubmint Meddlin' has done and continues to do is Erode Society.

Folks have entered homes, camps, settlements and you name it forever with weapons of some sort. It is NEVER the weapon itself - it IS the intent of the user.

If a person enters a home with ill intentions, they do not need to have a firearm or any other weapon. Cast Iron skillet, Kitchen knife, Lamp, golf club, tennis racket...

I guess Chicago and Similar Juridictions do exist for those whom really believe they need protection from themselves / for themselves.

I ain't one of these.

I have only met two THR members in person. We didn't have problem.

I have other folks I have been with all over. Only problem we ever had was going out in public and some statutes , some signage being incorrect...didn't mean a thing to us.

I have had folks visit, and for various reasons, like TSA, did not have a CCW...I loaned these folks a gun who were legal to do so here. Heck I have loaned a kid(s) a shotgun to keep in an apartment of friends from out of town while they studied here for a semester, and not yet 21 therefore not able to get CCW.

These folks got a right no matter what anyone says or thinks. Never a problem me visiting and packing either.

It is not about guns - it is about control.

Some folks ask or prefer folks like myself go check on someone, stay the night after home from surgery, babysit the house, kids and pets when an emergency arises...

I have done the same when I was hurt , or in need...

I trust folks made from the same bolt of cloth as I , with firearms a helluva lot more that those that do not like firearms, or "into" firearms with "Elite" mindset.

Chicago : Looking for a few more Good Sheep.

[kaferhaus]

You actually think that you wouldn't serve hard, hard time for shooting someone just because they were carrying a weapon without your permission. If I were to serve on your jury, I would vote to put you away for a long, long time.

Likely would never be indicted. You know nothing of alabama law. you enter someone's home with a loaded gun without their permission to have that gun in their home, you're the person with the problem.

I wouldn't have a "stranger" in my home in the first place. My friends have better sense.

So, as I've already said, it's a non issue.

[The Real Hawkeye]

Talk about faulty logic.... that post is full of itNo one but you fails to see the errors in your logic. I was merely attempting to map it out so that even you could see it. I guess that was a mistake.

[Infidel]

I'm going with the Raving Lunatic theory.

[Hawkmoon]

For the guys that keep bringing up the "legal CCW carry in my home" thing... IT"S NOT legal in my state to enter upon a residense or dwelling carrying a concealed weapon without the express consent of the owner.

If you do so, you've already broken the law.
Okay, we have established that it's not legal in your state.

It IS legal in my state. Therefore, WHY should I ask permission to do that which is legal? In general, it is viewed by the courts that ignorance of the law is not an excuse for violating it. In that vein, what I am doing by carrying is not illegal. If a host does not wish guets in his house to carry concealed handguns, in my view (and in my state, where such carry is LEGAL without asking permission), it seems to me that it is the responsibility of any homeowner who doesn't want guns in the house to post a notice to that effect.

Why do you suppose businesses post signs saying "No Soliciting Allowed"? How is this any different? If you don't want someone to do something which that person is legally entitled to do ... TELL THEM! It is entirely unreasonable to expect law abiding people to beg your permission to engage in an activity the law says they may engage in.

[Zundfolge]

Again the question was is it appropriate to enter someone's home with a loaded gun without the homeowners prior consent.... not even if it's legal.... is it appropriate??

Well the legality has been addressed ... in Colorado (where the original poster is asking about) the law doesn't prohibit it.

As for the appropriateness, politeness and etiquette of packing without the homeowners prior consent, its pretty clear that the majority posting here see no problem with it either as a guest or a host.

Since YOU clearly feel differently it would seem to me that the lesson learned here is that it is incumbent upon the host to make their wishes known at the time of invite, and if you don't want any of your guests to be armed you should tell them when you invite them, not when you're standing over them as they are dying.

[Sistema1927]

Likely would never be indicted. You know nothing of alabama law. you enter someone's home with a loaded gun without their permission to have that gun in their home, you're the person with the problem.

I wouldn't have a "stranger" in my home in the first place. My friends have better sense.

So, as I've already said, it's a non issue.

I doubt that Alabama law allow you to shoot someone just because you didn't give them permission to carry in your home. You are the worst sort of deluded person, "don't confuse me with the truth, my mind is made up, and I am too proud to admit that I made a rsah statement".

