Baltimore Police are Under-Reporting Crime, as a Matter of Policy!!


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Helmetcase
February 14, 2006, 11:15 AM
Nothing encourages crime like letting criminals know that the crime they committed probably won't even be reported by the police!!

Link. (http://progunprogressive.com/?p=78)

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GTSteve03
February 14, 2006, 11:24 AM
Cue LawDog and RealGun in 5... 4... 3...

I'm sure this was all due to the politicos in Baltimore and nothing to do with the actual police force... :rolleyes:

Helmetcase
February 14, 2006, 11:29 AM
Cue LawDog and RealGun in 5... 4... 3...

I'm sure this was all due to the politicos in Baltimore and nothing to do with the actual police force... :rolleyes:

That's exactly what's going on. At the behest of their political masters (Mayor O'Malley and Commissioner Hamm), crime has been under-reported as a matter of course. This isn't something the rank and file were doing (and if that's what you were implying I was saying...did you even bother to read the link? If you're gonna roll your eyes at me, better read up first), it was something that was clearly orchestrated by Hamm and O'Malley to make the problem look better than it was.

No accident that O'Malley is running for governor.

GTSteve03
February 14, 2006, 12:01 PM
That's exactly what's going on. At the behest of their political masters (Mayor O'Malley and Commissioner Hamm), crime has been under-reported as a matter of course. This isn't something the rank and file were doing (and if that's what you were implying I was saying...did you even bother to read the link? If you're gonna roll your eyes at me, better read up first), it was something that was clearly orchestrated by Hamm and O'Malley to make the problem look better than it was.
How can this not be something the rank and file are doing? They are the ones who are filling out (or not, in this case) the police reports for citizens, and threatening them with filing false claims.

Did you even read the link? Here, let's have a quote:

Let’s be clear, here–the Baltimore Police are A) schnookering the public and B) committing a crime. When people are robbed, shot, attacked, whatever, and the police do not take a report, they’re committing a crime. Period.

Just because the orders came from higher up, isn't an excuse. I seem to remember a few war-crimes trials where this defense was shot down...

Helmetcase
February 14, 2006, 12:12 PM
How can this not be something the rank and file are doing? The political pressure to do this is coming from the top. Yeah, yeah, just following orders isn't much of a defense--but let's be honest, the fish rots from the head down and this represents a failure of leadership.

They are the ones who are filling out (or not, in this case) the police reports for citizens, and threatening them with filing false claims.Yup, but in this case the leadership is not only not admonishing them for doing it, they're actually approving of and encouraging this practice. Publicly.

Did you even read the link? Here, let's have a quote:
Not only did I read it, I wrote it. Check my signature there, Sherlock. ;)

Seems to me you came here to pick a fight. There's nothing to fight about here.


Just because the orders came from higher up, isn't an excuse. I seem to remember a few war-crimes trials where this defense was shot down...
We can agree there, but there have to be ramifications for leadership.

GTSteve03
February 14, 2006, 12:16 PM
We can agree there, but there have to be ramifications for leadership.
Absolutely. And you're right about the fish rotting from the head-down, but I felt like you were totally ignoring the police force to focus all the attack on the mayor.

I don't want any leadership to get off scot-free but I don't want that happening to the people who actually did the dirty work either.

Sergeant Bob
February 14, 2006, 12:22 PM
On a Baltimore Radio Show, Duncan Dons the Mantle of Crime Fighter

By John Wagner
Friday, February 10, 2006; Page B05


"Yeah, and I don't either," responded , the erstwhile Baltimore police commissioner who, after a six-month stint in prison, launched a radio show.

Then they turned to a topic both were eager to discuss: crime.

[b]Duncan, a Democratic candidate for governor, used yesterday's one-hour appearance on WHFS-FM not only to broaden his exposure in Charm City but to preview his plan for an issue that has vexed his primary rival, Baltimore Mayor Martin O'Malley, even as violent crime has dropped in his city.

Prompted by Norris, Duncan said he would use state money to help put 1,000 additional cops on the beat.

"We need a Maryland version of COPS," Duncan said, referring to a national program championed by President Bill Clinton that helped Norris expand Baltimore's police force.

Norris had just finished telling listeners that "my passion has always been crime-fighting" and that progress had stalled since his departure in 2002.

"If you pull out Baltimore, the state looks kind of safe," Norris said. "You put Baltimore in, it's a very dangerous place."

Norris left the city to become superintendent of the state police but was later convicted and sent to federal prison for using money from a city police fund to buy things such as Victoria's Secret lingerie for women he dated. He and O'Malley, who once seemed inseparable, are now estranged.

As the show was wrapping up, O'Malley was in Annapolis, appearing before a bank of television cameras to lend support to legislation that would ban assault weapons.

Duncan, meanwhile, was using Norris's program to talk about his leadership during the Washington-area sniper shootings of 2002. It was a rare episode that focused attention on crime in Montgomery County, which experienced only 19 homicides last year, compared with Baltimore's 269.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/09/AR2006020902062.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

One might think Norris has an agenda here, supporting Duncan, who happens to be running for governor too. One might also think Norris has a credibility problem, considering his past (ahem) indiscretions.

