[Boats]

During an idle moment today I thought of my brother, who by circumstance lives in Britain. I found myself thinking about what I'd use for home defense there since firearms, even single shot shotguns, are a hassle to own or train with due to restrictive possession and storage laws.

Awhile ago he and I had a discussion about what he uses. I will reveal it later, but the problem is a tricky one.

Anything that requires a swinging arc is a poor indoor weapon. Whether it is hanging up a flail in the drywall or sticking the katana into the ceiling, anything requiring space to wield to maximum effect is difficult to employ in the modern castle.

Most effective impact weapons require the clearance to swing them with a lot of force for max effect.

Conversely, anything shorter and handier brings the contact distance down. It might be great to use a gladius length short sword, but you'd have to close and expose yourself more readily to counterattack.

It probably wouldn't be my first choice, but my brother has opted for his Martin Mamba recurve bow at 65# draw weight and a hunting broadheaded arrow as his "bump in the night" weapon. As he explained it to me. He simply strings the bow before bed. The quiver is nearby. If he must retrieve this weapons system, he grabs an arrow and leaves the quiver. The arrow is a CQB weapon in its own right if he chokes up on the shaft, and the bow can give him the option to cover or shoot at distance. When I asked about what the authorities might think if he punctured somebody with a broadhead, he claimed to not care as he wouldn't mind being deported. Alas, he loves his wife and kids more than he does about bugging out of Nerfland, so he makes due.:o

He says to his friends that Blair can have his bow when Labour pries it from his cold dead fingers. His UK friends get it as a riff on the NRA and a tip of the cap to the legendary bowmen of English history. I think the joke is rather pathetic commentary on the degenerate nature of English society.

[doc jake]

Don’t be thinking all us British are like what the politicians would have you believe. Some of us still hold with it’s my castle no matter how small it is attitude.

As to personal defence for “serious social occasions when entertain at home” I am looking at a bill hook. Think halberd with an axe type shank. Cold steal make a nice looking one, theirs has a longer shank more like a pike. Not sure if I can just get the head sent over here.

The original bill hooks were basically a peasant’s field tool that doubled as a weapon in time of war. Think axe blade for a chopping stroke, spike for stabbing, hook for trapping moves and the shank is short enough for a butt stroke.
:cuss:

[hso]

"It probably wouldn't be my first choice, but my brother has opted for his Martin Mamba recurve bow at 65# draw weight and a hunting broadheaded arrow as his "bump in the night" weapon."

I'll go one further and say that it's a poor choice unless he's got the skills of a Lord of the Rings character.

You say that something you have to swing is a poor choice for inside the house and I'd agree with you with the following caviet.

Fighters don't swing with wide arcs unless they're hiding behind a shield. Raising your arm exposing your arm pit, underside of the arm and upper torso would result in some quick opponent with a dagger or short sword plunging into your vitals.

Tell your brother to find a FMA school and learn to handle a barong. The elbows are kept tucked in close to protect the vitals and the power derives from treating the arm and weapon almost as a segmented weapon so that the short sword comes whipping to the enemy. Once he starts to learn how to handle the weapon he can substitute a less obvious weapon for the short sword.

[Boats]

I know what a bill is:

http://www.armor.com/images/pole030a.jpg

But I think a pole arm would be unweildy.

This falchion might be a better choice, but rather expensive at $1100.00 It's a real sword though.

http://www.armor.com/images/sword158a.jpg

[50caliber123]

A Lightsaber, of course!:rolleyes:

[hso]

Poleaxes would be a very poor choice. A spear would work in a house if the training was taken. A falchon is about the right size, but an $1100 falchon doesn't make you any more dead than a $300 one any more than a $1100 handgun makes you more dead than a $300 one.

A Cas Iberia Barong or Bolo will do as well for $70 and the additional $200 will get him the training to put it to use without looking like a boob holding onto a short sword lodged in a wall.

[wheelgunslinger]

I've been into archery (recurve then compound and now recurve again) since age 12. I'm 33. So, I'm a beginner.

A bow is a ranged weapon. It's not a great self defense weapon in CQB.
He would need to be able to practice point shooting out to about 15 meters to be able to use it in a darkened residence (depending on apartment/house size...) which isn't impossible. But, it's tough if you don't practice very frequently.
A bow for home defense requires lots of practice to be proficient. And, especially so if you're shooting a broadhead on the end of that arrowshaft.

This is not to say it can't be done, and done well. My bow is part of my defense system. I practice every other day though.
Pairing it with a fighting knife or some of the suggested weapons here wouldn't be a bad idea.

[50 Freak]

Someone on this board suggested a stick with a peice of poo on it.

I agree....

[JShirley]

I used to practice using a 7' staff in an apartment with 8' ceilings. I wouldn't recommend it for everyone, but with a little training, a 4-5' staff would be an excellent choice...and, no, one doesn't have to "swing" it to be effective. (Ever used a pool cue?)

John

[JohnKSa]

WARNING! BEFORE reading farther, please read the disclaimer at the end of the post.

A big knife or a short sword would be very hard to beat--it's probably the best balance of practicality, lethality and intimidation.

[Sunray]

"...A falchon(sic)..." A falchion was designed to cut/smash through armour. The short sword Boats(no offense intended) posted isn't a falchion. Picture a bowie knife with a two foot long, 3" at its widest, blade, 3/16 to 1/4 inch thick. A big thick machete with a broad sword hilt is a falchion.
A bow, any bow with any arrow, is useless inside. Takes constant practice to have and keep the upper body tone required. Especially for a 65 pound bow.
In a house, three feet of ash or oak would be better. Not as good as a dog of any size though. Criminals fear dogs more than anything else other than getting caught. Fido is extremely territorial and doubles as a fire alarm.

[RyanM]

I'd probably prefer a halfspear (maybe 3-4 feet in length), with whatchamacallits that prevent the blade from sticking in too deep. That way you can not only stab the guy, but you can push him away, as well. You can also use bayonet/halfsword techniques with a short spear.

