NYT: Violent Crime Rising Sharply in Some Cities


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Harry Tuttle
February 13, 2006, 08:59 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/12/national/12homicide.html



February 12, 2006
Violent Crime Rising Sharply in Some Cities
By KATE ZERNIKE
MILWAUKEE — One woman here killed a friend after they argued over a brown silk dress. A man killed a neighbor whose 10-year-old son had mistakenly used his dish soap. Two men argued over a cellphone, and pulling out their guns, the police say, killed a 13-year-old girl in the crossfire.

While violent crime has been at historic lows nationwide and in cities like New York, Miami and Los Angeles, it is rising sharply here and in many other places across the country.

And while such crime in the 1990's was characterized by battles over gangs and drug turf, the police say the current rise in homicides has been set off by something more bewildering: petty disputes that hardly seem the stuff of fistfights, much less gunfire or stabbings.

Suspects tell the police they killed someone who "disrespected" them or a family member, or someone who was "mean mugging" them, which the police loosely translate as giving a dirty look. And more weapons are on the streets, giving people a way to act on their anger.






Police Chief Nannette H. Hegerty of Milwaukee calls it "the rage thing."

"We're seeing a very angry population, and they don't go to fists anymore, they go right to guns," she said. "A police department can have an effect on drugs or gangs. But two people arguing in a home, how does the police department go in and stop that?"

Here in Milwaukee, where homicides jumped from 88 in 2004 to 122 last year, the number classified as arguments rose to 45 from 17, making up by far the largest category of killings, as gang and drug murders declined.

In Houston, where homicides rose 24 percent last year, disputes were by far the largest category, 113 out of 336 killings. Officials were alarmed by the increase in murders well before Hurricane Katrina swelled the city's population by 150,000 people in September; the police say 18 homicides were related to evacuees.

In Philadelphia, where 380 homicides made 2005 the deadliest year since 1997, 208 were disputes; drug-related killings, which accounted for about 40 percent of homicides during the high-crime period of the early 1990's, accounted for just 13 percent.

"When we ask, 'Why did you shoot this guy?' it's, 'He bumped into me,' 'He looked at my girl the wrong way,' " said Police Commissioner Sylvester M. Johnson of Philadelphia. "It's not like they're riding around doing drive-by shootings. It's arguments — stupid arguments over stupid things."

The police say the suspects and the victims tend to be black, young — midteens to mid-20's — and have previous criminal records. They tend to know each other. Several cities said that domestic violence had also risen. And the murders tend to be limited to particular neighborhoods. Downtown Milwaukee has not had a homicide in about five years, but in largely black neighborhoods on the north side, murders rose from 57 in 2004 to 94 last year.

"We're not talking about a city, we're talking about this subpopulation, that's what drives everything," said David M. Kennedy, director of the Center for Crime Prevention and Control at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York. "When they calm down, all the numbers go down. When they heat up, all the numbers go up. They hurt each other over personal stuff. It's respect and disrespect, and it's girls."

While arguments have always made up a large number of homicides, the police say the trigger point now comes faster.

"Traditionally, you could see the beef growing and maybe hitting the volatile point," said Daniel Coleman, the commander of the homicide unit in Boston. "Now we see these things, they're flashes, they're very unpredictable. Even five years ago, in what started as a fight or dispute, maybe you'd have a knife shown. Now it's an automatic default to a firearm."

In robberies, Milwaukee's Chief Hegerty said, "even after the person gives up, the guy with the gun shoots him anyway. We didn't have as much of that before."

Homicide rates are driven by different factors in each city, but even cities whose rates have fallen have seen problems with disputes, though those disputes are often about drugs or gangs. "As the murder universe continues to shrink in New York, the common denominators remain consistent," said Police Department Deputy Commissioner Paul J. Browne. "In most instances, killers and victims knew each other, each had criminal records, and they were engaged in disputes, usually over narcotics."

Nationally, the homicide rate peaked in 1991, declined steadily after 1993 and has remained essentially flat since 1999. But in the first six months of 2005, according to preliminary statistics from the F.B.I., the number of homicides nationwide rose 2.1 percent, with the greatest increase, 4.9 percent, in the Midwest.