His friend Duncan's touting his leadership during the Washington sniper shootings does not inspire much confidence in his abilities.

Spot77
February 14, 2006, 12:23 PM
Baltimore has been reporting their stats to the FBI differently than any other city in America. There's been proven discrepencies in the data that's reported and what was actually found during a recent audit.

You can bet a donut on it - Mayor Martin O'Malley wants the Govenor's Mansion and will do anything to get it.

Norton
February 14, 2006, 12:41 PM
is the same Doug Duncan who continued to look for the mythical white van during the sniper case in spite of eyewitness accounts that it was two individuals in a sedan.

Glad to hear he's on the job here :rolleyes:

buzz_knox
February 14, 2006, 12:47 PM
Not really surprising. University/college police forces have been doing this for years. The administration didn't want the parents of prospective/current students to know what the real stats were.

agricola
February 14, 2006, 01:12 PM
It sort of sounds like they are checking to establish whether a crime has actually happened, and reminding the "victim" that making false reports is a crime too (especially when combined with insurance claims):

Apparently scads of people have been robbed, mugged, had their homes burglarized, etc. and the police are either not taking reports or actually threatening the victims with accusations that they’re trying to file a false report.

I dunno what the situation is over in the US, but over here the current wave of mobile phone "crime" is strongly suspected to be driven by the fact that some insurers will only give a replacement phone if its stolen and not lost. Research has been conducted in several force areas and it suggests that between 13-25% of reports are false, with 100,000 false reports across the country. In term of overall crime that is down to false reports on mobile phones alone, thats about 2.5% of all crime in London:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3020108.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/4407358.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/dorset/4120096.stm

LawDog
February 14, 2006, 01:19 PM
Cue LawDog and RealGun in 5... 4... 3...

What, exactly, does that mean?

Considering that Ed Norris is a convicted felon, got fired from his Superintendant of State Police job for misappropriating Baltimore city funds, was indicted for violating Federal tax laws, and served Federal prison time for public corruption, conspiring to misuse police discretionary funds, and lying on is tax returns, you've got to admit that the source might have a bit of bias going.

Since this is the kind of story that 60 Minutes producers pray for, are there any articles/investigations on this from anyone else?

LawDog

Coronach
February 14, 2006, 01:33 PM
Furthermore, if the cops are doing it for their own benefit- hey, wait a minute! What benefit? What could they possibly have to gain from doing this, besides having one less report to take? It's not like they get more money if reported crime goes down (heck, a true cynic will note that they're more likely to get more money if it goes up).

Sounds like someone is searching for a campaign issue, and has latched on to Bawlmer's admitted reporting errata and is trying to simultaneously make it larger than it is and novel.

Mike

00-Guy
February 14, 2006, 02:12 PM
One very important thing to remember: Since MOM (O'Malley) took office in 1999, there have been 4 police commissioners. Hamm is but the latest. Also if I remember correctly there has been a near complete shakeup of the senior staff. The only constant is MOM and middle management. I am not MOM's defender, but if it came from on high, I suspect that it could not have been kept secret for this long.

IANAL, but it could be that several types of crime could be under reported. Property crime either theft or damage where no police report is needed for insurance purposes. I do not know how assaults could be under reported.

Unbelieveable numbers (40% reduction) added to the shakeups in commissioners, make a planned program of under reporting make it tough for me to swallow. I suspect that things are just as bad now as they were in 1999 (and earlier).

Also did anyone notice the increase in the population of Baltimore City? No, I didn't think so since it continues with flight to the suburbs. Why, bad schools, high crime, and no jobs in the city.

fourays2
February 14, 2006, 02:17 PM
everything will be fine as soon as they get those assualt weapons off the street:rolleyes:

Archangel
February 14, 2006, 02:32 PM
Here's a link to a Baltimore Sun article on this issue.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/politics/bal-md.crime14feb14001543,0,3252671.story

Helmetcase
February 14, 2006, 02:51 PM
Considering that Ed Norris is a convicted felon, got fired from his Superintendant of State Police job for misappropriating Baltimore city funds, was indicted for violating Federal tax laws, and served Federal prison time for public corruption, conspiring to misuse police discretionary funds, and lying on is tax returns, you've got to admit that the source might have a bit of bias going.

Since this is the kind of story that 60 Minutes producers pray for, are there any articles/investigations on this from anyone else?

LawDog
Yes, there are. Ed Norris was just talking about a news story that was run by WBAL TV here in Baltimore. This isn't just being made up. It's happening, and it's scary. http://www.thewbalchannel.com/news/7020235/detail.html

Sounds like someone is searching for a campaign issue, and has latched on to Bawlmer's admitted reporting errata and is trying to simultaneously make it larger than it is and novel.Read the story. You're wrong. When the police don't take reports when people are shot, robbed, etc. that is indeed novel. It's also criminal.

But don't just take it from me, take it from this guy, who ought to know:
Doug Ward, a retired Maryland State Police commander who spent years overseeing crime reporting by local departments, now teaches police leadership at Johns Hopkins University.

