Rifle to become a better marksman


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michael_aos
February 12, 2006, 08:05 PM
I've got a couple of AR-15's. An AR-10.

Plenty of handguns. Custom 13.27lb precision bolt-action rifle in .260 Remington.

Shotguns. .22's. A bunch of air rifles.

Probably too many, truth be told.

I shoot IPSC, IDPA, 3-gun / multi-gun.

Despite, or perhaps BECAUSE of all this, I'm just not the crackerjack shot I'd like to be.

To rectify this situation, my current plan is to purchase a Remington 700 LSS in .243 Winchester and a Leupold 4.5-14x scope and just shoot it and shoot it and shoot it.

I had toyed with the idea of 6mm "no neck" BR, or even a 6.5 Grendel upper, but I keep coming back to the .243.

Thoughts? Anything else I should be looking at instead?

http://www.remington.com/images/products/firearms/centerfire/lgsil_700lss.jpg

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Mushy
February 12, 2006, 08:39 PM
To rectify this situation, my current plan is to purchase a Remington 700 LSS in .243 Winchester and a Leupold 4.5-14x scope and just shoot it and shoot it and shoot it.

Sounds like a good plan.

3 gun
February 12, 2006, 08:58 PM
Doesn't sound like an equipment problem at all. Going to a bolt gun would make you a better shot with a scoped bolt gun but won't help much with the shooting you'll do in 3 gun. What you need to do is get a case or two of good ammo and go find a high power league to shoot in. It will make you a better rifleman with anything..period.

rbernie
February 12, 2006, 09:12 PM
I would have thought that the AR would be the best platform to use to learn on, since the cost of decent ammo is signifcantly less than the other platforms.

michael_aos
February 12, 2006, 09:20 PM
I would have thought that the AR would be the best platform to use to learn on, since the cost of decent ammo is signifcantly less than the other platforms.

Except....

I tend to think there's a tendency to put less emphasis on each individual shot when you know you've got another 29rds in the magazine.

Mike

f4t9r
February 12, 2006, 09:23 PM
Good choice
I also like the 22-250

michael_aos
February 12, 2006, 09:23 PM
won't help much with the shooting you'll do in 3 gun.

I know. I'm actually more interested in the random prairie-dog / crow / coyote / MGM auto-popper @ 200-300yds.

I hear about these old-timers of yesteryear that could shoot a fly off a buffalo, or whatever.

Mike

RiverwinoIA
February 12, 2006, 10:19 PM
I hear about these old-timers of yesteryear that could shoot a fly off a buffalo, or whatever.


Ive also heard they walked to school a mile in the snow barefoot, uphill both ways.

wanderinwalker
February 12, 2006, 10:45 PM
I'd get one of those AR-15s set-up for Highpower Service Rifle and go learn how to shoot there. Frankly, once you get good shooting across-the-course with that rifle, you'll be able to adapt to anything rather quickly. Shoot the bolt-guns occasionally to remember how to manual operate to get past round number 1!

At least I can easily switch from a 1903A3 to my scoped .260 hunting rifle (nice caliber choice BTW ;) ) to my AR-15 to my Marlin 1894PG. Any one of the bunch in the right hands commands respect; the bigger guns just give you more range to touch something.

The .260 will punch MOA groups at 100 and 200 with regularity. The AR will punch MOA out to 600. The Marlin is a brush hunting rifle and I haven't benched it at 50 or 100 yards yet. The 03A3 will hold 1.5-2 MOA most days with good ammo.

Okay, pick the one you like the most and find the most useful and get good with it. Take your new gun money and invest in ammunition or components to make ammunition! ;)

michael_aos
February 12, 2006, 10:46 PM
I also like the 22-250

For some reason I'd kind of overlooked the 22-250. I guess I assumed the .243 would be better in the wind?

Mike

michael_aos
February 12, 2006, 10:51 PM
I'd get one of those AR-15s set-up for Highpower Service Rifle and go learn how to shoot there.

For some reason I just can't get excited about Highpower. Although that suddenly has me thinking silhouette might be good.

