Will Wolf ammo damage my new AR???


PDA






grizz
February 17, 2006, 11:41 PM
I was recently warned that Wolf ammo will damage AR-15s due to the fact that they use steel cases. Is this true? I just bought a new RRA AR-15 tactical carbine and after shelling out $1K i don't want to do anything that might damage it. Also, same question for Wolf ammo use in pistols.

Can anyone recommend some decent brass .223 rounds in 1000 round bulk and where to find them? I'd like to pay under $200 if possible. I'd love to shoot Black Hills moly coated, but they're pretty spendy. Anyone know who's got the best deals on BH ammo?

THANKS!

If you enjoyed reading about "Will Wolf ammo damage my new AR???" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
The Undertoad
February 17, 2006, 11:47 PM
I plan on picking up 1k rounds of Georgia Arms Canned Heat at the gunshow tomorrow. I hear it's good stuff and hard to beat $170/1000. Black Hills for under $200? Let me know where you find it...that'd be a good price.

ocabj
February 17, 2006, 11:55 PM
While I personally would not let a round of Wolf steel case in my ARs, many people shoot Wolf steel case in AR-15s all the time without any problems.

You can get 1000 rounds of loose packed Lake City M855 from ammoman.com for $219 shipped. Expect about 40-50 rounds to be rejects though (mostly due to split necks and other types of case damage).

Bartholomew Roberts
February 18, 2006, 12:02 AM
If you can use the steel penetrator M855 ammo, Natchez is selling Lake City overruns at $179/1000 right now (brass case, NATO headstamp, 5.56 pressure).

I wouldn't say that Wolf will damage your AR; but it can cause issues in function with some ARs. Generally the major issues I've seen are the neck sealant (thick red stripe around the case neck/bullet) on the older Wolf ends up gumming up the chamber. On the newer Wolf, the steel doesn't expand as much as the brass and you end up with more baked on, hard-to-remove carbon in the chamber, particularly if the chamber isn't chrome-lined.

Some have suggested that the steel case of Wolf is harder on extractors and bolts than brass cased ammo. I haven't seen that myself; but I don't shoot much Wolf either. However, given the cost savings with Wolf, it could be pretty hard on gun parts and you might still save money with it.

In either case, the Wolf will generally function acceptably in my experience but you need to be particular about cleaning. It isn't all that accurate...4MOA ammo.

The-Fly
February 18, 2006, 12:12 AM
i've run 4k rounds of wolf through my bushmaster, works good for me. Just make sure to really clean good afterwards.

Sunray
February 18, 2006, 12:24 AM
"...due to the fact that they use steel cases..." Rubbish. Steel cases are made of much softer steel than the steel in your rifle. Soft metals won't damage hard metals.
Don't buy any ammo in bulk until you've tried one box in your rifle. You have no idea how well a particular brand shoots in your rifle otherwise. If you're not reloading, you need to try as many brands and bullet weights to find the one or two that shoot best in your rifle. Then buy in bulk.
"...I hear it's good stuff..." That means nothing if it doesn't shoot well in your rifle. The price of bulk factory ammo means nothing either.

pcf
February 18, 2006, 06:33 AM
I've gone thorugh 6k of the polymer Wolf, a friend turned me onto it about 4 month ago, and about 200 rounds of the old stuff. I get twice mileage out of the same amount of money.

The Good:
-It works in most rifles
-It's cheap
-It's more than accurate for training inside of 100yds
-Wolf has a pretty good Customer Service department, if it doesn't work, Wolf will refund your money for unused ammo. If your rifle KB's or blows up when using Wolf, they'll repair/replace (that's a lot more than some US ammo manufacturers)

Bad things about:
-It stinks.
-Not as accurate as American made ammo. The SD for velocity is extreme.
-Require that you spend a couple extra minutes cleaning the chamber and bolt.
-Shooting Wolf and then brass cased ammo, without cleaning can lead to problems.
-Can't be reloaded.