"From what we do here there, it certainly raises a lot of questions in my mind," Ward said. "It's highly unusual to say it's unfounded when you have a victim in the hospital with an injury. Put it that way, it's highly unusual."Heh, no kidding Doug.

What's at work is here is O'Malley's under a ton of pressure in the race against Ehrlich, and he's resorting to some unsavory tactics, pure and simple.

Helmetcase
February 14, 2006, 02:57 PM
This is great, cause up till last November I lived on Charles and Heath, about 100yds away from this (one block).

One night last November, nearly a dozen calls were made to 911 concerning a shooting on a south Baltimore corner.

911 Call
Caller: "Police, right now, somebody's firing a gun on Light and Heath street."
Operator: "How many gunshots did you hear?"
Caller: "Six."

Police responded and located the intended target of the gunman: a man who wasn't hurt. The incident would seem to fit the definition of an aggravated assault.

According to federal crime reporting guidelines, such an assault includes an unlawful attack accompanied by the use of a weapon for the purpose of inflicting severe injury. The guidelines make clear it is not necessary that injury result for an aggravated assault to occur.

But in fact, Miller reported, police wrote no report at all of the south Baltimore shooting. Instead, officers lumped it in with an armed robbery that had occurred earlier that night a couple of blocks away.

Police Radio
Officer: "These are all in reference to the one call, sir."

"That's not unusual," Hamm said.

The commissioner said officers do combine one incident with another in a practice called duplicating.

"How often does one incident get duplicated to another incident?" Miller asked.

"What we believe, once we go out to the scene is that they may be related," Hamm said.

"Do you know, to this moment, that they were related?" Miller asked.

"No, I don't know to this moment that they were related," Hamm said.

So, instead of two crimes that night in south Baltimore, just one was written up, and the report on the robbery makes no mention of the shooting.

Ward, the former state police commander, said the importance of accurate crime reporting cannot be understated.

"Without those reports, you can't connect suspects to different crimes. It's the fundamental foundation of how we operate in policing in this country," Ward said.

Unbelievable. That's clearly part of a systematic effort to under-report crime for political reasons.

Waitone
February 14, 2006, 03:06 PM
Nothing new here, people. Move along.

Why is anyone surprised or outraged that government lies. Collection of statistics is biased because so much is at stake in terms of grants, funding, business, etc. Little secret is the federales have been juicing federal economic statistics since mid-way though Clinton's second term and continues to date uncorrected.

What is surprising is there are people who actually think governmental statistics are impartial and accurate.

LawDog
February 14, 2006, 03:06 PM
Whoops, hang on here. This article y'all linked to:
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/loc...,3252671.story

States, and I quote:Speaking in the basement of an East Baltimore church, Duncan, a Democrat, said his opponent artificially inflated crime numbers for the year before he took office to make his record look more impressive.

Now, did he artificially inflate crime numbers, or did he order officers not to report crimes?

Either one or the other, guys.

LawDog

Helmetcase
February 14, 2006, 03:09 PM
Either one or the other, guys.

LawDog
I'd take what his opponent Duncan says with a grain of salt in that instance, but I don't see why it's either/or. Cook the books upwards for the year before you take office when you're in power and have the numbers in front of you, and then every year there after fudge the numbers downward to make it look like you're doing a bang up job fighting crime.

Hey, if you're gonna cheat, might as well do it both ways to increase the effect.

LawDog
February 14, 2006, 03:35 PM
Agreed, but you'd think that the quoted article would mention both, yes?

The only thing it mentions about statistics, is the accusation that they've been inflated, but then points out that the statistics are still being audited, said audit to be completed in August.

I'd take what his opponent Duncan says with a grain of salt in that instance,

Ah.

*scratch, scratch*

Should we take this quote (http://blog.washingtonpost.com/annapolis/2006/02/cooking_the_books.html#6842) with a grain of salt, too?
Montgomery County Executive Douglas M. Duncan (D) today accused Baltimore Mayor Martin O'Malley of tinkering with crime statistics to make his city appear safer than it really is.

LawDog

Helmetcase
February 14, 2006, 03:43 PM
Agreed, but you'd think that the quoted article would mention both, yes?
One would think. My guess is that the hooks are already in MOM pretty well (this story has national implications, he's considered a rising star in the Dem party, think Bill Clinton in 1988) on this story, no need to make it look worse I guess :).

Ah.

*scratch, scratch*

Should we take this quote (http://blog.washingtonpost.com/annapolis/2006/02/cooking_the_books.html#6842) with a grain of salt, too?


LawDog
Probably. It is, after all, an election year, and Duncan continues to not impress me. The funny thing is he's a gun grabber (look at the letter I sent him today on my site if you care to) who still doesn't get it--the police are actively under-reporting crime at the behest of their political masters, we're the most violent state in the union outside Louisiana, but you can't carry a gun to protect yourself.

Unreal.

