Effects of Cheney shooting on RKBA..


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Don't Tread On Me
February 14, 2006, 04:39 PM
I don't think this qualifies as a dupe. I think we need a thread to discuss the potential fall-out from the Cheney incident.


What do you guys think might come out of this? If the guy dies as a result of this, it could be much worse. Even if he doesn't, hunting and shooting and most importantly, firearms have just been launched into the global spotlight in the most negative of ways.


Obviously every anti-gun group in the nation will be screaming for gun control as a result. But I'm not worried about them, that's their standard behavior. What I worry about is the GOP, or the administration trying to do damage control by perhaps pushing or allowing some sort of gun control bill slip in the near future.


They are extremely vulnerable. Iraq, the economy, gas prices and all sorts of other issues has the incumbant government in fear. They do not need a serious gun control issue right now. They'd gladly stick the knife in our backs in order to appease the mainstream who might consider this the last-straw for an administration that has screwed up in so many other ways.



What do you think might come out of this? What do we need to do to defend against this? What is the objective at the moment?

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ArmedBear
February 14, 2006, 04:43 PM
No one's going to die.

28 gauge birdshot from 30 yards away.

This is just an attempt by the press to make something out of nothing.

Meanwhile, Gore tells the Saudis that we're imprisoning Arabs for no reason and treating them deplorably, the Iranian president is threatening to nuke Israel, daily, and Europe, already in an economic downward drift, is on the verge of a violent clash of cultures.

El Tejon
February 14, 2006, 04:43 PM
And the nexus between even more gun control laws and this accident is???:confused:

Nothing will come of this.

We should use this as an example to make gun safety and marksmanship mandatory in all public schools.

The objective never changes: destroy all gun control laws.

Henry Bowman
February 14, 2006, 04:52 PM
No one's going to die.

28 gauge birdshot from 30 yards away.

This is just an attempt by the press to make something out of nothing.

Meanwhile, Gore tells the Saudis that we're imprisoning Arabs for no reason and treating them deplorably, the Iranian president is threatening to nuke Israel, daily, and Europe, already in an economic downward drift, is on the verge of a violent clash of cultures.And what mainstream America really cares about is who is going to win "Dancing with the Stars," "American Idol," "The Bachelor," "Survivor XVII," or the next episode of "Wife Swap." :banghead:

KriegHund
February 14, 2006, 04:55 PM
CNN has been reporting this 24/7 since its been reported. its fraking rediculous. Get some REAL news! yeesh.

As soon as i heard about it in yesterday i thought "Bah, more fodder for the anti's..."

Don't Tread On Me
February 14, 2006, 04:59 PM
Look, I agree that this isn't significant - at least from OUR perspective, but it can turn into something worse. They've reported that some of the shot "migrated" to his heart, causing him a minor heart attack. That seems a little more serious than initial reports would have us believe. Let's not forget that they tried to put a lid on this the first 24 hours. They're trying real hard to hide the severity of it. I don't think he'll die either, but even if he dies from complications related to everything that happened...you know how the leftwing haters will twist this. The media is already hard at work.


We'll have to wait and see if any long term effect on the current balance of RKBA is seen or not. It is just me, or does it make it more difficult now for the NRA, or for the GOP to promote or persue any pro-gun bills for quite a while after an incident like this? That's an effect on us wouldn't you agree?

ArmedBear
February 14, 2006, 05:02 PM
If I thought that the GOP had any intention to promote or pursue pro-gun bills, then I might think it will have some effect.

Truthfully, I don't have a whole lot of objection to hunter safety courses, or, for that matter, firearms safety being taught in schools. I'd rather know that the other guy in the field had to take a safety course.

Ermac
February 14, 2006, 05:07 PM
i dont think this is going to really affect our firearms ownership in anway
like some of the other posters said, its a media ploy
i do believe cheney shot by accident and it was truly an accident (although a stupid one) but it does make you wonder because 'Scooter was appointed by Willington......:uhoh:

UWstudent
February 14, 2006, 05:08 PM
We can't get [Osama] bin Laden, but we nailed a 78-year-old attorney.

- David Letterman

:neener: :neener: :neener: :neener:

ArmedBear
February 14, 2006, 05:17 PM
Anyone here listen to Jerry Doyle? An interesting guy. Bashes the Republicans pretty hard. Not a GOP apologist by any stretch, but harbors no illusions about who runs CNN or the NYT and what their political objectives are.

Anyway, his take is that the press wants to bury the real stories of the day because they hurt the Democrats politically (Gore), and they undermine the wishful worldview of the current American Left that keeps saying that conflict in the Middle East is either made up, or the US' fault (Iran and Europe).

I tend to agree with him.

RealGun
February 14, 2006, 05:17 PM
The story, as far as guns are concerned, not politics, is very positive in that many will learn about hunter safety or be reminded of the rules.

