Game & antipersonnel rifle?


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SkyChaney
February 19, 2006, 01:18 AM
Iím looking for a rifle that will work well for hunting deer, and also serve as an antipersonnel weapon in major emergencies. Our family has just collected a yearís worth of food and suppliesÖ for emergencies like the bird flu. I need a gun for both hunting and protecting the family.

Iím not sure whether I need a semiautomatic or not? Iíd like a gun that operates on relatively cheap ammo, so that we can do plenty of practicing with it. I suppose Iíll need a scope. Which guns may work for us... without breaking the bank? Any experiences or knowledge would be appreciated!

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lawson
February 19, 2006, 01:44 AM
if i had to choose one rifle for both deer hunting and defense, i would go with a lever action .30-30. not exactly cheap to shoot, but not very expensive either. you can get a marlin 336 drilled and tapped for a scope mount.

Headless Thompson Gunner
February 19, 2006, 02:00 AM
Do you have fantasies about playing Rambo?

If not, then just about any quality hunting weapon would work for you. A lever action would work well. So would a good 12 guage shotgun with a short (security) barrel and a long (hunting) barrel. So would a standard scoped hunting rifle.

Being able to hit your target is what matters. Five quick hits from a .30-06 or .30-30 will convince any attacker (or group of attackers) to leave you alone.

roscoe
February 19, 2006, 02:02 AM
I second the 30-30. Very handy, very reliable, you can get off shots durn fast with practice, with the new Hornady ammunition they say it is effective to 300 yards, and it does not scare people like a battle rifle would. Ammo is very available.

I recommend getting a peep sight and you are good to go. I prefer Winchester, but plenty others like Marlin. You can get a good used one for $200 or less.

The main thing is to practice with it. You should know your weapon intimately. If you do that, the actual choice of weapons becomes less important.

MatthewVanitas
February 19, 2006, 03:08 AM
I (respectfully) take issue with those who recommend a 30-30 or 30-06 when price of ammo is stated as an issue. I've yet to see cheap bulk 30-30, and supplies of mil-surp 30-06 are steadily dwindling.

Have you considered a military surplus bolt-action rifle?

A good-quality, tough-as-nails rifle like the Moisin Nagant can be had for $75 to $150 in many parts of the country. Military-surplus ammo (for target practice) can be had for maybe 15c a shot (vice 50c a shot for 30-30), and hunting ammo is also available. Said rifles come equipped with iron sights, so scope not a necessity.

If you plan to fight off hordes of communist zombies, not the best rifle. But if you want an inexpensive, incredibly durable rifle that takes affordable ammo, is satisfactory for hunting, has killed millions in several wars, and costs less than most scopes cost, check out a Moisin Nagant.

If curious, run a search (hit Search button at top of forum screen) to search for many, many past threads on the Nagant rifle.

Welcome aboard THR! -MV

Zerstoerer
February 19, 2006, 03:22 AM
HK G3/91 in .308 Win
Accurate, 20 rd Mags., reliable...

C-grunt
February 19, 2006, 03:36 AM
I think a Ruger mini 14 or mini 30 would fit your bill nicely. I know .223 is not a very good deer rifle, but in a emergency type situation, I think a shot to the neck would work ( thats my guess, Im no expert hunter.). Also, a good milsurp like the Mauser or the Nagant would work too. You can get a FAL for a decent price, but .308 is a bit more expensive.

mrmeval
February 19, 2006, 07:12 AM
That would be .308, 8mm or one of the Russian ones, the ammo is cheap and allows practice. I will have a .223 AR15 for defense, again the ammo is cheap and allows practice. A pistol or revolver in 9mm or .45 as they are the more common ones and ammo is less expensive. Also a .22lr rifle and long barreled pistol for hunting small game. Having something like a Thompson contenteder that can use ammo aquired after the stores are looted would be nice.

Iím looking for a rifle that will work well for hunting deer, and also serve as an antipersonnel weapon in major emergencies. Our family has just collected a yearís worth of food and suppliesÖ for emergencies like the bird flu. I need a gun for both hunting and protecting the family.

Iím not sure whether I need a semiautomatic or not? Iíd like a gun that operates on relatively cheap ammo, so that we can do plenty of practicing with it. I suppose Iíll need a scope. Which guns may work for us... without breaking the bank? Any experiences or knowledge would be appreciated!

1911 guy
February 19, 2006, 07:29 AM
Buy a shotgun. With a 12 guage, you have versatility. Small shot for small game, which is far more plentiful than deer for feeding yourself. Buckshot for two legged varmints, slugs or buckshot for deer when you can find them. If you plan on buying more than one arm, specialize. If buying only one, get a shottie.

epijunkie67
February 19, 2006, 08:33 AM
First, realize you are asking for a short answer in an area that has a LOT of differing opinion. You have several options that would fit your requirements and it may take you some time to explore them.

Semiauto vs nonsemiauto? Semi auto usually has less felt recoil and a higher volume of fire for a given round. I.E. shooting a semiauto .308 usually has less recoil than a bolt action .308 as a general rule. Most people buying a gun for self defense want high volume of fire and low recoil, like in an AR15. Most people wanting to hunt want more "punch" than you get from the .223 (in an AR15) and you don't need a high volume of fire.

Do you hunt already? Have you ever shot guns before? Are you wanting to start hunting on a regular basis or is this just going to be a gun to "hunt with if things get really bad"? These are important questions to answer that can help guide you to a good rifle for you.

Oh, and the shotgun. Usually considered the best "general purpose" weapon you could get since you can hunt anything from mouse to moose with it. It does have it's own limitations though. Stiff recoil, limited range, heavy ammo, that kind of thing. Again, I'd need to ask you some questions before I could direct you down that road.

jacketch
February 19, 2006, 08:48 AM
Iím looking for a rifle that will work well for hunting deer, and also serve as an antipersonnel weapon in major emergencies. Our family has just collected a yearís worth of food and suppliesÖ for emergencies like the bird flu. I need a gun for both hunting and protecting the family.

Iím not sure whether I need a semiautomatic or not? Iíd like a gun that operates on relatively cheap ammo, so that we can do plenty of practicing with it. I suppose Iíll need a scope. Which guns may work for us... without breaking the bank? Any experiences or knowledge would be appreciated!
Find a good SKS. Innexpensive, semiauto, the ammo is readily available and relatively cheap, it can be scoped and would be excellent for hunting or defense.

That said, if things got so bad I had to hunt to feed my family, I would use a bow and/or snares primarily due to the fact that they are quieter and don't require cartridges.

georgeduz
February 19, 2006, 08:59 AM
every american should own a 30-30.i was told its was the law,or should be.

The Real Hawkeye
February 19, 2006, 09:33 AM
I’m looking for a rifle that will work well for hunting deer, and also serve as an antipersonnel weapon in major emergencies. Our family has just collected a year’s worth of food and supplies… for emergencies like the bird flu. I need a gun for both hunting and protecting the family.

I’m not sure whether I need a semiautomatic or not? I’d like a gun that operates on relatively cheap ammo, so that we can do plenty of practicing with it. I suppose I’ll need a scope. Which guns may work for us... without breaking the bank? Any experiences or knowledge would be appreciated!I've always been of the view that the Winchester 94 in .30-30 would be ideal in the role you describe. Rugged mechanism, man-accurate out to about 300 yards, and deer/bear/boar capable out to about 250 yards (especially with the latest high tech ammo and a good aperture sight). Standard type ammo is very cheap, though not mil surplus cheap. In an emergency, you have six fast rounds at the ready, and you can use tactical relaods at will, i.e., you can stick another in the mag, regardless of it not being empty, unlike, for example, the M1 Garand. Buy yourself an ammo belt, and fill it full of .30-30, and get one for the butt stock too, and, from a cover position, you'd be a formidable threat to any band of outlaws.