Yet many cities have seen far steeper increases. In Boston and San Francisco the number of homicides last year was at its highest in a decade, and in Prince George's County, Md., outside Washington, it was the highest ever.

In St. Louis, the number of homicides rose to 131 last year from 113 in 2004. Tulsa had 64 murders, 2 more than in 1993. Charlotte jumped from a record low of 60 homicides in 2004 to 85 in 2005. And the murder rate for 2005 was above the 15-year average in Kansas City, Mo., and Nashville.

A large part of the problem, the police say, is simply more guns on the streets as gun laws have loosened around the country. In Philadelphia, Commissioner Johnson said, since the state made it easier to get a gun permit in 1985, the number of people authorized to carry a gun in the city has risen from 700 to 32,000.

But the police also blame lax sentences and judges who they say let suspects out on bail too easily. Here, Deputy Chief Brian O'Keefe recalled a man who was released from prison on an armed robbery conviction after two years, with five years' probation, and killed someone within three months. In Nashville, Chief Ronal W. Serpas recalled an 18-year-old who had been arrested 41 times but was out on bail when he killed a bystander in a fight over a dice game.

"We have people who've done two, three, four, five shootings who are back on the streets," said Kathleen M. O'Toole, Boston's police commissioner. "Unless we have bail reform, unless these impact players with multiple gun arrests are kept off the streets, we won't reverse this problem."

Still, some of the problems are hard to address with tougher laws.

The neighborhoods with the most murders tend to be the poorest. In Milwaukee, Mallory O'Brien, an epidemiologist brought in to direct the new homicide review commission, said suspects and victims tend to have been born to teenage mothers. The city has one of the nation's highest teen pregnancy rates for blacks, and among black men, one of the lowest high school graduation rates. An industrial base that used to provide jobs for those without a high school diploma has shrunk.

Chief Corwin of Kansas City said that in the hardest-hit neighborhoods, people had explained it as a "lack of hope." "If I don't have skills, I don't have training, my socioeconomic situation looks desperate, do I really have hope?" he said. "I think that ties into the anger. If the only thing I have is my respect, that's what I carry on the street. If someone disrespects me, they've done the ultimate to me."

Those who study crime debate whether the cities where homicide is rising represent a trend.

"It's a couple of cities with bad luck and with local problems which are very real, but not necessarily part of a national pattern," said Franklin E. Zimring, a law professor at Berkeley who is writing a book on the crime drop of the late 1990's.

But Mr. Kennedy, at John Jay, said the decrease in homicides in big cities has obscured the problem in many other places.

"In many places — both cities and increasingly suburban and rural settings — things never got as good as they did nationally," he said. "Even if things got better, they didn't get as better as they did in Los Angeles or New York. In many places, they're getting worse."

Certainly, the number of homicides is lower than its peak in the early 90's — Milwaukee had 168 killings, not including Jeffrey Dahmer's serial murders, in 1991. But the number is far higher than in recent years, and alarming to a public that has gotten used to good news. Boston, which peaked with 151 murders in 1990, had declined to 31 in 1999. Nashville in 2004 had its lowest homicide rate in the history of city government, with 58 murders, before jumping to 99 last year.

"Because for this decade the sense is that crime is down, it's very hard to speak out about it and not look as though you're doing something wrong," said Chuck Wexler, the executive director of the Police Executive Research Forum, a research and public policy group in Washington. "People's expectation of crime has significantly changed."

In some of the cities, overall crime has declined, thanks to a significant drop in property crimes. But the rise in homicides and robberies causes alarm.

"It's hard for people to look at it in depth and understand that they're not likely to be a victim if they get along with their family members and neighbors and don't live a high-risk lifestyle," said Darrel Stephens, the police chief in Charlotte.

Cities say they are going after illegal guns and are trying to stop disputes from becoming homicides. Kansas City used to investigate only some aggravated assaults; now it follows up on all cases, on the theory that next time, the assault might be a homicide. Boston and Philadelphia are sweeping neighborhoods for people who have violated warrants. In St. Louis, the police have put cameras in high-crime neighborhoods and have sent gang units to talk to parents of chronically truant students.