[Moples]

Arms & Armor does call that a falchion, but a little short and gaudy for my tastes. Are you thinking a slightly shorter version of this (http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/nextgen/sword-medieval-vassal-falchion.htm) ? Personally I think their Grossemesser (http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/nextgen/sword-grossemesser-meister.htm) would be pretty good. Maybe a crossbow and some kind of simple club or machete would be better though.

[doc jake]

I live in a big solid stone house built to keep "foot pads" out. Still want a haberd Head mounted on a 3 - 4 foot shank. Always been a Wagner music and big axe mentality round here.

[Working Man]

http://www.armouronline.com/content/view/obrazek/1052

[Soap]

I would also say that a bow is a poor choice. Say for example he gets a shot off at an attacker that is about to split his skull with a cricket bat; the arrow will go right through the BG and he will probably complete his swing right into your brother's skull. The bow does not have instant stopping power.

I'd go with a Helle's Belle. You can use it to stick, slash, backcut, draw cut, and on and on. Although I love kukris and barongs, they are not as versatile as the Belle IMHO.

[azrael]

I dislike the bow...Even though I have alot of cherokee indian blood in me, I just am unable to channel my ancestors enough to hit anything except MAYBE the ground if i shoot at the sky..

My personal weapon if I dont have a gun?? My 15" AK...Blade is long enough to give someone some serious love, and short enough not to disquailify it from hallway fun..

OR how about something completely different from anything that has been suggested?? MY heros personal weapon of choice

The CHAINSAW

yup the common chainsaw...More fun than an ax and you can use the noise of it to disorient the intruder...Keep the blade well sharpened and have it ready to go at a moments notice...A decent 12"blade chainsaw is the best of both worlds as far as portability and destructiveness..unlike a bow, you do not have to be master of the saw-kata (I am!) to be effective

No where not even in BRITIAN is the chainsaw outlawed..I even carry a small one in my truck and I have never NOT ONCE been questioned about it

1 problem with using the saw is your brothers ability to love...he would have to love the violence he would impart upon his opponant..If he cannot then he wouldnt be nearly as effective as he could be...

unpleasant dreams:evil:

[Pilot]

Diet, exercise and a good pair of running shoes.

[LawDog]

Katzbalger (http://www.myarmoury.com/review_aa_katz.html)

Designed to be used in a close-packed formation of pikemen, the katzbalger shold certainly be at home in a hallway.

LawDog

[RyanM]

Diet, exercise and a good pair of running shoes.

Those are nice, but a man shouldn't have to run away in his own home...

[hso]

Guys, considering Boats's brother is in the UK we should be looking for either farm implements, the presence of which would not be suspicious, that fit the bill (no pun intended, of course) or decorating with the spears/short swords suitable for close quarters work.

The fact that he's an American probably won't provide any protection against the insane laws in the UK. If he kills or maims a troll breaking into his house he's going to be treated just like a subject of the queen and won't get the option of being thrown out of the country.

I like the dog idea a lot. Four-footed alarms are very dependable and not subject to suspecion.

Boats,

Is he in the city or country? Is he in a flat or row house or free-standing home? Old or new? The idea is to pick something for a weapon that would not stand out in the setting. If he's got a garden then he's got tons of options considering many farm implements became adapted as weapons. If he's in an old house he might put up a decorative display with a shield and a sword and hammer. If he's in a flat he may want to put up an African shield and short spear. The idea is that there's plenty of weapons for close in inside tight spaces, but the aftermath of protecting his family has to be addressed also.

[hso]

Diet, exercise and a good pair of running shoes.

Pilot,

You might want to read the thread ("Alas, he loves his wife and kids more than he does about bugging out") before suggesting the man put himself in the best condition to abandon his wife and children to a gang breaking into his house.:scrutiny:

[JShirley]

The bow does not have instant stopping power.


Almost nothing does.

John

[Pilot]

Pilot,

You might want to read the thread ("Alas, he loves his wife and kids more than he does about bugging out") before suggesting the man put himself in the best condition to abandon his wife and children to a gang breaking into his house.:scrutiny:


Hey, as long as he's faster than the wife and kids, no worries. :)

I should have read it more thoroughly, but I think anything other than a gun for home defense is lousy. I understand this is not an option in the UK and they're banning knives there also. Sigh.

[p35]

How about a rigger's ax?

http://www.vaughanmfg.com/prof_frameset.html

The one on my mantlepiece is there simply to split kindling, but I'm sure anyone hit with it would never forget the experience...

I like machetes, too, since you can swing away without measuring the swing to be sure the blade hits the limb. I'm talking about trees, of course, but I suppose the skills you develop in a few weekends of brush clearing might be useful in an emergency.

[JShirley]

You know, if it hasn't been mentioned yet, an extremely bright and large flashlight (such as the one Black Bear makes, that I drop-tested yesterday- see thread) is the first thing you need to have.

Besides "lighting up the light", a truly bright light can temporarily halt and disorient a foe, especially in the dark at close range. If you're close enough, a large light can also be used as an expedient impact tool.

Yes, other purpose-built tools may be better for certain things, but if you don't have a good, extremely bright flashlight, you should make that your first defensive purchase.

John

[black bear]

I have something that will work well in the UK if I were to move there, and still will be legal to posess.

It is the MAG 951 with the Crenalleted bezel and the Quick Detach Swivel, the MAG 951 torch will output 951 lumens (almost twice as much as a Surefire M-6) so you blind them first, them you can hit them over the head with the flashllight heavy head of stainless steel bezel if you prefer the tonking method or you can use the Crenalleted bezel as a gouging weapon and go for the eyes.

The weapon is 13 inches long and quite heavy and sturdy with its complement of battery carrier and 9 AA batteries, it makes a GREAt distance weapon when swinged by the sling that is attached to the Quick Detach Swivel.

Let me see if the pictures can do the explanation for me:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/blackbear11784/bezelsteel.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/blackbear11784/5554.jpg

It even can be taken out of the house in England when you go for a stroll.

Bet I can go thru Custom with the torch at Heathrow without a hitch.

regards
black bear

[JShirley]

I'm really very serious about the necessity of light.