Less handy rifle, but a semi auto with some close range hunting ability would be the SKS. The ammo for it is usually cheaper than .30-30 due to mili surp being available. It's a heavy and awkward gun, though, compared to the Winchester 94, and generally less accurate with worse trigger and sights. The SKS, however, would be more ideal for defending against gangs of looters, and less ideal for hunting, and/or going on foot.

redneck2
February 19, 2006, 09:44 AM
Lots of answers, few which may be correct

first, where do you live?? If it's Indiana for example, you can't use (legally) a rifle to deer hunt. Either pistol or shotgun

second, if you know that little about firearms, you'll probably either need help from a mentor or a lot of trigger time on your own

third, if you're hunting for survival, a shotgun would probably be as or more useful since you could use it for small game as well as deer

a centerfire will be expensive to shoot (relative to a rimfire), will beat you up a lot worse, and unless you practice anyone with any experience will get the better of you in no time.

This is kind of like saying "I want to run the Daytona 500 this afternoon...how do I learn to drive a stock car in 4 hours??"

If you're serious, get a .22, get some basic firearm training, and then practice

If you're dead set on starting out with a rifle, SKS fits your bill perfectly

The Real Hawkeye
February 19, 2006, 10:01 AM
Lots of answers, few which may be correct

first, where do you live?? If it's Indiana for example, you can't use (legally) a rifle to deer hunt. Either pistol or shotgun.During an emergency breakdown of civilization, I don't think he's going to be thinking too much about the game laws.second, if you know that little about firearms, you'll probably either need help from a mentor or a lot of trigger time on your own.Yes, that is a given. Practice, practice, practice, and you will become deadly on game or man.third, if you're hunting for survival, a shotgun would probably be as or more useful since you could use it for small game as well as deer.You can hunt anything from small game to moose with a .30-30 too, and shotgun ammo is a lot bulkier than .30-30 ammo, which becomes important if he has to take to the back country with only what he can carry.a centerfire will be expensive to shoot (relative to a rimfire), will beat you up a lot worse, and unless you practice anyone with any experience will get the better of you in no time.Relative to rimfire?!!! I hardly think rimfire is an appropriate recommendation for his needs.This is kind of like saying "I want to run the Daytona 500 this afternoon...how do I learn to drive a stock car in 4 hours??"Nothing was said about four hours, but four hours at the range with a .30-30 over a month would be enough to acquire adequate skills for his purposes. He is not anticipating taking on the Delta Force, but roving gangs of, almost certainly, inner city folks looking to steal food and whatever else they can find. These folks will not likely present with a whole lot of rifles, or skill in their tactical use.If you're serious, get a .22, get some basic firearm training, and then practice.A .22 is great if you live somewhere where you can just step into the great outdoors for an afternoon of plinking. Great way to develop skills, but if he's going to be learning at the range, a good .30-30 is fine. Most skills development with a centerfire rifle is done with dry fire drills, not live fire. Live fire should make up only about 10% of your time expenditure in skill development with a centerfire rifle. A .22 is not necessary, even though I know that a lot of people like to say that it is.If you're dead set on starting out with a rifle, SKS fits your bill perfectlyIt could be pressed into a hunting role, but it is not ideal for it, right out of the box. It is really not ideal for it, even after some work. Food acquisition would likely be the primary concern in any attempt to survive in the wild. That said, the .30-30 lever action is more than capable of holding its own in defense against roving packs of looters, if any fire discipline is used at all. Semi-autos have a tendency to discourage good fire discipline. Most folks, armed with a semi-auto, in their first real life encounter with human threats, tend to blow off all their ammo without hitting anything within just a few seconds. This is far less likely with a .30-30 lever action. You will make each shot count. If some speed is needed, though, you can still work that lever fast.

shermacman
February 19, 2006, 10:13 AM
I don't want to hijack this thread, but what is it about TEOTWAWKI and SHTF scenarios? No one in the US has starved to death since the Civil War. The only people who go to bed hungry each night are rich suburban girls who want to look like Brittany Spears used to look like. China just announced the seventh person who has died from Bird Flu. Seven. Out of a population of 1.2 billion people we have a grand total of seven people dead.

If the food supply collapses there will be no squirrel and no deer to hunt in about two days. Every edible dog and cat will be eaten by the end of the first week. We have an agricultural system for a reason.

Aside from the philosophical fun of a mental game, what is this about?

The Real Hawkeye
February 19, 2006, 10:22 AM
I don't want to hijack this thread, but what is it about TEOTWAWKI and SHTF scenarios? No one in the US has starved to death since the Civil War. The only people who go to bed hungry each night are rich suburban girls who want to look like Brittany Spears used to look like. China just announced the seventh person who has died from Bird Flu. Seven. Out of a population of 1.2 billion people we have a grand total of seven people dead.

If the food supply collapses there will be no squirrel and no deer to hunt in about two days. Every edible dog and cat will be eaten by the end of the first week. We have an agricultural system for a reason.

Aside from the philosophical fun of a mental game, what is this about?You are wrong on so many levels. We do not live with a guarantee of civilization, law and order. This is just a thin veneer which can be stripped away in a matter of days. The bird flu is not the only threat to that veneer. If the food supply collapses, the vast majority will not be heading for the back country, but for the suburbs to loot. That's where you don't want to be when it happens. Only the few and the prepared will be heading AWAY from the trappings of civilization to ride it out. Most will want to stay where the "good people from the government" can "help" them, i.e., round them up and watch them die of thirst, disease and starvation, shooting those who dare to attempt an escape. This will be the fate of most, enforced by the military/police. You didn't learn camping and outdoor survival skills in the Boy Scouts only because it's fun to do.

SkyChaney
February 19, 2006, 10:48 AM
I just read through all the answers to my question about getting a good dual purpose hunting and antipersonnel rifle. Wow! Lots to sort through.

Guns that were suggested are: 30-30 lever action, 12 Gauge shotgun, SKS, Mini-14, Moisin Nagant, and .308 .

What about scope vs open or peep sight? What should I consider when making this decision?

By way of background, I haven't done much shooting lately. When younger, was a decent NRA marksman with a .22... and hunted rabbits and coyotes. I'll definitely need some range practice with whatever I get.

Regarding my recent attempt to prepare for emergencies... I'm not a Mormon or survivalist... I've just been reading about the potential for bird flu (check the National Geo 3 months ago). It may never come... but if it does... there will be big problems headed our way. Also, there are the risks or nuclear and bio-terrorism. I figured that I've been spending thousands of dollars on every kind of insurance we buy... why not insure my family with a year's worth of food, supplies, and a decent gun to protect us.

Here's another question. One person suggested that hunting deer may be near impossible... because everyone else will have killed them off in an emergency. We live in the desert, so there aren't big herds of deer out here anyway. Our local deer season lasts about 10 days. And I'm not an experienced deer hunter. Would it make more sense for me to plan on shooting rabbits? There are plenty of them.

If I wasn't planning on shooting deer, but rather small game. What would be a good small game and antipersonnel rifle?

I want to thank you all for your suggestions and willingness to help us out!

The Real Hawkeye
February 19, 2006, 11:05 AM
I just read through all the answers to my question about getting a good dual purpose hunting and antipersonnel rifle. Wow! Lots to sort through.

Guns that were suggested are: 30-30 lever action, 12 Gauge shotgun, SKS, Mini-14, Moisin Nagant, and .308 .

What about scope vs open or peep sight? What should I consider when making this decision?If you get one with a scope, just make sure it also has iron sights, so that when the scope breaks you can just take it off. Make sure you sight in the iron sights before you mount the scope.

By way of background, I haven't done much shooting lately. When younger, was a decent NRA marksman with a .22... and hunted rabbits and coyotes. I'll definitely need some range practice with whatever I get.

Regarding my recent attempt to prepare for emergencies... I'm not a Mormon or survivalist... I've just been reading about the potential for bird flu (check the National Geo 3 months ago). It may never come... but if it does... there will be big problems headed our way. Also, there are the risks or nuclear and bio-terrorism. I figured that I've been spending thousands of dollars on every kind of insurance we buy... why not insure my family with a year's worth of food, supplies, and a decent gun to protect us.