But recognizing that the problems have deep roots, cities are also going beyond traditional law enforcement, trying to involve churches, schools and social service agencies. In Boston, the neighborhood sweeps are followed by work crews that repair potholes, trim trees and remove graffiti.

Here in Milwaukee, the police are tagging "M.V.P.'s," or major violent players — people with several arrests, who are more likely to be involved in arguments and homicides, according to Ms. O'Brien's analysis. Those names are announced at daily police briefings.

The city has also put prosecutors and probation and parole officers on patrol with police officers, because they have more immediate power to rein in chronic offenders by enforcing curfew, nuisance laws, and restrictions against alcohol or drug use and association with gang members.

The homicide review commission has frequent, formal meetings with corrections officers, prosecutors and social service agencies to identify problem families, and is meeting with schools to assess what they are teaching about conflict resolution and how to reduce truancy.

Next month, police officials say, they will have the first of several town hall meetings with the neighborhoods with the highest homicide rates, to get residents' ideas on how to stop the killings.

"We didn't get here in a day," said Ms. O'Brien, the epidemiologist. "There's no simple solution."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
How long has it been since the principal of this school last had to switch a pupil?"

"Uh, I'm not sure. About two years. The kid that swiped --"

"Never mind. Long enough. It means that such punishment is so unusual as to be significant, to deter, to instruct. Back to these young criminals -- They probably were not spanked as babies; they certainly were not flogged for their crimes. The usual sentence was: for a first offence, a warning -- a scolding, often without trial. After several offenses a sentence of confinement but with sentence suspended and the youngster placed on probation. A boy might be arrested may times and convicted several times before he was punished -- and then it would be merely confinement, with others like him from whom he learned still more criminal habits. If he kept out of major trouble while confined, he could usually evade most of even that mild punishment, be given probation -- 'paroled' in the jargon of the times.

"This incredible sequence could go on for years while his crimes increased in frequency and viciousness, with no punishment whatever save rare dull-but-comfortable confinements. Then suddenly, usually by law on his eighteenth birthday, this so-called 'juvenile delinquent' becomes an adult criminal -- and sometimes wound up in only weeks or months in a death cell awaiting execution for murder."

Starship Troopers, Robert A. Heinlein, 1959 (http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/viewtopic.php?id=2526)

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Maxwell
February 13, 2006, 09:17 AM
A large part of the problem, the police say, is simply more guns on the streets as gun laws have loosened around the country.

You mean *gasp* criminals ignored the law that told them to check their weapons at the door?

Im amused by the fact they see guns as being directly linked to murder.
That its not an influx of poor, the prohibition on drugs, the lack of personal defense items, corruption in the system as well as a weakened police force contributing to the fact people are killing other people.

Its the guns.
The guns done gone and lept out their holsters to shoot people.

KriegHund
February 13, 2006, 09:19 AM
What a bunch of cow manure.

New York, Miami and Los Angeles

I have a link to the DOJ stats that shows this isnt the case. If i remember ill add it later, but i dont feel like going through my school stuff right now.

joab
February 13, 2006, 09:25 AM
We're seeing a very angry population, and they don't go to fists anymore, they go right to guns,

"In peaceful times warlike men will turn on each other"

America is being "civilized past the point of human nature

Dispute that in the past were handled man to man are now handled in the court room.
Bad word will get you thrown in jail, chicken finger guns will get you expelled from elementary school.
The kids of zero tolerance have grown up having never learned to stand up and have a simple shoving match and knowing no other way to handle the anger that is allowed to bottle up inside them.

Just my amateur psycho opinion

Bartholomew Roberts
February 13, 2006, 10:08 AM
said Police Department Deputy Commissioner Paul J. Browne. "In most instances, killers and victims knew each other, each had criminal records, and they were engaged in disputes, usually over narcotics."

But it is the gun owners who don't use drugs or have criminal records that are the problem because they won't let us take their guns away based on the actions of drug using criminals...

"It's hard for people to look at it in depth and understand that they're not likely to be a victim if they get along with their family members and neighbors and don't live a high-risk lifestyle," said Darrel Stephens, the police chief in Charlotte.