I can guarantee that you would not only be indicted, you would be convicted, and rightly so. We don't shoot people in New Mexico for misdemeanor offenses, and they don't in Alabama either.

[Geno]

Admission is free to CCW Holders who keep it low-down. CCW Holders who ask if they can carry in my house will be turned away--just bad manners!

Doc2005 (Geno) :neener:

[Zundfolge]

Same with all your "home invasion senarios". If you live in a bad part of town, work in a bad part of town or go to a bad part of town. You should be carrying. I do in those situations. I never enter someone's home with a loaded gun. Nor would I ask too.

Can't believe I missed that one.

I was born and raised in Wichita Kansas ... at this point I'm sure you're thinking "So?" ... just before I moved away from there a couple of brothers decided it would be fun to rape/torture and murder a house full of people who lived in a nice neighborhood. You can read the whole horrific story here (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=1908)

The house was in a nice middle class suburban type neighborhood. Some of the people in that house where guests. Had just one of those people been armed the whole mess might not have happened.




Geno ... I'll bring the chips!

[kaferhaus]

Why do you suppose businesses post signs saying "No Soliciting Allowed"? How is this any different? If you don't want someone to do something which that person is legally entitled to do ... TELL THEM! It is entirely unreasonable to expect law abiding people to beg your permission to engage in an activity the law says they may engage in.

A business is open to the public. Your home isn't. Or maybe some of you guys do just have open house, anything goes.

I just can't believe the lack of respect for private property and other peoples private homes..

If your buddies don't mind you carrying in their house.... fine but it has nothing to do with the topic... and none of you have given me any satisfactory reason why it's ok to enter someone else's home with a loaded gun without asking them first?

[Hawkmoon]

A great many people have given you a great many reasons why it's okay. The bottom line is that what we have here is a matter of opinion, and you are unwilling to grant that those who disagree with your OPINION have a right to do so.

My reason for carrying without permission is that the law does not require me to have or to ask permission. To me that reason is ENTIRELY satisfactory, and complete unto itself.

I suspect that to you that will not even be accepted as a reason.

[The Real Hawkeye]

A business is open to the public. Your home isn't. Or maybe some of you guys do just have open house, anything goes. I just can't believe the lack of respect for private property and other peoples private homes..When you invite someone into your home, they are not violating or disregarding your private property rights by entering. They may be unknowingly violating some statutory law (so you say), but that's another matter entirely.If your buddies don't mind you carrying in their house.... fine but it has nothing to do with the topic... and none of you have given me any satisfactory reason why it's ok to enter someone else's home with a loaded gun without asking them first?Because what one carries on one's person is not ordinarily considered subject to veto by one's dinner host. What is so complicated about that? For the same reason, I don't inform my host that I carry a pocket knife or a lighter, both of which, if used with bad intentions, can be deadly in the extreme. You see deadliness is in the heart, not in the inanimate object.

[Larry Ashcraft]

I can guarantee that you would not only be indicted, you would be convicted, and rightly so. We don't shoot people in New Mexico for misdemeanor offenses, and they don't in Alabama either.
Exactly. I have a friend who insists he can legally shoot somebody who is trespassing on his property. Wrong!

Methinks a sit down with a Deputy DA in your county may be in order.

[Larry Ashcraft]

respect for private property and other peoples private homes.
I respect my own and my loved ones safety over over everything else, period.

[jamz]

We seem to have hit upon a sensitive issue with kaferhaus here.


Kaferhaus, I think one of the reasons everyone is disagreeing with you is that they (and I) can't see what your belief is stemming from. Most others here have a core belief: They always carry, and that dictates what they do in people's houses. What is you core belief that produces your rule about no carrying a gun in the house? Note I'm not asking for a legal definition or your version of "politeness". I'm asking you why you've made this decision, or why you would consider it impolite.

I assume that if I carried my pocket folder into your house, it would be okay with you. I assume that if I carried a flashlight, it would be okay with you.

Why is a gun bad, but a flashlight or a knife okay? How about an oxygen tank and a lighter?

Where do you draw the line for what is permissible and what is not in your home, and what logic is making you draw that line?

I think this is where most people are getting confused.

[Hazwaste]

Just amazed that you guys think this is acceptable behaviour...