Here's another question. One person suggested that hunting deer may be near impossible... because everyone else will have killed them off in an emergency. We live in the desert, so there aren't big herds of deer out here anyway. Our local deer season lasts about 10 days. And I'm not an experienced deer hunter. Would it make more sense for me to plan on shooting rabbits? There are plenty of them.Yes, rabbit, squirrel, coon, possum, most small animals are edible. Now you are talking more of something like a 20 guage or a .22, though. As between the two, the 20 guage probably has the slight edge. The 20 is superior to the 12 in a survival gun because you can carry lots more rounds with you, and it is nearly equally effective on game and equally available for ammo purchase at gun shops. Slugs or buck shot could be used for the occasional big game animal, and for two legged predators, smaller shot for birds and small game.If I wasn't planning on shooting deer, but rather small game. What would be a good small game and antipersonnel rifle?Like I said above, now you are in the realm where a 20 guage shotgun might be the best choice. Pump action with a ghost ring sight would be a good idea.I want to thank you all for your suggestions and willingness to help us out!
PS, you might also want to consider a little Marksman .177 caliber pellet rifle. They are extremely lightweight, accurate, and effective on small game (with a scope, they are extremely deadly on small game out to thirty paces or more). Also very quiet (don't want to attract attention, if you can help it), and you can carry a life-time supply of ammo on your person, if you choose. This could be your game getter, and you could carry an accurate and powerful handgun for defense and the occasional deer or boar. A revolver can be loaded with shot shells, as well, for close quarter anti-snake rounds. Not as crazy as it seems. As a boy, I had no problem hunting up piles of squirrel and rabbit with my air gun. Crack of dawn provides tremendous opportunities in this regard. Get there an hour before dawn, get hidden and stay still. You will be amazed at the small game opportunities you will see.

GD
February 19, 2006, 11:20 AM
If you don't want to spend much and have a small collection, I would start with a SKS and a Mosin Nagant. The SKS is great for close up and high rates of fire. The Mosin Nagant is great for longer ranges. For game and other targets at 125 yards or less, neither rifle needs a scope. A scope on an SKS is almost worthless unless you have vision problems.
If you are in an urban area, a shotgun is a much better defensive weapon than a rifle. It is also great for bird hunting.
There are other equally fine firearms, but for ammo pricing and price of firearm, the SKS and Mosin Nagant can't be beat. You should be able to get both rifles and a 1000 rounds of ammo for both for under $400 at any decent gunshow. Last show I was at in Wichita I saw the following OTD prices: $100 Yugo SKS, $70 M91/30 Mosin, $140 7.62x39 ammo per 1K, and $62 for 880 rounds 7.62x54 ammo. When you have more funds available, stock up on ammo and practice a lot! :)
Also, plant a garden and make sure you have a good water source if you are concerned about upheavel. In the case of SHTF, you will be a target if you are planning to go out with a firearm and look for those resources.

Jim Watson
February 19, 2006, 12:09 PM
Why are you limiting yourself to one gun? And everybody here collaborating?
Unless you are planning to pack out cross country, you can have what the newspaper would call an arsenal at no great cost. And wouldn't you want your family (spouse and larger kids) to be armed, too?

Depending on your surroundings, a military surplus or conventional hunting rifle or a shotgun would do all the home defense you can expect to handle on your own and would kill any game around. A rifle AND a shotgun, see above.

Poachers kill deer with .22s with few complaints, and nobody plundering wants to be shot with anything. Ammo is inexpensive and compact, a 5000 round case doesn't take up much storage space. Cheap practice until civilization falls and you have to hoard your supply for game, defense, and barter. (Jeff Cooper thinks well of ammo as money in crisis.)

Handguns are limited in power and require more skill for results, but are portable enough to have with you ALL the time when there is risk of assault. Are you going to take your MN rifle to the outhouse (After the utilities fail?) Makarovs aren't expensive.

A thousand bucks would buy you a Communist surplus or Walmart economy rifle, a pump shotgun, a Ruger or CZ rimfire, a Makarov pistol, and a starting supply of ammunition for each.

rbernie
February 19, 2006, 01:28 PM
Here's how I solved the SHTF/TEOTWAWKI long-gun problem:


First I got a 10/22 - shoots cheap ammo and is eminently useful for small game hunting.
Then I built a parkerized chopped Remington 1100 shotgun for game and close-in social work.
Then I got a Norinco SKS for social work using cheap ubiquitous ammo.
Then I decided that I needed something more rugged and more powerful than the SKS, so I got a couple of chopped-down Enfield No4Mk1's.
Then I decided that I needed something for social work that shot both cheap/available ammo and that would take detachable hi-cap magazines, so I built an AR in 5.56 NATO.
Then I decided I needed something with more hunting appeal to keep Da Man from thinking I was too much of a wack job if they ever rummaged thru the trunk of my car, so I built a scoutified 30-30 Marlin.
Then I decided that the Enfields in 303R were too limiting in ammo availability so I bought a chopped-up Ishy 2A in 308 and scoutified it.
Then I decided that I needed a more accurate medium-range hunting rifle, so I built a couple of 7.62x39 AR's.
Then I decided that the 10/22 was too fancy for long-term use back-country, so I built a couple of chopped Marlin 25's.
Then I decided that pistol-caliber carbines could be useful if they took the same ammo and mags as my sidearm, so I got a Marlin Camp 45 that uses my 1911 magazines.

In other words, I still haven't solved the question yet but I'm having fun trying. ;)

MatthewVanitas
February 19, 2006, 01:34 PM
If you're looking to ease into this, a good .22 might be just the ticket.

A Marlin 60 costs $99 here in Texas, a Ruger 10/22 runs $130. Both are US-made rifles of great reputation, and will probably outlast you with basic maintenance. Cheap ammo runs around 1.5c per round. Don't buy a scope right away, get used to the iron sights, and you might find that you really don't need a scope for your purposes.

Check your local game laws, follow the procedure, and go add some of those local rabbits you mentioned to your cookpot. Should be a great practical drill.

Should something apocalyptic occur between your .22 purchase and your future rifle purchase, a .22LR is far, far better than no gun at all. If you're scaring off one or two troublemakers, you're pretty set. If you're attacked by the classic "marauding horde of zombie bikers", or any sizeable group of people, even an FN belt-fed .30cal machinegun isn't going to be enough, so no point in sweating the details.

Get a .22LR, shoot the heck out of it, and then apply your "lessons learned" from the .22 to your future firearms purchase. If disaster strikes, you're still far better armed than the folks who don't have a .22 rifle.

-MV

colt.45
February 19, 2006, 01:38 PM
a mini-30 is a good bet. it is accurate enough for hunting and home protection. the performance of 7.62x39 is almost identical to 30-30, and it is probably the most used and avalable round in the world.

a good accurate bolt action is the perferred hunting rifle, and in a fight it is a sure demoraliser.

MechAg94
February 19, 2006, 02:44 PM
I like the idea of a lever gun myself. If money is really an issue, an SKS or Mosin-Nagant rifle would be good choices. If you can spend a little more, a lever gun would good. Beyond that, a Garand might be a good choice. CMP has cheap ammo and the Korean corrosive surplus is still out there. I guess 'cheap' is a relative term for different people.

As far as SHTF, I think that one poster is right about game being scarce. City people may stay near the city, but there are a LOT of people who live outside the city in and near small towns. Pretty much anywhere within 300 miles of Houston is dotted with small towns and plots of land. The population density is high enough that if people had to depend on hunting, there wouldn't be a lot of game around. That being said, there is a lot of farming in this area and a lot of land that could be turned back to farming if the equipment was available. It would all depend on how stable things were.

Zen21Tao
February 19, 2006, 03:18 PM
I would have to side with people recomending a .308 semi-auto, perhaps an HK G3, a Saiga, an AR, or a FAL. Bulk surplus for .308 is still readily available (much of the 7.62x39 has dried up) and very accurate.