I get twice the mileage out of Wolf, all I have to do is spend an extra 3 minutes cleaning after a range session.

Onmilo
February 18, 2006, 09:24 AM
I haven't seen Wolf actually damage an AR15 but I have made a bit of money removing stuck cases from the chambers of AR15 rifles that have been fired extensively with Wolf ammunition.
In two cases the jams were severe enough that I had to pull the barrels and use an easy out and a hydraulic puller to remove the cases.

I will add that in every single case the rifles were extremely dirty/fouled.
While everyone will tell you that the stuff jammed on the third round, I am inclined to think in every single case, the rifles were fired heavily and rarely cleaned properly.

Anyway, I don't shoot any steel case ammunition in my AR type rifles, I use it quite frequently in my AK type rifle with no issues other than less than exciting accuracy and that may be the gun/shooter, not the ammunition.

hksw
February 18, 2006, 10:14 AM
I was a little tenative about shooting Wolf through my plate shooting AR at first at a plate shoot but didn't and haven't had any problems since.

MechAg94
February 18, 2006, 10:49 AM
I have put around 500 rounds of Wolf through my Armalite. No problems. It is smelly and I guess dirty. I clean my rifle though. It has been moderately accurate though I have not yet shot it off the bench, just for plinking. No reliability problems whatsoever with Wolf.

I have had reliability issues with cheap brass ammo. I had some gun show specials I bought when I was breaking it in. The primer section came out of a few rounds and caused me problems. One got a small sliver of brass jammed in my bolt. That was not quality ammo though.

I bought a spare bolt w/extractor and a firing pin from Armalite for $65. I save almost that much buying a case of Wolf over a case of brass ammo.

As an alternative, I bought a case of brass S&B ammo for about $190. I don't know if it is any more accurate, but it is reloadable.

For cleaning, I would suggest getting an OTIS cleaning kit. They are pretty cool and come with all the necessary accessories like the bore brush. If you use a Hoppes Boresnake, be aware the bolt slamming forward can cut the string. :)

boofus
February 18, 2006, 11:26 AM
Wolf is all I use in my full-auto FNC. I've also used it in all the AR15s I previously owned. The only one that balked was a RRA stainless national match that wouldn't lock the bolt back on the last round. Other than that it worked just fine.

The Wolf stinks and is dirty but works just fine for range blasting ammo. For SHTF I keep a small quantity of XM193. The Wolf simply doesn't fragment like the milspec stuff does.

The new polymer coated Wolf is alot better than the old lacquer coated stuff. You can tell the new ammo from the old by the big letter P on the case.

ftierson
February 18, 2006, 01:24 PM
While I personally would not let a round of Wolf steel case in my ARs, many people shoot Wolf steel case in AR-15s all the time without any problems.

You can get 1000 rounds of loose packed Lake City M855 from ammoman.com for $219 shipped. Expect about 40-50 rounds to be rejects though (mostly due to split necks and other types of case damage).

Hmmm

$219/1000 for reject ammo with a 5% split neck/case damage rate sounds like a real deal to me...NOT. I guess that, as long as people will buy reject production ammo for really high prices, they'll keep providing it to us...

Sorry, I'd much rather shoot Wolf...

The Wolf that I've shot (only 55gr FMJ) has performed pretty well. The newer, polymer coated Wolf has received better marks than the older lacquered stuff, but both have worked well for me. However, I should also mention that I don't fire my ARs until they're red hot...

Also, the Wolf 5.56x45mm steel cased ammo is boxer primed if you're really looking for some adventure... I've never tried reloading the cases, but I know people who have played a little with it...

Personally, I just reload M193 spec ammo (in brass cases :)), using mostly US Mil. cases. It's much cheaper than buying factory ammo at the prices that are being demanded for it today. And, unlike the current reject ammo being sold, I know the quality of the reload ammo...