I can't believe I would have to write this, but YOU HAVE WRITTEN ON A PUBLIC FORUM THAT YOU WOULD MURDER SOMEONE WHOM YOU INVITED INTO YOUR HOUSE WHO DID NOT PRESENT A THREAT TO YOU, SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU THINK IT'S RUDE FOR THEM TO ENTER ARMED!!! :cuss:

On behalf of all people who don't like to be murdered, get some professional help before it's too late. Seriously. :scrutiny:

See you in the news.

[Hazwaste]

We seem to have hit upon a sensitive issue with kaferhaus here...

...I think this is where most people are getting confused.

No Jamz...no confusion here. The guy has announced his intention to commit unjustified homicide. There is no reasoning with someone who thinks like this. :fire:

[The Real Hawkeye]

I can't believe I would have to write this, but YOU HAVE WRITTEN ON A PUBLIC FORUM THAT YOU WOULD MURDER SOMEONE WHOM YOU INVITED INTO YOUR HOUSE WHO DID NOT PRESENT A THREAT TO YOU, SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU THINK [something they did was] RUDE.Hahahahahahahaha! You got that right.

[sm]

...and folks wonder why some of us CCW...

One never knows...

Might be the guy breaking in line in front of you, in a hurry to get home to attend to guests arriving for a dinner party....

[Hazwaste]

...ever hear of the federal law against making terroristic threats over an interstate communications medium?

I'm sorry folks, I've never expressed emotion on this forum, but I get a little annoyed with idiots within the gun-owning community who advocate cold-blooded murder. The icing on the cake is the bragging about his:

a. Military Service (Longer than we've been alive!!! Wowee! You must be about 80 years old! Made General yet?)
b. Competitive Shooting Experience
c. Years of CCW

as if any of these makes those insane statements any less insane.

[kaferhaus]

The insanity is that you guys think it's okay to take a loaded gun into someone else's home without their permission. That is insane.

If you don't feel safe going there, stay the hell home.

Probably the same crowd that believes in the "black helicopters" and UN troops moving into the country to take over.

Guess you've all got your "boogey bags" and MRE stashes etc. at the ready for when "uncle" comes to get you.

The paranoia is that you guys see the boogey man behind every rock, in every house and by Jobe you gonna be da man!

Sorry guys, legal or not in your state, taking a loaded gun into someone's home without their permission is just BS.

I'd wager some of you guys have it strapped on while you have sex. Or you hold it with one hand while you have sex with the other...

I'm done, have fun in your super CCW commando fantasies.

[cambeul41]

AI just can't believe the lack of respect for private property and other peoples private homes..

If your buddies don't mind you carrying in their house.... fine but it has nothing to do with the topic... and none of you have given me any satisfactory reason why it's ok to enter someone else's home with a loaded gun without asking them first?

"What we have here is a failure to communicate."

I am not a threat. The vast majority of CCW holders are not threats. In all likelihood none of the participants on this thread are threats -- except the one who has threatened to kill those who violate his personal code of manners.

We don't see what your problem is. In what way is our carrying objectionable? Where is the lack of respect? Where is your respect for us? You have not given any reason why carrying wherever we go is not acceptable. I feel that you have insulted us all. What is the source of your omnipitence?

I am a former martial artist. How do you propose martial artists be disarmed? Surgically?

[Zundfolge]

The insanity is that you guys think it's okay to take a loaded gun into someone else's home without their permission. That is insane.
I think its insane to allow people in your house that you wouldn't trust armed.

The paranoia is that you guys see the boogey man behind every rock, in every house and by Jobe you gonna be da man!
And its not paranoia to see every houseguest as a potential homicidial maniac? :scrutiny:

It comes down to trust ... I trust my fellow man to be armed and you don't.

[jlbraun]

The insanity is that you guys think it's okay to take a loaded gun into someone else's home without their permission. That is insane.

If you don't feel safe going there, stay the hell home.

Probably the same crowd that believes in the "black helicopters" and UN troops moving into the country to take over.

Guess you've all got your "boogey bags" and MRE stashes etc. at the ready for when "uncle" comes to get you.

The paranoia is that you guys see the boogey man behind every rock, in every house and by Jobe you gonna be da man!

Sorry guys, legal or not in your state, taking a loaded gun into someone's home without their permission is just BS.

I'd wager some of you guys have it strapped on while you have sex. Or you hold it with one hand while you have sex with the other...

