TX Law question


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Drizzt
February 13, 2006, 07:36 PM
OK, I'll try to explain this as best as I can, but I'm still a bit confused by the whole thing. As I was dropping off some laundry today, I parked in front of a local liquor store. I happened to notice that the store had the '51%' sign in the window, prohibiting CHL holders from carrying on the premises. To my understanding, that particular sign is only used when the business in question derives more than 51% of its income from the sale and CONSUMPTION of alcohol. Of course, right next the the sign was the other sign that you normally see in liquor stores, that the consumption of alcohol or beer on the premises was illegal. I saw no other signs, particularly the 30.06 sign, prohibiting lawful carry. If someone is using the 51% sign to prohibit carry, but they do not meet the requirements of that sort of business, is it stil lillegal to carry on the premises?

I know that the whole thing is convoluted and crazy, but I was just wondering. It figures that a store in the Westlake area would do this, though.

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Art Eatman
February 13, 2006, 07:45 PM
Sounds to me like just a wee tad of terminal ignorance, you should pardon my sarcasm. After all, it's West Lake Hills, ain't it? That area was a lot more fun before Emmet Shelton started subdividing it.

Ever been on Mt. Larsen, where all those antenna towers are? I killed a pretty nice buck there, in 1951. I was supposed to have been doing homework, of course...

:), Art

Nitrogen
February 13, 2006, 08:09 PM
I saw no other signs, particularly the 30.06 sign, prohibiting lawful carry. If someone is using the 51% sign to prohibit carry, but they do not meet the requirements of that sort of business, is it stil lillegal to carry on the premises?

I know that the whole thing is convoluted and crazy, but I was just wondering. It figures that a store in the Westlake area would do this, though.


My understanding of the 51% signs are only for on premise consumption. Unless the store wants you drinking there, the 51% sign is applied illegally. Call the TABC (Texas Alcoholic Beverage Comission) as they get really upset when people misuse the signs.

To be on the safe side, i wouldn't carry anywhere I saw a 51% sign, even if I thought it was placed illegally. Same goes for 30.06 signs; it's just trouble I don't want or need.

auschip
February 13, 2006, 08:16 PM
OK, I'll try to explain this as best as I can, but I'm still a bit confused by the whole thing. As I was dropping off some laundry today, I parked in front of a local liquor store. I happened to notice that the store had the '51%' sign in the window, prohibiting CHL holders from carrying on the premises. To my understanding, that particular sign is only used when the business in question derives more than 51% of its income from the sale and CONSUMPTION of alcohol. Of course, right next the the sign was the other sign that you normally see in liquor stores, that the consumption of alcohol or beer on the premises was illegal. I saw no other signs, particularly the 30.06 sign, prohibiting lawful carry. If someone is using the 51% sign to prohibit carry, but they do not meet the requirements of that sort of business, is it stil lillegal to carry on the premises?

I know that the whole thing is convoluted and crazy, but I was just wondering. It figures that a store in the Westlake area would do this, though.

Sounds like the liquor store near the Albertson's off of 2244 & 360. If so, they are the definition of "often wrong, never unsure."

Azrael256
February 13, 2006, 08:46 PM
The law states that you cannot carry in an establishment which derives more than half of their income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for on premises consumption. The law further requires such an establishment to post the specific 51% sign. The law says it is illegal to carry in a bar, the law does not say it is illegal to carry past the 51% sign. I can put the 51% sign on the front door of my dry cleaning business, but it doesn't make me a bar.

For a private establishment not otherwise regulated (basically anything that is not a bar), they have to post the specific 30.06 sign (or otherwise directly notify you) to prevent you from entering the building with your weapon. No signage other than that which is spelled out in the statute is sufficient notice, and the 51% sign does not contain the necessary language.

The only time the 51% sign is enforceable in an establishment which may not actually be a 51% business is when the establishment has a liquor license, but the TABC has not yet made the determination as to whether or not the establishment actually derives 51% of their income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption.

IANAL, YMMV.

CentralTexas
February 13, 2006, 09:49 PM
As I was dropping off some laundry today, I parked in front of a local liquor store. I happened to notice that the store had the '51%' sign in the window, prohibiting CHL holders from carrying on the premises. To my understanding, that particular sign is only used when the business in question derives more than 51% of its income from the sale and CONSUMPTION of alcohol.

The sign is in error, I 100% guarantee. Contact the TABC Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission as Nitrogen said -it's HQ is here in Austin and let them know. THEN follow up with whoever you talk to.
CT

answerguy
February 13, 2006, 10:49 PM
My understanding of the 51% signs are only for on premise consumption. Unless the store wants you drinking there, the 51% sign is applied illegally. Call the TABC (Texas Alcoholic Beverage Comission) as they get really upset when people misuse the signs.