What we shouldn't take with a grain of salt is the $%*&^%! Police Commissioner freely admitting that this is the way they're tabulating crime stats and filing reports. This ain't no joke--as besmirched as Norris' record is thanks to giving his groupies Victoria's Secret outings on the company tab, even he was shocked at how much of his work had been undone.

Spot77
February 14, 2006, 03:53 PM
Ah, should we take this quote with a grain of salt, too?

Quote:
Montgomery County Executive Douglas M. Duncan (D) today accused Baltimore Mayor Martin O'Malley of tinkering with crime statistics to make his city appear safer than it really is.



Extract it from the current argument, and YES, you should take EVERYTHING from Doug Duncan's mouth with a grain of salt.

And a few shots of tequilla. It'll make it more believable. ;)

pcf
February 14, 2006, 04:34 PM
MOM gets a pass for just about everything in the media since he's announced plans to unseat "Mini-me Bush", Gov. Robert Ehrlich.

Taken from table 8 of the FBI UCR, for Baltmore (note that Table 8 does not contain statistic for Baltimore, 1999). Tables are listed by type of crime, then year, number of crime, crime per 100k. The final row is the percent difference between 2000 and 2004, this does not take into account years 2001-2003. Nation and Maryland numbers are from 2004. Draw your own conclusions. Can't stop people from killing each other, but somehow manage to reduce reported rapes by 50%, and taught people to keep their hands to themselves.

Population
Nation __ 293,655,404
Maryland_5,558,058
2004 __ 634,279
2003 __ 644,544
2002 __ 671,028
2001 __ 660,826
2000 __ 647,955
2000-04 __ -2.1%

Violent Crime
Nation __ 1,367,009 __ 475.8
Maryland __ 38,932 __ 700.5
2004 __ 11,667 __ 1,839.4
2003 __ 11,183 __ 1,735.0
2002 __ 13,789 __ 2,054.9
2001 __ 14,799 __ 2,239.5
2000 __ 16,033 __ 2,469.8
2000-04 -27.1% -25.5%

Murder and Non-Negligent Homocide
Nation __ 16,137 __ 5.5
Maryland __ 521 __ 9.4
2004 __ 276 __ 43.5
2003 __ 270 __ 41.9
2002 __ 253 __ 37.7
2001 __ 256 __ 38.7
2000 __ 261 __ 40.3
2000-04 +5.7% +7.9%

Forcible Rape
Nation __ 94,635 __ 32.2
Maryland __ 1,316 __ 23.7
2004 __ 182 __ 28.7
2003 __ 204 __ 31.6
2002 __ 178 __ 26.5
2001 __ 196 __ 44.8
2000 __ 366 __ 56.5
2000-04 -50.2% -49.2%

Robbery
Nation __ 414,235 __ 136.7
Maryland __ 12,761 __ 229.6
2004 __ 4,050 __ 638.5
2003 __ 4,339 __ 637.2
2002 __ 4,714 __ 702.5
2001 __ 5,747 __ 869.7
2000 __ 6,613 __ 1,020.6
2000-04 -38.8% -37.4%

Aggravated Assault
Nation __ 120,374 __ 220.6
Maryland __ 24,334 __ 437.8
2004 __ 7159 __ 1128
2003 __ 6370 __ 988.3
2002 __ 8644 __ 1228.2
2001 __ 8500 __ 1286.3
2000 __ 8763 __ 1352.4
2000-04 -18.3% -16.5%

LawDog
February 14, 2006, 05:00 PM
we're the most violent state in the union outside Louisiana,

New Orleans and it's corrupt PD artificially raised Louisana's violent crime rate, if I remember correctly.

Now, I'm starting to get a whiff of corruption from Baltimore PD.

I gotta wonder:

Does police corruption lead to more violent cities, or do violent cities lead to corrupt police? Chicken or the egg?

Glad I don't work out that way.

LawDog

Waitone
February 14, 2006, 05:07 PM
The latest out of Charlotte would be laughable if it weren't so serious. Murders up 40% in one year. Six child murders in 6 weeks. Gang membership up 50% in one year yet the solution to the obvious problem is community service. Governments have an inherent incentive to lie about their own performance.

Turkey Creek
February 14, 2006, 06:41 PM
I think this is standard proceedure in many localities- St Louis had a big to do last year about under reporting sex crimes- Reports were "lost" and somehow "fell through the cracks"- Has it been corrected?- Your guess is as good as mine- The Nazi Propaganda Ministry would be proud-

pcf
February 14, 2006, 06:52 PM
I think this is standard proceedure in many localities- St Louis had a big to do last year about under reporting sex crimes- Reports were "lost" and somehow "fell through the cracks"- Has it been corrected?- Your guess is as good as mine- The Nazi Propaganda Ministry would be proud-

Sex crimes are by far and away the easiest crimes to under report. If one wants to file a report about a sex crime all they have to do is go to a local precinct, tell the desk sergeant, get the form, and fill out the report. If that isn't the the most humiliating experience ever, it comes in at number two.

