CHL class longest 2 1/2 hours


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p35bhp09
February 16, 2006, 02:53 AM
I just finished my CHL class and I have a TON of questions. It was taught by Sgt. Greg Flack. Now before I get started let me say that this is nothing personal against him. So I don't want to hear anyone say that he is their friend and that I'm an SOB. I'm just letting people know what is being taught by the Multnomah County Sheriff's dept at their Concealed carry class. First, the Sgt. said that he never carries off duty. He says that he practices AVOIDANCE and that was 100% effective. Second, he said you may not carry at schools or the airport. He also said you can not carry at the Sheriffs office we were in. Anybody know if that ones true? He also recomended that we not carry at the bank. I don't know about you but that seems like one of the main areas I WOULD want to carry. Something I didn't like was he didn't even mention what to do IF you have to use your weopon. Nor did he mention how to behave when you get pulled over. It was 2 1/2 hours of looking at holsters and why you shouldn't clean your gun if it is loaded. Maybe all classes are like that. I don't know. That's why I'm posting. That and I have nothing else to do.

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dakotasin
February 16, 2006, 03:36 AM
how is he a moron for asking where he can legitimately/legally carry?

p35- dunno where multnomah county is, but laws will vary by state. where i live, the sheriffs office is in the courthouse - so i can't carry there. as far as carrying in banks, i don't understand why not... i used to open carry in my bank, but now it is concealed. never had any troubles.

sctman800
February 16, 2006, 04:14 AM
p35, sorry about your bad experience at your CHL class. When my wife and I took our class to qualify for a Utah permit we had a real good time. The class was app 8 hrs and our instructor was excellent, kept the class interested and we all learned a lot. Oh, by the way, we both have our Utah permits. Jim.

c_yeager
February 16, 2006, 04:18 AM
State-mandated training classes pretty much always suck. They have to be geared to the lowest common denominator and that can be pretty frustrating to a person who isnt holding up the short end of the bell curve.

Mad Chemist
February 16, 2006, 04:19 AM
[QUOTE]He says that he practices AVOIDANCE and that was 100% effective.
Effective for sure, but nothing is 100% except death and taxes
Second, he said you may not carry at schools or the airport.
I don't know for certain about airports. It would likely depend on Fed regulations. K-12 schools are technically legal for CHL holders right now. This is currently being litigated. Private schools with clearly posted signs would be within their rights to prohibit firearms. Community colleges appear to be OK for now while University status is still in litigation.
He also said you can not carry at the Sheriffs office we were in.
He's right, but it should be posted just like the courthouse.

I always carry when going to the bank.
As a matter of fact, I almost always carry. Unless I'm planning on "getting my drink on".:evil:

p35bhp09
February 16, 2006, 04:26 AM
thank you

FireBreather01
February 16, 2006, 04:55 AM
I think your questions and concerns are legit and you've made a good step by coming here to 'get on the right path'. As you have seen, many sherriff's offices have been mandated by their states to provide CHL/CCW/CABC? whatever - training and some of those classes are taught by guys that don't believe you should exercice that right, therefore they put absolutely no forethought or passion into their work. They get the requirement from the state in bullet points, and that's how they teach them! Add to that dry presentation their natural charisma, and hoooo-booooy! Are we ready for some fun:D

Depending within which states borders you find yourself you may be parked in a school zone/property, driving through said property, or maybe even within some school buildings, as long as you're in and out with your CCW and you're fine (I'm not clear on that one as there is pending legislation allowing CCW in some states to say pick up a sick kid and leave type of thing - I could be wrong, very wrong! on this one) Check your states regs.

Banks? most places allow them, some do not if a sign has been posted, and some states bar them altogether - again, it would have been great if the nice popo had some ready printed rules/regs/laws from your state for you to all look over and dscuss with the officer, or better yet - in my classes - a prosecutor!

What an uninspiring dweeeb - if you're going to do a job than at least make some effort.

Okay I assume you fulfilled the basics and obligations to get your CCW card approved, that's just step one. Now you need to seek out area instructors that are teaching much more comprehensive classes and cover these things in detail. And peruse forums like this one asking and reading more information. If you get past all of the bloviaiting (like I'm doing now?:) ) and I'm an expert or 'back in my day', etc, etc - you'll find a treasure trove of information here.

Although I know he is controversial to some, I can't recommend Mas Ayoob's Lethal Force Institute highly enough. His classes cover and cover a wide variety of legal scenarios - draw/don't draw, shoot/don't shoot, I've drawn - no shots -now what? He puts you in a post incident tactical frame of mind that will help you deal with the aftermath of any CCW-related event and if you're prepared tactically-legally, you'll be prepared for the shoot as well.

And there are many, many others that can help you on this road to discovery - seek them out and you will learn.