To be on the safe side, i wouldn't carry anywhere I saw a 51% sign, even if I thought it was placed illegally. Same goes for 30.06 signs; it's just trouble I don't want or need.
Great attitude, certain to protect the staus quo. I mean why stick your neck out for principle?

Brad Johnson
February 14, 2006, 11:59 AM
Problem #1 - a lot of businesses simply don't know, or care to know, the techinically important aspects of their required signage. They simply slap up the first sign they see and call it good.

Problem #2 - there are TABC agents that don't know the difference ( :uhoh: ). I have talked to more than one that was adamant about signage issues I knew to be in specific error.

Brad

Drizzt
February 14, 2006, 12:00 PM
Auschip - yep, it's the liquor store near the Albertson's right off Bee Caves and Capitol of Texas.

Bartholomew Roberts
February 14, 2006, 01:07 PM
Azrael256's understanding of the law agrees with mine 100%.

To be on the safe side, i wouldn't carry anywhere I saw a 51% sign, even if I thought it was placed illegally.

I'd also add that it appears that absence of a 51% sign isn't always a guarantee either. While TABC regulations require a business to post a 51% sign if they derive more than 51% of their revenue from on-premises alcohol consumption, you can still be charged with Unlawful Carry if they fail to post a sign.

I wouldn't worry about it too much in a Chili's or some place like that where you could make a pretty good argument that you had no reasonable basis to realize you were violating the law; but I wouldn't assume that just because there is no 51% sign, your local bar is OK to hang out in.

ball3006
February 14, 2006, 03:00 PM
posted in liquor stores quite a bit lately. One store that I buy from has the sign posted inside the store. The premises are the inside of the store, not outside in the parking lot or sidewalk. The sign, according to Texas Concealed Handgun Laws, PC 46.035 (1), is for on site sale for "consumption" of alcoholic beverages. Unless there has been some recient change that I am unaware of.......The TSRA newsletter is usually current on law changes and I have not seen anything about a change of the 51 law......chris3

waterhouse
February 14, 2006, 03:31 PM
I'd continue to carry at that liquor store, but I wouldn't go notifying anyone. If you call to report it, they might get a nice visitor who says "This sign is not correct. If you want people to legally not carry here, you need to use this sign."

If you report it they might have a 30.06 sign next time. Thier ignorance is my bliss.

I also agree with Mr. Roberts on the 51% issue. The way it was explained to me at my CHL class was that if you got caught carrying in a bar, you would be charged with carrying in a 51% establishment and the bar would be charged with not having the propper signage. The bar's mistake doesn't protect you from prosecution. This is what we were told. I've asked a lawyer friend to do a quick search for an actual case and at this point he hasn't found anything on the matter.

AirForceShooter
February 14, 2006, 03:57 PM
Kiddies:
isn't it CONCEALED????

AFS

Drizzt
February 15, 2006, 10:23 AM
I'd continue to carry at that liquor store, but I wouldn't go notifying anyone. If you call to report it, they might get a nice visitor who says "This sign is not correct. If you want people to legally not carry here, you need to use this sign."

If you report it they might have a 30.06 sign next time. Thier ignorance is my bliss.

That's kind of why I haven't mentioned it to anyone at the store. The other side, though, is maybe they mistakenly think that they are required to post that sign, and are unintentionally offending CHL holders without meaning to do so. I've spoken to the manager of the store regarding other topics, and he seems to be a pretty helpful sort.

Deavis
February 15, 2006, 02:08 PM
you can still be charged with Unlawful Carry if they fail to post a sign.

There is nothing in the penal code section that covers this offense (46.035 (b)(1)) that mentions notification (effiective notice) as it does for other sub-offenses in (g). I'm not sure they could prove criminal intent for a felony if you had no idea that it could be 51%, i.e. a bowling alley or pool hall. How do you know?

Azrael256
February 15, 2006, 03:24 PM
I'm not sure they could prove criminal intent for a felony if you had no idea that it could be 51%, i.e. a bowling alley or pool hall. No, they really couldn't prove intent if it were a bowling alley that failed to post. In a case like that, you'd have a pretty good defense, and I'll bet you'd get off with a stern warning to be more careful. You just have to be careful and pay attention to avoid the "shoulda' known" situation. If you walk into an establishment where everybody has a beer and the kitchen only turns out hot wings and pretzels, you're probably in a bar. The sign doesn't matter. It's just a courtesy that TABC extends to CHL holders.

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