Drop test results for P-32 and P-11


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yzguy
April 14, 2003, 12:41 AM
http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/droptestresults.htm

how I did it:
http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/droptest.htm

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Blackhawk
April 14, 2003, 01:34 AM
Glad you couldn't get a P-32 to fire by dropping it -- the hammer block must work.

I'm surprised that the P-11 fired more readily with a stock hammer spring pin and clipped FP spring than with a V Pin and clipped FP spring since the hammer has a greater preload against the FP with the stock hammer spring pin.

yzguy
April 14, 2003, 10:39 AM
yeah, that one confused me too, especially since the V pin helped with the stock FP spring.... I may re-test the clipped FP spring with and without the V pin just to make sure....

it seems that the hammer is the biggest influence on drop fires with these...

Ebbtide
April 14, 2003, 11:23 AM
Thanks yzguy for posting this here. I usually stop in over at the kel-tec forum and have been following your experiments. Good work, but now you are scaring me with your results. :)

ehenz

Master Blaster
April 14, 2003, 12:06 PM
Just curious but, the P-11 was the hammer cocked, and the sear failed?

Or was the hammer decocked and resing on the firing pin?

Does the P-11 have a transfer bar like the P-32? was the hammer resting on the firing pin and is that the normal mode of carry for the P-11?

I take it that this test did not produce a firing with the P-32, due to the transferbar, and the fact that the hammer does not rest on the firing pin right??


The 1911 you tested what model?,, did it have a firing pin safety?

was the hammer resting on the firing pin? (decocked) or was the hammer cocked, and it slipped off the sear and was not caught by the safety intercept notch?

If you did this with the hammer cocked on the 1911 did it fire?

Did it fire with the thumb safety on and the hammer cocked? indicating a total sear failure?????.

Note never carry a 1911 with the hammer resting on a live round!!!! It was not designed for that type of carry.

I'm trying to understand your testing, and what it could mean to me.

Thanks

Blackhawk
April 14, 2003, 12:24 PM
Master Blaster,

The P-11 is a true DAO. It doesn't have an intermediate "hammer cocked" position. The trigger moves the hammer back as it loads the hammer spring, then it releases the hammer to fire. If you relax the trigger, the hammer returns to its "released" position and unloads the hammer spring.

It does have a transfer bar analogous to that of the P-32. Its two functions are to rotate the hammer when the trigger is pulled to load the hammer spring, and to release the hammer when the hammer cam pushes the transfer bar off of the hammer spur.

The P-32 has a hammer block unlike the P-11. It's function is to prevent the hammer from contacting the FP unless the trigger was first reset and the trigger pulled. It prevents the P-32 from having double strike capability.

The P-11's hammer "always" rests against the firing pin unless the trigger is being pulled.

yzguy
April 14, 2003, 02:14 PM
The 1911 I have is actually a mod 1927 built in the US (it says .45 not the mm equivalent as the ones from outside the US are marked) around 1945 (going by the serial #) with Colt equipment. It was cocked and locked for testing, but there is no FP block in the original models so the weight/momentum of the FP was enough to overcome the FP spring (the hammer had no affect, the sear held correctly) in my case.

and as was stated before, the P-11 has no "cocked" position, it is a DAO and the hammer always rests on the FP except when you are pulling the trigger to "cock" it immediately before firing.

Yes the P-32 did not fire, even from 10 feet. I believe this to be due to the hammer block keeping the hammer off of the FP. I'll be doing some further testing with the P-32 with the hammer down to prove this right or wrong, but in any case, as intended to be carried it is more than acceptable.

Ledbetter
April 14, 2003, 03:38 PM
Thanks for the very informative page. It is not clear whether you added enough weight to the handle of the P32 to simulate ammo, as if it were loaded. This is an important factor I would think.

samualt
April 14, 2003, 05:47 PM
Wow, your new drop-test pages look great!

It looks like someone with a stock P-11 would do good to add the Wolff extra power firing pin spring. That would bring them to a respectable 6 feet for drop-fires. And, at least on my gun, there is more than enough power by the hammer to overcome the extra power wolff spring. It hurts nothing and gains you added security.

As to the 1911, is that a Hartford Colt? Was just wondering. I have the Sistema Colt. Both are 100% GI compatible. I was told on the 1911 Forum that all 1911's before about 1980 lacked the firing-pin block. I'm sorry to see it failed so badly though (2 feet). Yikes!
For the 1911 check out:
STI Titanium Firing Pin (http://www.stiguns.com/cgi-bin/miva?Merchant2/merchant.mv+Screen=PROD&Store_Code=STIGUNS&Product_Code=FP&Category_Code=COMP) and of course you know about Wolff Springs (http://www.gunsprings.com) for extra power firing pin springs.
:what:

yzguy
April 14, 2003, 11:19 PM
Actually the weight should not matter at all, except possibly for twisting the pistol as it falls (also depending on wind resistance), but the actual affect on the drop fire should not be affected by a change in pistol weight. The reason is that any object will accelerate due to gravity at the same rate no mater what the weight. The thing that will change the speed of the falling object is wind resistance, which at 10 feet I'm pretty sure is a negligible difference between the way I did it and just dropping the pistol.

Only the speed and weight of the FP (momentum) and the strength of the FP spring holding it back (plus any help it gets from the hammer's momentum) is all that affects the drop test.... (that is of course unless someone else can prove me wrong!!)

If you were saying that the weight of the rounds in the handle may twist it so that it does not hit barrel first, yes, that is true, but that (how easily it lands barrel first) is not what I am testing.

And with the P-11 the total weight as dropped was 1.5 oz heavier than it is as I carry it (12+1). I did not weigh the P-32, if anything it was heavier as dropped, but did not fire from 10 feet, so it really was of no concern to me.

The 1911 is a well used Hartford one, pics here:
http://www.1bad69.com/gallery/?path=/gallery/GunStuff/1911/&MaxCol=4&MaxRow=4

I'm not sure yet what I'm going to do with the 1911. I don't carry it, so it is less of a concern for me I guess... I'll probably do something though, but need to make sure I don't introduce light strikes. Now I do see the need for the FP block on them though.

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