Forrest

Bobarino
February 18, 2006, 02:28 PM
wolf is dirty, smelly, not very accurate, but it won't damage your rifle. you can also get ADCOM M855 for $170/k shipped from aim sutplus. i've been using it and its pretty good. there were 10 rounds out of the first 500 i examined that were damaged bad enough that i threw them out but the rest went bang and worked fine. be careful of the of the M193 and M855 that have PD after it, marked on boxes it comes it. its the rejects and some of it is unreliable and damaged. if you don't mind weeding through it and picking out the bad ones and are mindful of squibs and the like, it can be a good deal.

Bobby

Samuel_Hoggson
February 18, 2006, 03:27 PM
Yes, it will ruin your gun.......also you'll lose your hair.........girlfriend will leave you............dog will leave you..........

But act now!! PM me for addy, and package up all your Wolf ammo. I will be happy to dispose of it for you.

No charge.

Sam

MatthewVanitas
February 18, 2006, 05:00 PM
If you want to settled down for a good, long read, there are dozens of pages of Wolf discussion in the ammo section of www.ar15.com

I read through a few dozen pages, and ended up getting the gist: "it's underpowered and dirty, but won't hurt anything." Your interpretation of the argument may vary.


Seeing as how I can save $50 a case or so, that's acceptable to me.

I ran a .223 "taste test" in my new BM Disspator upper (the one I'm turning into a Vietnam-era Colt 605 repro), and found that the 62gr fed/extracted/ejected just peachy, however, a few times it failed to lock the bolt back on an empty mag. This leads me to believe that it's just right on the edge of underpowered for my rifle at this time. So I'm going to run a few hundred rounds of higher-pressure ammo through it to smooth out the action, then buy a few more boxes of Wolf to see if they'll lock the bolt back on an empty mag.

So far as accuracy: if I were shooting varmints, probably no. But for hitting the gong, and running in 3-gun matches, no worries.

I'll write up a more extensive report once I get a few hundred rounds of various manufacture through. Also curious to see if the 55gr will function or no. Must have picked up 10 different brands of inexpensive .223 ammo at the SAXET show. I'll pick up and function check some good quality defense ammo later, but I want to find the best cheap plinking ammo for the nonce.

I'll be following this thread with interest,

-MV

ocabj
February 18, 2006, 05:17 PM
Hmmm

$219/1000 for reject ammo with a 5% split neck/case damage rate sounds like a real deal to me...NOT. I guess that, as long as people will buy reject production ammo for really high prices, they'll keep providing it to us...

The fact is that pretty much all US issue ammo that will make it to commercial retail will be tier 2/3 production lot reject since the US military can longer surplus ammunition (except to the CMP). As far as $219 for 1000 with a 5% split neck/case rate, it's not a great deal but it's not a bad deal. People who buy Lake City XM193 or M855PD get good ammo with usable brass to use.

MechAg94
February 18, 2006, 07:22 PM
That may be true, but I'll plan on buying brass ammo when I find deals and use Wolf for most of my plinking.

OEF_VET
February 18, 2006, 08:05 PM
I shoot Wolf and Barnaul through my AR all the time, with very few malfunctions, no more so than with brass-cased ammo at least. Oh yeah, I rarely clean my AR either. I'm trying to see just how long it can go until it starts having issues. So far, I've got about 1,500 rounds down range with nary an issue. (1,500 rounds of .223 that is. I also use the same lower for my 9mm upper - 1,000 rounds, and my .22 upper with suppressor - at least 1,000 rounds)

I do keep a supply of brass-cased ammo handy for serious/social work/SHTF/TEOTWAWKI, but Wolf and Barnaul are my primary sources for plinking ammo. I use a lot CCI Blazer 9mm and Federal .22 Subsonic for the other uppers.

Bartholomew Roberts
February 19, 2006, 10:53 AM
I shoot Wolf and Barnaul through my AR all the time, with very few malfunctions, no more so than with brass-cased ammo at least. Oh yeah, I rarely clean my AR either. I'm trying to see just how long it can go until it starts having issues.

