Quick question, 8mm vs. 54r


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noresttill
February 17, 2006, 12:34 AM
The 8mm round is more powerful and bigger than the 7.62x54r, correct.

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whm1974
February 17, 2006, 12:38 AM
I don't think there much if any diffence in power between the two.

-Bill

ghost squire
February 17, 2006, 12:45 AM
If you average out velocities using a bunch of different weight bullets and different average length barrels they are about the same. I think it depends more on the gun then the cartridge in this case!

noresttill
February 17, 2006, 12:49 AM
Thanks, Im trying decide between a mauser or a mosin.

whm1974
February 17, 2006, 12:53 AM
get both. shooters grade rifles are affordable enough to have both.

-Bill

noresttill
February 17, 2006, 12:58 AM
Is the Mauser "very much" more accurate than the mosin?

And yes, my goal in life is to have to be choosey on what guns I bring to the range, because they all wont fit in my Jeep.

Are there foldable stocks for either of them? I want to prove that a bolt action can be a "scary assualt rifle" :evil:

ghost squire
February 17, 2006, 01:12 AM
Is the Mauser "very much" more accurate than the mosin?


Obviously its going to depend, but in my experience, for the same price range (within 100 or so dollars) YES. The Mauser has always been more accurate for me, despite the fact that the barrel was pitted on the outside and it was cheaper. Ringing the 400 yard gong with this 8 times out of 10 is no problem with this with crappy surplus ammo. In contrast on the same day I was hitting that target only 2 times out of 10 with my Mosin, same for the three I was shooting with.

rockstar.esq
February 17, 2006, 01:30 AM
Seems like somebody once compared the two a while back...

OH YEAH WWII!!!

Just kidding, there was an article in a gun mag a year or two ago comparing the Mauser to the Nagant. In the end, they were neck and neck. It seems that the Mosin's action cyled faster because the top round is held without much tension. The Mosin also won for accuracy which was attributed to a superior front sight. It seems the Mauser pyramid front sight obscures too much at longer range. The Mauser had MUCH better worksmanship, trigger ,and wood. The Mauser bayonnet was regared as superior not that it changes much. Either way by the end of the article the two were so close in performance the decision was pretty subjective. As for making your boltie a "scary tactical" rifle, I've restocked my M44 with a ATI polymer stock and installed a scout scope. It now looks "tacticool" and it cyles like greased lightning, however the ATI stock is set up for either iron sights or a LOW mounted conventional scope. I'm currently looking into adding a strap on cheekpiece to raise the comb up to avoid whacking myself in the chin! But being a carbine, it makes sure I get a tan from the muzzle blast to cover any bumps and bruises!

georgeduz
February 17, 2006, 01:32 AM
yes the mauser,but you might want to invest in the mojo rear sight,a hell of alot better with a peep sight.

cracked butt
February 17, 2006, 02:25 AM
Out of the 4 mosins I have, the best one shoots as good as my worst shooting mauser I have, and I have around 15 of those.

The 8x57 is similar to the 30-06 in ebenrgy/velocity, the 7.62x54R is similar to the .308.

ConserVet
February 17, 2006, 02:46 AM
Thanks, Im trying decide between a mauser or a mosin.
Get one of each if you possibly can. If you have to choose go for the Mauser. IMHO its a better buy because you can almost always find 8mm or 6.5mm ammo at Wal-Mart and sporting goods stores.

Sunray
February 17, 2006, 02:50 AM
"...Im trying decide between a Mauser or a Mosin..." Milsurps are daft things. In my mind, the calibre doesn't matter. It's about the rifle. I don't care if I own it or not, when I can say on this forum and anywhere else I've shot one. If I own it, then it's about dies, brass, data and bullets.
However, to answer your question, the 8mm bullet(.323") is bigger than the 7.62 x 54(.311"), but they're within 100fps with 150 brain bullets so it makes no difference. Buy the rifle you like better and use the proper ammo.

cidirkona
February 17, 2006, 03:35 AM
IN MY OPINION ONLY -

The Mausers I have have been more consistant than the Mosins I have.