Brett Bellmore
February 14, 2006, 05:20 PM
It's not going to have significant effect, for exactly the reason Armed Bear states: The Republicans weren't planning on doing any more for us anyway, (At the federal level, anyway.) so this doesn't spike anything they might have done. At the same time it doesn't make it any safer for them to screw us over, so they're not going to do that, either, as much as some of them might want to. And it has no effect on Cheney's political future, 'cause he doesn't have one.

At most, it might move up plans to replace Cheney with whoever Bush feels like anointing for the 2008 nomination. And the chances that was going to be somebody notably pro-gun were slim to none already.

RealGun
February 14, 2006, 05:26 PM
At most, it might move up plans to replace Cheney with whoever Bush feels like anointing for the 2008 nomination. And the chances that was going to be somebody notably pro-gun were slim to none already.

I disagree. I think Condi Rice would move up instantly.

ArmedBear
February 14, 2006, 05:26 PM
At most, it might move up plans to replace Cheney with whoever Bush feels like anointing for the 2008 nomination. And the chances that was going to be somebody notably pro-gun were slim to none already.

With one very interesting exception.

Don't Tread On Me
February 14, 2006, 05:28 PM
Interesting. We're touching on other issues that past threads have discussed. If all the hard work we've done, through the NRA and other methods over the past 10 years has resulted in a simple gun industry protection bill, then we're in trouble. Possibly also the political position to resist an AWB renewal also.


Ever since that industry protection bill, there's been ZERO buzz about anything else on the horizon. Nothing, nada, zilch. Nothing federal at least.


So I guess you guys are right, we won't lose any opportunies for pro-gun laws, since we exhausted them already. Heh, should be a T-shirt made that says: "We backed the GOP for 10 years, and all we got is this lousy industry protection"


I dunno, I see the left using this to nag and nag and nag for some form of guncontrol. Maybe not a bill, but later on in the future to use it as leverage on a future bill.


You guys don't seem to think of this as much, but I feel that this is a pretty big blow to us. At the very least, it has CHANGED THE SUBJECT. No longer will the subjects that we discuss, but rather the subject will be again in the negative. I'm hoping that this isn't a turning point where we go from being on the offensive, back onto the defensive.

kennyboy
February 14, 2006, 05:28 PM
I don't think we have anything to worry about. The only thing that we have to fear is that this may hurt Cheny's campaign if he chooses to run in '08, but I do not think it will have much effect. Everyone who I talk to seems to just laugh it off. Honestly, it's not like the VP purposely shot the guy or anything. Anyways, people like hunting and will, hopefully, just feel that VP Cheney was enjoying a day afield and an unfortunate accident occurred. I am not worrying about any gun control measures being taken as a result of this. Conservatives are still in control and I doubt they will pass gun control legislation-at least I hope they don't.

ArmedBear
February 14, 2006, 05:35 PM
Interesting. We're touching on other issues that past threads have discussed. If all the hard work we've done, through the NRA and other methods over the past 10 years has resulted in a simple gun industry protection bill, then we're in trouble. Possibly also the political position to resist an AWB renewal also.


Ever since that industry protection bill, there's been ZERO buzz about anything else on the horizon. Nothing, nada, zilch. Nothing federal at least.


So I guess you guys are right, we won't lose any opportunies for pro-gun laws, since we exhausted them already. Heh, should be a T-shirt made that says: "We backed the GOP for 10 years, and all we got is this lousy industry protection"


I dunno, I see the left using this to nag and nag and nag for some form of guncontrol. Maybe not a bill, but later on in the future to use it as leverage on a future bill.


You guys don't seem to think of this as much, but I feel that this is a pretty big blow to us. At the very least, it has CHANGED THE SUBJECT. No longer will the subjects that we discuss, but rather the subject will be again in the negative. I'm hoping that this isn't a turning point where we go from being on the offensive, back onto the defensive.

I do think that the AWB sunset was an accomplishment as well, though. Politically, it's usually a lot easier to let things quietly die than to make a big deal out of them.

I wouldn't be defensive, though. Just remind people that, if they were fishing and Cheney hooked a buddy with a couple of treble hooks, it wouldn't sound as bad as "he shot someone" but it would be about the same thing. My answer to people is, "It was a little shotgun (28 G) with birdshot at 30 yards. It's not what they make of it. That said, I'm glad I had to take a safety course to get MY hunting license, and I think everyone should take it." End of story. Works fine.

Merkin.Muffley
February 14, 2006, 05:44 PM
What do you guys think might come out of this?

Nothing significant. It's a hunting accident.

RealGun
February 14, 2006, 05:45 PM
Ever since that industry protection bill, there's been ZERO buzz about anything else on the horizon.

That is partly because Congress has been in full session only a couple weeks since. I see no reason to be pessimistic.

I expect the DC Gun Ban Repeal to come up again, but I don't find it on the active legislation list (Thomas). As part of the next round of DC appropriations would be my guess, probably late in the year.

