[V-fib]

Before X-mas I purchased a DVD on folding knife techniques (3-4”blades) these pictures(caution graphic) show what a small knife can do.

Bringing A Knife To A Gunfight: The Gun Zone presents a set of graphic photos of knife wounds sustained by a police officer. (Note that the officer survived - none of the wounds appear to have penetrated body cavities, suggesting that the assailant may have been trained in a Filipino style of martial arts.)

http://www.thegunzone.com/mos/edged_weapon.html
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:eek:

[Boom-stick]

That has put me right of my lunch:barf:

[1911JMB]

Thats the sort of thing that should be shown to jury's every time a cop is tried for shooting someone who charged him or her with a knife, or a hand in a pocket.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=182980

We've been speculating about these photos for a while. Do you (or "The Gun Zone", whoever they are) know anything about how this attack happened?

Also, why would you think that an assailant trained in Filipino martial arts would be less likely to cause lethal wounds? Those wounds look like the kinda thing a trained FMA fighter would know not to do.

[xjmox14x]

These wounds look like someone just slashing wildly, not aiming for any priority organs, nerve, or arteries. Looks like the work of an UNtrained fighter.

[Cowgunner]

Jeez.........I thought the Kevlar would offer more protecting against slashing attacks..

[c_yeager]

none of the wounds appear to have penetrated body cavities, suggesting that the assailant may have been trained in a Filipino style of martial arts.)

Not a single one of those wounds looks to be the product of training in FMA. FMA practices slashing strikes to the tendons at the extremities to cripple an oponent, not body strikes that produce no benefit. FMA is really big on quickly neutralizing a threat, and that is not what happened here.

[hso]

Not a single one of those wounds looks to be the product of training in FMA. FMA practices slashing strikes to the tendons at the extremities to cripple an oponent, not body strikes that produce no benefit. FMA is really big on quickly neutralizing a threat, and that is not what happened here.

Bingo!

No one trained in FMA would have wasted their time with high trunk slashing. Cuts like this to that area of the body don't disable or kill, they are to punish. While ugly, none of the wounds except the one low on the right rib cage even was close to being disabling or deadly.

Considering wound placement, the number of wounds to the back, the absence of defensive wounds to the arms/hands this looks like an ambush from behind that wasn't intended to kill. The carved turkey didn't have time or space to get his arms up. I think that it's either gang, convict or (very un PC of me) racial or gay on gay or straight on gay.

[V-fib]

I didn’t write the second paragraph. That’s from a daily e-mail I get from Stephen P. Wenger.

Cowgunner, I doubt that the officer had a kevlar vest on. I use kevlar chaps when I cut firewood and the one time that I did make contact with my knee with the running saw the chain blade never penetrated. The scary thing is that the person wielding the knife took only about 4-5seconds to inflict those wounds.:uhoh:

[ghost squire]

Guys, I think I figured it out. Many thuggians use straight razors or simply fully sharpened razor blades hidden in their cheeks. This could account for the deep cuts but not a single stab. PS kevlar has excellent resistance to slicing but a knife will pierce right though most vests IIRC, therefore if he was wearing a vest you would be seeing only stabs on the places covering it.

IE, probably undercover cop.

Also I suppose it could be an untrained user with a karambit... or a trained user I don't know what kind of stuff you karambit guys do.

[Sunray]

With respect to any flatfeet here, cops are not the best examples of gunfighters. Most of 'em never shoot except for their annual qualification. The guy got slashed twice in front and thrice in his back. He did something wrong.

[psychophipps]

PS kevlar has excellent resistance to slicing but a knife will pierce right though most vests IIRC,

In an older vest...maybe. This rumor got started when a few police officers got nailed by ice picks through their vests back in the early days of ballistic vests. A knife thrust is simply too wide to get through the weave of modern body armor of any real protective value.

Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

[tellner]

Actually, a lot of FMA systems teach attacks other than slashes to the limbs. The eyes, neck and torso are all targets albeit techniques that target the body tend (in my experience) to be thrusts. The kidneys, liver, groin, subclavian artery and others are all part of the program.

[Mooseman]

It reminds me that being a cop can suck real bad. I'm glad they're out there doing their job so I don't have to.

[joab]

These wounds look like someone just slashing wildly, not aiming for any priority organs, nerve, or arteries. Looks like the work of an UNtrained fighter.There was a thread recently on straight razors,

Back in the days before the tactical folders this was the type of slashing attacks that were taught when using razors and small pen knives.

The blade of the pen knife was held instead of the handle to prevent the knife closing on you, with the tip used for slashing.