Even if you don't get a large "bonking size" light, you should still get a powerful handheld torch. Even if you never use it defensively, you'll still get lots of use out of it, and you will use it in emergencies, regardless of the nature of the emergency: folks just need light.

Juan, personally, I'm not a big fan of crennelated bezels, but the glow inserts to locate the light in the dark are pretty nifty. :)

John

[mrmeval]

I'd think a short spear would be good.

I have a pre-Christian Mainz pattern Gladius being made that will do well. :)

Some nice knives http://www.sharppointythings.com/knives.php

[MatthewVanitas]

Is a cricket bat that bad of a weapon?

I'm not sure that British authorities are much fonder of poiny-stabby things than of guns (Britons please correct me if I'm wrong), and I'd imagine that "assaulting" a burglar would merit more than simple deportation.

I should start a new thread on the topic: "Cricket bat vs. Baseball bat for Home Defense?"


Although the Irish might have answered that one for us. I was listening to BBC news back in the mid 1990s, and they were commenting on how odd it was that North Irish thugs had taken to kneecapping each other with baseball bats. My first thought was that such seemed a pretty standard clubbing weapon. Then it struck me: "oh, baseball bats."

[critter]

I think the idea of a farm tool is an exellent idea. No having to defend having a 'deadly weapon' around, etc. For a 'certain application' I have, I use a small military shovel, aka entrenching tool. It has a slightly 'V' shaped blade. I have put in a slightly longer handle (easy to customize the length to suit the need) and I have sharpened both the front end and the edges. Use it spearlike or axlike either as needed. I'd hate to have to face one!

A small hatchet, even a midweight shop hammer, might be handy to keep around also or maybe a small 'cruisers ax'. A good pitch fork with very sharp tines would be awsome. Maybe even a scythe in practiced hands. Ever seen a fire fighter's rake made with the sharp, tirangular teeth from a hay mower?

One is never truly without weapons if you keep your eyes open and your brain working!

[SkaerE]

although i do find the stick with a bit of poo amusing...

:evil:

and while almost nothing has "instant stopping power"

i would imagine a 18'' chainsaw would come about as close as anything.

and it makes a scary noise :neener:

its like the 12 gauge pump noise of the tool world.

[Mad Chemist]

Is a cricket bat that bad of a weapon?

I'm not sure that British authorities are much fonder of poiny-stabby things than of guns (Britons please correct me if I'm wrong), and I'd imagine that "assaulting" a burglar would merit more than simple deportation.

I should start a new thread on the topic: "Cricket bat vs. Baseball bat for Home Defense?"


Although the Irish might have answered that one for us. I was listening to BBC news back in the mid 1990s, and they were commenting on how odd it was that North Irish thugs had taken to kneecapping each other with baseball bats. My first thought was that such seemed a pretty standard clubbing weapon. Then it struck me: "oh, baseball bats."


I was thinking of the same thing. A cricket bat with the business end wrapped in duct tape to resist splitting on impact. It's not ideal, but it is cheap, legal, and better than fists and feet.

IMO, a mini Louiville slugger is superior to its big brother for indoor purposes. I don't know if they are readily available in the UK, but they are cheap and plentiful in the US.

+1 on flashlights. I take one with me everywhere I go. I prefer the compact high intensity LED type.

JH

[SkaerE]

howabout SUREFIRE's new "weapon light"

looks perfect for GB!

http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35792&d=1140391397

[pete f]

a machete or a riggers axe as P35 has said.

in most of the third world, those not fortunate enough to have AK have a machete. Having seen the results of a couple of machete fights when i was in guatemala. believe me you do not want to be on the recieving end. (we had one guy WALK in to the school we were working on with his left forearm attached to his head by the machete that was still embedded in his skull...he had put his arm to block the stroke and failed. He survived the surgery but succumbed to the infection in his brain.)

A Riggers Axe is a wonderful tool. Designed to be carried by foundation form builders it is a tool of amazing speed and capacity. mine resides under the seat of my truck when not in my tool belt.

For that matter. Even a good framers hammer would be an awesome CGB wweapon if you learn how to use it. apply a wrist thong to keep it attached and go to town. the hammer swing starts with the head sitting right next to your ear. A downward snap of the forearm letting the wrist just act as a hinge can develop enough energy to sink a 16D nail with one swing. I like the Hart tool hammers best. The design has been perfected for a thousand years. The new douglas hammers have developed a big following amoung the new agers building the timber frames and other new old technologies housing. I have ot admit they feel great and swing well. sharpen up the claws and you got a winner.

[KriegHund]

Best CQB weapon in the non-firearm category?

Chuck norris. No...wait..he counts as a restricted weapon...

In all seriousness, you cant get past a short spear when you in a hall way.

And a short sword as backup.

I actually have a 2' short sword i use (cant have a firearm yet)

[scbair]

In the days before I gained mental clarity, I was an assistand scoutmaster with my son's troop. On campouts, I was prohibited (by BSA policy) from carrying any firearm. Fixed blade knives were prohibited for the scouts, and frowned upon for the leaders! Being the suspicious ol' ex-cop that I am, I also pondered what non-firearm weapon would be best, if attacked inside the tent at night, or on the trail during the day.

Impact weapons (such as the hiking staff, are not really feasible in a tent (but are really great while hiking!). I wanted something that would prove effective at extremely close and confined quarters. That is, a stabbing implement! such a device could also be useful on the trail, of course . . .

For the tent, I carried a Western W49 Bowie, with the false edge carefully honed, and a razor-keen primary edge. It went out of sight (and out of reach) in the backpack, during the day.

For the trail, in addition to a 6-foot length of hickory, lovingly sanded & finished, I clipped a common folder to my belt. Well, maybe a Cold Steel Vaquero Grande ain't so common . . . If the Camillus CUDA Maxx had been available at that time, I'd have packed it.

Gotta say, archery tackle (slow, awkward, single-shot :eek: ) would be about my last choice.

[Soap]

Does his brother live anywhere by the country at all? I would think that having a pitchfork in the middle of London would probably label you an eccentric.