I'm done, have fun in your super CCW commando fantasies.

Projection much?

[Biker]

Isn't it bogey man? I've seen boogie...I'm confused, but I'm packing as I will be tomorrow wherever I go that doesn't have a metal detector.
Most of my friends know that I pack, and the ones that don't won't unless I want them to.
What's the big deal?
Mountains and molehills...
Biker

[strambo]

I can't believe I would have to write this, but YOU HAVE WRITTEN ON A PUBLIC FORUM THAT YOU WOULD MURDER SOMEONE WHOM YOU INVITED INTO YOUR HOUSE WHO DID NOT PRESENT A THREAT TO YOU, SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU THINK IT'S RUDE FOR THEM TO ENTER ARMED!!!

Exactly, even if it is illegal in AL not to tell your host your armed....violation of such wouldn't constitute immediate jeapardy of life and limb for the homeowner. All deadly force laws still apply. Is it even a felony or just a misdemeanor? If someone tried to take your silverware, would you shoot them (for entering your house and breaking the law) or just toss them out and call the police? The correct and legal response would be to ask them to leave and call the police and have them charged with violating this law (or any law they broke as long as they don't threaten to harm you, putting you in jeapardy).

I figure with sheeple the thought woudn't enter their minds that I might be armed. With sensible gun folks, the thought wouldn't enter their minds to care if I'm armed. With un-sensible gun folks, may they be as easy to ID as in this thread, so I can stay away.

[Kodiaz]

Gentlemen what we have here is a troll. When you ignore a troll they go away. Now it is time for another ancient southern proverb.


"Arguing with fools is foolish"
"The empty can rattles the most"

[The Real Hawkeye]

The insanity is that you guys think it's okay to take a loaded gun into someone else's home without their permission.The "permission" part is when you invited him in. You don't invite the person in, and then invite in each item of his accouterment individually. When a person is invited in, that's an invitation for him and whatever personal items he normally and innocuously carries with him, unless otherwise specified. Those are the assumptions of reasonable people.

Personally, I proceed as though everyone is armed, as should you. If the person is someone you don't know well, then don't turn your back on him till he leaves, assuming he has to be there for some reason (such as to fix your pipes). If it's someone you positively wouldn't trust with a gun in your home, then don't let him in. All others should be presumed armed yet not feared. That's the way I proceed. That's called being sane.

[Travis Lee]

My, my! Scratch him a little and see what comes out.

Why does a man who carries concealed SO distrust OTHER CCW licensees, that he threatens pre-meditated MURDER for perceived rudeness?

I have taken my pistol off to accomodate the phobias of friends who are hoplophobic, but in the case of another person whom I KNOW to be a CCW, I just can't imagine WHY he would expect me to come to dinner unarmed.

Unless of course he planned cold-blooded murder....

Oh yes, he just said he does.

Better not use the wrong fork.

--Travis--

[Hazwaste]

The insanity is that you guys think it's okay to take a loaded gun...yada yada yada...blah blah blah...question everybody's manhood...blah blah blah...make suspiciously Freudian sex joke...yada yada yada...

And so enters the first name into my ignore filter after three years on the forum. Stupidity I can deal with. There are not enough years left in my life to put up with raving lunacy.

[The Real Hawkeye]

Better not use the wrong fork.Yeah, no kidding. :uhoh:

[jamz]

The insanity is that you guys think it's okay to take a loaded gun into someone else's home without their permission.

Yeah, we do. :) We're pretty happy with the arrangement too. :)

Sorry you were too afraid to answer my questions, it could have been productive and interesting.

[springmom]

Good grief.

If it isn't too much trouble, could I post a slightly different question and hopefully take the temperature down here just a tad?

Let us say that I host a dinner party, and that my friends and acquaintences attend. I have not asked them if they carry. I have not told them they cannot. Nor have I told them they can.

In the course of the dinner party, in which everyone remains stone-cold sober (must be a dinner party during Great Lent, LOL) some remarkably bizarre accident that I can't quite at the moment think of the mechanics of, occurs, and one of the guests' concealed carry weapon discharges, causing physical damage to another guest, who was also concealed carrying.

Now, here's the question: am I liable for what happened to the unintentionally injured guest? I'm assuming (possibly erroneously) that said guest would not sue me, but they might; and even if they didn't, would I be liable for their injuries?