DO NOT start carrying until you get these things straight in your mind. When I decided to teach classes for credit, rather than just a Saturday aternoon fun-time, I signed up for the NRA Instructor Certification courses and just because I finished them I didn't 'hang a shingle' and start instruction the very next weekend, I took my time, took many other higher level courses, took some legal courses, and booked interviews with area prosecutors and cops/deputies to get their various interpreations of laws and how they 'see' things in the field and what would make them react one way vs. another. Only then did I decide I was comfortable enough to teach others these potential life-altering courses of knowledge and skill.

Good luck - knowledge is power! - get as much as you can!!!

El Tejon
February 16, 2006, 08:36 AM
p35, your concerns are justified, at least to me. I have only one answer for you: private training. Seek knowledge.

At least your government class gave you an example of what not to look for when it comes to training. Governmentally-mandated training is a joke and a fraud. However, we at THR knew this long ago.:D

wdlsguy
February 16, 2006, 09:25 AM
http://www.packing.org/state/oregon

1911 guy
February 16, 2006, 09:51 AM
Found out halfway through I didn't have to, but was there with the wife anyway. Two local cops taught it, did a decent job of covering the ins-n-outs of the law. The "gun" portion, though, was geared toward the lowest common demoninator. A diagram with labels like "front sight" and "trigger"? :what: Ohio law requires it, they did a good job of doing what needed to be done, but it is another example of how mandatory training is a farce. That's why I'm scheduled for TDI's handgun course at the end of April.

Henry Bowman
February 16, 2006, 09:58 AM
That's why I'm scheduled for TDI's handgun course at the end of April.The 3 day course, I hope. You will not be disappointed.

Lupinus
February 16, 2006, 10:06 AM
On another note to the point-
Depends on your state laws but-
Banks perfectly legal unless otherwise posted
Schools no
Sherrifs office no, basicly any goverment building is pretty off limits to my knowlage
Airports YES. It is perfectly legal to carry in an airport outside of the secure areas. Anywhere in the airport you can go without having to pass through security you are still legaly able to carry. But agian so long as it isn't posted.

Also keep in mind signs carry more weight in some states then others. Haven't checked your states laws but in some states you have to actually be asked to leave and sign or not they still have to ask you to leave the property. In some states signs mean nothing, in others it gives them more recourse to tell you to leave, in others seeing the sign and carrying anyway is illegal.

Go to packing.org. They are a wealth of information and should be able to answer most of your questions. I second a mention I saw here about not carrying untill your questions are answerd. Depending on where you carry you shouldn't be carrying it can cause serious headaches esspecialy in a municipality not CCW friendly. If you must carry do so only in high risk areas (downtown, bad neighborhood, etc) also normally a ccw allows you to keep a concealed weapon in your car, a good option untill you get your questions sorted out could be concealing one in your car.

Also another good thing could be taking another course. More often then not NRA courses from what I hear are great.

Don't let people who shall remain nameless discourage you, carrying is your right. Get educated on the responsabilities of it and then exorcise it.

Art Eatman
February 16, 2006, 10:55 AM
Sheesh! This is NOT what I need with my morning coffe.

Okay. Carry on with helping P35...

Art

sturmruger
February 16, 2006, 01:48 PM
I took one of the state mandated courses in Iowa. The deputy that taught it did a good job of covering all of the basics, but it definetly left me wanting in some of the legal areas. I did take a private training course, and also bought a couple of really good books on CCW. I am planning on taking the LFI class someday.

JJpdxpinkpistols
February 16, 2006, 01:51 PM
Mine was taught by someone else…but this was about a 18 months ago or so. That name doesn’t sound familiar.

First, the Sgt. said that he never carries off duty.

Personal choice…I am sure we can all respect that. If he isn’t up to the responsibility, I am glad he is honest with himself.

He says that he practices AVOIDANCE and that was 100% effective.

I am sure it has been…SO FAR. Avoidance *is* the first course of action. If you drive up and see someone holding up a 7-11, are you gonna rush in, gun blazing, or are you gonna sit back and call 911, keeping yourself safe? Avoidance is *ALWAYS* better. The only problem with Avoidance is that it only works if people LET it work…and perps aren’t always cooperative in that sense. ;)

He also said you can not carry at the Sheriffs office we were in. Anybody know if that ones true?

It is absolutely, 100% true. Buddy: if you even need to ASK that question, you must go back and read the laws at packing.org. Please. Do it NOW.

That Sheriffs Office is posted “no weapons” of any sort. Explicitly. If memory serves, it is posted on the right door of the double-doors outside. Simple rule of thumb: IF IT IS POSTED NO GUNS, THEN THEY MEAN NO GUNS, concealed or otherwise. If you CHOOSE to carry past that point, you are breaking the law, and are subject to the various consequences. Caveat Emptor.