I actually have 2 ARs (both .223), an HK G3, and am building a FAL. If I was looking for a single rifle to fulfill your requirements it be the AR in a .308 (DPMS Panther) becaues it has the most options for accesserizing. You can add a scope riser w/scope that is easily added or removed, tactical style handgards that will allow a front grip to be added and removed quickly. Add a telescoping stock. What you would have is a rifle that is capable of going from a scoped hunting rifle to a tactical CQB rifle in seconds.

kennyboy
February 19, 2006, 11:31 PM
It depends on what your hunting regulations are. If you can only hunt with manually operated weapons, I'd say a Remington 7600. This is a pump so you can get rounds off quickly. It is chambered for .270, .30-06, and I think .308. A lever action will also work. They come in a crapload of calibers.
If there are no weapon restrictions, a BAR, Benelli R1 or whatever it's called, Armalite AR-10 (.308), Bushmaster .308, or best yet, Springfield M1A Socom in .308. With these guns, you can put out a lot of lead and have substantial takedown power for deer or bandits. I do not recommend .223 rifles since you want to shoot deer. While the .223 can easily down deer, the bigger bullets like the .308 have a better guarantee of a kill. Also, range is increased.

roscoe
February 20, 2006, 12:10 AM
You asked about sights: a peep-style is far preferable, if you can get it. You can get good after-market peep sights for two rifles I recommend: the 30-30 and the SKS. If you want a scope, they can be added, but if you damage it and don't have good iron sights, yer out of luck.

Rabbits - use a .22 or a shotgun. You might want to have both anyway - they can be had for very little money and are very versatile.

The main thing is - learn to shoot what you have well, and with the iron sights!

The Real Hawkeye
February 20, 2006, 12:32 AM
I guess few have considered this, but as I said earlier, you would not believe what an efficient small game getter a pellet rifle makes. I have two Beemans. Both of them are responsible for quite a lot of squirrel over the last 20 years, and some rabbits too. And the thing about them is that you can buy tons of ammo cheap, and carry enough for years of survival hunting on your person (couple of tins would do). And the really big point is that they are completely quiet. You will not attract attention to yourself, which is a biggy in a survival situation. You ought to have at least one good air rifle, preferably in .22 caliber, as it hits harder and knocks squirrels down faster wth a solid hit than .177.

SkyChaney
February 20, 2006, 01:24 AM
Someone mentioned using a 20 gauge shotgun for small game. How would it work as an antipersonnel gun... with buckshot? What brands of 20 gauges are affordable and decent?

Domino
February 20, 2006, 01:25 AM
If I were in your shoes and I didn't wanted to spend very much money, I would get a Saiga .308 synthetic. They run for around $300, can accept optics and scopes, and they are durable, accurate, and powerful enough for your needs.

http://www.saigacentral.com/saigaretail012006.pdf

For a little more money (around $6-700) I would get some sort of FAL clone. Just like the Saiga except it has hi-cap mags, better ergonomics, and is more asthetically pleasing.

Nematocyst
February 20, 2006, 01:36 AM
My user name will identify me as a fan of shotguns.
They are useful tools. I sleep with mine just inches away.

But you asked about rifles, so I'll honor the topic of your thread.

After much research, here's my vote for the optimal rifle caliber:

7mm08 (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=182828).

Just buy lots and lots of rnds,
or learn to reload (maybe you do already).

Good luck with what's coming (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/02/16/60minutes/main1323169.shtml).

Nem

mp510
February 20, 2006, 01:49 AM
The nice thing about a shotgun for your situation, would be the ability to hunt small game or largeer game (deer), without having to make any modification, you would also be able to shoot birds, and protect your home. Basically, you would just need to choose the right ammo for the job:
birdshot for birds, small game (rabbits)
slugs for deer
slugs or buckshot for home defense.
If you decide to go shotgun, I would recommend a pump.

If you want a semi-auto rifle , the SKS is a great choice, has .30-30 like ballistics, is semi auto, uterly reliable, and are affordable and common right know.

myrmindon
February 20, 2006, 01:56 AM
The .223 is a little under gunned for large game but than sufficient for small game imo but a well placed shot is all it would take for Deer (head) But the 30/30 would be a better choice if all your looking to do is hunt Deer/anti-personnel. A remington 870 express would also be a good choice. As it is a cheap and reliable firearm to hunt/protect as you can chamber it in the 2 3/" or 3". with an array of ammo.
the .223 also has a advantage when looking for low cost ammo as you can buy it in surplus.

For a scope on a 30/30 you and mount it with weaver Raised mount rings to utilize both the iron sights or a scope. may not be the best rings on the market but the only ones ive used on a 30/30 or a 10/22.

and a good 3x9 scope would be sufficient for a 30/30 or a .223 in the applications you have put forth

I have never mounted a scope on a shot gun so i could not even give an opion on it.

beerslurpy
February 20, 2006, 02:07 AM
*** is wrong with you people? The AK is the best fit for combined deer + SHTF. Ammo is cheap, plentiful and light to carry. More than enough power for anything you might want to shoot at.

A shotgun will let you go after smaller game like rabbits and cats, but you would be better off just getting a 22 pistol and keeping it on your belt for when there arent any looters or deer to shoot. But the holstered pistol wont handicap your range during the people-shooting portion of the SHTF course, while a shotgun definitely will.

30-30 is too expensive and cant be bought in bulk. We did this discussion to death a few months ago and the only real justification for the 30-30 over 7.62x39 is that it has deer-stopping power out to farther than the AK due to using heavier bullets. The AK and its cartridge completely smash the 30-30 guns in every other measureable way. More range, cheaper ammo, guns more ergonomic, semiauto > lever, etc etc. Admittedly not important for hunting deer, but very important for defending against human adversaries.

Srigs
February 20, 2006, 02:15 AM
My choices:

10/22 - Game and antipersonnel
12 Gauge - Game and anti
762 NATO Semi G3/91/CETME clone - Game and anti
40S&W Carbine - anti

I would use a 30-30 lever action any day! :D

Nematocyst
February 20, 2006, 02:18 AM
A shotgun will let you go after smaller game like rabbits and cats, but you would be better off just getting a 22 pistol and keeping it on your belt for when there arent any looters or deer to shoot. If a cracked out dude comes through my {choose one or more: window, door, wall...},
i'll take an 870P 12 ga with 00 & slugs over the .22 pistol 24/7/365.

For getting to said shotgun: 9mm pistol, OWB holster.
For squirrel & rabbit: CZ452 .22LR.
For birds: 870P with 26" barrel, #8 shot
For antelope, deer (white tail, mule & elk), goat & sheep:
7mm08 in a quality bolt action rifle
For ccw in polite society: SW 642 .38 +p

Nem

beerslurpy
February 20, 2006, 02:26 AM
Dude, main gun is an AK. The pistol isnt replacing the shotgun, the AK and the pistol together are replacing the shotgun. You use the AK vs humans and deer and you dont use the pistol unless you are shooting rabbits or birds. Illegal or not, 22 is a great small game caliber.

7.62x39 beats 12 ga in every measureable way except close-range first-shot stopping power. Range, accuracy, ammo capacity, accuracy, recoil, ammo cost,
armor and barrier penetration all massively favor the AK.

I would be open to the use of a shotgun if there was a pistol that could realistically fill in for the AK as a combat weapon, but there just isnt. For me in SHTF, job number 1 is vs human, job number 2 is animals too small to be killed with the AK.

MatthewVanitas
February 20, 2006, 02:35 AM
I'm backing beerslurpy here: if you can afford $350 or so for the AK (vice $99 for the Moisin Nagant), try one of those.

That'll cover you for defense, and the .22 will cover you for small game and as a backup defense rifle.

When out hunting dove, it's occurred to me that in an actual survival situation I wouldn't be blasting dozens of shotgun pellets at the doves swooping over my head, I'd be nailing the ones on the fenceposts with a .22.

I'd say beerslurpy is right-on IRT the downsides of the 30-30 at the shotgun.

Nothing personal Nematocyst, but where are you going to buy bulk-packs of 7mm-08 for less than 20c per round? I really don't see that the 7mm has such an advantage over 308 so as to justify completely ignoring the supplies of military ammo.

Dang, this topic hits too many of my buttons.

-MV

pete f
February 20, 2006, 02:38 AM
Having read all the questions and the responses. I humbly answer that I would suggest two weapons to start.