All of this leads to a tangential issue, and that is: if you are at my house and I ask you not to be armed, and somebody, seeing a dinner party in progress, decides to come in and do a home invasion to steal all your wallets, jewelry, my roast and potatoes I cooked for you, etc., am I liable for your protection while you are on my property? IOW, if I were to tell you not to be armed and you complied, and then came to harm on my property, what would the liability picture be then?

I hope this can recenter the thread back into civility.

Springmom

[TexasRifleman]

And so enters the first name into my ignore filter after three years on the forum. Stupidity I can deal with. There are not enough years left in my life to put up with raving lunacy.

And flat out dishonesty.

As far as I can find Alabama law does not restrict concealed permit holders from entering a private residence without express permission other than being invited in in the first place, which was his reason for gunning down anyone that did.

In fact, Alabama appears to have a VERY open policy on where carry is restricted.

He's really going to need that lawyer now.

[Biker]

Interesting, Springmom. Personally, if I was asked not to carry at a friend's house, I would either comply or not go. Too many variables for this hairy ol', simple scooter tramp.
I might BS, but I never lie.:)
Biker

[jlbraun]

All of this leads to a tangential issue, and that is: if you are at my house and I ask you not to be armed, and somebody, seeing a dinner party in progress, decides to come in and do a home invasion to steal all your wallets, jewelry, my roast and potatoes I cooked for you, etc., am I liable for your protection while you are on my property? IOW, if I were to tell you not to be armed and you complied, and then came to harm on my property, what would the liability picture be then?

I hope this can recenter the thread back into civility.

Springmom

That's a good question, and one that deserves answering.

[Sistema1927]

I hope this can recenter the thread back into civility.

Springmom

Don't count on it.

I think that the best course of action is to ignore the troll and add him to my ignore list.

[Hazwaste]

IOW, if I were to tell you not to be armed and you complied, and then came to harm on my property, what would the liability picture be then?

I'm no lawyer, but if precident states that the police have no obligation to provide personal protection then I wouldn't think individuals would be under that obligation.

[Zundfolge]

Let us say that I host a dinner party, and that my friends and acquaintences attend. I have not asked them if they carry. I have not told them they cannot. Nor have I told them they can.

In the course of the dinner party, in which everyone remains stone-cold sober (must be a dinner party during Great Lent, LOL) some remarkably bizarre accident that I can't quite at the moment think of the mechanics of, occurs, and one of the guests' concealed carry weapon discharges, causing physical damage to another guest, who was also concealed carrying.

Now, here's the question: am I liable for what happened to the unintentionally injured guest? I'm assuming (possibly erroneously) that said guest would not sue me, but they might; and even if they didn't, would I be liable for their injuries?
Whomever's gun discharged would be the liable party, not the home owner (especially because it would likely discharge because of the gun owner's negligence).

All of this leads to a tangential issue, and that is: if you are at my house and I ask you not to be armed, and somebody, seeing a dinner party in progress, decides to come in and do a home invasion to steal all your wallets, jewelry, my roast and potatoes I cooked for you, etc., am I liable for your protection while you are on my property? IOW, if I were to tell you not to be armed and you complied, and then came to harm on my property, what would the liability picture be then?
None, because I have the option of not coming into your house if I'm not allowed to be armed (which would likely be my response).

I hope this can recenter the thread back into civility.
One can certainly hope :)

[carebear]

Good grief.

If it isn't too much trouble, could I post a slightly different question and hopefully take the temperature down here just a tad?

Let us say that I host a dinner party, and that my friends and acquaintences attend. I have not asked them if they carry. I have not told them they cannot. Nor have I told them they can.

In the course of the dinner party, in which everyone remains stone-cold sober (must be a dinner party during Great Lent, LOL) some remarkably bizarre accident that I can't quite at the moment think of the mechanics of, occurs, and one of the guests' concealed carry weapon discharges, causing physical damage to another guest, who was also concealed carrying.

Now, here's the question: am I liable for what happened to the unintentionally injured guest? I'm assuming (possibly erroneously) that said guest would not sue me, but they might; and even if they didn't, would I be liable for their injuries?

I think they'd have a tough tort to make, but I've seen weirder. I think your insurance company would have their own take on paying out (such an accident would be first covered under your homeowners policy IIRC). If it makes it to a jury, all bets are off, juries do weird things.