BUT - I still insist on having several of both in several lengths. You can get a either rifle for about $80 each here (on sale from Big5, etc) but cheap surplus ammo in the shops comes and goes. This weekend NEITHER mosins or mausers will be going out with me. Ironically enough the AK finally will. The scarsity of x39 has left me for just one week and my girlfriend will have a GREAT time on her first time out!

8mm seems a bit more consistant with the rifles I have, but 54R seems a bit cheaper in my neck of the woods (usually, definately NOT this week!). Both leave my shoulder sore and my cheek's smiling muscles sore by late afternoon.... I like the profile and action of a mauser better, honestly. No weird mag-thing sticking out into the trigger area, single stack oddly shaped cartridges annoy me when loading... I've had mausers with firing pin spring problems, but never the case in mosins. I've had mosins with bolt locking problems, but never in mausers. They're both cheap. They're both LOTS of fun.

Get both. End of story. :D

-Colin

noresttill
February 17, 2006, 10:38 AM
Thanks, everyone.

I will be getting the mauser. Then the nagant :cool:.

I feel I have a better understanding of the guns and rounds, now.

Most appreciative,

Jesse

ghost squire
February 17, 2006, 10:49 AM
The 8x57 is similar to the 30-06 in ebenrgy/velocity, the 7.62x54R is similar to the .308.

.308/30-06 are exactly the same with military ammo.

BillinNH
February 17, 2006, 11:50 AM
From a practical point of view, you can load a MN to take moose at 100 yards, if you're man enough to shoot the round. :) You can probably load 8mm to more than that but would you ever use it?

But the reason for owning these guns, IMO, is that they are fun to shoot and own. So get both. I have a m38 MN. I'm sure I'll also have a 8mm someday. My shooting buddy likes his Mauser a lot, takes deer with it at 100 yards with a peep sight.

Just get both and be done with it. You can't fight the gun bug.

Bill

bowfin
February 17, 2006, 11:51 AM
You aren't going to buy a Mauser and a Mosin Nagant without getting a Schmidt-Rubin also, are you?;)

Or are you one of those guys who says "I can quit buying and collecting any time I want to, I didn't really 'need' this rifle, I just wanted it."?

Actually, either, any, or all. Save some time and money for ammunition and range time, though.

Cosmoline
February 17, 2006, 01:07 PM
Out of the 4 mosins I have, the best one shoots as good as my worst shooting mauser I have, and I have around 15 of those.

The 8x57 is similar to the 30-06 in ebenrgy/velocity, the 7.62x54R is similar to the .308.

There's a ton of confusion between the potential load range of the cartridges and the ball loadings. Most 8x57JS ball loadings are near maxed out, and among the most powerful of WWII era military cartridges. They are more potent than .30'06 ball or 7.62x54R ball. However, that has more to do with happenstance and military decisions than it does with the potential of the rounds. Of these three, the .30'06 is the most potentially powerful. It has the largest capacity. However all three are about on par in standard non-military loadings.

Cosmoline
February 17, 2006, 01:11 PM
WHAT Mauser vs. WHAT Mosin?

Your average Turk Mauser won't be any more accurate than your average Soviet 91/30. Nor will your average Czech Mauser be any more accurate than your average Finnish Mosin. With military Mausers in particular you're dealing with about 150 types and subtypes. Some are legendary, some are weird, some are rust buckets that can't hit a pieplate.

Okiecruffler
February 17, 2006, 08:09 PM
I have...well let's just say I have a few of each. When I order them I can usually figure that the typical Mosin will be in worse shape but shoot a little better than the typical Mauser. But you're looking at a pool of millions of weapons. You never know until you get your personal weapon. Most I have are more than adequate in the accuracy dept.
There are those of us who in our reckless youth loaded the 8X57 to max and beyond. I'll stack it up against any '06 load out there if I have a good stout mauser action to launch it from. I didn't start loading the Ruskie round until I and my shoulder had gotten older and wiser so I'm not sure what it's true potential is.

cracked butt
February 17, 2006, 08:16 PM
Your average Turk Mauser won't be any more accurate than your average Soviet 91/30. Nor will your average Czech Mauser be any more accurate than your average Finnish Mosin. With military Mausers in particular you're dealing with about 150 types and subtypes. Some are legendary, some are weird, some are rust buckets that can't hit a pieplate.