Mike

michael_aos
February 12, 2006, 11:09 PM
I also like the 22-250

There are some nice 22-250's out there.

http://www.remington.com/images/products/firearms/centerfire/lgsil_700vsf.jpg

http://www.remington.com/images/products/firearms/centerfire/lgsil_700vssf2.jpg

rbernie
February 12, 2006, 11:41 PM
I tend to think there's a tendency to put less emphasis on each individual shot when you know you've got another 29rds in the magazine.
So use a 5 round magazine, or download the mags, or use a single-shot mag insert thingee. That's a discipline thing, not a rifle thing. I can't think of any better way to learn to shoot a rifle than to pick a chambering that allows one to afford lots of reasonable-quality ammo. After that, learning to shoot becomes a matter of selecting and sticking to a training program that will get ya where you want to be.

Sounds to me like you have 'wannanewgun-itis'. That's not a bad thing, mind you, but it's not quite the same as 'I wanna learn to shoot better'.... :D

mpthole
February 12, 2006, 11:49 PM
Instead of blowing the $ on a new gun and then having to stock or load for another caliber, how about spending that same amount of money on some good quality training? There are lots of good schools and instructors out there.

michael_aos
February 13, 2006, 12:16 AM
I can't think of any better way to learn to shoot a rifle than to pick a chambering that allows one to afford lots of reasonable-quality ammo. After that, learning to shoot becomes a matter of selecting and sticking to a training program that will get ya where you want to be.

Sounds to me like you have 'wannanewgun-itis'. That's not a bad thing, mind you, but it's not quite the same as 'I wanna learn to shoot better'.... :D

I handload, so cheap factory ammo isn't a huge concern. 69gr .223 Matckings run $12.99/100 -vs- 70gr .243 Matchking at $13.99/100 or 90gr FMJBT at $13.79.

It also so-happens there are some local gun-games with a .243 minimum.

I'd probably have the barrel cut-back a little to make it handier, and since I enjoy shooting steel the reduced velocity might actually be a plus.

Mike

ocabj
February 13, 2006, 12:48 AM
For some reason I just can't get excited about Highpower. Although that suddenly has me thinking silhouette might be good.

Mike

Though, it is the one of the best formats under which to learn and excel at marksmanship. You have to shoot prone, standing, and kneeling/sitting with iron sights. So, I agree with the service rifle highpower recommendation.

If not that, you say you have 22s already. You should learn how to shoot it standing unsupported at 1" targets at 50 yards.

Silhouette will work if you can find a venue for it. I don't know what caliber you'll need for rifle silhouette, but as far as pistol, the 7mm TCU is popular, but the basic 30-30 is common. You pretty much want to stay above 6.5mm as far as hunter pistol silhouette goes (unless you shoot rimfire, of course).

Will Fennell
February 13, 2006, 10:00 AM
IF you really want to learn to shoot a rifle well.....pick a nice, realitively heavy and accurate .22, and start buying ammo it likes by the 5000 round case. Get some small targets.....start with paper targets so you can learn from you misses....and spend more time on the range. A copy of Cooper's "The Art Of The Rifle" would also be recommended reading.



After a few cases, you should be getting there;)

JesseJames
February 13, 2006, 10:10 AM
Um, this may sound obvious, but, I think you may want to work on your technique.
When I was in the Army Infantry Basic training, before we ever shot a live round of ammo, the Drill Seargent had us insert a section of cleaning rod into the muzzle and then balance a penny on it while we practiced our trigger squeeze.
No joke.
In my civilian life I've seen guys show up on a firing range with all matter of expensive gear and man alive they couldn't hit their asses with both hands.
Then you see a guy show up with just a really nice rifle, and a few custom-loads.
Right then I knew I was gonna be taken to school.
Personally I have a Savage 12FLVSS in a .22-250. Excellent rifle although the magazine-well is bogus. I enjoy shooting it and have had a dandy time grouping at 200 yards.