Don't Tread On Me
February 14, 2006, 05:45 PM
Well, I don't think people understand what birdshot is, or what 28g is. All they know is GUN --> SHOT MAN ---> Man in intensive care for days. To the mainstream, a gun is a gun is a gun. Except when they are "educated" by anti-gunners at CNN or ABC or NBC that certain guns like 50calibers are extra-deadly.

ArmedBear
February 14, 2006, 05:47 PM
Well, I don't think people understand what birdshot is, or what 28g is. All they know is GUN --> SHOT MAN ---> Man in intensive care for days. To the mainstream, a gun is a gun is a gun. Except when they are "educated" by anti-gunners at CNN or ABC or NBC that certain guns like 50calibers are extra-deadly.

It's a good opportunity to explain it to them. If you don't take that opportunity, you're missing out.

fourays2
February 14, 2006, 05:51 PM
Non-shooters have been asking me my oppinion on this as a gun savant and I have been roaring with laughter as I tell them how overblown the media coverage of this is. I also use the opportuinity to point out the utter ignorance of the media in general as they try to spin this into something akin to Cheney opening up on the guy with a chain gun, and then segway into the media hysteria over 50cals. I then point out that if they are this ignorant about guns then they're probably just as ignorant about a lot of other topics. All in all I'd say I've made very good use of this media event.:)

UWstudent
February 14, 2006, 05:53 PM
Well, I don't think people understand what birdshot is, or what 28g is. All they know is GUN --> SHOT MAN ---> Man in intensive care for days. To the mainstream, a gun is a gun is a gun. Except when they are "educated" by anti-gunners at CNN or ABC or NBC that certain guns like 50calibers are extra-deadly.

exactly what i was thinking..

cheny could not run anymore, how the heck do you think he could debate again? all the opponent would have to say is "hell, at least i don't shoot people"..

it wont matter what the exact details are, accident or not.. the majority of the non-armed americans will think CHENEY WITH GUN SHOT MAN..
they probably wont even remember it was associated with hunting

ArmedBear
February 14, 2006, 05:54 PM
All in all I'd say I've made very good use of this media event.:)

Ditto.

BTW there's nothing wrong with emphasizing that, from what you heard, the guy did something that was a complete NO-NO, and sadly he paid the price. I've explained to a few people how, if 3 people go upland hunting, you divide up the field of fire and you don't walk into the line of fire, especially while ducking in the grass!

So far, people "get it."

answerguy
February 14, 2006, 06:02 PM
No one's going to die.

28 gauge birdshot from 30 yards away.

This is just an attempt by the press to make something out of nothing.

Meanwhile, Gore tells the Saudis that we're imprisoning Arabs for no reason and treating them deplorably, the Iranian president is threatening to nuke Israel, daily, and Europe, already in an economic downward drift, is on the verge of a violent clash of cultures.

Not so fast there ArmedBear, you've probably heard by now that the 'victim' has had a mild heart attack. If he were to die how would that change things?

Jake
February 14, 2006, 06:08 PM
Let the anti's and Dems and all the usual suspects scream and cry all they want. I pray that they do.

Because if they try to use this as a excuse to ban anything it will be seen as a direct attack on hunting. And then all the duck hunting, trap shooting gun owners how normally say "I don't care if they ban xxxxxxx. Nobody needs one of those. They'll never try to take my trap gun, hunting rifle etc." may wake up and see the light.

Merkin.Muffley
February 14, 2006, 06:13 PM
Not so fast there ArmedBear, you've probably heard by now that the 'victim' has had a mild heart attack. If he were to die how would that change things?


Probably not at all - it's still a hunting accident. The guy is 78 years old, people that old often have health problems and some even die.

Turkey Creek
February 14, 2006, 06:14 PM
And what mainstream America really cares about is who is going to win "Dancing with the Stars," "American Idol," "The Bachelor," "Survivor XVII," or the next episode of "Wife Swap."

Henry hit the nail on the head- once the comedians finish with this it's gone

Ezekiel
February 14, 2006, 06:16 PM
This is just an attempt by the press to make something out of nothing.

Seems like quite the dismissive statement to me. This is big, and it makes gun owners look like CRAP.

Brett Bellmore
February 14, 2006, 06:26 PM
I disagree. I think Condi Rice would move up instantly.

With one very interesting exception.

Well, *I* like the idea of Condi for President, but does Bush? This will really come down to who he wants to annoint, not who we'd like to see in the White house.

I have the nasty feeling the GOP plans for her to play second fiddle to somebody like Giuliani or McCain, a meaningless sop to conservatives while the guy at the top of the ticket actually ends up taking the office and screwing us over.

CAnnoneer
February 14, 2006, 06:32 PM
This is big, and it makes gun owners look like CRAP.

I am afraid I must agree. In politics, how things look is far more influential than how things are. The first time I saw it, I said "Ah, !@#$ crap! We needed that as much as a kick in the head."