You said a mouthful there, chief. Apparently it is hard for some reporters and police chiefs to understand that CHL holders aren't the source of their crime and that an increase of CHL holders has nothing to do with people with previous criminal records shooting each other at an increased rate.

fourays2
February 13, 2006, 11:00 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/12/national/12homicide.html

The police say the suspects and the victims tend to be black, young — midteens to mid-20's — and have previous criminal records. They tend to know each other. Several cities said that domestic violence had also risen. And the murders tend to be limited to particular neighborhoods. Downtown Milwaukee has not had a homicide in about five years, but in largely black neighborhoods on the north side, murders rose from 57 in 2004 to 94 last year.


I'm surprised this statement didn't get this guy labelled as a "88".

longeyes
February 13, 2006, 11:21 AM
Repeat after me: It's not a gun problem, it's a culture and values problem.

MuzzleBlast
February 13, 2006, 12:05 PM
The police say the suspects and the victims tend to be black, young, midteens to mid-20's, and have previous criminal records. They tend to know each other.
And in other news, rain has been found to be wet and snow has been found to be cold.

Pilot
February 13, 2006, 12:33 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/12/national/12homicide.html

The police say the suspects and the victims tend to be black, young €” midteens to mid-20's €” and have previous criminal records.

A large part of the problem, the police say, is simply more guns on the streets as gun laws have loosened around the country. In Philadelphia, Commissioner Johnson said, since the state made it easier to get a gun permit in 1985, the number of people authorized to carry a gun in the city has risen from 700 to 32,000.

But the police also blame lax sentences and judges who they say let suspects out on bail too easily. Here, Deputy Chief Brian O'Keefe recalled a man who was released from prison on an armed robbery conviction after two years, with five years' probation, and killed someone within three months. In Nashville, Chief Ronal W. Serpas recalled an 18-year-old who had been arrested 41 times but was out on bail when he killed a bystander in a fight over a dice game.

"We have people who've done two, three, four, five shootings who are back on the streets," said Kathleen M. O'Toole, Boston's police commissioner. "Unless we have bail reform, unless these impact players with multiple gun arrests are kept off the streets, we won't reverse this problem."


These four paragraphs say it all. The police say the reason for more homicides is more guns on the street due to more CCW permits. But they also say the criminals usually have a criminal record and/or previous convictions of crimes with a gun or homicides with a gun. Since convicted felons can not get a CCW permit their argument is blatantly illogical, false and plain stupid.

:banghead:

ElTacoGrande
February 13, 2006, 12:39 PM
A large part of the problem, the police say, is simply more guns on the streets as gun laws have loosened around the country. In Philadelphia, Commissioner Johnson said, since the state made it easier to get a gun permit in 1985, the number of people authorized to carry a gun in the city has risen from 700 to 32,000.

And of those 32,000 packing, how many committed homicides? I'm guessing zero, or very close to zero, so how exactly are they contributing to the homicide problem?

It goes on to say clearly that most of the people involved in these killings (perpetrators and victims) have criminal records and the disputes are usually drug-related.

People with criminal records aren't even allowed to touch a gun. People who are addicted to narcotics aren't allowed to possess a gun. So... hmm.

Art Eatman
February 13, 2006, 07:08 PM
Yeah, young and black. But, not mainstream black. Mainstream black isn't much different, crime-rate-wise, from mainstream white. Or any other. It's the sub-culture in the "professional poverty" areas, mostly. We've talked about this a lot, here.

Everybody seems to understand this factor except the political class. Or, assuming they actually do understand, they're either working at being politically correct ("Everybody knows" that we need to control guns). Or, they're afraid to speak out because the Jesse Jacksons would leap up and holler "Racist!" And it ain't a race thing at all. Sub-culture.

Art

Standing Wolf
February 13, 2006, 08:45 PM
A large part of the problem, the police say, is simply more guns on the streets as gun laws have loosened around the country.

Guns cause crime like cars cause drunken driving.

fedlaw
February 13, 2006, 09:22 PM
A large part of the problem, the police say, is simply more guns on the streets as gun laws have loosened around the country.
Freakonomics explains how this actually works: Criminals tend to go where the pickin's are easier. Pretty soon we'll see His Royal Highness Little Dick Daley suing states that are shall issue for knowingly causing their bad guys to pick on defenseless Illinoisians, etc.