1911 guy
February 13, 2006, 10:29 AM
While I do think that a rifle capable of the accuracy you want is a good thing to have, my thoughts would lean toward training to get your skill beyond the capabilities of your current equipment. If you can't outperform your current rifle, there's no need for a new one. Want, however, is incurable and sometimes just as valid a reason.

michael_aos
February 13, 2006, 11:04 AM
IF you really want to learn to shoot a rifle well.....pick a nice, realitively heavy and accurate .22, and start buying ammo it likes by the 5000 round case. Get some small targets.....start with paper targets so you can learn from you misses....and spend more time on the range. A copy of Cooper's "The Art Of The Rifle" would also be recommended reading.



After a few cases, you should be getting there;)

This really rings true for me. 10yrs ago I had a much larger backyard and shot air-rifles back there all the time. Crossman 160 from the CMP, Daystate Hunter, some custom QB77's, Tau, etc. I was a MUCH better shot at that time.

I also purchased a Marvel 1911 .22 conversion and an MGM 1/2-size IPSC target. My IPSC scores have improved dramatically after a couple thousand rounds of .22.

While the .22 definitely has merit, the (perhaps more precisely defined) goal is to be able to shoot smallish targets at random distances under varying conditions out to 300yds.

This introduces more variables, such as wind and range-estimation and understanding the bullet trajectory.

Mike

michael_aos
February 13, 2006, 11:36 AM
Instead of blowing the $ on a new gun and then having to stock or load for another caliber, how about spending that same amount of money on some good quality training? There are lots of good schools and instructors out there.

There's a "hunter" / safari-prep course at Gunsite that's probably very close to what I have in mind.

Otherwise my impression is a lot of the classes are either geared toward Police Sniper (punching itty-bitty bugholes @ 100yds) or Military Sniper (crawling on your belly with a 20lb rifle and calculating mil-dots)

We camp a lot and are fortunate to be in areas that we can set up an ad-hoc range out to 200-300yds and sometimes even 500yds.

I'd be more interested in an "advanced plinking" course.

:D

Mike

Will Fennell
February 13, 2006, 11:48 AM
Mike,
Now we have a better understanding of your goals.....

randon small targets at unknown distances....... this can easily be practiced by shooting randon small targets at randon distances out to say 100 yards. Wind effect and trajectory will come into play at these ranges with 22 rimfire, at a much lower cost.

After that, move up to a centerfire, but you will have finely honed your basic skills at a much lower cost, and without putting alot of wear on a good centerfire barrel.

Don't forget that this is a great chance to practice shooting in field postitions and conditions, not just off a bench.

michael_aos
February 13, 2006, 11:53 AM
While I do think that a rifle capable of the accuracy you want is a good thing to have, my thoughts would lean toward training to get your skill beyond the capabilities of your current equipment. If you can't outperform your current rifle, there's no need for a new one. Want, however, is incurable and sometimes just as valid a reason.

When I look through the "stable", I see a few possible options.

My first choice was a Sabre Defence AR-15. 1:9" twist 14.5" bbl with the SDI-marked Cavalry Arms lower and a Leupold 3-9x40mm PR scope. Even with match ammo though, I've only been able to eke out maybe 2MOA. So when I miss a stationary clay-pigeon at 200yds, I wonder if that was me, or the rifle. I don't really want to put any money into this gun.

I've also got an Armalite M15A4 with a JP 20" 1/8 twist medium-weight barrel kit and JP floated handguard. CMC supermatch flat single-stage trigger. Equipped with a TA-11 ACOG, it's a 3-gunners dream. I shoot local matches with it, and shot the Cavalry Arms multigun match last year and attended the Tactical Response "Tactical Rifle" course last summer with it. It's an AMAZING shooter.

I guess I could swap out the scope on the M15A4 and feed it some different ammo, but honestly I just kind of like having it as my "3-gun, gun". I've also noticed .223 tends just zip right through a clay-pigeon without busting it, and high-velocity ammo like M193 from a 20" barrel is tough on my steel targets.

Mike

michael_aos
February 13, 2006, 12:01 PM
randon small targets at unknown distances....... this can easily be practiced by shooting randon small targets at randon distances out to say 100 yards. Wind effect and trajectory will come into play at these ranges with 22 rimfire, at a much lower cost. ... Don't forget that this is a great chance to practice shooting in field postitions and conditions, not just off a bench.