Bottom line is what people will remember is that a responsible experienced hunter shoots another, resulting in hospitalization. So, the antis can gloat: "See, guns are uncontrollably dangerous even in experienced hands. Let's ban these big bad beastly machines of death!"

In addition, the leftists can mix their frothing hatred for the man with their frothing hatred for gun rights, possibly swinging haters of the administration into the anti-gun camp.

Any way I look at it, nothing good can come out of this occurrence for gun rights.

Don't Tread On Me
February 14, 2006, 06:41 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing a little pressure fall on the idiotic hunter-only types who feel that their precious hunting instruments are the only firearms with a legitimacy to be owned. But...that is just a fantasy.


We have to be bigger than that though guys. They might be morons for often siding against our "assault weapons" but for the greater mission of preserving the RKBA, we have to rise above that and them, and not fall into the divide and conquer tactics of the gun-grabbers.

ArmedBear
February 14, 2006, 06:54 PM
Bottom line is what people will remember is that a responsible experienced hunter shoots another, resulting in hospitalization. So, the antis can gloat: "See, guns are uncontrollably dangerous even in experienced hands. Let's ban these big bad beastly machines of death!"

In addition, the leftists can mix their frothing hatred for the man with their frothing hatred for gun rights, possibly swinging haters of the administration into the anti-gun camp.


In politics, though, it also doesn't matter if people who are already 100% committed to voting a certain way become a little more shrill when preaching to the choir.

Anti-gunners can dance around and do whatever they want. They're already anti-gunners. Leftists are already frothing haters of man and of gun rights.

What you are describing is a circle-jerk of pre-existing extremists which, if you haven't noticed, has been going on for a long time already. Do you think that this will change the way these people vote, or anything else they do? Frankly, their staged "protests" are attracting ever fewer participants and ever less support.

If a wall is already bright white, and you paint another coat of white over it, it doesn't get any whiter.:)

That's what I mean. The fact that people who already get apoplectic about everything Dick Cheney says or does, or fails to say or do, are getting apoplectic over this, adds up to very little in politics.

davec
February 14, 2006, 06:54 PM
Probably not at all - it's still a hunting accident. The guy is 78 years old, people that old often have health problems and some even die.

Especially with metal pellets lodged next to their heart that their buddy put there.

My favorite now is all the GOP spinning how it was little more then a "pellet gun".

So on the left we have people calling semi-auto rifles with certain ergonomic features weapons of mass destruction, and on the right we have people calling honest to god firearms "pellet guns" and spreading lies and disinformation about their capabilities and lethality.

I guess no one is above lying about guns to push their own narrow agenda.

Kim
February 14, 2006, 07:38 PM
I can not believe some of you. If the RKBA can be destroyed by a hunting accident by the Vice-President and a really silly looking national press then you might as well give up and go home. This has absolutley nothing to do with it. It was a hunting accident. Most people understand that despite the MSM which understands NOTHING about firearms or hunting. This shows how out of touch they are with the majority of citizens. I am laughing about it. Are we going to ban down hill skiing cause one of our gals had a bad fall. Hunting is a sport. Are we going to stop NASCAR racing because someone was killed. Are we going to stop Mountain Climbers because there are people who die doing something that seems dumb like climbing MT. Everest. Come on surely we are not that weak and cowardly a people. Better not let your child ever DRIVE or RIDE a BIKE. How about FootBall---------Children die playing that. Ban Deer Stands NOW. Actually I think this helps as it shows how stupid the MSM is. No one trusts those people anymore on either side of the political divide.

garand_shooter
February 14, 2006, 07:56 PM
So far Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than Cheney's shotgun. And Cheney didn't flee the scene to sober up. If ole Teddy can survive Chappaquidick, Cheney and Gun owners, can survive this.

TonkinTwentyMil
February 14, 2006, 08:39 PM
Gosh, how can anybody even begin to think that this Cheney incident could remotely impact the RKBA?

I mean, heck, really, all we gotta do is remember:

1. The Lib-Donkeys (aka, latent gun-grabbers) have repeatedly told us that the 2A is really all about duck/quail hunting and that they want to protect "sportsmens' rights," and...

2. Dem Party chairman Dr. Howard Dean has reassured the public that Gun Control is no longer a plank in the Dem's national agenda (even though TONS of new silly Gun Control legislation is suddenly being pushed by local Dem pols at state levels from Massachussetts to California).

And, even if Hillary gets elected and the GOP loses the Senate in '08, I'm still vewy, vewy confident that any new administration (staffed by Dem operatives plucked from those anti-gun state/local "farm teams") certainly wouldn't try to repay the Brady Bunch voters who elected them...

Yeah. Right.

IndianaDean
February 14, 2006, 08:46 PM
50,000 people in the US alone get killed every year in motor vehicle accidents. I'd say publicly remind everyone we need to ban vehicles first.