XLMiguel
February 13, 2006, 09:34 PM
It's pretty obvious that the 'problem people' are mostly those who wouldn't be allowed to have firearms under current law. So, what does this prove [illustrate?]? "The reason wel call them 'criminals is . . . "

The vast majority of responsible gun owners aren't even on he radar here, except those who are unlucky enough to be robbed and lose thier guns to the criminal black/underground market - this is just a huge heap of socialist/statist bovine flatulence:barf:

Otherguy Overby
February 13, 2006, 10:23 PM
Yeah, young and black. But, not mainstream black. Mainstream black isn't much different, crime-rate-wise, from mainstream white. Or any other. It's the sub-culture in the "professional poverty" areas, mostly. We've talked about this a lot, here.

Everybody seems to understand this factor except the political class. Or, assuming they actually do understand, they're either working at being politically correct ("Everybody knows" that we need to control guns). Or, they're afraid to speak out because the Jesse Jacksons would leap up and holler "Racist!" And it ain't a race thing at all. Sub-culture.

Art

Zactly, Art.

I run a mailing list in SoCal which has lots of really bright liberals. They don't get it either. They label it "racism" and close their minds. Critical thinking, it is... They learned it in "school" I think. Me thinks, in these interesting times, they are in for a rude awakening not too far in the future.

boofus
February 13, 2006, 11:40 PM
Boohoo, black and hispanic people are killing each other in record numbers in the most liberal enclaves in America. I quit giving a damn a long time ago, because those are the same cities that won't actually do anything about crime.

That moron of a police chief in San Francisco wants to buy mobile libraries to roam the hoods of SF. She thinks that will lower crime better than more cops and tougher sentences. :banghead:

LAK
February 14, 2006, 05:18 AM
Culture problem; aided by organized crime masquerading as "stupid" government.
----------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

Firethorn
February 14, 2006, 07:23 AM
That moron of a police chief in San Francisco wants to buy mobile libraries to roam the hoods of SF. She thinks that will lower crime better than more cops and tougher sentences. :banghead:

Well, she's right that education tends to lower crime rates. However, seeing as how those areas often have the most expensive schools, I feel that any measures the government takes in that direction will be limited in effect until a way is found to make the occupants of the area want to learn.

In this case, raising the education bar for these areas would be a matter of generations. You'll always have the occasional sterling performer, but on average the parents have to be at least high school graduates for the kids to have a reliable chance of going to college.

Janitor
February 14, 2006, 08:18 AM
"We're not talking about a city, we're talking about this subpopulation, that's what drives everything,"
Well now. Everything makes sense to me finally.

There is a "subpopulation" that is killing each other off, so everyone in the country should give up their right to protect themselves to help this segment of their society live like normal humans rather than angry dogs.

Reality is that social reform is an even more complex topic than simpy attacking one simple constitutional ammendment. They just can't wrap their minds around the fact that there's a sub culture in their city that doesn't think the same way they do, or have the same values they do. Lord knows we have to treat everyone, including the crack dealers and cop killers, equally. To do otherwise would be tantamount to prejudice.

feedthehogs
February 14, 2006, 09:12 AM
Where's the part about how many of those shooters did have CCW permits since they seem to think the cause is relaxed gun laws and increased permits?

More propaganda for the soccer moms to digest and react at the polls.

Too bad people don't take the time to disect worthless news stories and realize CRIMINALS CAN"T GET CCW PERMITS!

Freedom of speech and bad journalism go hand in hand.

Master Blaster
February 14, 2006, 09:18 AM
In Nashville, Chief Ronal W. Serpas recalled an 18-year-old who had been arrested 41 times but was out on bail when he killed a bystander in a fight over a dice game.

"We have people who've done two, three, four, five shootings who are back on the streets," said Kathleen M. O'Toole, Boston's police commissioner. "Unless we have bail reform, unless these impact players with multiple gun arrests are kept off the streets, we won't reverse this problem."