A good quality .22 rifle. Auto, bolt, lever, it is up to you (and your later choice,) would be my first offering. Will function as a prime small game getter, suffice as a last ditch anti-personel weapon, especially if TEOTWAWKI happens. In a non-antibiotic-rich environment almost any sort of a GSW is going to be not good and people are going to choose to take from those who do not have the fight back capacity. Ammunition is very cheap. In Suburbia indoor practice is pretty easy to acomplish, some lo Vel ammo and a few city phone books will work as a backstop. So will a stump. I have a 18 inch diameter white oak log that is about 2 feet in length that has stopped maybe 4000 .22 CBEE's. Now this is probably illegal in your community as it is in my, but in a poured concrete foundation on a big suburban lot, you can not hear my shots even when standing at the front door. get lots of practice. Get a small game license if you need one in your state. Hunt and eat what you kill.


Second would be a 870 Express combo. Local costs run around 300 bucks, this comes with a 26 or 28 remchoked barrel AND a 18 or 20 inch deer barrel. Some of these will be rifled deer barrels and some will be smoothbores. I would stay with the smooth bore only for the reason that the rifled barrels do not work well with buck shot at anything past a few yards, as the centrifugal force of the rotation or spin of the shot cup radically opens the pattern of any pellet load. The smooth bore is not going to be as accurate as a rifled barrel when loaded with slugs but it does help with the buckshot for in house or close defense. I would add what we called a swat tube or mag tube extension. I prefer the Remington branded ones as well as the CHoate Machine brands... they seem to hold up the best. You can swap back to the bird barrel for trips to the skeet range and the hunting grounds.

Now a third point. you have the Years worth of food. Good for you. You need to keep this info to yourself. Or you WILL be needed a dedicated defensive rifle. For this the SKS is a wonderful tool. Cheap in cost but not in value. Most are very well made and excellent on man sized targets to 250 yards, maybe more. Ammo comes and goes on deals but at times gets down below 2 bucks a box of 20. Several years ago I bought several cases at 89 bucks for a case of 1300 or so. all sealed in sardine can type containers and probably good for a hundred years. Really fun to shoot, they hardly kick at all. Loaded with good Rem or Win ammo for deer hunting or other larger game very accurate and do a good job of putting food on the table. I have a couple of good Norinco's and some Yugo's.

If you live where neighbors are not a problem, I would investigate the legality of shooting on your property and get a lot of practice in. If not, shoot in your basement if you can.


If you live in the desert, alone and with wide open spaces around. then a decent 308 bolt gun would perhaps be a better third choice. A savage or remington sporter in 308 with a nice 4x scope on it would be able to keep MNB's a long way off provided you were able to get first notice.

My First choice still stands get a .22, a half decent one and get back into it.

roscoe
February 20, 2006, 02:41 AM
*** is wrong with you people? The AK is the best fit for combined deer + SHTF.
Fair enough, providing you get an accurate AK. My Saiga really keeps em tight, but some AKs have worse reputations. The thing is that you sort have to know AKs to pick one out.

The AK vs SKS thing may apply here- the SKS is a bit more accurate and just as reliable, and they are largely all the same. It also depends whether appearances matter to you. It does to some people who have to live in anti-gun areas or with people who don't really like guns.

When I break out the Winchester for show and tell people don't cringe; the Saiga or SKS sometimes gets a different reaction. I would not feel undergunned with any of them, unless it really is Mad Max time.

Incidentally, you also have a better variety of 30-30 ammo, from cowboy loads for round-the-house work, to the new Hornady stuff for longer range work. You can get 110 grains to 170 - quite a variety, depending on the use. AK/SKS ammo is all 125 grain.

Also - yes to the .22. It will be the primary gamegetter if it comes to it.

By the way - this is everyone's favorite topic, so get ready to hear every opinion out there.

beerslurpy
February 20, 2006, 03:08 AM
AK ammo is available in 122-123 gr hp, sp and FJ and in 154 SPs for starters. It used to be available in 110 grain TAP from hornady, but they lost a lot of money on that and discontinued it.

Half my mags are loaded with uly match and the other half with wolf SP.

Don't Tread On Me
February 20, 2006, 03:10 AM
I agree with Beerslurpy,


The AK is the best 4 legged & 2 legged critter gun out there.


Think about it like this. You're really after 2 types of game. Obviously, the 2 legged game is far and away much more dangerous. So much so, that at least 90% of the rifle consideration should be geared towards this medium sized, ultra-dangerous game.


I'd say an AR-15 would be good too, BUT - not for deer, which is the other 10% of the equation. Get something good against the dangerous game first, and in a SHTF - you'll be able to take deer with it too. Remember, if starvation is a reality - no one gives a s*** about humane kills or sportsmanship. You just want to make sure you can stop the deer. You won't want it surviving and getting away, or running so far off that retrival is difficult.

Nematocyst
February 20, 2006, 03:33 AM
7.62x39 beats 12 ga in every measureable way except close-range first-shot stopping power. Which is all I'm interested in with my shotgun
(except for birds, and the 26" barrel will deal with those).

YMMV.

Nem

Koobuh
February 20, 2006, 05:07 AM
The only 'do all' longarm that could seriously be recommended is a 12 gauge pump-action shotgun. That will do 95% of anything you have business doing in a survival or self defense situation, and you will ALWAYS be able to get 12 gauge ammunition- it's almost as ubiquitous as .22LR, and cheap too.
That said, a good rifle for hunting and social uses?
Just get a $100 Mosin Nagant carbine and stock up on: 1. Surplus ammo for practice 2. New ammo for serious use (like when you don't know how long you will have to wait for the next cleaning) and 3. a bore snake for practical use and a standard cleaning kit + a couple cans of outers bore foam cleaner for after-range use (when you've been shooting surplus ammo).
Perfectly realistically, $200 at most gunshows should get you a M-38, at least 400 rounds of surplus ammo, and a tidy kit of gear to clean your new rifle with. That will keep you in business for a looong time, depending of course on how much you shoot at each range visit.

Nothing takes and loves abuse like a russian rifle. :)

GW
February 20, 2006, 06:11 AM
The only 'do all' longarm that could seriously be recommended is a 12 gauge pump-action shotgun. That will do 95% of anything you have business doing in a survival or self defense situation, and you will ALWAYS be able to get 12 gauge ammunition-

I gotta disagree The one "Do-all" longarm weapon is a .308 mag-fed semi-auto rifle My preference being an M1A.
You are good out to 600 yards vs 100-150 yards for the shotgun .308 will take down deer or Communist-zombies (Combies? Com-Zoms?) at the above mentioned ranges
Surplus ammo is still cheap enough for practice and mag fed-ness will keep zombie hordes at bay as you thin them out from 600 yds plus on in, not to mention nailing the ones that hide behind trees!
get something cheap right now ala SKS or Moisin in order to obey Rule 1 of gunfighting, but then scrimp and save to get that M1A (or FAL or H&K or even Armalite)
Your future generations will thank you

Koobuh
February 20, 2006, 06:25 AM
I gotta disagree The one "Do-all" longarm weapon is a .308 mag-fed semi-auto rifle My preference being an M1A.
You are good out to 600 yards vs 100-150 yards for the shotgun .308 will take down deer or Communist-zombies (Combies? Com-Zoms?) at the above mentioned ranges

Notice I said 'anything you have business doing'. And be serious for heaven's sake. Everyone knows we'll be fighting aliens, not zombies. ;)
Why on earth would you be taking long shots on tangoes? Unless you're assaulting a position or 'sniping', I mean, the former of which is suicide and the latter stupid. Planning for long distance engagement is unwise, unless absolutely, positively necessary, and even then you should be wondering why you're engaging at more than 50 yards in a survival situation. Run away or let them come to you.

Long shots on game in a SHTF situation is asking for trouble. Hunting when you have to worry about what the noise of your weapon is attracting is a get-in-get-out venture. Close, clean shots are all you should be taking.
For that matter, shotguns are perfectly acceptable game takers no matter the social situation, see for example all the areas/seasons for deer that are shotgun only.
Won't be taking much fowl with that rifle, either, unless they're sitting in a tree staring at you. God help any people downrange, though.

ReadyontheRight
February 20, 2006, 06:41 AM
A rifle for deer and self-defense:

Least expensive: Mosin Nagant as described above. No reason NOT to get one. Cheap, solid gun with cheap ammo available - just be sure to clean right after firing.

http://www.surplusrifle.com/mosincarbine/graphics/m44.jpg

Mid-range expensive: A good bolt-action rifle in .308 or 30-06. The biggest problem here is that if you buy new, it may be difficult to find one with iron sights (at least it is around here). For your application, you want iron sights as a back-up. Buying used might be the way to go.