Try mixing some brass cased ammo in with your use of the steel cased stuff. I bet you see issues earlier than if you continue to use just steel cased ammo. I'd also add that if you have a chrome-lined chamber, you probably don't have much of a problem; but if you don't then the type of carbon buildup you are getting in your chamber will be VERY hard to remove completely.

Beren
February 19, 2006, 11:19 AM
Wolf has some nice stuff on its way. Brass cased ammo reportedly made to M193 specs, and some 75gr 5.56mm ammo. I've run the old Wolf through Glocks with no problems. Need to try some in my AR's.

OEF_VET
February 19, 2006, 12:25 PM
Try mixing some brass cased ammo in with your use of the steel cased stuff. I bet you see issues earlier than if you continue to use just steel cased ammo. I'd also add that if you have a chrome-lined chamber, you probably don't have much of a problem; but if you don't then the type of carbon buildup you are getting in your chamber will be VERY hard to remove completely.

I do fire some brass cased stuff from time-to-time; milsurp mostly. (I found a good deal on some Gautemalen and it works quite well.) I do, in fact, have a chrome-lined barrel and chamber. That's pretty much the only way I roll with an AR. About the only cleaning I do routinely is run a boresnake through the barrel, to avoid much build-up in it.

Bartholomew Roberts
February 19, 2006, 01:25 PM
I do, in fact, have a chrome-lined barrel and chamber. That's pretty much the only way I roll with an AR. About the only cleaning I do routinely is run a boresnake through the barrel, to avoid much build-up in it.

Yeah, that will make a difference. The chrome-lined chamber makes it hard for carbon to build up in the first place, which is nice when shooting ammo like Wolf that is known for being dirty and doesn't seal the chamber as well as brass.

It is amazing how much difference that little layer of chrome makes in cleaning off baked on carbon.

Double Naught Spy
February 19, 2006, 02:17 PM
The fact is that pretty much all US issue ammo that will make it to commercial retail will be tier 2/3 production lot reject since the US military can longer surplus ammunition (except to the CMP). As far as $219 for 1000 with a 5% split neck/case rate, it's not a great deal but it's not a bad deal. People who buy Lake City XM193 or M855PD get good ammo with usable brass to use.

Well either I am blind or my Lake City XM193 ammo isn't of as low of a quality as yours. I maybe find 3-5 per 1000 that are of spec, but none are split cases.

As for the Wolf ammo and lower prices versus the terrible wear and tear on extractors, you can save enough money with each case to buy a new extractor, spring, and roll pin and still come out well on the deal. Heck with the savings, you can find a whole bolt assembly from Bushmaster, almost, at $56..

With $50 savings per case of ammo, you would have enough saved to buy a lower end AR15 after 14 or 15 cases ($700-750). For me, that would mean being able to buy one new AR a year, plus a couple of mags. Unfortunately, Wolf doesn't function in my AR.

For my 1911 and shooting Blazer ammo, I would buy one Wilson Combat magazine with each case of Blazer I ordered form Natchez and still come out with a few $ saved as compared to buying non-AMERC brassed ammo.

Zen21Tao
February 19, 2006, 02:33 PM
A few month back I bought a few hunderd rounds of Black Hills remanufactured ammo (which is just as good as their new ammo) form MidwayUSA. Midway was selling the 55grn at $11.50/50rnds. This I reasoned was relatively close to the $4(+tax)per box of 20 I usually get in Winchester Whitebox from Walmart. Now I think Midway is seeling them for around $14/50rnd box. Still not bad for match grade ammo.

Samuel_Hoggson
February 19, 2006, 02:41 PM
Yeah, that will make a difference. The chrome-lined chamber makes it hard for carbon to build up in the first place, which is nice when shooting ammo like Wolf that is known for being dirty and doesn't seal the chamber as well as brass.