He also recomended that we not carry at the bank.

That is a matter of personal preference, provided that it isn’t posted. HOWEVER, don’t be an idiot…keep it concealed. You WILL freak out the tellers if they catch you adjusting your IWB holster in public or checking your condition. That would be considered flat out rude and possibly inciteful. Further, if they hadn’t posted before, it will be the following morning after you show up flashing your Desert Eagle in a jackass rig

Something I didn't like was he didn't even mention what to do IF you have to use your weopon. Nor did he mention how to behave when you get pulled over

Huh…Our class *did* cover those things. Weird.

Our class was very good, very informative, was taught by someone who carries everywhere except on his day job (he was a reserve deputy), and while they did spend a full ½ hour talking about accidents and how to prevent them, there was plenty of other data to digest and chew on.

I do remember him going over the components of “lethal force” and what justified the use thereof. Spent a lot of time on that subject, in fact. Asked several very good questions, got smart intelligent reponses. That seems to reflect most of the class attendess, however: At the end of the class, one guy volunteered that he “don’t care what you say…the next person that so much as TOUCHES my I-ROQ is gonna get himself shot”.

:cuss: :banghead:

phorvick
February 16, 2006, 02:42 PM
This is where it is very difficult, if not impossible, to try to give advice on where and under what circumstances a person can carry when one quotes law that may be correct in their State, but not others. The first part of an earlier post is the critical part...yes, it "Depends on your state laws..."

For example, in my State, carrying inside a public school is OK if you have permission from the principal in writing (not as uncommon as you would think); further, a permit holder can carry in the school parking lot etc. when dropping off and picking up their child; and, local and State Governments (in general) cannot ban carrying in their buildings.

Yes, it is a mishmash of laws, and, as someone else pointed out. http://packing.org is your friend!

p35bhp09
February 16, 2006, 02:46 PM
I thank everyone sincerely for answering my questions like adults. there is one thing thank does quite frankly piss me off. Some people feel that some of my questions were obvious and that because I asked I am too stupid to carry. If thats the case then everyone on here is too. Because everytime I see someone ask a question I see 2 or 3 different answers to that question. Carrying in the Sheriffs dept. was not a no brainer to me. I saw nothing in the law saying I couldn't carry there and just because something is posted doesn't make it true. Same as the airport. From what I've seen around Oregon is that the Port of Portland says no to carrying at the airport but many people on this site think otherwise.
As to me waiting to carry until I get more answers that is a load of BS. I have been around Firearms all of my life and carried for four years in the military. I can and will carry safely and effectively as soon as my license arrives. And I repeat, If having questions about the law means I shouldn't carry then I better not hear of anyone carrying today. Cause everyone on here asks questions that are no brainers no someone elese.

MechAg94
February 16, 2006, 02:59 PM
Here in Texas the state has a standard test, and you get a DPS booklet that is a primer for the state CHL laws. Since it is a standard test, the class time is geared toward making sure everyone passes the test. The test covers the law, where you can carry, and such. Simple material but it was relevant. We went through the booklet.

Our class could be a lot shorter, but I thought most of the material was relevant. My instructor was a dealer/shop owner and he was pretty practical about the whole thing. Overall, it wasn't too bad. I have to renew this year so I may change my mind. :)

Pilgrim
February 16, 2006, 03:09 PM
I think I would be a little more cautious when it comes to 'ratting out' a government official who may have some influence in determining whether or not you get your permit.

First, the Sgt. said that he never carries off duty. He says that he practices AVOIDANCE and that was 100% effective.
His choice. I suppose he could make a case for not loading his duty weapon when on duty if he wanted to. Shirk his calls. Send his partner in the door ahead of him, etc.

My Sheriff in CA decided for a short while his department firearms instructors would run CCW classes. He wanted to know who he was granting permits to. After a couple of incidents where students almost shot themselves or each other, the Sheriff decided he didn't want the liability of running the classes.

Pilgrim

Mad Chemist
February 16, 2006, 03:17 PM
If having questions about the law means I shouldn't carry then I better not hear of anyone carrying today..

If having questions about the law meant that you shouldn't carry, then only lawyers should carry.:eek::rolleyes: :D

JH

fantacmet
February 16, 2006, 03:17 PM
packing.org is a good site, however IMHO if you are in oregon oregonfirearms.org is even better. On the Oregon Firearms site you can see the back and forth they had with the Portland airport, and the fact that even the legislature when asked has said yes you can carry inside the airport terminal, just not past the checkpoint. Interesting to note as well past the checkpoint is DHS jurisdiction. DHS has also said outside the checkpoint is up to federal law it is state and local. Oregon state law is clear about this. Any municipalities including Port of Portland can not make laws restricting posession or carry of firearms for CHL holders, PERIOD ors 166.170, the language is unambigous. As far as schools, public schools including community colleges and universities are completely legal if you have a CHL. It is not currently in litigation, just lawsuits being filed against certain colleges and universities.