You guys are pretty convincing. It so happens I've got a Ruger K10/22T (the heavy-barrel, target model) with a Leupold 2-7x28mm rimfire scope.

I'd been plagued with malfunctions in the past, so I haven't really shot it much. It also balances kind of funny with the really heavy barrel.

This Marvel 1911-.22 conversion forced me to evaluate a lot of .22 loads. I hadn't realized they varied so much. I need to go through the same exercise with this 10/22 rifle.

Mike

michael_aos
February 13, 2006, 01:46 PM
I assumed the 1:9" twist on this 16" bbl would be fine with 69gr Sierra Matchkings.

Maybe I should try a little shorter bullet before I totally write it off.

Mike

michael_aos
February 13, 2006, 03:22 PM
So use a 5 round magazine, or download the mags, or use a single-shot mag insert thingee. That's a discipline thing, not a rifle thing.

Yeah, you're right. I've just noticed that a "day at the range" with an AR-15 or my IPSC Limited .40 S&W consumes far more ammo than a day with a double-action revolver (.44 Special) or bolt-action Remington 700P in 260 Remington. Even with the HS Precision 10rd detachable box magazine.

Admittedly, it's a different "kind" of shooting though too.

Mike

farscott
February 13, 2006, 03:24 PM
IF you really want to learn to shoot a rifle well.....pick a nice, realitively heavy and accurate .22, and start buying ammo it likes by the 5000 round case. Get some small targets.....start with paper targets so you can learn from you misses....and spend more time on the range.Those are the words I live by. After lots of handgun work with a reliable and accurate .22 LR autoloading pistol, I wanted to do the same thing with a rifle. I ended up buying a CMP Kimber 82G (single-shot, bolt-action target rifle) owned by a fellow High Road member. I have been humbled trying to shoot the rifle in all kinds of weather at distances of up to 200 yards. The experience has forced me to learn how to better read wind, to better judge distance, and to better control my own body. My 200-yard groups are still nothing to mention, but my shooting at shorter distances is greatly improved. My centerfire shooting, while limited, also is showing progress.

michael_aos
February 13, 2006, 03:30 PM
I bought a couple thousand round-nose CCI Mini-Mags when Sportsmans Warehouse was having a sale.

I didn't realize until I got home, there were ~1400 of the hollow-point CCI Mini-Mags mixed in with them. No returns on ammo.

My Marvel 1911-.22 conversion doesn't like the HP's at all, but I'll give them a try in my Ruger K10/22T.

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/images/Products/124H.gif

michael_aos
February 13, 2006, 03:35 PM
I have been humbled trying to shoot the rifle in all kinds of weather at distances of up to 200 yards. The experience has forced me to learn how to better read wind, to better judge distance, and to better control my own body. My 200-yard groups are still nothing to mention, but my shooting at shorter distances is greatly improved. My centerfire shooting, while limited, also is showing progress.

It's just never occurred to me to shoot a .22LR out to 200yds.

Mike

Pardini Fan
February 13, 2006, 03:38 PM
I am a terrible shot. I have improved but I haven't become good enough for my liking.

I have a bunch of toys also. I found a few things that helped me.

1) Art of the Rifle by Jeff Cooper

2) Get a pellet rifle. I found one at Walmart for $75. It has a terrible trigger. When I do shoot a rifle with a good trigger, I am even better. I try to shoot 10 shots at a time-5 or 6 times a week.

3) Get a 10/22. Take it to the range and shoot for groups at 50 feet. I use
the handgun targets.

4) The Ching sling has helped me with offhand shooting.

I have improved and I can hit a deer. I won't win any matches but that was not my intent. A moose is calling my name next season.

Zak Smith
February 13, 2006, 03:53 PM
Mike,

You already have the rifles you need to develop better marksmanship skills. A good start would be to shoot Eddie's standards until you can ace them every time, then work on speed. You can do it with your AR and M193, nothing fancy.

michael_aos
February 13, 2006, 03:56 PM
Mike,

You already have the rifles you need to develop better marksmanship skills. A good start would be to shoot Eddie's standards until you can ace them every time, then work on speed. You can do it with your AR and M193, nothing fancy.

Busted!

I was hoping you wouldn't see this post.