[wheelgunslinger]

If he really wants an archery style weapon, he could go for a crossbow. I don't know what the legality of that is in the U.K. And, again, he'd have to practice.
Overall, it's a bad idea for someone not committed to the practice of Archery.

+1 to the Rigger's Axe. Fiskars makes some nice lightweight hatchets with polymer handles too. I have a felling axe made in this pattern and really like the balance.

[Coronach]

I'm not at all familiar with self-defense laws in Britain, but it is my understanding that it is absolutely best to not look like you have "prepared" for an assault. :uhoh: Anyone with actual knowledge in reference to this feel free to correct me.

As such, innocuous items that double as pretty deadly weapons would seem to be the best idea. Cricket bats are practically ideal; anyone could have one, and you really don't want to get whalloped with one. I would not modify it in any way, unless that modification could be justified by its ostensible use.

Rigger's axes also would seem to fit the bill. I would not want to get hacked with one.

Mike

PS Ditto the light.

[Dirty Bob]

A good old kitchen cleaver should be in every home. Like the rigger's ax, it's not something I'd want to face. It's also light enough that a female defender can use one.

Anyone who doesn't own one should try a cleaver. Like me, you might wonder how you ever muddled through your cooking tasks without it! A great tool that requires no excuses.

Regards,
Dirty Bob

BTW, the title of this response is an obscure Cheech and Chong reference :D

[texascarl]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4581871.stm

In a land where the elite like to blame implements rather than those wielding them, you'd best be careful what tools you choose to employ. I like knives, but tools that currently fly under the hoplophobes radar are a good idea. Hammers, hatchets, machetes or hedging bills, cleavers. A Cricket bat or felling axe would qualify, if you've got the room to swing it. I prefer hammers, a long handled ball pein or cabinetmakers cross pein hammer by preference, or a drywall axe. Not the heaviest hammers I can handle, faster is better than heavier here.

Anytime you're using short range weapons like a cleaver or a hammer in CQB, you'll be glad to have a shield of any kind. Buy or build a small but stout 3 legged wooden stool, holding it near the seat by one leg gives you surprisingly good protection on the left while you're bashing away with the right. And a good place to lay your knife/hammer near the door.

[Deathrider1579]

How about a sharpened shovel for some "gardening" it would fly under the radar if anyone came in and went "bump" you "Just sharpened it for some digging on the weekend" you can weild it like a pike and keep baddies at arms distance.

Also if you want a true weapon I would say go for a thrusting sword like a roman short sword or something more modern with the same idea.

bladed weapons are prolly the way to go as they arn't as hard to use in a leathal sence. But if you have the room I would think a good ole fassioned mace would cause quite a mess if libaraly applied to the head, arm, leg, body of a would be baddie.

-DR

[AJ Dual]

How about a sharpened shovel for some "gardening" it would fly under the radar if anyone came in and went "bump" you "Just sharpened it for some digging on the weekend" you can weild it like a pike and keep baddies at arms distance.

Also if you want a true weapon I would say go for a thrusting sword like a roman short sword or something more modern with the same idea.

bladed weapons are prolly the way to go as they arn't as hard to use in a leathal sence. But if you have the room I would think a good ole fassioned mace would cause quite a mess if libaraly applied to the head, arm, leg, body of a would be baddie.

-DR

+1

A small sod cutting, drain, or poacher's spade would be a great makeshift weapon. Under one meter in length, most all have an almost flat blade with minimal dish that dosen't take a preference to it's direction of swing, and can be honed to a very wicked edge with a file and then a stone. (You're supposed to do this at the beginning of each gardening season anyway, to help it cut through turf and into the soil.)

Most of them will have a sturdy fiberglass handle. A small sod cutting spade can be used like a small halberd to slash on it's edge and corners, a poacher's spade can also thrust straight forward onto the pointed vertex on it's edge. All these small spades can be used with the flat of the blade in "less lethal" mode as well.

You can set it in a plausible spot, right with other handy things like a gardener's stool (shield) or a small claw rake (two-weapons, gladiator style...) and a pair of Wellington rubber boots to complete the camoflauge ensamble when you point out to the bobbies where you grabbed it from.

Just make sure you have a plausible garden...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000TX53K/qid=1140473550/sr=1-32/ref=sr_1_32/102-3051054-2531324?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=228013

[ocelot777]

Some good advice has been given here regarding the need for caution. UK law allows you to use "reasonable force" to defend yourself or others. Trouble is (what a surprise), no-one will (or can) say in advance what the police, CPS (about the equivalent of DA I think), judge or jury (crucially) will think of as reasonable.

There has been considerable debate about changing the law to give householders the "right" to defend their homes, families, etc. without fear of prosecution. The government declined to do so, instead opting to "clarify" the meaning of the existing by means of examples.

I found this quite helpful in that the examples did make some aspects clear (this is the link: http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/prosecution/householders.html).

But, I think it would be a mistake to assume that you would be regarded sympathetically "if you use something to hand as a weapon" and that something turned out to be an actual weapon (bow, firearm, sword and especially anything that is illegal to own, such as brass knucks, handgun, taser, H&K MP5 etc.).

I recall hearing a senior cop saying (more or less) that it was OK to have a baseball bat (not a cricket bat, funnily enough) by your bed just in case, but you'd be on thin ice with many of the weapons suggested (spears, for example). If you live in a town or city and don't have a demonstrable (and mundane) need for such things as a machete or a Granfors Brucks double-bitted throwing axe, you will probably be assumed to be a psychotic, sociopathic hoodlum and prosecuted accordingly.

I agree that UK law in this regard leaves a lot to be desired and I would give more weight to the safety of my family, friends and any other innocents than to some stiff-arsed CPS lawyer and their idea of what constitutes reasonable force. Some (most, in fact, I would think) of the "people" making decisions about this sort of stuff probably haven't been in any sort of ruck since that time at primary school (where they ran away crying to teacher after some girl pulled their hair):evil:

Having said that, *** is this "nerfland" business? Does it have something to do with the UK being "socialist" (as someone in another thread claimed)?:)

[p35]

What's a "poacher's spade"? I looked at the link, and it looks like a useful little spade, but what would a poacher do with it?