PaulBk
February 14, 2006, 08:48 PM
I think that the end result will be:

1-Increased sales of Blaze wear.
2-Increased awareness of hunting safety.
3-More lawyer jokes.

Really, even in ultra liberal Seattle this story hasn't generated much momentum. Hunting accidents are not new or earth shaking, even when 'celebrities' are involved.

Barring any significant changes to Mr. Whittington's health, I am guessing that in a week there will be no mainstream story.

Activists will agitate, but that is what they do. C'est la vive.

-PB

geekWithA.45
February 14, 2006, 08:49 PM
They'll try to make a mountain out of a molehill, and more people will notice them trying to do it.

Look, the forces of organized gun bigotry don't need hunting accidents to help their cause, no matter how high profile it is.

They're not rigged to exploit that, and there aren't that many handles to exploit to begin with.

What they are rigged to exploit is whatever moral panic they can muster from the next armed idjit who goes off with splashy results.

Their agenda is furthered by moral panic, and it's pretty hard to make moral panic out of a hunting gaffe.


Know your enemy's tools.
Read up on the dynamics of moral panic here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_panic

Standing Wolf
February 14, 2006, 09:10 PM
If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears or sees it, that's a good reason for leftist extremists to screech and whine for more so-called "gun control."

That saidô, it saddens me that Cheney was hunting carelessly and without a license. I thought he was more responsible than that.

Art Eatman
February 14, 2006, 09:29 PM
There are roughly 1,000 fatalities per year via firearms of all sorts. Hunting accidents are a few tens.

So: Pretty rare, really, but not unknown. Statistically, no big deal.

It's a personal tragedy for both Cheney and Whittington. Would YOU want to have the memory of having shot somebody who at least was a friendly acquaintance, if not necessarily a friend? When you started out for a pleasant day of hunting, and wound up with a faceful of garbage?

The thing is, it could easily happen to any of us. One split-second of inattention and everthing goes to hell.

If Whittington dies, it will go to the Grand Jury, as do all homicides in Texas. It's a hunting accident, so there will be no criminal charges. Speculation as to civil action by Whittington's family is just that: Speculation, and pointless.

Sure, the press is doing its usual slobbering, and the anti- groups will be doing their usual mindless babbling. That's what they do. That's all they know how to do. Still, it's "...a tale told by and idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing...", insofar as our own world of shooting and hunting is concerned.

But Cheney has to live with it, and I feel sorry for the man.

As for this particular thread, it's assaying just really high in weird ideas...

:(, Art

bogie
February 14, 2006, 10:05 PM
Does anyone know what size shot it was? I'm gonna sacrifice on of my AAs to a ziplock for demonstration purposes.

TrafficMan
February 14, 2006, 10:37 PM
as a resident of Los Angeles, i know a lot of liberal dems "bleeding hearts" so to speak..two of them are ladies that i talk to on a daily basis. one knows that i'm a gun person, the other doesn't....both of them think that the press coverage is out of line and way over the top....go figure. even some dems/libs don't have their heads up their azzes. surprisingly enough.

Walter
February 14, 2006, 11:13 PM
I have lived and hunted in Texas all my life, and I guarantee there
are at least a hundred identical "shooting accidents" every year
here.
I know a dozen people who have been peppered by bird shot
and lost blood because of it. I know a hundred people who have been peppered by birdshot and didn't bleed. I have been peppered myself a dozen times, at
least. I can not remember one time when the police were called to investigate the "shooting".
This whole thing is a story because the "Press" are looking for something
to hang on this administration, and because there is nothing else of great
import going on. At least, in their opinion. Never mind the fact that Iran
has all but announced its intentions to build a nuclear bomb.

"We can't be bothered by the beginning of WW III. Dick Cheney just
peppered his bird-hunting buddy." :barf:

Walter

Lobotomy Boy
February 14, 2006, 11:24 PM
The reality is that when you are a high profile public figure, you have to live up to a higher standard. A dog biting a man is not a news story. The vice president of the United States shooting a man in the face, even if this is an everyday occurance in Texas (remind me not to go hunting with any Texans), is a news story.

I agree that this is a distraction from real news stories, like the report on the federal government's incompetent handling of Katrina. If Cheney had shot Chertoff, the public might have been willing to give him a pass.

Kodiaz
February 15, 2006, 12:05 AM
This was a hunting accident this is a very rare event. Unfortunately Cheney didn't obey the 4 rules and wound up giving his buddy a large portion of his load. Hunting accidents are very rare. Most states require a hunter education course to get your license. This kind of thing is very rare.

Navy joe
February 15, 2006, 12:37 AM
I personally hope there is a widespread hue and cry to register all shotguns suitable for upland hunting and a proposed ban on ultra deadly #8 shotshells. Might finally get the attention of the "sportsmen"

flatdog
February 15, 2006, 12:56 AM
Perhaps because this is a firearms related forum it is easy to assume the focus of this latest press feeding frenzy is the hunting accident.
VP Cheney, the 2 Amendment, and hunting rights are bit players in all this.