:eek:

You're right though, it's Eddie's standards that got me thinking about this whole thing. And it's those same standards that have me thinking "if I just had a different rifle"...

I'm always looking for an equipment-based solution.

Mike

michael_aos
February 13, 2006, 05:41 PM
Not saying I'm going to buy one. Just happened to notice my local dealer has a Remington 700 LSS in .243 for $729.

Mike

Zak Smith
February 13, 2006, 05:45 PM
It probably does not have the twist you want.

Even if it did, it'd be basically just like shooting your 260.

michael_aos
February 13, 2006, 05:46 PM
My AR-10 was supposed to fill this role. With a 22" Lilja barrel, chambered in 260 Remington.

Right now it's wearing a Leupold 6.5-20x40mm target scope with the Leupold Dot reticle.

It's HEAVY though. And a little long. And as much as I like the caliber, 260 Remington isn't exactly a "plinking" round.

It's one heck of a shooter though. Prone & sitting / supported.

Mike

michael_aos
February 13, 2006, 05:49 PM
It probably does not have the twist you want.

Even if it did, it'd be basically just like shooting your 260.

Twist is a concern. It's 1:9.125", which I think gets me up to 100gr.

Recoil should be about 25% less than the .260, at the same weight.

But I'd like to see it weigh 4-5lbs less than my 260 bolt-gun.

Mike

Zak Smith
February 13, 2006, 06:11 PM
243 isn't a plinking round either, considering it is the same amount of work to reload as 260 or 308.

For marksmanship practice to 400 (Pueblo), there's no point in using something exotic. A 223 with heavy bullets or a 308 shooting AUS/SA surplus would be fine.

You're right though, it's Eddie's standards that got me thinking about this whole thing. And it's those same standards that have me thinking "if I just had a different rifle"...

I'm always looking for an equipment-based solution.
How would different equipment help? Was the weak-hand pistol stage at TV3G hard because we were shooting the wrong pistols?

Those standards can be shot with a 16# sniper rifle, or a 7# AR-15 A2. For what it's worth, I'll be shooting his matches with my AI 308 with the JET on, which has got to be over 16# and equivalent length to a 31" barrel.

michael_aos
February 13, 2006, 06:17 PM
For what it's worth, I'll be shooting his matches with my AI 308 with the JET on, which has got to be over 16# and equivalent length to a 31" barrel.

I was curious about that. The 5-shots, offhand, at a 4" x 4" target is going to suck.

Mike

michael_aos
February 13, 2006, 06:37 PM
How would different equipment help? Was the weak-hand pistol stage at TV3G hard because we were shooting the wrong pistols?

No, but....

I think it's helpful to practice with a .22 conversion on a 1911, and / or even a 9mm @ ~130PF, even if I actually compete with a hi-cap .40 S&W & VVN320 w/Montana Gold bullets at major PF.

I've heard that shooting is very much a mental game. It so happened that was my first stage, on the first day, and I crumbled under the pressure.

I liken it to shooting pool and choking on the 8-ball.

In a possibly-related note, I've noticed a correlation between confidence and making the shot. If I'm CONFIDENT I can make the shot, then I typically can. If I'm not so sure, or I start 2nd guessing, I tend to blow it. I assume there's a direct relationship to just shooting more often, under more varied circumstances.

Unless I'm planning to shoot 400yds+, I'm typically not inclined to lug my AR-10 or 700P to the range or camping.

I keep thinking maybe a short, lightweight, "handy" .243 would actually make it to the range more. And thus be shot more. Especially in the 200yd-300yd range.

It's all mental.

Mike

michael_aos
February 13, 2006, 06:46 PM
..there's no point in using something exotic. A 223 with heavy bullets...

So if we assume, for a moment, you guys have convinced me to abandon my ideal super-duper ultimate .243 dream...

What scope would you suggest to stick on this 20" AR?

Mike

michael_aos
February 13, 2006, 08:31 PM
Interestingly, as I was driving home from work, I was thinking...

If I were shooting the Sporting Rifle Match in Raton -- I'd want my 260.

If I were shooting your Practical Rifle Team Challenge -- I'd want my 260.