One of those Swiss or German military surplus spades- the ones with the fixed hardwood handles- is a great camping tool. I reach for mine constantly for all sorts of stuff when camping. Bet it would take a good edge, too.

[ocelot777]

What's a "poacher's spade"? I looked at the link, and it looks like a useful little spade, but what would a poacher do with it?


dig up rabbit holes I think

[Dirty Bob]

texascarl said:
Buy or build a small but stout 3 legged wooden stool, holding it near the seat by one leg gives you surprisingly good protection on the left while you're bashing away with the right. And a good place to lay your knife/hammer near the door.
Carl's right: a small stool is a good "shield". Don't forget chairs as a weapon/shield at the same time. Grasping by the backrest and thrusting with the legs makes an ugly situation for an attacker. In a hallway, this would be a mean "weapon" to face, if it's used aggressively. A child's chair or small stool makes a heck of a throwing weapon. I'm reminded of Marc "Animal" MacYoung's statement:
There's no good way to catch a chair.
Regards,
Dirty Bob

[middy]

"Nerfland" is poking fun at the weapon laws in the UK, specifically the knife laws and the new push to make pointy knives unavailable. Without a knife, hoodlums will resort to sticks and bricks, so, in response to the "deadly scourge of sticks and bricks", the UK will decree that everything must be made out of Nerf... for the sake of the children. :D

[ocelot777]

Thanks for the clarification:) -- I thought I was going to have to resort to harsh language (forgetting, of course, that "harsh language" was banned by Big Brother Blair last week).

Sadly, "nerf" is also about to be banned:fire:

[Boom-stick]

LOL when I read the 'farm tool' quotes, most of the population of the UK wouldn't even know where the nearest farm is, we're pretty much based around the big towns and cities.

Most of the stuff I have for HD would be frowned apon anyway, and for those that don't know, in parts of South London it's easier to get a 9mm semi auto than it is to get a taxi in the rain!! (handguns were banned nearly 10 years ago!!)

Where I live there is a shooting a week that doesn't even make the news, 7 miles up the road in Brixton there's a fatal shooting a day that again, doesn't even make the news, I only know this because of friends on the police force, oh.... and the gun fire in the distance. There was an armed chase, 1 mile from my home 2 years ago where the BG and been released from prison that morning and by the early evening had a full auto uzi:eek:
And shot up all the police cars chasing him.

As you can see, the handgun ban really worked, we can now all sleep safer.

Dan

[pauli]

perhaps you can interest your brother in a 'decorative' butter churn.

http://members.arstechnica.com/x/pauli/butter%20churn.JPG

hard to be a removable three foot hardwood shaft.

[Boom-stick]

Just for the UK contingent out there, did you now that if stopped by the police whilst carrying a flash light without batteries in it you could be charged with carrying an offensive weapon, but the same torch with batteries in, dispite being heavier, is seen as just a torch:confused:

This is providing of course, you aren't caught in the act of clumping someone or acting a bit suspect.

[Sgt Stevo]

I keep taser in my wifes Volvo. better then a stick with poo i think.

[Matt_W]

Just to clarify things here, in the UK you are allowed to own weapons for self defence without giving an account for them whilst on private property (as long as you are not tresspassing) or inside your own home. Article 7 of the English Bill of Rights confirms and protects the Common Law right to have arms for defence.

Granted we in the UK have very restrictive Firearms legislation but as far as non firearm weapons are concerned we really should not be too worried about what we have by the bed 'just in case'.

The carriage of weapons (in public) is regulated by the Prevention of Crime Act 1953, which states;
"It is an offence to possess an offensive weapon in a public place without lawful authority or reasonable excuse". (Section 1). The stated purpose of the Bill according to its sponsors was to "tackle the ruffian and those on the fringe of the community who would got out armed with a cosh, knuckle-duster or similar and terrorise others in the neighbourhood. Its main effect was to be not in the vast number of prosecutions, but the "in terrorem effect". It was intended only to "discourage" certain persons from carrying offensive weapons unless they had "lawful authority or reasonable excuse" while respecting the liberty of the subject.

The Bill only applied to the carriage of weapons in public places. Lord Lloyd (a sponsor of the Bill) reminded the House of Lords that; "It should be noted a person who remains on his own property may with impunity go around positively festooned with weapons. If he has a firearm he would need the appropriate certificate. His house may be a veritable arsenal. He will be committing no offence under this Bill".
Hansard, 14 April 1953.

Maxwell Fyffe (also a sponsor) assured the Commons "it excludes the whole class of persons who are on their employers property and doing their work. The night watchman who carries a bludgeon or a life preserver would not come within the scope of this Measure when carrying out his duties on his employers property".
Hansard, 26 Feb. 1953.

One can argue that the Bill of Rights gives the law abiding enough Lawful Authority to carry defensive weapons in public to satisfy the Prevention of Crime Act and in fact it appears that Police Officers derive their lawful authority from the same Common Law as the ordinary member of the public.

The Police and the Courts may well frown on anyone who prepares for a bump in the night situation by keeping a weapon per se but that does not stop you from keeping purpose built weapons for that purpose. All it really does is mean that you need to be extra careful about the reasonableness of your subsequent actions but that is not necessarily a bad thing IMO.

I heard about a case recently where a drug dealer kept an unlicensed shotgun for defense upon hearing his front door being broken down loaded it and pointed towards the doorway. In fact it was a Police raid and when he realised that fact he lowered his weapon and gave himself up. He was subsequently charged under the Firearms Act with possesion of a firearm with intent to endager life but found not guilty as it was proven that he only had it for self defence, his only firearm offence was to have an unlicensed shotgun. having a weapon for lawful purposes - self defence being a lawful reason is still legal in the UK.