It is amazing how much difference that little layer of chrome makes in cleaning off baked on carbon.

I've read elsewhere about the problem of "chasing" Wolf with brass-cased stuff. The pics showed an incredible amount of black crap sticking to the brass cases - along with the reported FTExs, etc.

FWIW, last time out I ran about 1k Wolf poly through a couple of Colt uppers in FA. Then I deliberately tried to reproduce this problem by switching to some of my SA. I could not stick any empties. When I examined the SA empties I did not see any sign of carbon whatsoever. But, of course, the Colt chambers are chromed.

Sam

Average Joe
February 19, 2006, 02:58 PM
Try a couple boxes in your rifle. If it works fine, then buy it in bulk. Nothing wrong with Wolf, but some guns just don't like certain brands of ammo.

lycanthrope
February 20, 2006, 12:05 AM
Wolf rocks for hoser ammo. I have NEVER had a bad round in the few thousand of Wolf that I have fired. Dirty? Not any worse than Winchester White Box from Wal Mart. I've run a half thousand through several AR's without problems.

My extractors aren't wearing. I'm looking hard, but I can't find an issue.

Onmilo
February 20, 2006, 08:46 AM
One of the barrels I pulled was from a Bushmaster and it was chrome lined.
As I said, clean the gun regularly and you probably won't have a problem.
Me, I'm going to stay with brass case stuff in my AR rifles.

vanfunk
February 20, 2006, 09:10 AM
I'll go out on a limb here and say that if an AR is having trouble with Wolf, it'll likely have trouble with other ammo too. That is also to say that a properly constructed AR should have no more problems with Wolf than with any other ammo. I've never had a functional problem with Wolf, although it's odor can be stifling. It is not particularly accurate in my rifles, nor is it loaded hot, but it is inexpensive range and "blasting" ammo. The soft steel cases shouldn't pose any problems for a properly made extractor - again, I'd say if your extractor breaks while shooting Wolf, it's likely the part and not the ammo that was the culprit.

I'm waiting for the new 75 grain Wolf to hit the shelves - it's supposed to be a pretty good "poor man's" rendition of the Black Hills 77 gr fodder everybody likes but can't afford or find anywhere.

HTH,
vanfunk

Bartholomew Roberts
February 20, 2006, 10:45 AM
One of the barrels I pulled was from a Bushmaster and it was chrome lined.

Just out of curiousity was it a dirty chamber with a red gummy mess inside or just an extremely dirty chamber where the carbon would not come loose from the chamber walls without serious work?

I haven't seen problems with carbon buildup in chrome chambers unless there was also some other extenuating circumstance (like a bunch of red gooey neck sealant, or two different cleaners that had turned into a gummy mess).

Vitamin G
February 20, 2006, 01:57 PM
While everyone will tell you that the stuff jammed on the third round, I am inclined to think in every single case, the rifles were fired heavily and rarely cleaned properly.


Odd you mention this... My bushy superlight jammed on the 2nd case (stuck case), and it WAS cleaned 2 days before we went to the range. (Cleaned Friday night, we shoot sundays.)
No matter... I took a cleaning rod down the barrel, and simply knocked it out backwards, and resumed. No further problems.
(In retrospect, was this safe to do?)

jem375
February 20, 2006, 02:05 PM
the only Wolf ammo I will ever use is for my SKS's or AK47 when I get one..ar15 no, I have too much XM193 or Winchester 3131A which are more accurate.

Shrinkmd
March 4, 2006, 09:42 PM
Since the Iraqis and Venezuala bought up all the Wolf 7.62 x 39 there's no point in having an SKS or AK anymore, eh? And since the 7.62 which is out there is now the same price as the .223, it's time to see if I can get away with pouring beer into the champagne glass.

So here's my question:

For a chrome lined chamber/barrel, like a Bushmaster, what cleaning regimen and supplies are necessary for getting it really clean (presumably after getting it really dirty with the Wolf?