Hypnogator
February 14, 2006, 11:04 PM
Not really news, here. I got interviewed a few years ago by the Philadelphia Inquirer for a story they were doing on Philly police underreporting rapes and sex crimes. Mostly about clear attempted rapes being reported as simple assaults, or just being s**tcanned altogether. Can't have the public (especially the tourists) think things are dangerous here, can we? :barf:

CrazyIrishman
February 14, 2006, 11:36 PM
Right now on channel 11 in Baltimore they are talking about the discrepancy of crime numbers and reports,etc...


Its MOST interesting!

Coronach
February 15, 2006, 06:15 AM
Read the story. You're wrong. When the police don't take reports when people are shot, robbed, etc. that is indeed novel. It's also criminal.You misunderstand my point. I'm saying that, if true, this has probably been going on for some time, with the commisioner and/or incumbent mayor moving the numbers in their favor and/or the challenger accusing him of doing the same. It's very hard to get a good idea of what is going on when both parties have axes to grind and the facts themselves are in dispute. I'm not dismissing the impropriety of the suppression of crime data, if it occurred. However, having a politician lobbing bombs and producing a few (possibly isolated) cases does not prove, as is implied by the thread title, a conspiracy to under or over-report crimes.

Could this be happening? Sure, but it really makes me scratch my head and wonder why. The benefit to the mayor is obvious, but the benefit to the police department is less so. Quid pro quo arrangements like "you keep the numbers down and good things will happen to your budget" could exist, but keeping them hush-hush is very problematic. If I were looking to tinker with the numbers, I'd try to do it well above the level of street cop and dispatch- that requires a lot of co-conspirators.

"Relating" runs is a must-do for the police. Failure to do this will result in artificially inflated numbers. The run in question (relating an agg assault to a robbery) is curious, but hardly impossible. Many, many times we get a shots-fired call, then a robbery call, and a long while later you have someone finally decide that the hole in his leg is not going to heal itself, so he calls 911. So, do you have 1 shots-fired, 1 robbery, and 1 shooting? Probably not- it's pne incident. You probably have one entry into NIBRS or UCR or whatever reporting method you're using, provided you can link them all up logically. It sounds like they're saying the cops didn't do that in the run in question. However, you'd have to look at the report itself to see how it was (or wasn't) linked, and they are a weebit sketchy on the details.

Linking incidents, if done properly is not suppression of crime statistics. Note the caveat- like anything else, you have to do it properly. For instance, if the robbery report actually makes no mention of the guy who was shot-at, that's an error (at the very least). However, you'd have to read the robbery report to see.

As to the rest, it is very common for the police to not take reports when the so-called victims are uncooperative. While this might seem like suppression of crime data (and it probably goes against dept. policy), it is often less cut and dried than one might think. If you show up and someone is injured, but no one wants help from the poh-leece, it is, at the very least, unclear what report you should take. Was it a robbery? Was it an assault? Domestic? What happened? Were weapons used? If so, what weapons? Is this guy the victim, or merely the loser out of a mutual assault? Not taking the report is probably no worse for statistics than taking the wrong one, even though most PDs have the policy of taking what limited info you have and filing the report with it.

In truth, reading over the incidents in that article, it sounds like the cops were being lazy more than anything else and the Dept. needs to re-iterate its report-taking policy to them. :scrutiny:

Mike

Geno
February 15, 2006, 06:40 AM
The statistics are so stinking warped on our campus that it's shocking. Forget that "Campus Security" is non-working oxymoron, it's truly dangerous. People walk around with a false sense of "security"

Last year a student was beaten nearly to death with a tire iron and other weapons (by a group of about 13). The "security officers" stood around and did NOTHING! The group left campus after being satisfied the victim had learned his lesson. Ten minutes later, they returned for round 2 of the lesson--probably thought the victim's newly acquired brain injury would have led to short-term memory problems and that they better repeat so he would either remember, or be certain to forget. Round 2, the "campus security" did NOTHING! When the Dir. of Student Housing reported this (she was one of my grad. students) she was fired for "insubordination"!?

Yet, consider the facts. In spite of this arguably know or alter information, we on Christian campuses can NOT carry a weapon. I ask "Why the He(cK) not!?!?!?!?!?" If campus insecurity can't protect me, or won't, at least give me a waiver to carry!

Anyone, and I mean ANYONE (politician, law enforcement, clerical, other) who is directly involved or even implicit with perpetuating the misrepresentation of the statistics should be prosecuted, and if convicted, fired!

But think about it, if the politicos can under-report crime, they can say, "See--no mo' bad-guys--'ou don't need no big--bad guns! God be good sheeple".

Doc2005

RealGun
February 15, 2006, 06:54 AM
Cue LawDog and RealGun in 5... 4... 3...

I'm sure this was all due to the politicos in Baltimore and nothing to do with the actual police force... :rolleyes:

Yeah, really. This article and thread are based upon a single fact ("but heard the clips on WHFS of him saying that not taking reports when complainants aren’t overly cooperative became SOP"). Never mind examining what it means when someone is not "overly cooperative" and whether that becomes a report to be treated seriously.