All of this leads to a tangential issue, and that is: if you are at my house and I ask you not to be armed, and somebody, seeing a dinner party in progress, decides to come in and do a home invasion to steal all your wallets, jewelry, my roast and potatoes I cooked for you, etc., am I liable for your protection while you are on my property? IOW, if I were to tell you not to be armed and you complied, and then came to harm on my property, what would the liability picture be then?

Morally/ethically? I might try to make you feel bad ("See, I TOLD you you should've let me keep my gun on.") But it isn't like you could predict the attack, and besides, I have the right to not attend your party if I don't want to be disarmed. That sorta constitutes consent and a waiver of liability to my mind.

Again, I think I'd have to make the case that the direct cause of my harm was your disarming me, which means I'd have to convince a jury my CCW would have more than likely prevented it. Which is tough to prove.

My .02

I hope this can recenter the thread back into civility.

Springmom

[TexasRifleman]

I'm no lawyer, but if precident states that the police have no obligation to provide personal protection then I wouldn't think individuals would be under that obligation.

It's no different than the local Stop-N-Rob posting signs disallowing firearms. Do they have a requirement to protect you?

Has anyone successfully sued a 7-11 or some such for the same thing?

[Johnnybgood]

nothing more then a rabble rouser seeing how much he can stir people up. You get them time to time. I usually laugh at them, give them a few prods and watch them blow up from their own internal stimuli. As for me and my home even here in Illinois. If your my guest and want to carry here fine. Just remember concealed means concealed. Some of my guests may not be as enlightened as the rest of us.:neener:

[sm]

springmom-

One's local jurisdictions may differ.

I did not look up any cites.

There have been some businesses that had the proper signage, following statutes, that allowed a business not otherwise restricted by statutes to post NO CCW signs...

That after discovering they [Business] were responsible for persons on Business Property since NO CCW allowed. From the time they left their vehicle, conducted business/shopping, and until they once again entered vehicle and left property.

BTW some of this was "revealed" by THR members to various businesses all around the country in regard to various CCW and Pro Gun matters.

Many businesses took down the signs...:)

Methinks some similar legalese may exist for homeowners. IANAL, and again statutes vary.

Anyone stealing Roast & Potatoes with gravy is supposed to be shot, hung, and shot again. Born and Raised in the South...some stuff ain't on the books...just "is". :)

Steve.

[Please tell me there is dinner rolls/ bread for sopping, and coffee and Apple Pie for dessert...Fried Apple Pies will work just dandy !! :D ]

[Larry Ashcraft]

I've had it.

kaferhaus, you have the distinction of being the first on my ignore list.

Goodbye.

[Zundfolge]

I've had it.

kaferhaus, you have the distinction of being the first on my ignore list.

Goodbye.
I dunno Larry, he's awful entertaining...you sure you want to miss the fun? :neener:

[springmom]

Apple pie is ALWAYS on the menu at a dinner party at my house, because it's my favorite :D And dinner isn't dinner without nice hot rolls to go with.

Springmom

[brufener]

SECTION 23‑31‑225. Carrying concealed weapons into residences or dwellings.

No person who holds a permit issued pursuant to Article 4, Chapter 31, Title 23 may carry a concealable weapon into the residence or dwelling place of another person without the express permission of the owner or person in legal control or possession, as appropriate. A person who violates this provision is guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, must be fined not less than one thousand dollars or imprisoned for not more than one year, or both, at the discretion of the court and have his permit revoked for five years

Part of the trespass law that applies to "holders of CCW permits"

If you needed a further reason to put Kaferhaus on your ignore list, here it is. He has lied. Title 23 of the Alabama code refers to "Highways, roads, bridges and ferries." The section he quoted does not exist.

My guess is that he lifted the section from another state.

Bryce

[Sistema1927]

If you needed a further reason to put Kaferhaus on your ignore list, here it is. He has lied. Title 23 of the Alabama code refers to "Highways, roads, bridges and ferries." The section he quoted does not exist.

My guess is that he lifted the section from another state.

Bryce
Yep, a Google search showed that this is South Carolina law. Got to wonder about someone who would quote the laws of another state in order to justify their desire to gun down dinner guests.

[sm]

:D

I am a Southern Gentleman, meaning some stuff just "is".