[LaVere]

How about a entrenching tool U.S. or British $2.00 to $10.00 used

http://www.militarykit.com/products/camping/british_army_style_folding_entrenching_tool.htm

[Dr.Rob]

Another call up for the Spetnatz shovel!

http://www.spetsnaz-gru.com/spetsnaz-shovel.jpg

TEN BUCKS! http://www.botac.com/colsteelspec.html

Or a cossack's kinjal.

http://www.armabohemia.cz/imgnew/epees/antik/Kindjal1v.jpg

[Boom-stick]

Matt,

self defence being a lawful reason is still legal in the UK.

check this out http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/news-and-publications/publication/operational-policing/HO-Firearms-Guidance.pdf?view=Binary

it seems to disagree, at least when concerning firearms?

[Lo.Com.Denom]

Link didn't go anywhere for me, Boom-stick.

Wasn't there a case of an ex-pat American clergyman, living in the UK, who was convicted for having a Derringer hidden in a Grandfather clock? Think it was in the late '90s. My memory fails me on the further details...

As for the non-firearm weapon question, there's still the chemical weapon option...:D A tutor at college once told me about his father, who used to work for British Rail as a guard. Used to have a pocket full of harsh old tobacco and a bloody great spanner...

As for me, I'll stick with my Katana and other pointy sticks. If you train correctly with such weapons, the space isn't a major issue, even -- as JShirley pointed out -- with the full length bo. Sure, it's not ideal for fighting indoors, but it can be done.

It's all about how much training you're willing to put in, I suppose.

[Boom-stick]

Cut and paste this into your browser, it's the police guide lines as to who can have what.

http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/news-and-publications/publication/operational-policing/HO-Firearms-Guidance.pdf?view=Binary

[Matt_W]

Hi Boom Stick. Yes you are right that the Police and the Home Office take a different view regarding SD especially where Firearms are concerned. However it is importat to note that SD was considered 'Good Reason' for the purposes of the Firearms Acts until 1947 when as a matter of policy (not legislation) it was dropped as such.

For Section 1 firearms the Police have to be satisfied that the holder of a certificate does not present a danger to the Public of the Peace. As a matter of policy applicants who state Self Defence as being their reason to own a firearm are seen to present an unacceptable risk to the public.

For Section 5 firearms the Home Secretary has to consider each indivdual application on its own merit, if they were to agree that your individual circumstances could warrant a pepperspray etc they would advise you talk to the local Crime Prevention Officer rather than issue you with the necessary authority to own such a thing so its a no win situation without any specific prohibition if you see what I mean.

[55sks]

What about a kids baseball bat and a 12 to 18" scewdriver that just happened to be where I could reach it since I was adjusting whatever (the kichen cabinet doors and the baseball bat my kid left laying around). No premeditation. Just convenience.

[Matt_W]

A baseball bat is probably one of the few 'impact weapons' that a UK citizen can obtain legally after legisation was introduced that stopped the sale of truncheons and batons.

In the UK you can obtain edged weapons from any city centre but the truncheon is deemed too dangerous for ordinary citizens to purchase (even though you can still legally own them)

If your neighbour or a family member asks to borrow your old truncheon you may commit an offence by lending it to him (or even to leave it to them in yor Will) but you are completely within the Law to give him a baseball bat with nails hammered through it, or even sword.

Does not make much sense to at all.

[jojo]

I would second the staff option, a good 4' staff can do terrible/good things:evil:

I make a staff called a Jo So that is 4' long and has a unique shape to it that give a somewhat knife edge on one side, and a rounded adge on the other.
The best way to show the shape is to put the tips of your thumb and index finger together.

Good luck

jojo

[Boom-stick]

Matt,

What about claw hammers:) :) :)

You forgot about claw hammers didn't you.
I've got a few knocking around and they are very legal and impart a greater wound channel than most projectile weapons and non-projectile weapons. I actually read an article on this many years ago that was a real eye opener.

It compared, cross-bows, all sorts of blades, .22 and .38, 12g all against the humble claw hammer, with blunt claws held out, it proved more dangerous that many other items that are currently banned over here.

Dan

[jaxenro]

A few years back I had the same thought, for a weapon that wasn't a weapon, could be carried anywhere (even on an airplane) when traveling, not appear threatening, and not break any laws. I ended up purchasing an Oak walking cane, octoganal, with a crook handle. I cut off the end at an angle, not enough to look threatening, but so that it was sharp and would gouge and cut if raked across the face. Added a little carving to make it look decorative. I tapered the other end and replaced the oversize rubber tip with a small button one. 1 1/8" thick oak, nice tung oil finish, I can carry it anywhere (fake a small limp if necessary), little old ladies pick it up for me if I drop it, and a good hit would with it drop almost anyone. You can poke with one end, rake the face with the other, swing like a baseball bat, and carry it in a bar, on a plane, is a restuarant, to the movies, whatever.

[Jeff Timm]

I thought the Brits had one of the finest CQB weapons ever devised, the Cricket Bat.

Geoff
Who notes those wooden balls accerlerated by said bat are also dangerous. :what:

[hso]

Jaxinro,

Welcome to the forum!

A cane is excellent as a anywhere/anytime weapon you can carry that no one will question (I carry a Canemasters cane when I travel), but in the home I'd still go with something with a little more heft and/or the ability to cut/chop/thrust since I don't have to depend on stealth to the extent we do on the street.

The Canmaster videos are very good, but working with an instructor that can maximize the cane's use as a weapon is best. I was lucky enough to train with a fellow that just amazed me with what a crook top cane can do.

[wizard of oz]

There are all sorts of possibilities for melee weapons. What about weapons that can be used at a distance ? Apart from the bow, I was thinking about spear guns, slingshots or some kind of spray. Good luck.

[p35]

I had the spray discussion a while ago: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=2600

[enfield]

I'll take a grenade.


No, I'll take several grenades. :D

[bubbygator]

Either Cold Steel's Assaegi
http://www.islandtactical.com/coldsteel/95P.jpg

or their Bushman
http://images.outdoorinteractive.net/mgen/495481_d.jpg?is=350,200,0xffffff&cvt=jpg

on about a 3-foot pole.