So I'm not quite sure how to explain this compulsion of mine for something smaller, shorter and lighter and generally handier for "everything else".

Mike

wanderinwalker
February 13, 2006, 09:18 PM
Well, desire to buy a new gun is a very, very powerful force. Once started, it can be difficult to cure, so I've noticed. (I currently want a Thompson/Center Encore in .30-06, blued with camo stock.)

I'd say if you have a light, 20" AR-15, you've got a rifle that can be set-up for what you want. But if you have to have a new gun, go for it. Just be warned; hardware will not solve the software problem.

Zak Smith
February 13, 2006, 09:58 PM
I was curious about that. The 5-shots, offhand, at a 4" x 4" target is going to suck.
It'll be stable. I'm pretty sure there are Service Rifles that weigh over 20#. In any case, I'm not doing it because that's the optimal setup for that match, I'm using it because it's my standard long-range rifle, and 400 yards is within its effective range.

I think it's helpful to practice with a .22 conversion on a 1911, and / or even a 9mm @ ~130PF, even if I actually compete with a hi-cap .40 S&W & VVN320 w/Montana Gold bullets at major PF.
So why wouldn't you ALWAYS train with the Limited 40 and Major PF ammo? Cost? 10k rounds of reloaded 40SW should only be around $800.

Unless I'm planning to shoot 400yds+, I'm typically not inclined to lug my AR-10 or 700P to the range or camping.

I keep thinking maybe a short, lightweight, "handy" .243 would actually make it to the range more. And thus be shot more. Especially in the 200yd-300yd range.
Why not? Both of those rifles are (should be) capable of shooting 1/2 MOA targets out to 400 yards. It is unlikely that you (or I) can hit a 2" square at 400 yards even half the time.

For a 20" AR, you could use a 3-9 M/RT if you need that much precision. Otherwise the ACOG is a standard answer to the general purpose optic question.

The solution to your "problem" is to load another 1000 rounds of 260 and go shoot it, or shoot your AR15. You already have the tools.

michael_aos
February 13, 2006, 10:07 PM
10k rounds of reloaded 40SW should only be around $800.

I figure more like $1280, but the point is still valid.

Mike

michael_aos
February 13, 2006, 10:16 PM
The solution to your "problem" is to load another 1000 rounds of 260 and go shoot it, or shoot your AR15. You already have the tools.

I typically keep 400-500rds loaded for my 260, plus another 400-500rds for the AR-10. I've easily got 1000rds of "misc" 260 loads that didn't quite work out that I need to go through and pull or something.

I've got LOTS of M193, Wolf, and a lot of .223 handloads.

Fine.

Buzzkill. Spoilsport. Killjoy.

:neener:

Mike

michael_aos
February 13, 2006, 10:20 PM
For a 20" AR, you could use a 3-9 M/RT if you need that much precision. Otherwise the ACOG is a standard answer to the general purpose optic question.

I'm thinking those 4" x 4" squares are going to look pretty small at 200yds, even at 9x. I've been practicing with clay pigeons that are around 4" diameter and a Leupold 3-9x40mm PR scope.

Mike

lycanthrope
February 14, 2006, 12:00 AM
How about an AR upper in .243 WSSM?

michael_aos
February 14, 2006, 12:13 AM
How about an AR upper in .243 WSSM?

That kind of goes back to Zak's assertion that there's no need to get exotic.

Mike

michael_aos
February 14, 2006, 12:16 AM
OK, I pulled the TA11 ACOG off my Armalite M15A4 and stuck that Leupold 3-9x40mm PR scope on it.

Weighs in at 9.63lbs empty.

Mike

ReadyontheRight
February 14, 2006, 12:28 AM
Training is great.
New equipment is fun.
Practice is a given.

There's nothing in the world that will improve your marksmanship like competition.

Get that AR out there and shoot some Highpower events.

Save some $$ off the fancy training and go to the shooting clinics and rifle games at Camp Perry in August.

THEN go to Gunsite to learn how to turn good marksmanship into accurate practical shooting.

LAK
February 14, 2006, 08:57 AM
What Will Fennell said.