The "scout" rifle concept is designed for your needs. Savage Scout in .308 (no longer made), the new Ruger M77 Frontier (I'm not sure if it has iron sights) or the more expensive Steyer Scout would be perfect. Lightweight, big enough caliber for self-defense or large animals, long-eye relief scope for better target acquisition, back-up sights. Great concept, but not a lot of rifles out there.

Nothing wrong with a shotgun or .22 as well. ANY gun can protect you.

In your shoes, I'd get:

-Ruger M77 International in 30-06 w/ iron sights and a Leupold scope w/ quick-release rings. (AVOID "peep-through" scope rings - makes you lose your cheek weld and shoot poorly)
-Remington 870 12ga - 26" barrel - 18.5" if no bird hunting.
-.22 pistol - Ruger or Browning

And probably a .357 wheelgun or .45acp 1911 handgun depending on how interested I was in hunting vs. self-defense.

My $0.02.

LAK
February 20, 2006, 07:21 AM
What Lawson (and others) have said. A Marlin or Win 94 30-30 is an excellent general purpose rifle. Another IMO would be the CZ 527 bolt-action in 7.62x39.

I also think any good military surplus rifle like the Mosin-Nagant, SMLE, Mauser 98s, K31 etc would be fine. If you can afford the ammo costs any good quality sporting rifle chambered for a popular cartridge between .243 and about .35 caliber.

Ammo costs can vary greatly and rise and fall; look for the good buys and buy as much as you can when you can. Stockpile it so to speak one step at time. Learn what shoots best in your gun, aquire as much as possible, shoot the lesser stuff for practice etc.
------------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

Nematocyst
February 20, 2006, 07:36 AM
A Marlin or Win 94 30-30 is an excellent general purpose rifle.
Another IMO would be the CZ 527 bolt-action in 7.62x39. There's no reason to argue with those statements.

.30-30 has stood the test of time for decades.

Winchester was there. CZ has produced fine guns.

Bolt actions are accurate over long distances.

7.62...what else should be said?
(loaded statement; verbal encouragement)

Then, there's 7mm08 (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=182828).

N

jd25q
February 20, 2006, 09:46 AM
*** is wrong with you people? The AK is the best fit for combined deer + SHTF. Ammo is cheap, plentiful and light to carry. More than enough power for anything you might want to shoot at.

Ok... Let's face it, the guy wants a hunting rifle he can use for self defense in the unlikely event the hordes invade his desert home in search of food???

The AK would make a terrible deer rifle. Particularly in the desert where shots are going to be long. If you're deer hunting in open country where deer are already scarce don't handicap yourself further by picking a short range cartridge in an inaccurate platform. You'll be very dissapointed.

Get a good bolt rifle. I'd go along with a 30-30 or 44mag lever action except that you are in the desert. Think long range accuracy. The remington pump wasn't a bad suggestion either.

Whatever you get budget for some reloading equipment so ammo cost isn't such a concern. Stock up on brass, and re-use it. A bolt gun (and perhaps a slide action) will allow you to neck size the brass, it will last a lot longer. Maybe 15 shots per case. Of course an automatic will make recovering that brass more difficult.

beerslurpy
February 20, 2006, 09:59 AM
The AK works vs deer at any range the 30-30 does.

The only disadvantage compared to 308 is that depending on the gun, 308 might stretch another 300-500 yards. A huge benefit if you need the range, but useless extra weight if you dont. Under 300 yards they arent going to have radically different behavior. Both will be nearly flat and both will hurt when they hit.

jd25q
February 20, 2006, 10:19 AM
I would think in the desert many shots at deer would likely be in the 300 to 400 yard range. 7.62x39 is a 200 yard deer cartridge at best. In an inaccurate platform such as an ak, 200 is stretching it. The ak has it's place, but I don't think it fits very well as a desert hunting rifle.

roscoe
February 20, 2006, 10:20 AM
I don't see too many taking shots at beyond 300 yards, even in the desert. That is a long way.

Bolt actions are, undeniably, reliable and effective, unless you get in a little closer where you might need to fire a bit faster. I wouldn't want one inside 25yards, should the zombies get past your coils of concertina wire.

With a semi (or lever), you can get rounds off faster if you need to.

If you really plan on shooting deer at 500 yards, you need a different rifle, and a lot of practice.

jd25q
February 20, 2006, 10:35 AM
Here's a link to the best suggestion I've seen so far:

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_rifles/model_7600.asp

You can get a bigger magazine if you like. I would prefer the slide action to the automatic 7400. Reason being that you could probably get away with neck sizing your brass at least every other firing. This will allow you to use it much more often. Short range threat? I've seen it used with a 10 round magazine to wipe out a pack of dogs. 10 shots, small moving targets, close range, 9 dead dogs.

Roadkill
February 20, 2006, 11:06 AM
This is sort of like a merry go round, we've all been on it before but for some reason still love the ride. And we all see different things each time we go. The ride for me now is much different than when I was a kid. My choice from what I have:

1. 30-30 Marlin, 9x variable scope, 8 lbs of IMR 4895, 1,000 150g sp bullets, 1,000 large rifle primers.

2. Anshutz 1451 .22 bolt actiom , 9x variable scope, 5,000 rounds 22lr.

3. Ruger Blackhawk .357 with 9mm conversion. 5 lbs Red dot, 5,000 large pistol primers, 1,000 124g fmj, 1,000 125g sps

4. Ithaca Mod 37 12 ga, 200 slugs, 200 OO, 200 #6, 500 #8.


All are proven guns, parts are common, calibers are common, I could use any .7.62, .38, .357, 9mm projectile for reloading.

rk

Headless Thompson Gunner
February 20, 2006, 01:16 PM
The AK-47 is such a crude weapon. Crude is good if you're a starving 3rd world militiaman fighting in a brush war. Crude is not so good for the situation under discussion here.

Game animals generally don't wait around for you to miss on your first few shots. Neither do criminal attackers. Fast and accurate hits, especially on the first shot, are critical.

The leverguns and bolt actions can easily be set up with the best possible sights and triggers. Good sights and trigger pull are invaluable when shooting in the field, when you have to make the most of each and every shot you take.

The AK is fine weapon, but it's simply not the right tool for making the most of every round you fire. The wretched trigger pull, poor sights, and marginal accuracy of the AK conspire to make hitting your target much slower and more difficult than it needs to be.

rbernie
February 20, 2006, 01:29 PM
The AK is fine weapon, but it's simply not the right tool for making the most of every round you fire. The wretched trigger pull, poor sights, and marginal accuracy of the AK conspire to make hitting your target much slower and more difficult than it needs to be. I'm a Marlin guy, and even I feel that this characterization is unfair. AK triggers really aren't bad (unless the importer screwed 'em up), their sights are no worse than the iron sights that ship with virtually every levergun made, and they're really capable of accuracy on par with a levergun *if* properly put together.

Put a crude CAI-assembled AK up against a Marlin 336 and the Marlin 336 will be superior in all of the ways mentioned. Put a properly set up AK against the Marlin and the outcome of the shootout becomes much murkier. A body could do much worse for a go-to rifle than a well-sorted AK with a simple low-power optic or aperture rear sight....

itgoesboom
February 20, 2006, 01:41 PM
I don't want to hijack this thread, but what is it about TEOTWAWKI and SHTF scenarios? No one in the US has starved to death since the Civil War. The only people who go to bed hungry each night are rich suburban girls who want to look like Brittany Spears used to look like. China just announced the seventh person who has died from Bird Flu. Seven. Out of a population of 1.2 billion people we have a grand total of seven people dead.

If the food supply collapses there will be no squirrel and no deer to hunt in about two days. Every edible dog and cat will be eaten by the end of the first week. We have an agricultural system for a reason.

Aside from the philosophical fun of a mental game, what is this about?


1. Bird flu is responsible for more deaths than just in China. It is hitting Europe, the Middle East, and Asia. Right now it hasn't made the Human-2-Human leap, meaning it is not readily transmisible from human-2-human. It might make that leap at any point, and be just as contagious as the regular flu or the common cold. But with a 70%+ lethality rate.