Spiphel Rike
February 15, 2006, 07:37 AM
Yet, consider the facts. In spite of this arguably know or alter information, we on Christian campuses can NOT carry a weapon. I ask "Why the He(cK) not!?!?!?!?!?" If campus insecurity can't protect me, or won't, at least give me a waiver to carry!
Doc2005

carry anyway? concealed means concealed. Consider an alternative to a firearm, improvise, adapt and overcome. Your campus security does sound atrocious though, what happened with that whole incident? were there convictions or anything?

If I was you, and I'm not, but if I was, i'd do something to tick off those campus cops for being such useless failures of human beings.

Helmetcase
February 15, 2006, 10:04 AM
Yeah, really. This article and thread are based upon a single fact ("but heard the clips on WHFS of him saying that not taking reports when complainants aren’t overly cooperative became SOP"). Never mind examining what it means when someone is not "overly cooperative" and whether that is a report to be treated seriously.
Anyone looking at this can see that it's a real problem, and it's not just fluff made up by some overzealous talk show host. It's happening. It's real. And its a clear indication of what happens when politics gets put before fighting crime and giving citizens the protection they deserve. Couple that with a regime that doesn't allow us the right to protect ourselves, and you've got a real problem. Read the WBAL report. Watch the clips of Police Commissoner Hamm admitting that this was SOP. I really take offense to the idea that this is just some radio host cooked up notion. We have the PC on camera. We have redundant coverage from major media outlets. Even the perpetrators here don't deny it its happening.

Coronach
February 15, 2006, 03:23 PM
I must have missed this. Where is the commissioner admitting that this is happening, "as a matter of policy" as was implied? I've read the links, and I see a combination of three things:

1. Some lazy cops who don't want to take a burglary report. As unfortunate and wrong as this is, it is hardly a conspiracy and hardly unique to Bawlmer.

2. Questioning the policy of "linking" or "duplication" of incidents, which is necessary if done properly but a convenient way to be lazy if it's not.

3. An overzealous politician in search of an issue, who has latched onto #1 and #2 and is running with it.

That's a long way from being a conspiracy to under-report crime. The probable truth is bad enough; sounds like BPD needs to have a little roll call lecture about how you will be taking each and every appropriate report, on pain of discipline.

Mike

Carl N. Brown
February 15, 2006, 03:39 PM
Total Violent Crime per 100,000 population per Annum
based on the prelimary FBI crime report for 2004.

Baltimore: 1839 per 100,000

US average for cities over 10,000 pop.: 239

This makes Baltimore the most dangerous city over 500,000 population.

And they are going to cure this by changing reporting?????

U.S.SFC_RET
February 15, 2006, 04:18 PM
I am sure that there is a heck of alot of political pressure to undereport crime in baltimore from everyone involved at the high level. Citizens there are tired of the chronic and incessant intensity of violent crime in their neighborhoods. But like the ostrich that buries it's head in the sand this democratic stronghold will never solve it through the use of CCW, instead their answer is to throw more money at it, maybe pass a few more antigun laws and hope that the problem goes away by itself. It is a vicious circle. It is still good advise for anyone going through Baltimore stay out of the bad neighborhoods but crime has been spreading out from the city for years now and there is no end in sight.

Helmetcase
February 15, 2006, 11:21 PM
I must have missed this. Where is the commissioner admitting that this is happening, "as a matter of policy" as was implied? I've read the links, and I see a combination of three things:
You're clearly not reading any of the links provided, or watching any of the video clips provided, are you? Not trying to be snooty, but that's EXACTLY what's happened. Hamm has clearly stated that in various instances where reports CLEARLY should have been filed that his officers aren't filing them, and he supports this practice.

I appreciate healthy skepticism...but what you and some others are offering here is uninformed skepticism.

1. Some lazy cops who don't want to take a burglary report. As unfortunate and wrong as this is, it is hardly a conspiracy and hardly unique to Bawlmer.It's not just burglarly. We're talking about cops taking deliberate efforts to make it so shootings and violent crimes don't make it onto the ledgers, and doing it with the blessing--on goddamn TV cameras no less--of their superiors.

That's a big deal. And no, that's not happening everywhere.

Coronach
February 16, 2006, 12:48 AM
Humor me. Quote the text from the link where he does this. And no, I did not watch the video. My computer has been buggy of late with vids. If this is only to be found in the video, and I have to wade through to find it, I will. However, if you can point me to a text quote, please do. I thought I read all of them.

For the record, I am skeptical that they're doing it as a matter of policy, at the street cop level. I'm not skeptical that you have a general tendency to file as little paper as possible, in contravention of police policy. This is, as I have said, not unique to the land of crab cakes. It is also unfortunate, and wrong, as is lethargy in any branch of government. But it is also not a conspiracy nor, as implied, a matter of policy.

I am also not skeptical that police commissioners and anyone on up in the food chain might do what they can statistically to massage the crime stats. But to do it at the street-cop level would be very tough. You cannot tell me that everyone in BPD loves the commissioner and the mayor enough to play ball with this. All it would take is one anonymous leak to the media, and it would be all over.

