Kahr PM9 range report, not good


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gau5
April 14, 2003, 02:00 PM
This gun would shoot 14" groups@ 25 yds rested at best with 2 brands of factory ammo.
Sent back, a fellow named Bardhyl Durmillari serviced it and noted a ft sight repair and barrel replacement. Well, the replaced barrel was not new as shown by the burnish marks. And it still will not keep shots on paper.
The gun is 100% reliable, but my P9 shoots much better and this was the performance I was expecting for the $580 price tag out the door.
I am done with it.
My S&W 337 airlite shoots 3" at the same range.
Buyer beware.

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WonderNine
April 14, 2003, 03:43 PM
Hmm, that Rohrbaugh is looking better and better every day......:)

As a backup to a Browning Hi-Power of course :D

10-Ring
April 14, 2003, 03:54 PM
Yikes! :what: I wonder if that kind of accuracy is typical for the PM9....well, thanks for the heads up on that tho ;)

WonderNine
April 14, 2003, 04:02 PM
Yikes! I wonder if that kind of accuracy is typical for the PM9....well, thanks for the heads up on that tho

Ya, I appreciate the honest response. I know the double action really puts a damper on long range accuracy.

Quite a few PM9 owners seem to think that they can shoot IPDA with theirs. I realize more B.S. passes for fact here than even in a typical gunshop :cool:

M1911
April 14, 2003, 04:08 PM
You certainly could shoot IDPA with my MK9 -- it's a whole lot more accurate than what you're getting. It sounds to me like there's still a problem with your gun. My MK9 is almost as accurate as my K9.

WonderNine
April 14, 2003, 04:11 PM
gau5gunner, you got a serious lemon and then the factory sent you back another piece of crap if you're a semi-competent shooter (as it seems since you're P9 groups ok), then Kahr owes you a new 100% kickass gun. Grill those suckers every day!

You payed for a brand new reasonbly accurate PM9, and you should get what you payed for!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

rock jock
April 14, 2003, 04:21 PM
Very disappointing. Let Kahr know that you are posting your reviews online and that lots of folks keep track of this board. At my encouragement, my father bought a P9 last year that is an excellent autoloader. I would hate to discourage others from purchasing a PM9 (or any Kahr) because of poor QA/QC and bad customer relations.

WonderNine
April 14, 2003, 04:31 PM
At my encouragement, my father bought a P9 last year that is an excellent autoloader. I would hate to discourage others from purchasing a PM9 (or any Kahr) because of poor QA/QC and bad customer relations.

Absolutely! Please keep us informed gau5gunner!

gau5
April 14, 2003, 05:13 PM
thanks for replying all.
The gun is on consignment at the local shop.
I love my P9. It is reliable, very accurate and when I asked for a low profile slide release and spare recoil spring, Kahr mailed both at no charge.
I don't understand what happened with the PM9. I called and discussed the issues with Kahr and it came back like no one read my letter or heard me.
It seems that every new gun I have purchased the last few years has had to be returned for problems. I will waste no more time on the PM9, its not what I was expecting.
US gun manufacturers had better get their quality control act together. I don't need to buy anymore $600 guns that shoot like a Lorcin.
See attached target. 5 rds Gold Dots and 5 rds Ficcohi.
I did shoot IDPA with the P9, and did very well with it.

valnar
April 14, 2003, 05:34 PM
I am considering a PM9 (or P9 Covert, which I may lean towards after this thread).

Surely there are others on this board with a PM9? Are all of you getting the same results?

I would like to know if gau5gunner's experience is specific to his lemon or a general design issue.

Robert

gbelleh
April 14, 2003, 05:36 PM
Sorry to hear about your problems.
My PM9 is certainly not my most accurate gun, but it does much much better than what you describe.
Everyone makes a lemon from time to time, but it seems Kahr should've done a better job of fixing your gun. :(

denfoote
April 14, 2003, 06:06 PM
It must be that particular design. Bugs in the oatmeal!!! My MK9 will do 3" groups at that range all day!!! I went through the frame crack fiasco with the Taurus PT-145. That's why I refuse to be the Beta tester for any new firearm again!! :banghead:

Brad Johnson
April 14, 2003, 06:08 PM
I second the "you got a lemon" post above. Without exeption, every P-series Kahr I've shot has been a tack driver.

