Shotgun pistols?

[ocmechanx]

Alright guys dumb question but I know that they now make 410 pistols, so do they, or why do they not make them in 20 or 12ga, besides the fact that it would probably break you wrist. I know if you saw off a a gun registered aa a rifle/shotgun that that is ilegal, but if it is registered and produced as a pistol why would that not legal?

Bryan

[ReadyontheRight]

Ah -- One of my favorite RKBA subjects. (http://www.ncc-1776.org/tle1997/le970315-03.html)

http://www.ncc-1776.org/gifs/autoburg.gif

The Ithaca Auto and Burglar
By L. Neil Smith
lneil@lneilsmith.org

Exclusive to The Libertarian Enterprise

The faded magazine ad haunts us across six long decades of stupidity and corruption:

"Here's the Ithaca Auto and Burglar gun, the so-called "Sawed Off Shot Gun" which holdup men fear because its load of sixteen buckshot spread over such a wide circle that a poor gun pointer, who would miss with a revolver or pistol ... is very sure to hit ... handy to carry in the pocket of an auto or in a holster ... Detective Harry Loose ... first induced the banks in and around Chicago to use it, then its use spread to sheriffs, police departments, paymasters, watchmen, express messengers, and it's a wonderful home protector. The U.S. Army demonstrated what American shotguns ... would do during the late war. This Ithaca Auto and Burglar Gun weighs about 1 1/4 pounds, it has 20 gauge 12 1/4" barrels, cylinder bore ... Price, including excise tax, $40.55."

The Ithaca Auto and Burglar was a veritable marvel in its time, a near-perfect blue steel and walnut "magic wand" of self-defense, against strong-arm artists and protection racketeers in the age in which it was introduced, ideal -- because of its light weight, moderate caliber, limited range, and short length -- for women, the elderly, and children who might require it, not only against house burglars, muggers, and the like, but against an abusive or incestuous parent.

If John Lennon had been carrying an Ithaca Auto and Burglar under his coat, the Fab Four would be selling live albums of their fifth reunion concert by now.

It is illegal -- or, more accurately and revealingly, placed beyond the reach of all but an economic and political elite -- and has been since 1934, because its 12 1/4" barrels are 5 3/4" shorter than federal law mandates, and its overall length -- roughly 20" -- is shy, by about the same amount, of the minimum length specified by a statute that should never have been passed or judicially upheld in a nation with something like a Second Amendment in its Constitution.

When I was a kid, my first lesson in politics arose from the fact that my home town, Fort Collins, Colorado, was "dry" -- which is to say that it was illegal to sell "adult beverages" within the city limits, and had been since Prohibition. What made it educational was that this imbecilic situation was maintained at the polls every year by a tacit coalition of self-righteously muttering church ladies like my own grandmother, and -- to begin with -- by bootleggers who plied their trade inside the town, and later on, by proprietors of bars and liquor stores that came to surround the "Choice City" in a tight ring.

If you understand that, you understand the politics of victim disarmament -- commonly and improperly known as "gun control". National politics of the 1930s were dominated by an unprecedented violence and corruption that sprang directly from trying to outlaw production, distribution, and consumption of ethanol. Every bit of the criminal activity -- gang-wars, drive-by shootings, summary search and seizure, asset forfeiture -- that we have come to associate in our times with drug prohibition arose, to begin with, in the "Roaring Twenties".

In those days, Al Capone was the most politically powerful individual in Chicago, in the Midwest, and possibly in the United States. He purchased city councilmen, state legislators, congressmen and senators the same way that I (the daddy of an electronic-age seven-year-old) purchase AA batteries. Others of his kind did as much of the same thing as they could. I leave it to you to figure out whose interests were really being represented in Congress in 1934.

The "weapon of choice" for creatures like Al Capone was hardly the Ithaca and Auto Burglar, or even the infamous Thompson Submachinegun, it was the lives of countless revolver-carrying cannon-fodder thugs, and the influence of crooked politicians.