Not all fights were about killing your opponent, some were just to show what happens when you pick the wrong fight

[ghost squire]

In an older vest...maybe. This rumor got started when a few police officers got nailed by ice picks through their vests back in the early days of ballistic vests. A knife thrust is simply too wide to get through the weave of modern body armor of any real protective value.

Knives will go through plenty of different vests. It happens all the time, if theres not a hard insert a hard stab won't have any trouble going through (unless its some special kind with metal strands in it).

[rustymaggot]

in the last thread i saw here that posted these photos someone chimed in with a source of the photos and unless my memory is flawed, which it could be, this happened in prison and the guy is a prisoner.

i have no proof, im just going by memory. maybe someone else knows for sure and can quote references.

[scbair]

Back when I started as a LEO, my department "broke in" the rookies on foot patrol, downtown. With the walkie-talkie, a veteran patrolman was usually only minutes away, if needed.

I kinda grew up on the "wrong side of the tracks" (and give all credit to my parents & extended family for reaching adulthood with no criminal record!), and knew a bit about knives and streetfighting (I have a few scars as reminders . . .).

Late one night, as I rounded the corner in an alley, I walked right into a fight between two "street people." One had a beer bottle (unbroken, gripped for use as a bludgeon), and the second was holding a pocketknife (Barlow style, as I later determined). I wasn't easily panicked, and just ordered both parties to drop the weapons and raise their hands. The bottle hit the ground, but the knife guy spun and faced me, knife held low beside his leg.

I executed a very smooth draw (if I do say so, myself :o ), and centered the front sight on his midsection.

He suddenly understood my command! The Barlow also hit the ground. Aaah, the power of sweet reason!

Knife guy was somewhat incensed that I had actually endangered his life, and muttered, "Geeze, it was only a knife!" To which I smilingly replied, "Well, heck, it was only a .38 . . ." :evil:

[Griff]

With all due respect to the MAs out there, SO WHAT if the wound patterns indicate an untrained perp, devoid of honor or benefit of proper devotion to biomechanics and Kata? Sorry; you just can't teach unknown variables. (Again, my apologies to the Zen philosophers among you.)
Bottom line: Bad Guy 1, Cop 0. Mission accomplished. Learn something from his mistake so you don't make the same ones.

[pauli]

so what? well, for one thing, the cop lived. i can't agree that the bad guy gets a point with that in mind.

"stab to stop" and all that.

[hso]

Griff,

No one knows if this was a cop or an inmate or a corrections officer or some banger off the street or what (even the authenticity of the wounds has been called into question).

What it does is allow us to conjecture how the wounds might have been made based on the images. Since there are no defensive wounds (nothing on the arms) it doesn't look like a full on from the front attack was made and whoever did it wasn't interested in killing the victem. Other than that I'm only guessing that someone trained in Kali or FMA wasn't using the knife.

[bigjim]

I found out some more about these pics. This is what happens when you don't use the safety rods on your sharpmaker.

[RyanM]

With all due respect to the MAs out there, SO WHAT if the wound patterns indicate an untrained perp, devoid of honor or benefit of proper devotion to biomechanics and Kata? Sorry; you just can't teach unknown variables.

Because it's a false and potentially slanderous statement.

It would be like showing a picture of a guy who'd been shot in the arms and legs, with no wounds to any vital areas, and stating "judging from the placement of the rounds, the person doing the shooting was probably trained by Frontsight," or something like that.

[c_yeager]

With all due respect to the MAs out there, SO WHAT if the wound patterns indicate an untrained perp, devoid of honor or benefit of proper devotion to biomechanics and Kata? Sorry; you just can't teach unknown variables.

Its an important difference. For example, if you happen to know that you are dealing with a person who is familier with FMA and he has a nice balisong in his hand, you should know that you wont be visiting a hospital like this fellow did, unless he is feeling generous. Its important to know that the injuries shown in this picture, while nasty looking, arent actually that bad, and that a knife can produce things that are far worse than we see here. Thats why the distinction is important to note.

[Mad Chemist]

The edges of the wounds look a little too clean. Since the victim is not bleeding profusely, the absense of significant clotting is suspicious. :scrutiny:

BTW, I hope that anyone who feels that FMA and Pikal are inferior systems never has to face either one.

JH

[Griff]

Gentlemen,
While I appreciate the benefits which may come from a good AAR, I still think that many of you are missing the point, so to speak. More simply put, and to loosely quote Mr. Jerry Vancook: "A determined 12 year-old with a pocket knife = 12 years in a Gi."
This website may be of interest: http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifefighting.html
Best Regards to all.