Except in place of "heavy" I would go with a sporter with the best trigger you can find. CZ perhaps.
------------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

Michael Courtney
February 14, 2006, 10:06 AM
New rifles are always nice, and if they do nothing else, they give us motivation to shoot more since the new rifle's capabilities need to be explored.

However, scopes with 4x magnification and higher tend to emphasize the kind of slow rifle shooting that can be common in varmint hunting, and stand hunting of larger game, but they don't do much for the faster rifle skills needed in stalking game, or in defensive situations. Of the two, the faster rifle skills are harder to acquire and maintain.

I recommend the book, _The Art of the Rifle_ by Jeff Cooper. I also recommend that you obtain the NRA qualification booklet and work your way through some of the rifle qualification processes described in it.

Michael Courtney

dm1333
February 14, 2006, 11:27 PM
I have been shooting a minimum of 300 rounds a week for a little more than a month because I am also interested in bettering myself. I have been working hard on my trigger squeeze and breathing. My routine is to shoot 5 or 10 round groups sitting, off hand, prone, then to plink various targets(broken clay pigeons, bottles, rocks, etc.) with another 5 or 10 rounds and then repeat it all again. I managed to impress myself today in a very windy (30+ mph) gravel pit today with some really tight groups shot sitting at 50 yards. I hit just about every piece of junk and can that I aimed at while plinking up to 80 or 90 yards. I also shot my M38 scout and my groups were tighter on that too.

Don

dm1333
February 14, 2006, 11:59 PM
One other thing I forgot, PHYSICAL FITNESS! I'm 40 and thought old age was finally catching up with me(lots of lower back pain). Some physical therapy and a new work out routine with lots of dead lifts, squats, and clean and press has made a huge difference in every day life. Very easy to get into sitting positions now and no creaking when I bend over.

michael_aos
February 15, 2006, 12:08 AM
I have been shooting a minimum of 300 rounds a week for a little more than a month because I am also interested in bettering myself. I have been working hard on my trigger squeeze and breathing. My routine is to shoot 5 or 10 round groups sitting, off hand, prone, then to plink various targets(broken clay pigeons, bottles, rocks, etc.) with another 5 or 10 rounds and then repeat it all again. I managed to impress myself today in a very windy (30+ mph) gravel pit today with some really tight groups shot sitting at 50 yards. I hit just about every piece of junk and can that I aimed at while plinking up to 80 or 90 yards. I also shot my M38 scout and my groups were tighter on that too.

Don

Yep, that's the sort of shooting I'm talking about -- although perhaps more in the 200-300yd range.

An old abandoned junkyard / gravel-pit would be ideal. No ad-hoc targets allowed at my range.

There's an old farmhouse / outbuilding / associated junk and lots of garbage in an area I used to hunt antelope. It's a couple hours from here. I aught to inquire if I can get in there in the off-season and maybe hunt some rabbits.

Mike

dm1333
February 15, 2006, 02:53 AM
I have a choice of 3 gravel pits and no ranges! I can actually shoot close to 100 yards in the pit I was in today but I was trying to stay in the sun to keep warm. Shooting at known distances is good, but I think plinking cans and rocks and stuff that is scattered all over the pit helps a lot because I don't get stuck in the rut of shooting at the same range. Since I don't have the option of 2,3 or 400 yards shots my goal is to be able to shoot tight groups on very small targets. I'm also going to try to get a few friends interested in shooting matches, things like CMP Sporter and maybe running/shooting type biathlons. What part of Colorado are you in? I am stationed in northern CA right now, but have been thinking of retiring to northern AZ or NM, maybe southern CO.

rangerruck
February 15, 2006, 05:05 AM
get an old remmy mohawk at a gun show, get it in 6mm , put a bipod on it, learn to breath and control that weapon from the bench and the prone. a 6mm will smoke a 243, Academy still sells the factory remmy 6mm bullets, and they are same price as 243. plus you will probably the only dude around with a tiny 16 in bbl , beautiful Mohawk.

michael_aos
February 22, 2006, 07:58 PM
I've read good things about the "no neck" 6mm BR. I'm not sure how well it would feed from a magazine though.