Who was really protected by the Ithaca and Auto Burglar and the Tommy Gun? Shopkeepers, householders, and especially truck drivers whose vehicles were often stopped and stolen (just as Florida pleasure boats are today) to serve as disposable conveyances for illicit alcohol. One store proprietor with a "sawed off" scattergun could discourage three or four goons who'd come to collect. One truck driver with a "Chicago Piano" could run off a dozen highwaymen.

As surely as the Gun Control Act of 1968 was passed to disarm the militant non-nonviolent blacks who were threatening to overturn the political apple cart ...

As surely as the Brady Bill was passed because a certain variety of men -- well-represented in politics -- are mortally afraid to see women begin to arm themselves ...

As surely as Bill Bennett and Bill Clinton's rifle and magazine law was passed because -- in this dangerous age of multiple assailants, when a single individual's only chance against a gang is often firepower, and the ideal weapons of self-defense are semiautomatic rifles and pistols -- both right wing and left wing socialists couldn't bear the humiliation of Korean store owners successfully defending themselves against their clients during the LA riots ...

The Ithaca Auto and Burglar was stamped out because it threatened gangsters and hijackers who were the real constituency of the congressmen who outlawed it.

Now Daniel Patrick Moynihan crawls dripping out of his butt of Malmsey to attack expanding handgun bullets with a proposed 10,000 percent tax, exactly as he earlier attacked small caliber cartridges. Why? Could it be because they're effective for use by ordinary productive class people against the freelance thieves and muggers who, as a statist, Moynihan naturally identifies with?

Write Moynihan. Ask him. And while you're at it, ask the sonofabitch why he shouldn't spend his long-overdue retirement behind bars, for having tried to deprive every man, woman, and responsible child in this country of their unalienable individual, civil, Constitutional, and human right to obtain, own, and carry, openly or concealed, any weapon -- rifle, shotgun, handgun, machinegun, anything -- any time, any place, without asking anyone's permission.

Ask him.

Permission to redistribute this article is hereby granted by the author, provided it is reproduced unedited, in its entirety, and appropriate credit given.

[ReadyontheRight]

Others who are smarter than I will tell you why .410 is OK, but 20ga is not.

[warwagon]

Just a guess that .410 is a calibre,where 12, &20 are gauges.

[Okiecruffler]

The way the Contender and I guess the revolvers chambered in 45/410 get away with it is by having a rifled barrel, then a straight rifled choke to use with shotshells. After much litigation the BATF finally decided that was kosher. Now why you can't use the same logic and make a 4 inch rifled barrel 20g is beyond my vast knowledge.

One day I will own one of those Ithica A&B's if I have to remorgage the house to get it.

[Third_Rail]

If anything has a bore over .5", then it has to have a "sporting purpose" as decided by the ATF. Hence why a rifled .410 counts as a pistol.

[Okiecruffler]

That's right, I knew there was something, just couldn't remember what.

[MudPuppy]

What's the definition of "sporting purpose?" That is, what does ATF say about sporting purposes?

[wdlsguy]

Now why you can't use the same logic and make a 4 inch rifled barrel 20g is beyond my vast knowledge.

Such a weapon would be considered a "destructive device". Assuming your state allows destructive devices, you could make one (on a Form 1) or buy one (on a Form 4) after paying the $200 tax.

26 USC Sec. 5845
...
(f) Destructive device
The term "destructive device" means ... any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes ...
...

[Okiecruffler]

What caliber is a 32ga? :D Always looking for a loophole.

[MCgunner]

I seem to remember that there was a supreme court decision in favor of Thompson-Center arms on the .410/.45 colt barrel a few years ago. The ruling settled the matter once and for all for the Contender. Sawed off 12s and 20s are still illegal, just that it was found that the Contender didn't meet that description due to its rifling chambering of a pistol round and its "sporting purpose".

[wdlsguy]

What caliber is a 32ga?