The MSM feel they were slapped in the face, insulted and made to look foolish. How dare the administration bypass them and give the story to a second string, hick paper (their opinion not mine). And a Texas paper to boot.

Where is the demand for documentation of the accident itself. Where is the demand for clarity in the patient's condition. More importantly where is the concern for the patient. All were given short shrift.

For two full days they have raged against their ill treatment at the hands of the administration. The accident has taken a backseat. The arrogance and buffoonery on full display by the press corps during the White House briefings only hurts them and helps us.

flatdog

Crosshair
February 15, 2006, 01:23 AM
From what I understand, it is partialy the layers fault. He went to retrieve a Quail and failed to make some noise and let everyone know where he was.(Hey Dick, just so you know, i'm over here. Check out this one we got.) When my friends and I go gopher hunting we always make sure that we let everyone else know every once and awhile where we are so there are no FF incidents.

The_Antibubba
February 15, 2006, 01:29 AM
The uproar seems to be, at this point, that the VP didn't report the incident to the media for over 20 hours.

I too am shocked that Cheney wasn't immediately forthcoming on a somewhat negative event; he's been so honest and direct with the American people up to now. :rolleyes:

The Scandinavian
February 15, 2006, 02:46 AM
I too am shocked that Cheney wasn't immediately forthcoming on a somewhat negative event; he's been so honest and direct with the American people up to now. :rolleyes:

The BBC are now reporting that Mr Whittington has suffered a heart attack as the result of a pellet having lodged in his heart.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4714264.stm

This starts to look more serious than was originally reported.

Is the idea that the early reports of a 'mild peppering' are what is supposed so stick in peoples minds??

Kaylee
February 15, 2006, 07:43 AM
Somehow I think most all of the talking heads are too busy playing the "Evil Bush Administration Coverup" song over a frickin' one day delay to worry about pushing anything regarding guns as such.

Whether that's good or bad for us, it's getting harder and harder to take 'em seriously. :scrutiny:

The Scandinavian
February 15, 2006, 07:54 AM
Somehow I think most all of the talking heads are too busy playing the "Evil Bush Administration Coverup" song over a frickin' one day delay to worry about pushing anything regarding guns as such.

Whether that's good or bad for us, it's getting harder and harder to take 'em seriously. :scrutiny:

One thing's definately true - it's getting harder and harder to take news reports seriously...

Lobotomy Boy
February 15, 2006, 07:57 AM
The media is just reflecting back the intense anger the general population has towards this administration. The polls show that the over 50 percent of the public has a negative opinion of the current administration, but that's not what I'm seeing. I see over 50 percent of the public so incredibly angry at the administration that they are ready to take up pitch forks and torches and burn the entire executive branch at the stake. I've never seen anything like this, not even during the Watergate hearings. These people have screwed up a lot worse than Dick Cheney did during his recent hunting trip. This latest irrelevant incident is just a focal point for that incredible wellspring of anger.

Republican strategists best take note of this development and include it as a factor in their plans for the next two elections, because if history is any indicator we are looking at the pendulum swinging radically in the opposite direction. We could be looking at an '08 presidential election where Hilary can't get the Democratic nomination because she is considered too far to the right.

I suspect that some of you pups aren't old enough to remember Watergate. You might want to do a little research on the years between 1973 and 1977. Remember, those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

Master Blaster
February 15, 2006, 08:32 AM
The folks who hate guns in civilians hands are not going to change their minds because of this, they will still take the guns away if they get the chance.

The folks who believe in the RKBA are not going to change their minds either.
Hunters will still hunt. PETA will still protest.

In short it makes no difference.

IT was an accident, no more and no less.

Oh and watch NBC for a while the Olympics are on and they are talking about that rather than about Chenney.

ctdonath
February 15, 2006, 08:45 AM
I see over 50 percent of the public so incredibly angry at the administration that they are ready to take up pitch forks and torches and burn the entire executive branch at the stake.Hang out at Democratic Underground a lot, eh?

Sure there are a lot on both sides who have complaints (yes, me included). Few are in a blind rage. The alternatives (Hillary, Kerry, Gore, McCain, etc.) are rather sobering.

ctdonath
February 15, 2006, 08:48 AM
The anti-gun crowd will surely milk this accident for all it's worth (dancing in the blood again). Accidents happen. This will pass - especially as the media is more upset about not being instantly informed than about the accident itself.

Ultimately it comes down to: who has the guns? Talk is cheap.

Mongo the Mutterer
February 15, 2006, 09:05 AM
I see over 50 percent of the public so incredibly angry at the administration that they are ready to take up pitch forks and torches and burn the entire executive branch at the stake.Care to give that statistic some attribution???

bogie
February 15, 2006, 09:07 AM
The 50% who blood have wanted it since Gore went down in the Florida swamps...