[Smith357]

A spiked mace or club can either be swung or thrust and do tons of damage. Since he live in England a spiked cricket bat should be easyto make, or with just a bit inginuity he could assemble a good mace from cast iron plumbing fixtures for less than 10 dollars. I made one that has flail head that can be screwed on if you want, and it is a formidable weapon.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=37904&d=1143983449



A bo-staff, hatchett, tomahawk, machete or short sword like a dirk or gladius should also suffice.

[madmike]

The UK has a strong mindset that PREPARING to fight equals INSTIGATING a fight. Any obvious or built weapon will look even worse in court than it does here.

The weapon shown IS a falchion. They vary in style, but are heavy. And that one is intended for decoration, not use.

I've made Viking style seaxes for customers in the UK. Any large CQB blade that you can pass off as a collector's piece would be good, or large (12") kitchen knife. Knives tend to have the best psychological effect (And spears). Our unlamented and not yet departed friend Charlie Manson said, "Everyone's afraid of gettin' cut!"

Small axes are excellent weapons (Rescue axes, Viking hand axes, etc), but don't carry quite as much emotional effect.

Whatever you get POLISH IT BRIGHTLY. Black and tactical is seen by many people as "weapon," whereas glittery is "wall display" and also more visible to the ex-scumbag-to-be.

For walking, a cane. In The Weapon, I have a character in a weapons free society (It was irony, see?) carrying a cane made of pipe, filled with 4 oz of mercury sucked into a vacuum, and capped with a brass head. It's a cane, parrying tool, striking weapon and mace with massive centrifugal and inertial force. Swing, snap into the turn, and 4 oz of weight shifts down to boost the KE at the end of the swing. I stole the idea from someone who built one. It WILL break bricks. Takes some lathe work and a vacuum pump, but brutal.

Of course, you CAN't pass that one off as anything but a weapon after it gets examined.

I do have a fan in the UK who he (And his wife) have pump Remington 870s and shoot "Sport." Takes some licensing and regular range time to maintain (Which is not a bad idea anyway), and they have two pump 12s full of #7 shot in the bedroom.

There's a Brit company makes a night table that comes apart as a baton and shield, Roman style. I'll see if I can find a link.

Never underestimate the power of a scream of profanities, a threat of mutilation and a motorcycle chain.

"YOU BLOODY @##$%ING HOODLUM! I'M GOING TO BASH IN YOUR BRAINS AND #@$%#ING FRY THEM IN #@$ING GREASE TO FEED TO MY @#$%ING DOG!" And bash a hole in the wall. Then scream and charge. (Also, if he's an average American, he's probably 3" taller and 40 lbs heavier than the type of scum who'll be breaking in. Use it.)

They EXPECT a victim. You just have to be that much more insane than they are for a few moments. (Hence The Bayonet:evil: I have.)

The bow would be okay down a hallway or stairs where you have time to react. Excellent, even. Massive thoracic hemorrhage will certainly be effective. Of course, the British press is now villifying bows as something only a deranged nut would possess.:barf:

When it is time for Ze RevoloooooooSHUN!, I vote that the press are the mindless jerks who should be first against the wall.

[ocelot777]

Madmike said:

"Never underestimate the power of a scream of profanities, a threat of mutilation and a motorcycle chain.

"YOU BLOODY @##$%ING HOODLUM! I'M GOING TO BASH IN YOUR BRAINS AND #@$%#ING FRY THEM IN #@$ING GREASE TO FEED TO MY @#$%ING DOG!" And bash a hole in the wall. Then scream and charge. (Also, if he's an average American, he's probably 3" taller and 40 lbs heavier than the type of scum who'll be breaking in. Use it.)

They EXPECT a victim. You just have to be that much more insane than they are for a few moments. (Hence The Bayonet I have.)"

I totally agree, but it should be remembered that what you say (or scream or yell) in such a situation can be"used against you in a court of law". If you prevail "with extreme prejudice" or anything approaching it you are quite likely, in the UK, to be viewed as the perpetrator.


I suspect that this has to do wth the political mind-set here rather than what the coppers themselves think is fair, but I strongly suspect that promotion follows conformity with that mind-set, so none of this is surprising.

I have had direct experience of this on more than one occasion, but I would still advocate a good bit of menacing vocalization. I was once in a situation where I was explaining to my barrister (in the UK, a barrister is hired by your solicitor (legal advisor/representative) to represent you in crown court) why I had issued blood-curdling threats in the course of defending myself from a guy with a knife and his friends. I said that I was trying to intimidate my (four) opponents and increase my chances of surviving. his response was:

"Yes, presence counts for a lot."

This from an experienced criminal defence barrister. He did, however, make it clear that it might cause problems with a jury. (In the event, the matter never came to trial.)

[jerkyman45]

I got bored while I was camping a few months ago and made a stone axe. You can make a great CQB weapon yourself for free in a couple of hours, its just a matter of what you want it for. The axe can't really be tucked into a pocket, as its near 5 feet long. Carry a folding knife in your pocket, I've got a regular old Kershaw and its great, I can deploy the blade in about 2 seconds, carry it in a boot, what have you, its just a great blade and its big enough for defense use.

[madmike]

So if your threats will be held against you, get creative.

"BLOOD FOR ODIN!" (Hey, invoke religious freedom. Or Taranis might be better. Celtic Paganism is becoming popular again and has official standing to bury Bronze Age remains after they're examined;) )

"THE ALIENS IN MY BRAIN DEMAND THAT I FEED THEM YOUR SPLEEN!"

You get the idea.

Who's going to bring THAT up in court?

http://www.olegvolk.net/gallery/d/5985-2/ar15bayonet.jpg

:evil:

[Warren]

OR how about something completely different from anything that has been suggested?? MY heros personal weapon of choice

The CHAINSAW


I've been on the wrong end of a chainsaw assualt and I can testify as to the near-bowel emptying terror I was stricken with...and I knew it was coming and knew the chain had been removed.

The only problem is keeping a small motor in the confines of an apartment. The gas smell might become an annoyance or a danger in time. Of course he could go electric.

[madmike]

Chainsaws seal pretty tightly--they have to to swing at different angles.

Of course, guaranteeing it will start in a hurry...

http://www.zombiehunters.org has a section on chainsaws as melee weapons (Really). And a couple have asked me about bayonet mounts for their chainsaws.