32 gauge is .526". 38 gauge would work (.497") :evil:

[gbran]

About $700. Available in 20 or 12 ga.


http://www.serbu.com/sus3s.jpg

[cpileri]

32 gauge is .526". 38 gauge would work (.497") :evil:

You could also do one up in non-cartridge, blackpowder i believe.

[c_yeager]

Others who are smarter than I will tell you why .410 is OK, but 20ga is not.

Rifled barrel = pistol
smooth barrel = AOW

I suppose someone could make a rifles 12 guage pistol, but god that would be brutal.

[wdlsguy]

Rifled barrel = pistol
smooth barrel = AOW

Rifled barrel <= .50 caliber = pistol
Rifled barrel > .50 caliber = destructive device (DD)
smooth barrel = any other weapon (AOW)

[Kramer Krazy]

I recall the H&R Handigun in .410 is illegal. The NFA knocked those out of regular circulation, and I believe they are listed under the AOW section. Anyone know if you had a Handigun pistol without a barrel, and had a rifled .45 LC barrel made for it would you need to have fill out a Form 1, or would it just be considered a regular, single-shot pistol....like a Contender?

[wdlsguy]

Anyone know if you had a Handigun pistol without a barrel, and had a rifled .45 LC barrel made for it would you need to have fill out a Form 1, or would it just be considered a regular, single-shot pistol....like a Contender?

Based on this letter (http://www.titleii.com/BardwellOLD/atf_letter50.txt), it would probably be considered a regular, single-shot pistol. You could ask ATF to confirm this in writing.

[Hkmp5sd]

Anyone know if you had a Handigun pistol without a barrel,

The receiver is already considered a firearm and has a serial number. Unless you are making the receiver from scratch, you don't need a Form 1 to add a barrel to it. If you were going to add a 12-gauge barrel instead, you would need a Form 1 for manufacturing an AOW.

[unspellable]

The federal firearm control laws passed in the thirties were in reaction to a perceived communist uprising threat as much as anything to do with criminal activities.

The exception is the smooth bored pistol which has a rather odd story behind it.

At one time a device known as the Marble Game Getter was on the open market. This was a short barreled 410 shot gun with a folding stock. It was cheaply made and sold for a cheap price. Then the federal government imposed a 10% excise tax on firearms. The makers of the Marble didn't want to pay the tax so they argued that their device was not a firearm but a farm implement since it was commonly used on rats, weasels, and such around the farm yard. their argument carried and they evaded the tax.

Now comes the federal firearms control laws of the thirties. This law classified pen guns, palm squeezers, and the like as "other devices" and imposed a tax and licensing on them. Since the Marble Game Getter was already classified as an "other" it went into the same classification and dragged all other smooth bore pistols with it.

Their fate was sealed when the Supreme Court ruled that a short barreled shotgun was not a weapon suitable for militia use. (Ignoring the fact that the sawed off shotgun or trench gun was standard military issue.)

[Hkmp5sd]

The federal firearm control laws passed in the thirties were in reaction to a perceived communist uprising threat as much as anything to do with criminal activities.

The federal firearm control laws passed in the thirties were to provide "treasury officers" aka "revenuers" a reason to keep their jobs following the end of prohibition.

[unspellable]

Following prohibition there were still plenty of moonshiners to chase down. They were shipping moonshine to Detroit and selling it over the back fence of the steel mill I spent the summer working at in the late sixties.

Moonshining went into decline in the 50's and probably had more to do with new firearms laws to keep agents employed in the sixties and seventies than in the thirties.

I suspect moonshing went into decline in the 50's because legal production had geared up again after WWII (During the war industrial use sucked up most of the alcohol supply.) and people had the money in their pockets to buy the legal stuff. The guys at the mill in the 60's were southern die hards who stuck to tradition. Even today you can buy legal shine, I have a jar of legal taxed and all shine on my shelf as a curiousity. (I don't regard it as drinkable, smells to much like corn silage.)