You broadcast a message often enough, people begin to believe it. And people are broadcasting it on this, and other, online forums. Please, take everything, including what I have to say, and put it up against your own personal BS meter.

Mongo the Mutterer
February 15, 2006, 09:11 AM
The 50% who blood have wanted it since Gore went down in the Florida swamps...

You broadcast a message often enough, people begin to believe it. And people are broadcasting it on this, and other, online forums. Please, take everything, including what I have to say, and put it up against your own personal BS meter.Good point. BTW where were the 50% in 2004? Guess they couldn't make it to the polls. Yep the BS meter works, but attribution would be nice, especially for lies, d**m lies, and statistics...

On a lighter note, I heard someone say today that Cheney earned some "street cred fo poppin a cap in a dude"...

ctdonath
February 15, 2006, 09:36 AM
Cheney earned some "street cred fo poppin a cap in a dude"...Good point. For all the snide "gee whiz he's dangerous" comments coming from Brady et al, fact is this IS a VP who IS armed and DOES kill things for fun, which translates to a leader who knows what he wants, gets the job done, and accepts the risk of casualties - contrasted with drunk windbags like Kennedy, shrill shrews like Hillary, or lying waffles like Kerry. Be it by accident, Cheney demonstrated power understandable at a base level ... something not seen in US leadership for a long time.

Oh, for the return of Teddy Roosevelt.

RealGun
February 15, 2006, 09:56 AM
Oh, for the return of Teddy Roosevelt.

Who failed to get reelected.

captain obvious
February 15, 2006, 10:05 AM
Who failed to get reelected.

He was reelected, just lost his bid for term #3.

ctdonath
February 15, 2006, 10:06 AM
Teddy Roosevelt was not reelected.
Bill Clinton was reelected.
Does that mean Clinton was the better President? :scrutiny:

EDIT: Both made it to a second term. TR didn't get a third term; BC likely would have if he could; the question remains.

RealGun
February 15, 2006, 11:05 AM
Teddy Roosevelt was not reelected.
Bill Clinton was reelected.
Does that mean Clinton was the better President? :scrutiny:

EDIT: Both made it to a second term. TR didn't get a third term; BC likely would have if he could; the question remains.

Sorry for the diversion, but let's get this right. TR became President when McKinley was assassinated. TR was elected for another term. After a four year break he ran as a Bull Moose progressive and lost.

Camp David
February 15, 2006, 11:12 AM
The uproar seems to be, at this point, that the VP didn't report the incident to the media for over 20 hours...

As others have said, VP Cheney does not have an obligation to the Washington Press corps... his obligation was only to seek medical care for his friend (which he did) and report the incident to the local sheriff (which he did). The Washington Press corps vultures are angry becuase they were scooped on this story by a Texas newspaper, which was told of the incident by the landowner, which is proper but again, not necessary.

I have a new found respect for VP Cheney, who fulfilled his obligations following a tragic accident. I have no respect at all for the media, who are using this story for partisan purposes.

RonC
February 15, 2006, 11:26 AM
For those who wishful thinking is that this is overblown, no big thing, and that there will be no significant repercussions: you better hope that Cheney's shooting buddy doesn't die. He has been moved back to intensive care while the physicians decide what to do about the pellet lodged in his heart muscle, causing atrial fibrillation.
Here's more: "The downturn in Mr. Whittington's health significantly changed the tone of the White House reaction to the hunting accident. In Texas, Carlos Valdez, the district attorney in Kleberg County, said a fatality would immediately spur a new report from the local sheriff and, most likely, a grand jury investigation."

The reality is that Cheney's negligence could cost the RKBA movement. Just as progress (limited, at best) has been made on gun rights, this incident throws a wrench into it. You can bet that few public relations advisors will suggest that politicians should tout their support for gun rights in this upcoming election. Effectively, Cheney's incident will put gun rights on a back burner.

It's obvious that I see this a a big setback.

Ron

ctdonath
February 15, 2006, 11:39 AM
The reality is that Cheney's negligence could cost the RKBA movement.Not sure about that. At this point, pretty much everyone has taken their sides and won't budge. One side will decry a hunting accident with an obscure shotgun as, once again as they dance in the blood, clinching proof that assault weapons and .50-caliber sniper rifles should be banned lest criminals and terrorists use them. The other side will say "accidents happen; FMCDH."

They're already far more wrapped up in knots over not being instantly informed.

CAnnoneer
February 15, 2006, 11:59 AM
In politics, though, it also doesn't matter if people who are already 100% committed to voting a certain way become a little more shrill when preaching to the choir.

That would only be true if all voters vote monolithically, i.e. they never vote on issues but always on party-prompted response. I am not convinced that that is the case. For example, many that are of somewhat dem leanings and would have voted against GWB in 2004, voted for him instead, when faced with the prospect of legalization of gay marriage. That is a fact.

In the same way, my impression is that many dem voters are either neutral or ambivalent towards gun rights. That means if a Proposition gets tabled about further gun restrictions, they might choose to leave that blank at the ballot. However, if guns get associated with their favorite totem of hatred, they are likely to vote anti-gun by association.

progunner1957
February 15, 2006, 12:18 PM
Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than Cheney's shotgun.Somebody PLEASE make a bumper sticker!!!:D

I can see the antigun bigots trying to use this incident for fearmongering. If they can use it to get The Sheeple and the soccer moms to fear hunting anywhere within a 5000 mile radius of their little condos and their yuppie housing additions, they will do it.

I'm sure the (socialist scumbag) Bradys and the Moronic Million Mommies are already working on it, along with the Violence Policy Center and every other hive of antigun bigots in exsistence.:barf: :barf:

Biker
February 15, 2006, 12:24 PM
Addition to bumper sticker; (But Not For Lack Of Trying!):neener:
Biker

longeyes
February 15, 2006, 12:46 PM
If Cheney's screw-up can mean the loss of RKBA we don't deserve to have it.

If ANYTHING can mean the loss of RKBA we don't deserve to have it.

We already know that the other guys want our guns and won't stop trying to get them. Our job is to keep the mindset that says, "Hell no, Molon Labe!"

Who cares what a hysterical press corps or Lucinda Bassett's soccer moms think anyway?

(Birdshotgate doesn't impress me; I don't know about you but I'm worried about six major ports being managed by the UAE.)

RealGun
February 15, 2006, 12:58 PM
I am not in agreement with the hand wringing here. All this will amount to is a source of a cheap shot, EXACTLY like some drag out when Ted Kennedy's name comes up.

Henry Bowman
February 15, 2006, 01:13 PM
http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35577&d=1140027172:D

longeyes
February 15, 2006, 01:22 PM
If there's someone it's impossible to take a cheap shot at, it's Ted Kennedy. Chappaquiddick is just one of many dubious achievements this guy has racked up over his long career.

Lobotomy Boy
February 15, 2006, 02:16 PM
Hang out at Democratic Underground a lot, eh?



Never been there. I do, however, hang out in the real world with real people, and unlike some of you, I pay attention to what people with differing viewpoints are saying, rather than soothe myself by simply wallowing in the flatualent blather of those who agree with me and ignoring everyone else. The 50 percent number is based on an average of all the latest polls. The following are this month's numbers:

CNN/USA Today/Gallup 2/9-12/06
Approve: 39
Disapprove: 56

Gallup 2/6-9/06
Approve: 42
Disapprove: 55

FOX/Opinion Dynamics RV 2/7-8/06
Approve: 44
Disapprove: 47

AP-Ipsos 2/6-8/06
Approve: 40
Disapprove: 57

Pew 2/1-5/06
Approve: 40
Disapprove: 52

As you can see, the only recent poll that has a disapproval number of less than 50 percent is Fox, which is hardly an unbiased source, and even that was at 47 percent.

What I'm seeing in the real world (as opposed to those of you with terminal cranial rectolysis who only see the smooth muscle tissue of your own lower intestines) is that the people who disapprove of Bush really disapprove of Bush. In fact, they are in an absolute rage. This is mostly due to the fact that they felt the administration misled them into going to war in Iraq, but whatever the case, the level of rage is unlike anything I have ever seen. It is this rage that is fueling the turmoil surrounding the shooting. This is why it was idiotic for the administration not to release the shooting information immediately; that way they would have been controlling the situation instead of reacting to it.

I'm not asking you to accept my opinion. I'm just warning you that this is the mood out there. You can open your eyes and see for yourself while there may still be time to correct the situation or you can keep gazing lovingly at the inside of your own colon and thinking happy thoughts. Let's see how well that approach works out come the morning of Wednesday, November 8.

JohnBT
February 15, 2006, 03:26 PM
Where's the IGNORE LIST? I can't find my IGNORE LIST? Oh, nevermind, this isn't real, this is the Intenet. Compared to a poll anyway which is obviously real.

Sticks and stones will break my bones but etc., etc., etc.

John

CAnnoneer
February 15, 2006, 03:50 PM
In fact, they are in an absolute rage. This is mostly due to the fact that they felt the administration misled them into going to war in Iraq, but whatever the case, the level of rage is unlike anything I have ever seen.

+1

Even apolitical reserved people I know get into a spitting frothing indictment whenever GWB&co. come up in a conversation. Whether enough inert midroaders have been peeved by this admin will be seen in Nov.

IMO, the worst thing would be to create a strong backswing to the left through policies accomplishing otherwise nothing for the conservative agenda. What a loss of a golden opportunity.

Henry Bowman
February 15, 2006, 04:11 PM
Good thing Cheney wasn't hunting with Ted Nugent. The Nuge would have returned fire and taken out a couple of SS agents for good measure!:cool:

Art Eatman
February 15, 2006, 07:33 PM
Enuf. Enuf. Enuf.

Art

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