It might never make that leap. But right now it is symbolic of a impending disaster that will someday hit humanity. Might be next year, 50 years from now, or 1,000 years from now.

2. Animals will survive. Most people in America don't hunt, most don't own hunting firearms, and even those that do don't have much ammo for their weapons. Animals will become scarce as hunting pressure increases, so those with actual hunting skills will still find animals.

3. There are many other situations where having a defensive rifle will help you survive. Think of the looting in New Orleans, and imagine your local city going through that. Think of the race riots in L.A.


As for my recommendation, I think you will have a hard time going wrong as long as you get a reliable rifle, lots of ammo, and get skilled at using it.

You need to decide what range you would need to shoot at, both defensivly, and while hunting, and decide what game you will be going after when you hunt.

If you are going after rabbits, than I would say a .22lr rifle (hey, it's cheap, get it anyways). If you are going after deer, I would say a good bolt action or lever action.

I.G.B.

Headless Thompson Gunner
February 20, 2006, 01:51 PM
I'm a Marlin guy, and even I feel that this characterization is unfair. AK triggers really aren't bad (unless the importer screwed 'em up), their sights are no worse than the iron sights that ship with virtually every levergun made, and they're really capable of accuracy on par with a levergun *if* properly put together.

Put a crude CAI-assembled AK up against a Marlin 336 and the Marlin 336 will be superior in all of the ways mentioned. Put a properly set up AK against the Marlin and the outcome of the shootout becomes much murkier. A body could do much worse for a go-to rifle than a well-sorted AK with a simple low-power optic or aperture rear sight....
I've borrowed a number of AK-47s at the range. None of them would shoot straight for me. Most of 'em even went out of their way to beat up my trigger finger. But maybe I had the random bad luck to only run accross the crude CAI-type AKs.

If you can make the commie rifles shoot, then more power to you. They're fine weapons and they'll serve you well.

But as for me, I'll take a No.4 SMLE or a Garand over any AK. In my hands, even a ghost-ring sighted Mossberg 12 guage makes for a better rifle. :o

A Marlin .30-30 is downright luxurious compared to an AK. At least, that's been my experience.

roscoe
February 20, 2006, 02:19 PM
Try a Saiga - you might be surprised. Mine (in .223) is as accurate as my Winchester 30-30, which is pretty accurate in its own right.

ReadyontheRight
February 20, 2006, 03:28 PM
I forgot to post my high-end choice -- a .308 battle rifle like an M1A -- Probably in a scout-type configuration like the Springfield SOCOM16:

http://www.springfield-armory.com/images/rifles/SOCOM16.jpg

Or an AR-10 like the DPMS Panther AP4:

http://www.pantherarms.com/images/RFA2-308AP4.jpg

Both are $1K+ plus additional for optics (and ammo).

GW
February 20, 2006, 03:34 PM
Notice I said 'anything you have business doing'. And be serious for heaven's sake. Everyone knows we'll be fighting aliens, not zombies. ;)
Why on earth would you be taking long shots on tangoes? Unless you're assaulting a position or 'sniping', I mean, the former of which is suicide and the latter stupid. Planning for long distance engagement is unwise, unless absolutely, positively necessary, and even then you should be wondering why you're engaging at more than 50 yards in a survival situation. Run away or let them come to you.

Long shots on game in a SHTF situation is asking for trouble. Hunting when you have to worry about what the noise of your weapon is attracting is a get-in-get-out venture. Close, clean shots are all you should be taking.
For that matter, shotguns are perfectly acceptable game takers no matter the social situation, see for example all the areas/seasons for deer that are shotgun only.
Won't be taking much fowl with that rifle, either, unless they're sitting in a tree staring at you. God help any people downrange, though.

Because the fellow who started this thread lives in the desert which I would assume to be very open area where long shots would be expected. Assuming some degree of isolation I wouldn't worry too much about downrange especially if I'm fighting for the safety of my family. and in regard to birds-- trap 'em
Shotgun ammo is too expensive to waste on birds in a TEOTWAWKI situation. Until you get into Geese-sized birds, the meat gained for the ammo spent factor just doesn't pay off.
As for noise a shotgun is darn noisy in its own right so stealth in either case is moot

MinScout
February 20, 2006, 04:44 PM
Get a Remington 760/7600 .308 for yourself and an 870 20 guage youth model for the wife. That should cover everything.

Limeyfellow
February 20, 2006, 05:01 PM
and in regard to birds-- trap 'em
Shotgun ammo is too expensive to waste on birds in a TEOTWAWKI situation. Until you get into Geese-sized birds, the meat gained for the ammo spent factor just doesn't pay off.


I have to agree with this comments. If you are wasting ammo for birds and small animals you are not doing it right. Much better to set up some traps and snares and perserve your ammo. You could also make your own bows and arrows and have a renewable way to carry on shooting. That way you can setup a dozen places to catch animals and you have a much better chance of hitting something.

OldWolf
February 20, 2006, 05:14 PM
IMHO

The optimal rifle for you is one that you can afford to shoot a lot. If you are not well off financially, buy any of the milsurp bolt actions and 1000’s of rounds of ammunition. If you are well off, buy an expensive semi auto and 1000’s of rounds of ammo.

In both cases you have to shoot a lot. If you don’t like recoil to much, then that can be your guiding light.

Most of the milsurp bolt actions kick quite a bit. The 6.5x55 is a nice shooter (Swedish Mauser), mild recoil, but the ammo is not as cheap as the Mosin’s ammo. The 7.62x39’s, while being inexpensive per cartridge, are not too accurate, good enough for hunting though. Might be a lot more accurate in a bolt action, CZ has one.

I like the 30-30 idea, downside is the ammo still costs about 20 cents each even when you reload. Recoil is very manageable.

I have decided that for me, the best choice is an AR based rifle. I know this is not the first choice of many people. Reasons: very accurate with inexpensive Wolf ammo, about 10 cents a pop.

If you are not an enthusiastic shooter, one that likes to fire 100 or so rounds a week, and think you will get the rifle out every 3 or 4 months to shoot some targets, then I like the Mosin Nagant path of thought with a recoil boot from a gun store to ease the pain a little.

Another consideration is the ever possible change in gun laws. Quite possible that our semi auto rifles will be outlawed some day. I think bolt action and lever action rifles will be the last to be taken from our cold hands.

If you are really afraid of confiscation, there are a lot of very nice single shot rifles out now. My first choice would be a Ruger #1 in .223 or .308, both rounds available in milsurp 5.56 and 7.62.

For myself, I have stockpiles of .22 LR, .223, 30-30 and 12 gauge ammo and a few firearms to accompany them.

colt.45
February 20, 2006, 05:33 PM
I guess few have considered this, but as I said earlier, you would not believe what an efficient small game getter a pellet rifle makes. I have two Beemans. Both of them are responsible for quite a lot of squirrel over the last 20 years, and some rabbits too. And the thing about them is that you can buy tons of ammo cheap, and carry enough for years of survival hunting on your person (couple of tins would do). And the really big point is that they are completely quiet. You will not attract attention to yourself, which is a biggy in a survival situation. You ought to have at least one good air rifle, preferably in .22 caliber, as it hits harder and knocks squirrels down faster wth a solid hit than .177.

you are correct sir!!! i have bagged plenty of squirrels, rabbits, opposum and on one occasion i have taken a couple of pesky racoons raiding the trash:cuss: i modified my crosman 1760's valve and it will shoot an 8.5 grain pelet 850fps:D.

blackhawk2000
February 20, 2006, 10:30 PM
FAL
PTR-91
Cetme

holding baby hard 2 type


eta:M14

roscoe
February 21, 2006, 12:40 AM
Can you tell us if you really are only going to get one weapon? Or can you get several, because really you have many roles you want filled by your rifle.

