US Captain with folding AK?


PDA

John G
April 14, 2003, 01:12 AM
It looks like Capt. Robbins is carrying a folding-stock AK in this picture from The Army Times website. Can anyone else identify it more clearly? No doubt it was a local pick-up, but is that allowed? Also, do you think this is his chosen weapon, or just a fun accessory? "Look what I got!"

http://www.armytimes.com/content/editorial/editart/041303front34.jpg

If you enjoyed reading about "US Captain with folding AK?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Tamara
April 14, 2003, 01:17 AM
According to various rumours floating around, a liberated underfolder AK is a hot fashion accessory in Iraq for treadheads who are only issued an M9 on the TO&E.

Gewehr98
April 14, 2003, 09:23 AM
The now-released Army POWs' statement that their M16's were jammed when they were captured? :(

El Tejon
April 14, 2003, 09:38 AM
Whatever they want.

moa
April 14, 2003, 04:32 PM
Yes, the former POWs said their M16s jammed. But whose fault is that? Did they observer proper maintenance of their weapons? My bet is they did not being rear echelon types.

In any event based upon their story, they were outnumbered and outgunned and if they were able to continue the fight instead of surrendering they most likely all have been killed.

Nightcrawler
April 14, 2003, 04:37 PM
Yes, the former POWs said their M16s jammed. But whose fault is that? Did they observer proper maintenance of their weapons? My bet is they did not being rear echelon types.

By all means, blame them. None of us were there, and know the details, so let's all ASSUME that they're a bunch of screw-ups that can't CLP their M16s, because that's better than insinuating that the M16 actually let someone down in combat, right?

Even with proper maintenance, when you get that much fine sand on a weapon it's not going to work very well. Especially if you're down in the dirt in a firefight, and are changing magazines while laying in the sand.

Instead of everybody hopping on a bus, heading to the hospital these guys are at, and giving them a lecture on weapons maintenance, why don't we wait and see if we can't find out more details about the situation, instead of simply ASSUMING that "it's their own fault" and sticking our collective nose in the air. It's sounds smug, as if we're saying "they DESERVED to get captured" or something.

Tamara
April 14, 2003, 04:45 PM
so let's all ASSUME that they're a bunch of screw-ups that can't CLP their M16s

Actually, were I to assume anything, it'd be that their weapons, issued when they arrived in country, had been CLP'ed to a fare-thee-well and then remained largely untouched since then.

I don't care if your autochucker was hand-built by Saint Kalashnikov himself, slather it with oil and expose it to a sandstorm and the chances of it running well are between slim and none. ;)

This is not to denigrate these soldiers at all. A troop of cooks and bakers and tire-changers gets caught in a sandstorm with their pants down and still sells themselves dearly before being overrun? That's pretty hooah in my book.

Nightcrawler
April 14, 2003, 04:48 PM
True enough, Tamara. But again, what I'm saying is that we shouldn't start condeming these guys for bad PMCS based on the few bits of info we have about the situation.

M1911
April 14, 2003, 05:02 PM
Actually, were I to assume anything, it'd be that their weapons, issued when they arrived in country, had been CLP'ed to a fare-thee-well and then remained largely untouched since then.We certainly don't know what happened and first reports are always wrong. That said, if their guns really did jam, I'm with Tamara. In the desert, I think you're probably a whole lot better off just running the thing dry, no lube at all.

moa
April 14, 2003, 05:05 PM
Nightcrawler, I said it was my "bet" that they did not perform proper maintenance. It is an assumption because I have not heard of any reports from the combat troops of large scale jamming of M16s or other weapons in Iraq. The combat troops lives absolutely depend of the proper function of their weapons, and they undoubtedly maintain a high level of maintenance.

I think my assumption is valid as any. And, besides, we probably will never know why they had as many failures with the M16s as it presently appears.

There may be more to the story. Stay tuned.

bogie
April 14, 2003, 05:15 PM
Hey, you don't need to be in Iraq to have problems with sand...

And it don't have to be an M-16 variant either...

Last summer, Midland, Texas, and the rifle had a Remington-style trigger. Gritted up, and I ended up having to (several times) disassemble and dunk it before I got all the crap out.

Windblown stuff gets EVERYWHERE. If you're in a sandstorm, even if you have your rifle packed in a baggie, as soon as you have to pull it out, you've only got so long before it gets screwed up. You can either have tight tolerances and good accuracy, or loose tolerances and crappy accuracy. I suspect that a Garand or M-14 would have had problems in those conditions too...