Mike

Helmetcase
February 16, 2006, 08:39 AM
Humor me. Quote the text from the link where he does this.

I'll go you one better, here's from today's newstory (http://www.thewbalchannel.com/11investigates/7097697/detail.html) on this (as you can imagine, this is THE story in Baltimore re: the O'Malley campaign and crime in the city).

In the I-Team's report broadcast on Monday (http://www.thewbalchannel.com/news/7020235/detail.html), Baltimore City Police Commissioner Leonard Hamm defended his officers' decisions to write off a report of assault in the city's Cherry Hill neighborhood. Hamm said the victims would not cooperate.

At the time, the two victims were in a hospital, one under treatment for what a nurse described as a gunshot wound and the other for what an officer described as a beating injury.

Hamm said the way that incident was handled was not isolated.

"So, let me clear about this, if your officers get there and the victims don't want to cooperate, the officers have the right to simply say this is unfounded?" Miller asked the commissioner.

"In some cases, yes," Hamm responded.

Let's be clear on what he's saying--we're not recording that a crime occured because we didn't like the cooperation provided by the victims. And that, my friends, is a problem. It doesn't even take into account the scads of stories of assaults and burglaries where the victims DID want to cooperate and the PD still didn't take reports.

If people don't cooperate it probably does make prosecution difficult. That DOES NOT mean a crime didn't happen or that the PD doesn't have to discharge their duty. It DOES mean that, since even PC Hamm admits this isn't an isolated practice, that crimes are happening that aren't being reported--which doesn't do much for dissuading criminals, does it?

Even today I had someone post on my website about a friend getting pistol whipped and the cops refusing to take a report. If it were one person here or there...we might be able to brush it off. But there's been a constant deluge of people complaining about this, and now we have PC Hamm admitting that this, in fact, is going on. And he did it on camera. (The video is attached to one of the links I think).

I don't think you can let the commanders and leadership off the hook on this. Either they didn't know this was happening and are derelict (which doesn't seem to be the case), or they knew it was going on, and probably encouraged or at least accepted this practice for political gain. Either one is a fireable offense.

Coronach, I appreciate your skepticism, but if you were in Baltimore hearing the numerous cases of this happening and watching our PC and Mayor more or less confessing that it happens on camera, that skepticism would fade. Quickly.


For the record, I am skeptical that they're doing it as a matter of policy, at the street cop level.
That's probably true; I'll bet there are members of the rank and file who actually take too much pride in how they do their jobs to play along. What'll really tear this for me is learning that such officers are being rebuked and denied promotions, etc. for not playing along. I know when I was robbed last year on my doorstep, if they hadn't taken a report I'd have been quite annoyed. They ended up shooting my robber four times...so it was kinda hard to not file a report.

But it is also not a conspiracy nor, as implied, a matter of policy.I'm sure it isn't unique that folks want to file as little paperwork as possible. But I'd like to see you demonstrate any other major city in the country where people are lying in hospital beds with gunshot wounds while the Police Commissioner is arguing that it's ok--AND not isolated--that the police don't take reports. Couple that with a Mayor who is running for govt more or less on the sole platform of greatly reducing crime...and you're SOL. Where else is that happening Coronach? We're dying to hear about it. It might not be written anywhere...but if it's happening, widely and commonly, and the PC even says so...yeah, that's policy buddy.

My policy is I don't date men. It's not written anywhere, but I can assure you it's my policy.
;)

Coronach
February 16, 2006, 02:28 PM
Let's be clear on what he's saying--we're not recording that a crime occured because we didn't like the cooperation provided by the victims. And that, my friends, is a problem. It doesn't even take into account the scads of stories of assaults and burglaries where the victims DID want to cooperate and the PD still didn't take reports. I'm not sure that's what he is saying. He's stating that in instances where the victims won't cooperate, it is sometimes OK to not take reports. FWIW, I would say that gunshot wounds would not be one of those instances, but consider- it comes back to what report to take. Was it an agg assault, or was it a robbery? Depending on the level of "uncooperation", you might be to the point where someone is injured but you have no darned clue what happened. I know it sounds alien to the reader, the mere idea that you could be beaten or shot and not want to tell the police what happened, but I assure you that this happens every day. I agree with you that for serious offenses you go with what you know, however limited, and file a report. From reading over the links, it is not at all clear that he is defending the officer's decision to not file a report in this instance, just in a general sense. If they actually have a guy in a hospital bed with a GSW and no report is filed, something is certainly wrong- but is it a conspiracy?

If people don't cooperate it probably does make prosecution difficult. That DOES NOT mean a crime didn't happen or that the PD doesn't have to discharge their duty.Collecting info for stats is only half the battle- it needs to be accurate info. Again, was it a robbery? A simple assault? An agg assault? Was a weapon used? What weapon? Was it domestic-related? All of these are things you need to know to classify the crime. If you don't know them, you are not classifying it properly. Which is worse, a crime that is unreported or one that is improperly classified? Both skew the statistics.

It DOES mean that, since even PC Hamm admits this isn't an isolated practice, that crimes are happening that aren't being reported--which doesn't do much for dissuading criminals, does it?