Private schools are where the matter gets grey. Technically, PRIVATE property same as any store and they can prohibit anyone they want, however with the language of the ORS, under definitions above 166.170 many of them would be considered a public place and therefore the laws of 166.170 and subsequent laws would apply. So in private schools and other private area's I'd recommend you have a hotshot lawyer on standby, or at least one you know of whom you can hire if the need shall arise. There is information regarding the schools on the Oregon Firearms website as well. The section of the website all this is in, is the Activists Toolbox. Check in there. LOTS of useful stuff.

Rev. Michael

JJpdxpinkpistols
February 16, 2006, 04:49 PM
Some people feel that some of my questions were obvious and that because I asked I am too stupid to carry.

Hey...NO ONE said you were stupid. I never said you were stupid, nor does the word stupid show up anywhere on this page (except in YOUR posts).

I suggested, and STILL suggest that you go to packing.org and reread the laws.

Carrying in the Sheriffs dept. was not a no brainer to me. I saw nothing in the law saying I couldn't carry there and just because something is posted doesn't make it true.

Ok...let me spell it out for you:

If it is posted, OBEY IT. This is the surest way to comply with the law, and the the property owner's wishes. If you are feelin' snarky and want to give a lot of money to lawyers, or have the support of a bunch of friends that all want to help you give money to lawyers, then disobey. On private property, the worst that can happen is that you are ejected from the property and given a trespass citation, which says that you cannot return to said property. In the case of certain government facilities, if they catch you they will detain you.

Now...other people can point out the holes in the above logic...feel free :evil: What I have just given you, above, is the surest way to keep your hiney out of the pokey without giving money to lawyers.

Now...you wanna carry in a law enforcement facility that is clearly marked, be my guest...I pay taxes. Just stay away from the "Loaf" they serve in the county lockup. My friends who stay there often say its NASTY.

As to me waiting to carry until I get more answers that is a load of BS.

Carry all you want...legally or not. My personal feeling is that you have the 2nd amendment right without that piece of plastic you will soon be waiting for. BUT on THIS board, we do not advocate illegal behaviour, so I am informing you how to keep your activities within a lawful nature.

If you want to keep yourself legal, go read the ORS statutes. Failure to do so will only hurt yourself.

And I repeat, If having questions about the law means I shouldn't carry then I better not hear of anyone carrying today.

and I repeat (for the very last time, I must add): GO READ THE ORS STATUTES. You will find them linked off packing.org.

Mad Chemist
February 16, 2006, 05:27 PM
Last night there were personal attacks from another member within this thread. Art deleted the posts, thank you sir.
JJpdxpinkpistols, I don't think that reply was directed at you. Without the deleted posts some of the statements refering to them don't make sense. Does this clear things up?

JH

JJpdxpinkpistols
February 16, 2006, 05:32 PM
Last night there were personal attacks from another member within this thread. Art deleted the posts, thank you sir.
JJpdxpinkpistols, I don't think that reply was directed at you. Without the deleted posts some of the statements refering to them don't make sense. Does this clear things up?

JH

Sure does...sorry, folks. I am in Nicotine withdrawal, so am a little testy.

JJ

HerrWolfe
February 16, 2006, 05:35 PM
Hey P35....no need to get resentful; you are a concealed carrier (almost) which makes you one of the good guys. Some folks think they have to be nasty to get their point across. Don't ever think anything of it, or them.

Where are you located? Since I do not know all the counties in the US, makes it hard to find your location. :D

Packing.org has some good information, with law interpretations by state; be sure you look at any updates given daily. Also, the ATF recently posted a file that has the actual laws stated for all states, territories, possessions, wants and wannbees. It was maybe 450 pages; I can e-mail your state requirements to you if you want. It is very difficult to read though, as compared to the readily digested laws posted on Packing.org.

Name your poison. Am interested to know your state though so I can read the non-carry locations; I am curious to know if the LEO was correct!

JJpdxpinkpistols
February 16, 2006, 05:49 PM
Where are you located? Since I do not know all the counties in the US, makes it hard to find your location. :D Am interested to know your state though so I can read the non-carry locations; I am curious to know if the LEO was correct!

If he was going to Multnomah County, that would place him in Portland, Oregon or the immediate vicinity.

Mad Chemist
February 17, 2006, 02:26 AM
Sure does...sorry, folks. I am in Nicotine withdrawal, so am a little testy.

JJ

Are you quitting?

I need to quit smoking soon. I'm starting to fell the effects.

JH

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