El Tejon
April 14, 2003, 05:47 PM
Last week at General Purpose Raffle in Tejas, my class was subject to fierce winds on the second day of the class. The instructors made certain all students protected their gear. (I wrapped a towel around my bolt and covered my muzzle).

Guy on the end with a bolt action Remington did not cover up. He paid for it by lunch when he rifle refused to function. He spent part of lunch unclogging his weapon and borrowed a towel.

No matter what you have, listen to your NCOs or instructors and protect your gear so it can protect you.

synoptic
April 14, 2003, 06:03 PM
It is an assumption because I have not heard of any reports from the combat troops of large scale jamming of M16s or other weapons in Iraq.

There was a post recently, although it seems I can't find it now, about Militec and how a couple units were using it because, unlike CLP, it dries and the sand won't stick to it like it has been to all the rifles over there. I'll keep looking for that post...

Selfdfenz
April 14, 2003, 06:03 PM
Ok guys.
Imagine you are over there.
There is tons of ammo and many, many virtually new full auto AKs everwhere you look.

Who wouldn't carry one around and pop off a few rounds if the opportunity came up. I would. I'd keep my US issue rifle handy as well.

Opportunity of a life time. A new AK and all the ammo you care to shoot. Honest to G. if I had the "loan" of such gear and passed a watermelon patch I don't think I could help myself.

Pal of mine had a different idea.
He had the thought that our guys capture a few of these and haul out in the desert and hide where some of the BGs might be lurking. We start popping of M16 fire and a ton of AK fire and for realism even an RPG or two into a sand dune or two. Might attract some of the zealot BGs in to join into the local jahad but woops .......its the Marines they come upon. B-bye BG. Might work kind of like a turkey call in the spring.

MN_Strelok
April 14, 2003, 07:19 PM
Anyone else see the footage from an urban area (downtown Baghdad?) on FNC last night? Our people were apparently flushing out sharpshooters or something (I had it muted).

I was surprised to see an AK in the hands of a point man. Watch closely if they happen to show a video with guys running out from behind an APC and moving along a wall.

cool45auto
April 14, 2003, 09:34 PM
Wouldn't you be worried picking up a gun you had never fired? How would you know how reliable it was? I'd love to grab one and shoot off a few rounds but I'd keep my issue rifle handy.

PvtPyle
April 14, 2003, 10:31 PM
Having come from a Maint. Company to SF, they know a lot about equipment that has wheels and tracks, but jack about their guns. I am suprised (and thankful) that the lot of them did not get killed. This is one of the big reasons I switched units, they pay very little attention to field craft and their weapons training. Not their fault, the blame lies with their commanders.

You dont hear about the CA troops getting killed or captured because their weapons jammed (and if they did the CA-combat arms- troops would know how to clear the weapon and get it back into action!).

TexasVet
April 15, 2003, 12:07 AM
In the interview I saw the former POW stated that they no longer had "any functioning weapons" and mentioned that a bayonet charge would have been suicide. I assumed that like Jessica, they were merely out of ammo. They were all on the same maint. team after all. And I really doubt that they were carrying the ammo load of a front line grunt.

ahadams
April 15, 2003, 12:40 AM
uh guys, one of the national news sites carried over the weekend carried a pic of a USAF type using the same sort of AK "in order to test it and save ammo for his issue weapon" - in other words there was a ton of ammo around and they were having to deal with human wave attacks in baghdad so he figured 'why not?'...bet that's the sort of thinking of the captain in question as well..

besides AK's work, even with sand in them [but then so did M14's]

Tamara
April 15, 2003, 12:45 AM
besides AK's work, even with sand in them [but then so did M14's]

An oily weapon exposed to sand will choke.

Accounts of Iwo Jima are rife with tales of jammed Garands, BAR's and Thompsons from the fine volcanic sand.

When we start issuing phased plasma rifles in the 40-watt range that contain no moving parts, guns will stop jamming (and start having blown capacitors or some other equally annoying malady ;) ).

Keith
April 15, 2003, 12:38 PM
Baloney!!!!!!

If you had a pickup truck gun hanging in your rear window for a year and it failed when you finally pulled it out to shoot at something, you'd buy another style of rifle. Yet, when we discuss the M16, many people are willing to blame the troops for "failing to maintain" the rifle properly!

I don't buy it. If a gun won't run dirty, it's broke.

The M16 has been broke since it was first introduced. The round is a poor manstopper (read the accounts from Mogadishu...) and the rifle itself fails to function under any conditions less than optimal.

The only fear I have is that when it's time to replace it, instead of taking the best from proven designs like the AK, we'll create some complex nightmare of a weapon like the SA80 that functions even more poorly than the M16.