A true Gentleman provides covering fire for a lady as she reloads -Tamara

A true Southern Gentleman also provides Armed Protection for Table Fare as a guest in another's home. -me

BBQ Guns are a Tradition down South. I mean one is just "expected" to show up armed.

Not once has there ever been any BBQ stolen at one of these "gatherings".

Dogs don't count, they are supposed to sneak food off plates and such...entertainment...them folks from "not around these parts" stepping and fetching , and a carryin' on....while they be shooin', dogs be chewing off their plates....

Other parts of the country may differ, then again just who in the hell shows up for Quiche Dinner anyway? Damn sure not very good "company" and if the BG wants the Quiche...well some crooks are really dumb...

[autospike]

If you needed a further reason to put Kaferhaus on your ignore list, here it is. He has lied. Title 23 of the Alabama code refers to "Highways, roads, bridges and ferries." The section he quoted does not exist.

My guess is that he lifted the section from another state.

Bryce


Yeah, I just got to this thread, but the whole time I was wondering where the heck he had gotten this info. I'm in AL and have never heard about this "law".

[jeepmor]

No I wouldn't shoot "Bob".

Is that 2 points or 3 points for a reversal....backpedal...

Kaferhaus, please take your meds before shooting your mouth off and then spending the next several pages simultaneously justifying and contradicting your own statements.....

Like I said, I guess I just associate with nicer people
Nicer than you does not appear to take much effort from reading your rants, not much at all

It's called manners, and some of you guys just don't have any.
Kaferhaus, your comments were the only ones lacking of manners in this discussion, what do the rest of you think?

It's just not a polite thing to do.
Here, I can find something I agree with, but concealed is concealed and they are NOT technically trespassing with MY permission to be there now are they.

Likely would never be indicted
That said, the delusion is quite apparent to everyone....but you. You best consult with a lawyer before your next gathering should one of your CCW friends "forget" to remove his piece. Some people carry so much that it's just like carkeys or a wallet in their pocket, they just always have them on their person and don't give it a second thought.

"black helicopters"
I have personally seen the black, no markings anywhere on the bird, helicopters with my own eyes, more than once....I'll bet the pilot was packing too.....

All in all, my answer to the original question would be a NO if i knew the crowd well, plus my friends and I get together to drink beers and see who's the best BS artist.

My alternate response if I did not know the crowd well would be "concealed means concealed." There have been instances of invasions at parties where it turned out fatally bad for the folks due to no protection being present in the home or on any person.

I had a friend/acquaitance a few years back (he moved to TX for new job) and he was an avid CCW holder. He took his pistol everywhere he was legally allowed. A couple of co-workers have stories of him and another colleague coming to visit and the both of them politely and respectfully announcing their guns and asking the homeowners if it would be okay to "remove" them during dinner for they were uncomfortable. The homeowners said it was okay and they both plopped their pistolas onto the coffee table. The homeowner was a little put off by the weapons, but also tolerant and accepting of their legal right to do so. He followed their relieving themselves of their hip weights with a "c'mon guys, your in McMinnville." To which they responded, "you just never know." They laughed it off, smiled and had an otherwise uneventful evening. The homeowner chose not to engage in a 2nd Amendment debate and just blew it off and enjoyed the gathering as he had intended originally.

It does make good conversation occasionally, we have mused about it repeatedly, always ending in a good laugh and healthy rolling of the eyes. My first response is always, why didn't they leave them in the car? To which we agree and get back to work.

And an important yet cliche point is missing here. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. So the gun is not a threat, the person is. A person with a gun is a bigger threat, but the gun won't get the intent or assault charge, or do the time for behaving attrociously, the person does. The gun doesn't have any decision making or rational thinking power the person does....and that's the point. So your intention (kraferhaus) is the one of malevolence in this scenario purely by your own rantings. Kraferhaus, THR posts offer an "edit" mode, I suggest you remove some of your statements and replace them with a

"sorry, I was such a dumbass folks, please forgive me for lying and deceiving you because I was in a bad mood today and simply refused to back down from my poorly chosen words due to being an old codger with more attitude than brains or civility at the moment."