Look at all the recommendations before you!

bearmgc
February 21, 2006, 12:13 PM
I have an older Rem pump 760 in 30-06 with the stock trimmed down for faster bring up shots. I had it serviced this month by my gunsmith to check for parts etc that may need replacing. He didn't have to replace a darn thing, and action was clean as a whistle. This rifle is over 30 yrs old. Yes I clean all my rifles regularly. But think about maintenance of firearms as well as reliabilty. Will these rifles be hard to clean, or do they eat up parts often? Other considerations have already been discussed like milsurps, Mosins, Enfields, and a 30-30 lever. These are also very durable and easy to clean.

Nematocyst
February 24, 2006, 05:31 AM
We do not live with a guarantee of civilization, law and order. This is just a thin veneer which can be stripped away in a matter of days. The bird flu is not the only threat to that veneer. If the food supply collapses, the vast majority will not be heading for the back country, but for the suburbs to loot...You didn't learn camping and outdoor survival skills in the Boy Scouts only because it's fun to do. Whew. Agree with significant parts of that, even it not quite all.

I may differ with the assertion of 'vast majority', but agree that the proportion of those "heading...for the suburbs" will be measurable and substantial. :uhoh:

Indeed, it seems that the more civil folks over in Iraq are learning about the need for camp skills just about now.

I wish them good fortune.

I've posted in this thread ... maybe, 3 times.

But somehow, I missed that set of paragraphs the first 3 times.

Admittedly, some of us learned those BIG MOUNTAIN/DESERT survival skills in other ways than the Boy Scouts.

Mine came during serious backpacking/mountaineering in the high country (+10,800') of NM/CO, 1985 ~ 1996. (See attached image. Rock Lake, Weminuche Wilderness, ~12,000'. 2nd wk of food brought in via llamas.
We visited the base of the distant peak, 'the Guardian', at the beginning of wk 3.)

Still, point taken.

We didn't learn survival skills ONLY because ... they're fun to do. ;)

Hey, maybe someday there will be
a THR mountain/desert survival retreat.

:D

Think?

:cool:

Nem

blackhawk2000
February 24, 2006, 08:03 PM
Nothing is better for anti-personnel use, than a mag fed gun (belt fed not included). Guns that are slow to reload, are not the best choice for defensive uses. There are plenty of high cap, accurate, military pattern rifles, in a suitable, readily available hunting caliber. .308/7.62x51 is probably the best bang for the buck, and the most readily available. Mil surp, match loads, and new production general usage ammo, is still easy to get. Pick a .308, mil pattern, mag fed rifle that you like, and IMO there really is no other answer to your question.

rangerruck
February 24, 2006, 10:24 PM
monarch is now starting to make all the major calibre ammo in their own label boxes. here in houston at academy you cna get all the ammo from 223 up to 30 06 for about 6 bucks a box.

rangerruck
February 24, 2006, 10:30 PM
if youmust fight off the zombie hordes, then you must go semiauto. i would get either a Saiga, or a sks, last but not least an ak. the all take hi cap mags, dont cost a lot of money, and ammo is cheap and everywhere. the saiga and the sks will be more acc out to distance, but more bulky and heavier, but not by much. the ammo can take out any zombie or most north american animals, out to 200 yds. you can also do a semi in 308, all the same goodies as above, but the one drawback is the ammo to carry is about 35% heavier. you will also pretty much double your kill distance, and could take down a moose if necessary.

beerslurpy
February 24, 2006, 10:47 PM
Mostly the complaints against the AK seem to be:
-cant take small game
-cant kill someone in one hit at close range
-not accurate to 500m
-crude and inaccurate

I respond:
-a 1-200 dollar 22 pistol on your belt can take small game and you can carry several hundred rounds on you for a few ounces of weight.
-AK doesnt need to kill someone with one hit at close range. You tap tap tap and you still have a ton more ammo left over than the shotgun that only fired one shot. A 30-40 round box mag or a 75/100rd drum will kill a lot more people than even a large capacity shotgun.
-most magnum bolt rifles arent accureate out to 500 because the user doesnt know how to adjust for wind or elevation consistently enough. Realistically most deer encounters will take place under 200 yards unless you live in a very flat desert. A shotgun or a 30-30 doesnt represent an advantage over the AK in this respect, only the full power rifle.
-if you picked a random AK, yes they would be crude and inaccurate. If you pick a slightly more expensive high-end model, you get accuracy, reliability and great trigger pull. The crudeness of the stock sights is easily addressed through optics or aftermarket peep sites.

The Real Hawkeye
February 24, 2006, 11:00 PM
Well, if the scenario were that you needed to be on your feet and travelling away from civilization, I still say you could do no better than a Winchester 94 carbine in .30-30. I have all kinds of military style rifles (AK-47, SKS, AR-15, FAL, M1 Garand, M1 Carbine), and the rifle that offers the best solution to this problem is still the 94. It's as light, handy and compact as the M1 Carbine, yet it packs a punch much closer to that of the FAL. You can also stick another in the mag at any point you get a chance without having to remove a magazine, or make the gun temporarily inoperable, unlike the military rifles. With any practice and familiarity at all, you can make life very unpleasant for any group of aggressors out to as far as three hundred yards and more with a .30-30, and you can take small game up to moose with it, using different loads. I think that would be my pick if I had to hit the trails and back country, and I have all kinds of long guns to choose from.

blackhawk2000
February 24, 2006, 11:05 PM
if youmust fight off the zombie hordes, then you must go semiauto. i would get either a Saiga, or a sks, last but not least an ak. the all take hi cap mags...


An SKS should never be converted to take hi cap mags. They are unreliable at best.

An SKS, or other stripper clip fed rifle, would be the next best thing to a mag fed gun.

The Real Hawkeye
February 24, 2006, 11:09 PM
An SKS should never be converted to take hi cap mags. They are unreliable at best.On what do you base this statement? Personal experience, or just because it sounds right? I have installed 20 round mags on a few SKS rifles for myself and my brother, and they are just as 100% reliable with them on as with the original mags.

roscoe
February 24, 2006, 11:55 PM
If the SKS was imported after 1989 that puts it up against the 922 restrictions. I am one of those that says leave the SKS mag alone - put a Tech-Sight peep sight on and call it good. My Norinco is very accurate with the peep and never jams. I love the 94 and think it would make a great choice, but the SKS is pretty good, too.

The Real Hawkeye
February 25, 2006, 01:05 AM
Rosco said: If the SKS was imported after 1989 that puts it up against the 922 restrictions.
However, the BATFE said the following
Dear Sir: In answer to your specific questions,
the following modifications of an SKS type rifle WOULD
_NOT_ BE A VIOLATION of Section 922 (r): ... 4. Replace the existing
10 round magazine with a fixed magazine of a larger
capacity.The mags I installed are installed in exactly the same way as the originals, i.e., they are not designed to be "detachable," i.e., they are "fixed" magazines (as the originals are fixed), and therefore NOT in violation of Section 922.

roscoe
February 25, 2006, 02:00 AM
Ah, fair enough. Still, call me a stick in the mud, but I say go with the well-tested 10-rounders. You still have to load it with stripper clips, so the time is the same, even if it is shorter, but more frequent.

Plus, I like the fact that the rifle doesn't have a big ol' magazine hanging down and throwing off the balance.

I prefer mule carts to cars, too.

Nematocyst
February 25, 2006, 02:07 AM
I prefer mule carts to cars, too. Given the price of petrol - which will continue to increase - and the fact that relatively few suicide bombers are trying to destroy barns & farm yards (unlike Saudi oil refineries), that could be a wise choice.

:uhoh:

Nem

blackhawk2000
February 25, 2006, 08:34 PM
On what do you base this statement? Personal experience, or just because it sounds right? I have installed 20 round mags on a few SKS rifles for myself and my brother, and they are just as 100% reliable with them on as with the original mags.



I'm going to guess you are using the Chicom mags made for their version of the SKS? If so those are definately not what I was talking about. They are OEM, and better work. Those cheap duckbill detachables are what I was refering to. Good luck getting one of those to work. I think I've heard of maybe half a dozen working thru various web postings.

I also will say I have never used anything but the stock 10 rder on my Yugo's. I know better than to gamble my money on an almost sure loser. Same reason I buy only USGI mags for my AR. Too many stories, about bad off brands. This is so not the "is wolf OK in my AR?" or "9mm vs. .45" debate. With topics like that you will find plenty of people on either side.

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