I've yet to really rationalize a valid "need" for it, but I've just always wanted a Remington 700P LTR.

http://www.remingtonmilitary.com/images/smallarms/ltr.jpg

michael_aos
February 22, 2006, 08:09 PM
Mike,

You already have the rifles you need to develop better marksmanship skills. A good start would be to shoot Eddie's standards until you can ace them every time, then work on speed. You can do it with your AR and M193, nothing fancy.

I guess I just kind of think of my M15A4 is my "3Gun gun", as opposed to a general-purpose, do-everything sort of rifle.

I took out on Monday for a while. It's pretty amazing.

http://homepage.mac.com/michael_aos/.Pictures/Guns/AR15/IMG_5405.jpg

michael_aos
February 22, 2006, 08:16 PM
How would different equipment help? Was the weak-hand pistol stage at TV3G hard because we were shooting the wrong pistols?

I think that particular stage would have been easier with a high-capacity, minor power-factor 9mm, yes.

Should I have been able to do it with a single-stack .40 S&W and major power-factor? Yes.

Shooting is a lot more of a mental game (at least for me) than I originally thought it was.

Having the "right" equipment helps me mentally, which helps me overall.

Mike

colt.45
February 23, 2006, 12:11 AM
if you want to become a real marksman you definately dont want a scoped bolt-action hunting gun chambered in a special purpose round, youl waste your time reloading and waste all your money on ammo. get a good accurate (2-4moa) semi auto rifle chambered in a faily common, powerful and cheap military round, also make sure it can accept hi-cap mags and get alot of em. whoever says that semi's make you spend less time on your shots is wrong, this only applies to people with no disipline or children.

your ar-15 will wor just fine, but inorder to become a rifleman you need to practice, so get LOTS of ammo, get to the range and practice the fundimentals, triger squeeze, sight picture, spot weld, the three positions, breathing and any others i forgot. and dont underestimate the power of airgun practice, it helped me alot.

michael_aos
February 23, 2006, 12:18 AM
idont underestimate the power of airgun practice, it helped me alot.

I used to shoot my air-rifles a lot, and I think it helped me a lot.

Unfortunately I lost my big backyard a few years ago. Now I feel when I've driven 45-minutes to the shooting-range, I might as well shoot a firearm.

Mike

pete f
February 23, 2006, 03:19 AM
do you live in a apt now or a house. Indoor everday practice is good too.

pellets in the basement or .22 CB caps work wonders on your shooting. A few old phone books, a box of garage sale books or an old log will work for backstops.

not always legal but fun.

michael_aos
March 29, 2006, 08:39 PM
No new rifle for me. Still shooting my AR-15's and 260's.

http://homepage.mac.com/michael_aos/.Pictures/Guns/700P/IMG_5468.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/michael_aos/.Pictures/Guns/AR10/IMG_5512.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/michael_aos/.Pictures/Guns/SDI/A100_1312_img.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/michael_aos/.Pictures/Guns/AR15/IMG_5514.jpg

Terrierman
March 29, 2006, 08:51 PM
Everybody needs a good accurate bolt rifle and .243 is a mighty fine choice. Don't let anybody talk you out if it.

rangerruck
March 30, 2006, 04:17 AM
i disagree with the 243 for several reasons. now , on game , this is a great all around cart, but for primarily target shooting your are should be good out to 300 yds easy, if you wanna do some longer range work, i would suggest 3 , my personal fave the old 6mm remmy , the 308, and the 6.5 swede. the 308 and the 6.5 swede you can get excellent quality milsurp or new mfgr rounds for both. the 6mm and the 6.5 are noted for shooting like a lazer throuhg the wind and not moving. the 6mm , you can still get new mfgr rounds at academy for about 8 to 10 bucks a box. also the 6mm case design is much better and longer lasting on the throat/neck/ chamber of a rifle than a 243, the 243 is very unstable in this regard.
i would get a rifle that makes you be a better shot, that you have to work for it.
go find an old remmy mohawk, or 788, with a upper vent rib, 16 in bbl, and fully adjustable rear site, in 6mm, you can get them at gun shows for about 3 to 500 bucks, depending on condition. they are a great, light, handy rifle.

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