[Warren]

Even if it does not start right away if the footpad sees a very angry looking fellow trying to start one and moving at him I think he will scurry off. A group of thugs maybe not.

Can you imagine the scene though?

Two guys break in through the back door, they thought they were quiet enough...they start moving through the house when THEY hear bhutttt bhuttt bhuttt VROOOOMMMMMMM VROOOOOOMMMMM and around the corner comes a pasty but enraged Englishman wearing only his boxer shorts and possibly a hocky goalie's mask.

[madmike]

Though that would leave more than just blood to clean up...:uhoh:

[Warren]

In for a penny..in for a pound so to speak.

[jaxenro]

Hi,

"A cane is excellent as a anywhere/anytime weapon you can carry that no one will question (I carry a Canemasters cane when I travel), but in the home I'd still go with something with a little more heft and/or the ability to cut/chop/thrust since I don't have to depend on stealth to the extent we do on the street."

True, but in the home I have a collection of guns, knives, swords, etc. that work. The original Bowie knife was little more than a butcher knife with a handguard, so I suppose you can't go wrong with that. A heavy bladed cooks knife or meat cleaver would do the job, although it might be fun explaining in court why you just happened to have one in the bedroom with you (but honestly, I was just fix-in a midnite snack in bed).

Fortunately in this country I can just have a gun in the bedroom.

Joel

[Matt_W]

Hi Boom Stick, yes I had forgotten about the claw hammer.

Still I see that new legislation is going through Parliament at the moment that means householders are unlikely to face Court if they injure intruders - which sounds like a step in the right direction.

The next step is to educate householders that they are legally allowed to own non firearm type weapons in the UK and the legislation covers the use no the ownership thereof.

Things do seem to be getter worse in the UK and it saddens me when good people get hurt.

[Boom-stick]

It might just be me, but in the UK it is definatley becoming more apparent that if you were to kill your attacker you are much less likely to face being charged than if you just injured them:confused:

Hide/destroy/move the body and you could save yourself a whole heap of trouble.

I did say 'could' not would, okay???

[hso]

Electric chainsaw! No startup problems. No smelly fuel. Weird noise. With a long enough 12 gauge extension cord you could even cover 100 ft. or just barricade the door while the wife call the coppers! What's not to love!?! ;)

A buddy of mine has a chainsaw story. As university engineering students in a remote rural area of northern Georgia working on a power plant being built they found themselves to be very popular with the local girls. They imprudently took advantage of their "cosmopolitan" status and widely dated and cavorted with the local lovelies. This inevitably created some dissatisfaction within the local young single male population and resulted in an incident. While the two of them were commuting back to their apartment with one of the local engineers working on the plant startup a large group of unhappy young men in pickup trucks and NASCAR copies forced the truck the local engineer was driving of into a large graveled area. As the local boys piled out of their "Dukes of Hazard" caravan the engineer yelled for my student buddy and his pal to "Get out and grab somethn'" to which they promptly complied. One grabbed a hoe and the other grabbed a mattock. As the advancing lynch mob seemed undeterred by the meager farm implements in the student's hands my buddy expected a serious butt whoopn'. All this changed with the high pitched roar from a Poulan chainsaw starting up. Seems the fellow they were riding with had his trusty chainsaw in the bed of the truck and took the few moments while the "boys" were sizing each other up to fire that puppy up. Chains and pipes and axe handles hit the ground like manna from heaven and the local boys decided that Billy Bob's girl going out with the "college boys" just wasn't worth facing a chainsaw over.;)

[madmike]

That's been true here for a long time. Survivor will take you to court because he was out for a peaceful, late-night stroll with his crowbar and gold chain collection and took a wrong turn into your living room, whereupon you shot him in cold blood and he'll never be able to get a proper job that he was planning on looking for Real Soon Now.

Or he was out late in Baghdad with his collection of C4, Semtex and TNT salvaged patiently from his hobby of disarming munitions, and you shot him in cold blood while he was trying to stow it under the rails of his friend's propane truck.

Either way, if there's only one side of the story to tell in court, it becomes a LOT easier.

[Lo.Com.Denom]

Hide/destroy/move the body and you could save yourself a whole heap of trouble.

Careful mate -- you'll have *SOCA after you!:p

I can see it now: "First blood to Tony's secret police! International hit-man arrested after internet sting!"

(*And possibly the Mods. Better add a smiley... ;) )

[madmike]

Electric chainsaw, and invest in one of the helical coiled cords or a self-winding tensioned drum for a cord.

If you HAVE a hockey mask, go for it. Make sure the eye holes are big enough, and have fun. Make sure you practice your :evil: expression.

Solidly block the cord into the wall behind a dresser so it can't slip out in mid rev and leave you a comedy victim. Check to make sure you won't pop the breaker.

I have to say that is about THE most intimidating weapon you could have.

Just ditch the hockey mask if you actually do have to use it.

http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/anim_chainsawkill.gif

[Boom-stick]

Quote:
Hide/destroy/move the body and you could save yourself a whole heap of trouble.


Careful mate -- you'll have *SOCA after you!

I can see it now: "First blood to Tony's secret police! International hit-man arrested after internet sting!"

(*And possibly the Mods. Better add a smiley... )

I repeat, I did say could not would;)

As for Tony's secret police...... I think a sizable donation (£10) to the labour party should get me off and a Lordship to boot:)

[Lo.Com.Denom]

I think a sizable donation (£10) to the labour party should get me off and a Lordship to boot

:D

Don't know why, but all this talk of chainsaws has got me thinking of that "DREAD" centrifugal weapon, that was doing the rounds last year. Surely you could make a hand-held version, based on a chainsaw, that spits out BBs or marbles, or something. Probably not enough power there to make the projectiles lethal, but I reckon it'd make 'em think twice, though.


Would need eye protection, of course. And crotch protection. And everything-else protection...

[JShirley]

I think this thread has totally degenerated into satire.

In all honesty, despite its fearsome intimidation factor, a chainsaw makes a very poor weapon.

Start a new thread if needed.

John