Every single one of the folks arrested for shootings and the ones who were involved but not caught, are repeat habitual offenders. When a shooting goes down police know who the shooter is most of the time. They cant get anyone to come forward and testify, because they are either afraid or involved in the trade.

Their first offense is just usually being caught with a gun while acting as a look-out or selling drugs, they are usually about age 11 or 12 at that point. They get probation and are released to the neigborhood where they learned this behavior. The only hope for a 12 year old like this is to get him completely out of the hood, that means military or boarding school of some type.

Otherwise 85% of the kids who start this way are lost, and by the time they are 18 they are killers, professional criminals who know no other life.

Commissioneer Williams knows perfectly well that the CCW holders in Philly are not the ones committing crimes, in fact as a percentage there are more police officers arrested each year than CCW holders in Philly.
He is just appealing to the liberal constituentcy who don't know any better. Williams and the DA Lynn Abraham know perfectly well who is committing the crimes and what they have to do to stop it. It involves arrresting the criminals and giving them long long jail sentances.

One of he problems is that the police cant be everywhere, and folks in the hood who know who did it dont trust the police cause they see the criminals are back on the street before they get back from the police station making a statement.

Then they have to live in the hood with no protection from the thugs and their gang.

GTSteve03
February 14, 2006, 09:26 AM
Everybody seems to understand this factor except the political class. Or, assuming they actually do understand, they're either working at being politically correct ("Everybody knows" that we need to control guns). Or, they're afraid to speak out because the Jesse Jacksons would leap up and holler "Racist!" And it ain't a race thing at all. Sub-culture.
Or perhaps these "professional poverty" people you spoke of wouldn't even be around were it not for the woefully inept welfare laws that are currently helping to keep the politicos coffers filled with ever-increasing tax money. Why would they possibly come out against the very thing that makes them rich? :barf:

bcolorado
February 14, 2006, 09:38 AM
This affected subculture seems to be the culture of rap music. Tell us again how this music doesn't effect the young listening to it's mantra. Is this subculture a caricature of the rap scene, or is the rap scene a caricature of this subculture?
Another chicken/egg question.

Janitor
February 14, 2006, 09:40 AM
This affected subculture seems to be the culture of rap music. Tell us again how this music doesn't effect the young listening to it's mantra. Is this subculture a caricature of the rap scene, or is the rap scene a caricature of this subculture?
Another chicken/egg question.
And video games cause teenagers to shoot people in their schools.

:rolleyes:

Ryder
February 14, 2006, 09:47 AM
I almost had to defend myself for looking at a person once. I heard him walking nearby and turned my head to see who it was. Hard to believe you can be attacked for that but it's true.

I've thought some on how unreasonable this is. I've decided the answer is that they despise themselves so much they don't want others to acknowledge their existence. You disrespect them by acknowledging their existence because existence is something they don't desire.

We associate respect with politeness and manners. They don't. "Excuse me" is no longer a polite expression. I've been told by my boss to stop using it because it offends the customers. They actually complained! So I quit being polite and the complaints ceased. Looks to me like the turds in our society only feel safe taking advantage of nice guys. :fire:

Art Eatman
February 14, 2006, 11:36 AM
GTSteve03, yeah, concur. But in an Internet forum about all you can do is hit the high spots, oversimplifying. some stuff has just gotta be understood as background.

Root causes? Hey, Barnes&Noble is full of sociology books on the subject.

Create a welfare system (re-distribution of wealth system, or social transfer system, pick your label) that's hard to escape without education. Remove the competency of instilling knowledge. Ignore the hopelessness thereby engendered. Then, fail to realize that hopeless people are immune and invulnerable to the "normal" standards and mores of the greater society. Sub-culture. Created by government. Descending spiral into crash-landing.

Art

Otherguy Overby
February 14, 2006, 01:34 PM
Before LBJ burdened us with his "Great Society" whites could generally go into black areas in relative safety. Harlem comes to mind. It used to be NYC's hottest night spot. There were black doctors, lawyers, bankers and everything. There were complete black families, civic leaders and everything, a society, not a subculture. IOW, there was commerce. Sure there was predjudice then, but there still is now.