We should swallow our pride and take the best elements of the AK and start making a rifle based on that design. Mr. Kalashnikof will be happy to get the royalties and I (as a taxpayer) will be happy to pay them.

Keith

moa
April 15, 2003, 04:53 PM
Keith, in the book "Blackhawk Down" about the Mogadishu fight one sergeant complained about .223 not being a man stopper after he thought he had shot, and did not immediately drop, a number of Somalis. And one other sergeant carried an 7.62 mm M14 for the same reason, if I remember correctly.

In the book "We Were Soldiers" about the Il Drang battle in Vietnam, one GI remembers shooting about 10 or 15 NVA regulars in a row. He thought it interesting that when the NVA were hit they would either just slump down to the ground, or act like they had been hit by a truck.

But the interesting thing about the .223 is the Fackler study of various military rounds, and the wounds they cause. According to Fackler, the .223 is a very nasty round because of its tendency when traveling at about 2700+ feet per second of coming apart in numerous pieces and causing very damaging wounds.

The D.C. sniper/s killed 10 of 13 people with a single shot of their .223 at fairly close ranges. The last person the sniper/s killed was Conrad Johnson, who was hit in the liver. The doctor who operated on Johnson said that he had never seen a liver with that much damage.

Not too long ago, someone on THR mentioned that there was an international movement to get the .223 banned from military use.

Of course, one of the good things about an M16A2 is that it is a very accurate rifle. That is not something that can be said about an AK47.

Apple a Day
April 15, 2003, 05:28 PM
AK might be newly "acquired" and on its way back to be disposed of. I can't see his right hand, which may be holding his M-16, unslung.

4v50 Gary
April 15, 2003, 05:41 PM
What M1911 says about CLP. Same for artic conditions. No lube at all. Run them oil free (or how about the dry carbon lube?). The M-16 works, but you gotta know about the environmental impact on the gun (EIG).

Sidenote: the bullet used in Viet Nam was 55 grain and had the slower 1-12" twist. Meant to be unstable once it hits. The heavier 63 grain bullet using the 1-7" or 1-9" twist bores right through. Much more stable and good for longer range shots, but not very good from the shorter barrel M-4 (Blackhawk Down).

BTW, I'd be a smiling captain too if I had an underfolder AK on me. Just a souvenir and not a condemnation of Stoner's design.

WilderBill
April 15, 2003, 08:40 PM
He could smile a bit more if they would let him bring it home with him. ;)

Kevlarman
April 15, 2003, 08:59 PM
Why is he wearing a CVC vest? Is he a tanker, or does he seriously believe it will protect him from small arms fire? :confused:

joeoim
April 15, 2003, 11:42 PM
I don't think they are useing oil. They are useing graphite, rubbing it in dry. they were doing that in the first Gulf war, and later in Afganastan, that I know about. When they started I don't know, but I suppose a lot earlier than that.

Joe

mons meg
April 16, 2003, 12:27 AM
I assume we all know CLP is a graphite in oil suspension. If you put a light coat on yor bolt carrier, it will dry in minutes in arid desert air...voila, you have a graphite "dry" lube. Shake the bottle before use, etc. Anyway, thought y'all might find the following pertinent.

From pp 61-62 of USMC TM05538C-10/1A, Operator's Manual, Rifle, 5.56mm M16A2: aka US Army TM9-1005-319-10

Hot Dry Climate - Desert: Use CLP to clean and lube.

<snipped>blurb on why deserts are rough on rifles, mmkay?

1. Dust and sand will get into the rifle and magazines. This will cause malfunctions. Give the inside areas and functional parts of the rifle a thorough cleaning every day and after every firing mission.

2. Corrosion is less likely to form on metal parts in a dry climate, therefore, lubrication should be applied to the internal working surfaces and functional parts only. Use normal amounts of CLP (ed. a normal amount in the TM is *not* defined as a big ol' glob) for lubrication (always shake CLP prior to use). Unload and dry ammo and inside of magazines daily. Do not lube magazines.

3. The use of overall rifle protection cover, muzzle cap, and spare magazine protective bags will help protect the rifle/ammo from sand and dust. Use these items when the tactical situation permits.

4. At all times, however, as a minimum effort to help keep out sand and dust, keep the bolt and ejection port cover closed, a magazine installed in the rifle, and a muzzle cap on the muzzle.

...

A side note, the TM also instructs the use of CLP for cleaning, but LAW for lube in subzero/Arctic conditions.

Jay

If you enjoyed reading about "US Captain with folding AK?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!