I've gone back and removed statements I've made when I got a bit emotional and said not so nice things about how to handle meth'd up folks who steal your car with the family pet inside. Because even though I don't directly know any THR members yet, I do respect their opinions and strongly believe it is my obligation to keep my statements in check with common decency and respect for others. Sure, we all get a bit punchy at times, but the sign of truly good character is the ability to examine your behavior, learn from it, apologize for it when it's inappropriate, and then ask for forgiveness and try to remember not to be a big dumb ass all over again in the next thread.

jeepmor

[The Real Hawkeye]

Good grief.

If it isn't too much trouble, could I post a slightly different question and hopefully take the temperature down here just a tad?

Let us say that I host a dinner party, and that my friends and acquaintences attend. I have not asked them if they carry. I have not told them they cannot. Nor have I told them they can.

In the course of the dinner party, in which everyone remains stone-cold sober (must be a dinner party during Great Lent, LOL) some remarkably bizarre accident that I can't quite at the moment think of the mechanics of, occurs, and one of the guests' concealed carry weapon discharges, causing physical damage to another guest, who was also concealed carrying.

Now, here's the question: am I liable for what happened to the unintentionally injured guest? I'm assuming (possibly erroneously) that said guest would not sue me, but they might; and even if they didn't, would I be liable for their injuries?This is a great law school type question. The answer is that you are not liable, because as "licensees," your guests were only owed reasonable care on your part, i.e., you were responsible only to warn them of threats that you knew about, and you had zero duty to institute a procedure to seek out and discover all potential hidden threats that might be present.All of this leads to a tangential issue, and that is: if you are at my house and I ask you not to be armed, and somebody, seeing a dinner party in progress, decides to come in and do a home invasion to steal all your wallets, jewelry, my roast and potatoes I cooked for you, etc., am I liable for your protection while you are on my property? IOW, if I were to tell you not to be armed and you complied, and then came to harm on my property, what would the liability picture be then?

I hope this can recenter the thread back into civility.

SpringmomAnswer to question number two is that the guests, in choosing to come anyway, have voluntarily "assumed the risk" of coming unarmed, and you are not liable.

[Zundfolge]

Here's a parallel scenario:

You have an extremely long driveway (lets say you live in the country for instance) and one of your guests, a licensed driver, hits one of your other guests with his vehicle.

You wouldn't be liable, the driver would be.

[boogieshoes]

Notify? I wouldn't. Concealed is concealed.

However, I would use my best judgement and if I knew, or even thought, that the host would disapprove, I would not carry in their home.

for a POV from someone who's more likely to be the host than the carrier... it'd depend on the circumstances of the visit (to my house). for most instances, i wouldn't be inviting you over at all unless i know you and trust you to some degree. emotionally, my house space = my personal space. at which point, you should know me enough to figure out that if, frex, you're going to be at my place for a few hours, i don't really care, as long as everything's legal. but if you're going to stay for a few days, or there's going to be kids around, i want the option of having the gun locked up, if need be. that's not actually to say i want the gun to *be* locked up at any time, but i'd feel better knowing that the option is available, if for some reason i (or you) become uncomfortable with it.

-bs

[Otherguy Overby]

Nearly 160 posts back when Kaferhaus hijacked this thread has anyone realized you all have been debating someone who's online handle translates as bughouse? :neener:

[Chrontius]

Flame Warriors (http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/)

How many can we spot in this thread?

[PlayboyPenguin]

1st I'd never allow anyone to bring a firearm into my house unless they were INVITED WITH THE FIREARM.

I think your question is absurd.

Bringing a concealed weapon into someones home without their prior consent is begging to be shot or humiliated in front of everyone else there.

I've had a CWP for over 30yrs and I've never even considered carrying a gun into someone else's home.

WHY would you even consider such an action? Are you in fear of your life at this person's home? If so, why the hell are you going?
I have to agree (with the point if not the tone it was made with)...I would not do it. Plus, in some states, it is illegal to carry onto private property without consent.

[Nematocyst]

I would assume that most anyone I would invite to my home for a dinner party (or be invited by) would be something of a friend. I usually have gotten around to letting my friends know I carry and I ask them if they have a problem with me carrying in their houses. Many carry themselves so it isn't that big of a deal...If I didn't trust them not to attack me, I probably wouldn't have invited them to a meal that involves knives. :rolleyes: I'm on the same page as carebear.

Or as we used to say, +1.

:cool:

Nem

[Kaylee]

enough.
with.
the attacks.

:scrutiny: