[Dave McCracken]

Sunday being my day off, if any, I've been going to PGC Sundays for some loud stress management. It's been fun, and I've getting back into my groove while decompressing.

Last Sunday I shot with a local legend,a nice guy named Al. Never being shy about picking the brains of those who know more about something than I, I asked Al what he thought I should do to improve. Scores have been running low to mid 20s.

After a moment's reflection, Al said that after seeing me shoot, he thought I'd do better taking my birds closer to the house. Since the TB has choke like the Shore has ticks, I've been hitting them as they level out, not on the rise.

Al was emphatic that I should get on the bird JUST as fast as I could. So,today saw me investing a few tickets and ammo on getting on the bird ASAP. Here's a paraphased piece of Al advice....

When the bird's just out of the house, individual variations in the throw do not show yet. Each shot is more like the others.

Getting the bird before the wind can play with it is best.

And, with all that rush, you don't have a chance to "Get things just right". This is a great way to miss, thinking about the shot instead of just shooting the thing.

And Al didn't say this,but the extra speed must aid keeping the swing going.Stopping the swing is an old problem with me.

The rythm is different doing this, and it's not just plain speed. I used a practice round to see how fast I could hit them, and then worked on getting closer to the house. Scores went from my usual of late to a straight. That was the first one in a month or so.

And the targets mostly broke satisfactorily, little bitty pieces left and some smoke.

It takes probably 1000 shells to groove in a change like this. It'll be interesting to see what happens long term.

Questions, Comments, Donations?...

[sm]

Dave, granted I shot very little trap, but a whole lot of skeet and then S/C.

My first time at trap, my doc/shooting partner basically told me the same thing. Told me basically the "hold points" since I had no idea, reminded me the human brain is the fastest computer, and the human eye/hand coordination is remarkable. He also reminded me "don't think-shoot". "Get the bird before the flight gets squirrely (wind, lighting, etc.) I shot a 23/25.

I had been measuring some skeet targets, with time, practice and experience I had been shooting the 'same old hold points and breaking them at the same spot in relation to the stake. I had begun to "measure" thus missing(stopping swing). He made me shoot quicker-so I couldn't think. Actually I'd step onto the pad , load 2 and he'd pull, single or double. Sometimes he would pull 2 quick,(like quail walk) same house, or a quick pair, like doubles per se--but wrong order.

I believe we all still need to push a bit, shoot a little quicker, find that groove. We may have to back down a bit, but IME I reaized I shot quicker/better than before (improved). Stair Step kind of deal, each step helped my shooting.

My first time - I ran another 23/25, then I was humbled, handed a 20 ga...scores fell to 19...he ran two 25/25 with a 20 ga. His comment was he learned to shoot to keep from being hungry as a kid. Lessons always stuck to shoot before the supper got away.

[HSMITH]

Al is a sharp cookie Dave.
When the bird's just out of the house, individual variations in the throw do not show yet. Each shot is more like the others.

Getting the bird before the wind can play with it is best.

And, with all that rush, you don't have a chance to "Get things just right". This is a great way to miss, thinking about the shot instead of just shooting the thing.

That is some of the best advise a trapshooter will ever get.

The other major boo boo I see a lot of trapshooters doing and being taught is bad foot position. They are 90 degrees from the target line with their feet, like a high power rifle shooter. Point your belt buckle at the midpoint of the arc that the target can come out on, and for all other shots point the belt buckle where you expect to break the target. The freedom of movement it will give you will help, but the gun gets substantially heavier after 250 targets.........

[SDC]

Interesting, and his points all make sense; I'll have to try that next round, because, like Dave, I usually let the birds flatten out before I fire.

[sjones]

Being a newbie at this game,if you shoot as soon as you see the bird come out of the high house and you are at the low house,won't you hit the high house with your load?and just the reverse if you are at the high house shooting toward the low? thanks. sj

[SDC]

Skeet is a wholly different game, where muscle memory is much more important; in skeet, you're ideally trying to break the birds in the center of the field, where their flight paths cross over one another. Also, the traps are set so that they angle out away from each other, otherwise they'd be throwing the birds directly into the other house. At the center station, you barely have enough time to get onto the bird, and it's ALREADY almost over top of you, so "waiting too long" isn't really a problem I've noticed in skeet.

[Dave McCracken]

Thanks, folks.

73,your guru was on the money. I've done little skeet,and regarded it as more a sustained lead game rather than swing through like trap. In all games, the thinking MUST be done before calling for the bird.

H,great point about foot position. I tell tyros that they should stand square to a straightaway shot with their strong side foot back just a little to add stability, and turn with the swing all the way down to the feet. "Arming" the shotgun is fatiguing and not as productive.

SDC and Sjones, try and see how it works, let us know, please. Thanks...

[JohnRov]

Thinking is bad, I've been hammering everything except the easy straightaways lately. I see it and think, "There's an easy one," let it float up there and miss. The hard angles I've been hitting hard the last few weeks. As far as my feet, I stay parallel to the hard left bird (the straightaway from #5).

[riverdog]

All good advice. I have been told to take them early but the rationale given is very convincing. I'll make an effort to get on them faster. As for not thinking while shooting Skeet: that's been the key to the few good rounds I've shot. Thinking too much tends to screw-up my shots. Mostly I just need to shoot a lot more birds.

[TrapperReady]

I'll let you know how things go, since this is something I decided to start playing around with a couple weeks ago.

By the end of the winter trap league, I was in somewhat of a rut. I'd get an occasional straight, but was mostly in the 22-24 range. The ones I was missing were somewhat of a mystery.

I did notice that the wind has been pretty bad the last few times I've shot, and that I was having to make subtle corrections. I'd get dialed in one week, and then the next week, the wind would be a little different, and I'd have to adjust again.

Anyway, the last two rounds I shot (a couple weeks ago), I decided to try breaking them as fast as I could. My scores stayed about the same, but I didn't have to adjust anything, I'd just call for the bird, pick it up and shoot. There was ZERO thinking involved.

I then decided that I'd use the first couple weeks of the summer trap league (which starts tomorrow) to shoot practice rounds and try to refine the technique. I figure two weeks of 5 rounds per week and I'll know if this is going to work any better for me.

[JohnRov]

Another thing I have been doing lately is just staring off in the distance while the other guys in the line shoot. When the guy before me goes, then I turn to the house, call, and shoot. It helps keep me from analyzing the flight of the birds and from getting nervous if everybody else is running them and I miss a few.

[TrapperReady]

JohnRov - Distraction is a wonderful thing. I've found that some of my best scores are during the winter league on the most horrible nights. When the temp is hovering around 0 Fahrenheit and the wind is whipping around, the elements command most of my attention. Also, I tend to keep my face turned down and away from the wind. I really don't pay attention until I hear the guy next to me close his action.

When it's warmer out, I tend to watch what other people are doing and think about my shooting. Nothing good ever comes of that.

However, all things considered, I'd still rather shoot a 22 in good weather than a 25 in finger and toe-numbing cold.

[9mmMike]

I noticed that in Sporting Clays they frown upon this sort of shooting. I think it is called sniping or ambushing or some such thing. At the one and only course I ever shot, they installed blinds on either side of each station to discourage quick shots so the bird, rabbit, jet-powered-frisbee can get some distance.
I usually shoot quick at hand trap or "cheap thrower" trap. My 870's are short-barrel'd and all have fixed IC chokes though.
Mike

[sm]

Dave, I took up skeet to improve my bird hunting. I started with swing through , because my mentors were shooting this way. reading Misseldine and Brister re -enforced. I also noticed when the wind/conditions were not ideal , I was able to break clays. Some using sustained had trouble in less than ideal conditions. This really became evident in the field, doves, quail and ducks really gave some B class and upper classes the fits.

Never was or will be a World class shooter, but I wanted to be flexible and adaptable to varying conditions. So I stuck with swing through, have used the pull-away (maybe not by choice;) ) Sustained lead and I --I can, but not as consistent.

--

9mm Mike:
Most blinds and such I've seen were to protect puller and traps. Recall originally skeet required one to shoot from low gun.

I agree foot position is important ( and about 4 or 5 other things one must do at the same time ) to effectivly hit.

I approach a 5 stand or walk through S/C the same way. I use my foot position to get me so I am just a tad past where I plan on breaking the bird. On doubles I gonna usually position myself for the second shot(skeet I change foot position at sta 3 and 5) S/C I'm so focused and using my periphial vison I can still use the swing through...granted I've had to use the pull away because I was slow. I have been know to call and with the delay, nail a bee, a leaf, and I'm birdie during dove season--silly sucker should know better than to be on S/C course anyway. :D

FWIW I used to swing through all 8 sta in my home with an unloaded gun. Decals of targets, weight added to my guns to about 10#'s , serious stuff I'd use a total gun weight of 15#. I would run a min of 100 swings a day. Been known to practice swing with a 15 # as much as 1K in aday.

Yeah the wife at the time thought I was nuts too.

[Dave McCracken]

Wow! Lots of good stuff here. A coupla things...

Ever note how sometimes one lost bird starts a string of them from the other shooters?

Do not watch the other folks shooting, your opponent is the target, not them.Exception,when coaching a newbie. Then, watch the newbie more than the clay.

Progress from the journeyman level is done by the gradual elimination of small mistakes and fine tuning of form and techniques.

In trap,for instance, I set up with my strong side foot a little further back on 4&5 to aid swinging on hard right screamers. On 1, I'm a bit more square to the house than 2&3.

And, after trying different hold points, I just hold for the straightaway from all of the posts.

The money crunch here will be easing slightly, and I plan on A, picking up a long,light,tubed barrel for Frankenstein, and B, shooting more clays than trap. 5 stand beckons.

C, taking a seminar or two.I could use a few lessons.

[CMichael]

Some good advice I got is when shooting trap to think of the gun as a brush. You are brushing over the target and shooting.

[AJ Dual]

I shoot ATA summer leauge trap with people from work.

I tried to follow some of the advice in this thread, and after the two previous seasons I shot, I got my highest score ever after not picking up a scattergun for 6 months, a respectable (for me) 23. :D I also wonder if the fact that each squad was only two pepole (myself included) due to the bad weather. Perhaps that also gave me fewer birds and fewer distractions to watch that weren't mine.

Of course, it only makes sense my higest trap score ever only counts twoards our teams handicapping in the leauge :scrutiny: sure hope I can keep it up...

It was cold and windy yesterday, and I was having trouble tracking leftward fying clays, especially from positions 1, 2, and 3, and my next score dropped to a dissapointing 19. But even that was higher than I had ever shot in my first rounds of the year coming to it "stale".

Because I'm taking just sort of a casual track on this sport, and economy was of necessity, I was only shooting with a stock 870 express from Wallyworld, and the cheap Federal 4 box packs they sell for $15. I tried Winchester AA target loads once last year and after the Federal cheapies, they felt abusive and painfull (wierd as I don't mind my more "painfull" C&R rifles like my M44 Mosin, and FR-8 etc. This year I comitted to using them the entire season from the start, and with nothing to compare to they felt fine. :uhoh:

Proving yet again the psycological factor in recoil perception. Perhaps even with physical signs like bruising.

[Dave McCracken]

CMike, that's the simile I use with rookies. So do others. It works, especially on keeping the swing going.

Good to see you again, Andrew. A couple things....

That 870 and Wally World promos will do the job if you do yours. Use one of the tests to see if the stock fits, get it right,and grind out those targets.If the kick still bothers you, check your form and then add those homemade recoil reducers we talked about on TFL.

Lighter loads/heavier gun=less kick.

Also, upgrade your hearing protection, plugs and muffs make the kick SEEM less.

HTH....

[Andrew Wyatt]

I'm a rifle shooter, and I end up focusing on the front sight.
I know this is a nono, but I'm uncertain what a suitable technique is with a GR sighted shotgun.

I've fired at less than a half box of clays, so I'm still on the steep end of the curve, learning wise.

[Dave McCracken]

That's a tough one, Andrew Wyatt. Here's the options as I see them.

Premount the gun and proceed while aiming. This unfortunately doesn't let you practice a fast mount. And, progress may be slow, thus leading to discouragement and loss of interest.

Start from low gun and accept the fact that's it's difficult, just keep grinding them out.

Get another shotgun of the same make and model with a bead sight. Use that for clays for continuity of "Chops". This is how I do it.

[Still Learning]

When I was in college I got a dream job operating the city's trap range. We hosted three to four registered shoots every summer. The best shooters always got on the clays the quickest--as Dave's friend Al suggested. I will be eternally sorry I didn't have enough cash to practice with those guys as much as I could have. Also of note: right before quail season our best shooters would come to the range with their bird guns and practice. Some of them were so fast we had pellet scratches on the roofs of the trap houses! And they broke the birds!

[JohnRov]

Well, we had a guy come in a give a clinic to some guys on our team. While the better shooters may get on the bird quick, he stressed not moving your gun a milimeter until you get a fix on the target. There is more time than you could possibly need to break any bird. this has helped me as I tended to want to move the gun fast so I would not get behind on the hard lefts and rights. but when I got an easy one I would move my gun right away, end up covering the bird too early, keep my gun moving and shoot high. I have also adopted window shooting which has helped me as well. You basically line up your gun where you normally would, then move your eyes so you are looking for the worst possible scenario, the hard lefts and rights. If they are thrown, you pick it up early, swing and shoot. If not, it is a straight bird, move your eyes back, track and shoot. For example, on station #5 you line up your gun off the corner of the house, then move your eyes up and out so you are looking for the hard right.

[sm]

Andrew Wyatt:
Dave, as always, gave you good advice.
May I also suggest the following:

Bob Brister's idea of using a BB-gun with sights removed, shooting ping pong balls. I have used this numerous times with new shooters. This is how I taught an allergist DR friend whom competed in rifle competition.

He even took the sights off an O/U to continue this practice.

Actually paid off when on his first tourney he lost the bead off his REM 3200,on the last box. He did not miss the last 12 birds without a bead. That last box was his first straight. It was also the last day he could ever wear that hat again--I saw to that;)

[45auto]

Lot's of good advice on this thread.
One technique that may help on not focusing on the bead:
Just before it's your turn to shoot(trap) expand your vision and view the target coming out- not too far from the trap house and not in too close either. A little practice helps with this.

When it's your turn, mount your gun, without "breaking" your view of the field. Feel your cheek(same pressure each time with practice) on the stock- call "pull". If it doesn't feel "right", don't look at the beads, put the gun down and remount.

The key is not to look(focus) on the bead when you mount the gun. If you do, you have to "lift" your eyes(not your head), and re-focus- sometimes you will re-focus, sometime you will not. Your eyes can't do both- well anyway! You can hit slow, predictable targets focusing on the bead, but you won't hit nearly as many and you will get "burned" badly on any variations of targets in speed, distance and size.

Regardless, you don't need to ever look at the beads, except at home when you practice mounting with your eyes shut, open your eyes to see if the beads line up properly. If not, you are not mounting properly and/or your stock does not fit properly.

Just opinions of course.
Good luck

[Dave McCracken]

JohnRov,I rarely move the gun before "Getting" the line. I do miss straightaways by shooting over, and I think I'll work on that next time I have a range to myself.

73, I would have LOVED to have been there! I may try a round or two sans beads once I get a new barrel.

45auto, I've been looking past the barrel at the area where I first can see the clay. This eliminates "Beadchecking". Before I'd mount, check the relationship between the beads and then look out where I needed to. Good point on checking fit...







Maybe a bit of discussion on hold points may help here, and I'm still not sure I'm doing this the best way for me.

Those os us who've been around this BB and TFL of blessed memory might recall my posting about switching to two eyed shooting. That's coming along, tho when tired I tend to revert.

I'm still holding on the traphouse roof, and now I hold for the straightaway instead of on the left corner for Post One, halfway between there and center for Post Two, etc. It means I have to catch up on hard lefts and rights from One and Five a little more.

I've also tried holding higher than the edge of the roof, but feel like I'm not as consistent as I was with the edge for reference.

[45auto]

Dave,
That works too! The one thing I have learned over the years, after pounding my head with countless 12 gauge shells is, besides the very basics of shooting moving targets, there are many ways to "skin a cat" for many different people.

I hold center post for all trap shots, just about anyway!
For me, it's easier to "catch up" with an angle shot, then to diagonally move to a straight away shot from a corner post- if that makes sense!

The body(swinging) can move much faster than any clay target.
IMHO, the catching up, jerking, panic move caused by the angle shot is caused by improper field of vision. The target leaves your field of vision, the mind thinks "oops" and the body jerks the swing to find the target and invariably stops after swinging too far ahead.

I also hold on the trap house roof, but ATA trap is not a main sport for me. The shooters that specialize in ATA seem to hold well above the trap roof, wait for the target and minimize movement. That seems to work quite well for many that I have watched and talked to. That technique is not useful for other shotgunning sports so I don't use it.
To each their own.

Take care

[Dave McCracken]

Sometimes, watch just how little the muzzle moves when one of the local legends is shooting. That high hold point and an economical swing has the muzzle moving but a few inches. Besides being more sure, fatigue has to be less.

Good peripheral vision can keep that angled screamer in sight even when caught napping.

Stance for the extreme posts,like I said, has to change a bit.This simplifies sighting the bird.

[mcshot]

I was/am a late shooter and use the mantra "track and Kill". Many have tried to get me to shoot faster but as a rifle shooter like Andrew I need to "aim" to have success. I also told the guys that since I was paying for the bird I wanted to see it as much as possible. Hope to hunt the clays again.;)

[Dave McCracken]

Whatever works, this works best for me but YMMV.