True,
True,
and
True.

racenutz
February 17, 2006, 09:00 PM
Are there foldable stocks for either of them? I want to prove that a bolt action can be a "scary assualt rifle"

You need to get a FR-8 http://www.surplusrifle.com/spanishfr8/index.asp

Dionysusigma
February 17, 2006, 11:39 PM
.45 is better than 9mm. ;)

AKs are better than AR-15s. :D

But if I were to have only one rifle, with enough (pref. non-corrosive) ammo and proper stripper clips to last me until the end of time, and I had to choose between a Mosin-Nagant and a Mauser...

Not like either are going to break anytime soon. Not like one is more powerful than the other. Not like there's any difference in accuracy 'tween 'em. Either is as attractive as the other.

Not like I'm faster with one than I am the other--for me to load and fire five rounds from a Mauser, it takes me 13 seconds. For a Mosin, 14.5.

I'd have to flip a coin. :uhoh:

dfaugh
February 18, 2006, 09:47 AM
even though you've already made the decision...

I have a couple of each...

The Mausers have been more accurate for me, but I'm not sure the difference is even significant.

For most practical purposes, they are in the same class, power wise...Maybe with handloads you can get a bit more out of the 8mm...

The Mausers are GENERALLY put together a bit better (depends on which Mauser and which Mosin you're comparing)

The big difference for me (that no one has mentioned) is I don't like the "safety" on the Mosin. (you have to load the gun into battery, BEFORE you can engage the safety.)

A "good" Mauser will probably cost a bit more than a "good" Mosin, but I too would start with the Mauser.

iamkris
February 18, 2006, 12:31 PM
From a practical point of view, you can load a MN to take moose at 100 yards, if you're man enough to shoot the round. :) You can probably load 8mm to more than that but would you ever use it?


Are shooters today that much more woosey than soldiers of 50 or 75 years ago? Makes you wonder how millions were trained to accurately shoot all these "huge" calibers.

noresttill
February 18, 2006, 12:59 PM
You need to get a FR-8
I cant even find one of those. They must be pretty rare.

Are shooters today that much more woosey than soldiers of 50 or 75 years ago? Makes you wonder how millions were trained to accurately shoot all these "huge" calibers.

I think has to do more with the cost of bullet production vs. the amount of rounds fire possible. Ex. The M16 fires what, 400 rounds a minute? The mauser may get 20 rounds in that time (that may be a bit generous). So for every 8mm fired, 20 .223 are fired.

Oh, and thanks for everyones comments.

BillinNH
February 18, 2006, 01:06 PM
Are shooters today that much more woosey than soldiers of 50 or 75 years ago? Makes you wonder how millions were trained to accurately shoot all these "huge" calibers.

I can't speak for others but _I'M_ more woosy than I was 50 years ago. :)

Besides, I imagine most moose loads run a bit harsher than the normal military load. The heavy ball (174 grain) surplus is pretty hefty to shoot but for moose I would go for a heavier load with a similar velocity. FWIW, Lyman's 48th recommends a "most accurate" load for 174 grains that yields 2515 fps and for 180 grains they recommend one at 2542 fps. Pressures weren't listed.

Bill

Firehand
February 18, 2006, 01:22 PM
The biggest difference I've found- consistently- as far as accuracy is the Mauser trigger is easier to clean up, and has a nice, consistent two-stage pull. MN rifles mostly tend to either be a long pull with 'bang' at the end, or fairly short and clean. Only one I've ever fired with an actual two-stage pull was a Pu sniper.

Ash
February 18, 2006, 03:32 PM
You can get a good two stage on M28/30's and on many M39's. My SAKO M39 has a great two stage.

Ash

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