Even today I had someone post on my website about a friend getting pistol whipped and the cops refusing to take a report. If it were one person here or there...we might be able to brush it off. But there's been a constant deluge of people complaining about this, and now we have PC Hamm admitting that this, in fact, is going on. And he did it on camera. (The video is attached to one of the links I think). Again, this sounds more like lazy cops than a policy to suppress crime numbers. Believe me, I'd almost rather it be the former than the latter; I don't claim this as some sort of victory for law enforcement. I agree that if this is a frequent occurance that BPD needs to have a come-to-Jesus meeting with its officers and remind them that putting pen to paper is part of the job description.I don't think you can let the commanders and leadership off the hook on this. Either they didn't know this was happening and are derelict (which doesn't seem to be the case), or they knew it was going on, and probably encouraged or at least accepted this practice for political gain. Either one is a fireable offense.I still hold it is more dereliction than conspiracy. Any time you have someone clamoring to make a report, a report should be filed. Period. It sounds like the street officers are being given too much discretion in when to take and when not to take reports. This is still saveral key ingredients short of a conspiracy.What'll really tear this for me is learning that such officers are being rebuked and denied promotions, etc. for not playing along.Cite?I'm sure it isn't unique that folks want to file as little paperwork as possible. But I'd like to see you demonstrate any other major city in the country where people are lying in hospital beds with gunshot wounds while the Police Commissioner is arguing that it's ok--AND not isolated--that the police don't take reports. Couple that with a Mayor who is running for govt more or less on the sole platform of greatly reducing crime...and you're SOL. Where else is that happening Coronach? We're dying to hear about it. It might not be written anywhere...but if it's happening, widely and commonly, and the PC even says so...yeah, that's policy buddy.

My policy is I don't date men. It's not written anywhere, but I can assure you it's my policy.
;)You might have something here. The commissioner and various other bigwigs have decided that it is in their best interests not to ride the street cops and make sure they file the appropriate paperwork at all times. That is still, to my mind, not a policy, but it is, at least, a plausible scenario. I can buy that this happens, it makes a sort of sense. It requires no shadowy conspiracy, and "helps" everyone out (except the citizens); the cops get to be lethargic and the political leadership gets softer crime stats.

As to where else this happens, I assure you that every police department in this nation links "duplicates" of runs, and every PD in this country has officers that will not take reports when they are lacking critical information needed to properly classify them. However, it is a question of degree. It sounds like BPD is being less than careful in duping and less than meticulous in its report-taking.

Mike

Helmetcase
February 16, 2006, 07:08 PM
I'm not sure that's what he is saying. He's stating that in instances where the victims won't cooperate, it is sometimes OK to not take reports.
The problem is we have a documented pattern of this happening in cases that it's clearly NOT ok to not put pen to paper, and PC Hamm trying to justify it.

FWIW, I would say that gunshot wounds would not be one of those instances, but consider- it comes back to what report to take. Was it an agg assault, or was it a robbery? Depending on the level of "uncooperation", you might be to the point where someone is injured but you have no darned clue what happened. When people are shot at, a violent crime is committed--even if no one is hit. Period.


I know it sounds alien to the reader, the mere idea that you could be beaten or shot and not want to tell the police what happened, but I assure you that this happens every day.
I don't doubt that for a second--when I got robbed, the cops were pleasantly surprised that I was willing to ride around the neighborhood looking for the perp. People are too scared to do that too often.

Even so, that doesn't mean a crime hasn't been committed, or that it's ok for someone like the Commish to sanction or let that sort of thing slide--let alone go on camera and say that it's ok by him.

If they actually have a guy in a hospital bed with a GSW and no report is filed, something is certainly wrong- but is it a conspiracy?
I don't think I'm really saying it's a conspiracy. I'm saying it's a criminal dereliction of duty, a failure to discharge the office, and if the commanding officers are saying it's fine by them, then that's policy man.


Collecting info for stats is only half the battle- it needs to be accurate info. Again, was it a robbery? A simple assault? An agg assault? Was a weapon used? What weapon? Was it domestic-related? All of these are things you need to know to classify the crime. If you don't know them, you are not classifying it properly. Which is worse, a crime that is unreported or one that is improperly classified? Both skew the statistics.The problem here is different. We're talking about crimes not getting reported at all, which is far worse. And the head cop saying he's cool with that. On camera.

Again, this sounds more like lazy cops than a policy to suppress crime numbers.
Then I don't know what to tell you. We have documented cases of violent crimes not getting reported, and the PC giving his tacit approval. You can call it what you want, but when the Commish starts saying "yeah, that's the way I want it done" then it's a LOT more than just lazy cops. I dunno why you insist on the rosy colored glasses for what's going on here, but you seem to be missing some of the key facets of what's at work here. :confused:

It sounds like BPD is being less than careful in duping and less than meticulous in its report-taking.

Mike
Indeed. And it's a real eyesore for a mayor-turned-governatorial-candidate who's staked his political life on being a crime fighter. He's handed his opponents a cocked and locked .45.

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