Is the Dewey AR-15 chamber kit http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=163348
adequate? I'm assuming that if you Mpro7 the hell out of the bolt, clean under (or remove and clean) the extractor, and use one of those extra-long pipe cleaners (with or without solvent? Which one?) for the gas tube, that everything should stay clean and happy.

I just need to get the right tools and learn to pamper every inch of my Bushie.

Cacique500
March 4, 2006, 09:57 PM
Personally, I wouldn't own an AR that couldn't shoot wolf through it. I have about 6000 rounds of wolf through my Colt 6920 and I've never had any problems. I do have my SHTF stash of ammo which is not wolf, but for plinking I'll use it every time.

The 'wear' on extractors due to 'steel' cases is BS - MUCH softer steel is used than regular steel - your extractor is much harder steel than the cases. IF, and I stress 'if' it were true, you'd still save enough money on each and every case to buy a new extractor.

As for it being dirtier or smellier, who cares?

Buy Wolf, shoot it, and enjoy the $$ you save - maybe put it towards another AR... ;)

what cleaning regimen and supplies are necessary for getting it really clean (presumably after getting it really dirty with the Wolf?

I use a normal cleaning regimen - only exception being the use of 'chamber stars'...best thing since sliced bread for an AR. http://www.gandrtactical.com/cleaning_files/stars.htm

lycanthrope
March 4, 2006, 10:24 PM
Is the Dewey AR-15 chamber kit http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...eitemid=163348
adequate?

It better be....it's what I use.

I never clean the gas tube and I've shot thousands of rounds of wolf. I think that excess lube in the gas tube gets carmelized under high heat and causes problems.

I also think Wolf is safe for the extractor. If the AR extractor wasn't spring loaded then mayeb it would wear, but even my cheap AR's show zero wear from Wolf steel cased ammo.

Shrinkmd
March 4, 2006, 10:40 PM
I am going to invest in the Dewey breech rod guide and coated rod (my old one from Kleenbore is all chewed up anyway...) I still haven't found a satisfactory patch which will not get stuck in .22 cal barrels using a .22 cal brass jag. Any brand recommendations?

rocky
March 4, 2006, 10:46 PM
Over 1K of wolf thru my Bushie, without any damage, broken parts.

lycanthrope
March 5, 2006, 01:07 AM
I use the Dewey AR chamber brush and then a Dewey .17 caliber rod and .22 patches for bore cleaning.....no problems.

eastwood44mag
March 5, 2006, 01:25 AM
To echo:

Accuracy will shoot straight to hell, gun will stink, functioning will likely be impaired due to accumulation of residue. Cheap ammo, usually goes bang when you pull trigger (one misfire to date for me, about 400 rounds of my personal collection fired).


I had a bad experience with the .45 rounds today, so I'll only be feeding it to the AK from now on.

Dave Markowitz
March 5, 2006, 09:37 AM
Wolf ammo will break your gun and make you sterile. :neener:

Seriously, it works ok in some guns but not in others. E.g., my Colt doesn't seem to like it but runs fine on XM-193, Ultramax, and American Eagle. My Mini-14 OTH runs great on Wolf.

Wolf is dirtier but I don't find the fouling to be hard to get off. Hoppe's No.9 cleans it off fine.

What I don't like about the gray polymer coated Wolf ammo is that it rusts easily, e.g., when stored in a damp crawlspace. If you are going to be storing Wolf polymer in a humid location keep it in an airtight container (e.g. ammo can) and maybe toss in some dessicant. The old lacquered stuff was better in this regard.

Lennyjoe
March 5, 2006, 09:56 AM
After getting a case stuck in my AR while at the Yuma shoot, I won't use Wolf anymore in my AR-15. Had to beat the damn thing out with a cleaning rod and hammer. Won't do that again.

If you enjoyed reading about "Will Wolf ammo damage my new AR???" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!