When socialism and welfare became PC and the mission of the left, there was no longer any reason for the less successful blacks to hide or contain their hatred. Infact, their situation became much worse. So white commerce quit coming to black neighborhoods, successful blacks left and government dependance became widespread.

AJ Dual
February 14, 2006, 01:51 PM
Milwaukee is a strange case.

What I think we may be seeing in part are the first true withdrawl pangs after our famous "W2" welfare reforms went into place, about the same time as the Clinton reforms went in effect in the mid/late 90's.

It's a workfare system, where you have to report for jobs, or training, or you get cut off. There's still AFDC etc. but the main state welfare has been completely overhauled. Wisconsin also has a heavy amount of privitization in it's poverty agencies, and many are rife with corruption. Oftentimes self-annointed leaders from the inner city have headed up these organizations, only to funnel the money to themselves, or improper pet projects. (In one famous case, a woman re-directed poverty funds allocated to her "non-profit" org, to buy thousands of cell phones and have them shipped to Nigeria… WTH? )

It may sound heartless, but even with the inneficiency and corruption, I'd rather see the tax money be scammed away to a few individuals under our current reformed welfare/workfare system than the checks "reach the street" and foster more dependancy like under the old system. It's like a mid level drug dealer snorting all the cocaine for himself. At least the drugs didn't reach the street...

Otherguy Overby, you are absolutely right about LBJ. The effects of welfare on the black community are so devestating, and how it came right on the heels of their successes in the civil rights movment, that one almost has to wonder if it was intentional. Just as you say, black areas of our cities used to be draws for both white and black enjoy music, jazz & blues etc., with a strong professional class. Before the 1960's, black america used to have a lower out of wedlock birth rate, lower divorce rate, and a higher church attendance rate than white America did.

Seeing as it took 40+ years of LBJ's "Great Society" to completely undo the legacy of the civil rights movment, and destroy the urban black community everywhere, it'll probably take just as long for reformed and cut welfare to fix it, creating self-sufficient generations again.

The other two issues with Milwaukee are that it's so segregated, and there is a very small black middle-class. Much moreso than any other compaible city.

The northwest side of town is where almost all these murders take place, and it's not spreading anywhere else. Since the violence isn't spilling over into the other parts of Milwaukee, there's lots of "talk", but the level of widespread outrage to realy do something about the murder rate never realy materializes here. Save for the smaller Hispanic/Asian "secondary core" to the south of Milwaukee's downtown, the city and surrounding burbs are very, very, very, clean and safe as compared to similar or larger cities in the Midwest.

And unlike some larger cities and urban areas like New York, Washington D.C., or Atlanta, that have a more robust middle class that works in the professional or government sectors, Milwaukee's is notably smaller. The black middle class that we do have tends to avoid the suburbs because they're so segregated it makes them uncomfortable. So they either "hide" in pockets of safety in the black inner city and go unnoticed, or they just up and leave for those cities that do have a sustainable black middle class. This widens the discrepancy between black and white Milwaukee, and depresses the community even further.

Otherguy Overby
February 14, 2006, 07:33 PM
Otherguy Overby, you are absolutely right about LBJ. The effects of welfare on the black community are so devestating, and how it came right on the heels of their successes in the civil rights movment, that one almost has to wonder if it was intentional. Just as you say, black areas of our cities used to be draws for both white and black enjoy music, jazz & blues etc., with a strong professional class. Before the 1960's, black america used to have a lower out of wedlock birth rate, lower divorce rate, and a higher church attendance rate than white America did. Thank you!



Seeing as it took 40+ years of LBJ's "Great Society" to completely undo the legacy of the civil rights movment, and destroy the urban black community everywhere, it'll probably take just as long for reformed and cut welfare to fix it, creating self-sufficient generations again.


Seems most everyone thinks people are stupid. Some are, but if one can leave everyone alone, they do seem to work things out for themselves. Racism and prejudice was on the way out in the 60s. (Just like slavery was in the 1800s) If only Lincoln and his sponsors could have left things alone. He needed to be shot... sooner. If only LBJ and the government could have left this alone, I wonder how things would be now.

Now, with it's track record of failure the government just keeps trying more social engineering. We are in for interesting times.

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