Call them back and tell them (politely) that you don't feel that the issue has been resolved. Insist that they send you a prepaid shipping container to send the gun back.

Brad

gau5
April 14, 2003, 06:25 PM
Robert

"I am considering a PM9 (or P9 Covert, which I may lean towards after this thread)."

I like the P9 and Covert series. The recoil rod is simpler and the barrels have more meat in them. I cut my P9 to Covert size.

"Surely there are others on this board with a PM9? Are all of you getting the same results?
I would like to know if gau5gunner's experience is specific to his lemon or a general design issue."

I would like to know this aslo.

Onslaught
April 14, 2003, 06:28 PM
The gun is on consignment at the local shop.


Forgive me... but :what:

You're the original owner who is knowingly selling an improperly functioning firearm to someone else... I feel that it is very dishonest to pass off your lemon on some other unsuspecting person... That's just wrong.

Deal with Kahr and make them FIX it. If you continue to have troubles, DEMAND that Kahr replace the faulty PM9 with an MK9, or some other model of your choosing. If they DO get it fixed, then sell it.

Believe me, I've had MANY dealings with Kahr regarding a crappy P9 & P40, and I'll never buy another Kahr "P" again. But I've never had any problems with my K's and MK's. Kahr replaced both the P9 and P40 after multiple trips back. And I'm not NEARLY the only one they've done that for. Others on this board (and TFL) have gotten a REFUND from Kahr after they had so many problems with the polymer line.

Reading all these problems makes me very content that I went with a 642 instead of the PM9. I knew I'd regret it giving Kahr a 3rd chance with Polymer.

AnklePocket
April 14, 2003, 06:42 PM
My PM9's pretty accurate (I've shot at 15 yards with it a few times so far). Groups are tight, but not competition worthy. I need to pull the trigger with my fingertip or the recoil causes some soreness over time although the gun is big enough to grab onto.
I've got some minor persistent feeding/break-in issues that are almost resolved, but other than that it's good to get a lemon resolved by the factory right up front right away. I highly recommend the PM9.

NJ3
April 14, 2003, 10:39 PM
I can shoot 3 3/4" groups with my PM9 at 15 yards, not rested. And I only consider myself an average shooter. Sure I've had problems with my PM9, but yours has to be a lemon.

mini14jac
April 15, 2003, 01:38 PM
As I've posted before, I am very pleased with my PM9.
It feeds everything.
From 10-15 ft., modified Weaver stance, I can easily get 2-3" groups.
I wouldn't consider a PM9 a 25yd gun, but many seem to think it should get better results at that range.
(I seriously doubt a Rorbaugh will do any better. These are snubbies we are talking about here, but the Rorbaugh is really small.)

Also, as I've stated in other posts, I do my worst shooting from sandbags, so I'm not fit to judge. Maybe it's my technique. My Mini14 gets much better groups if I stand and brace myself, than if I shoot from the bench.

gau5gunner,
I would suggest selling the gun.
If you shoot your P9 much better from the bench, then there must be a problem with the gun.
Anyway, it sounds like you are "soured" on the gun, and I am betting that even if it was fixed, you wouldn't want to keep it.
(Been there myself. My PT145 springs to mind, but there have been others.)

The next owner may find the gun perfectly acceptable as-is.
(I'm convinced that most people don't shoot their guns at all, and a few others shoot one box of ammo, then put the gun away for a year.)

Sorry you got stiffed. Been there too.

I like NAA guns, but I got the same treatment on a Guardian.
Also had the same problem with a KelTec P11. (And yes, I still really like KelTec guns, and customer service.)
Both times, it was like they never even read my letter!

concerned citizen
April 15, 2003, 10:53 PM
I have had very good luck with kahrs includding the p series.

mini14jac said it well when he refered to the pm as a snubby, thats basicly what this is folks, its a palm sized full power 9mm that weighs less than 20oz loadded with 7 rounds of 9mm..

This is a pocket gun, were not talking a fullsize range gun here :eek:

gau5gunner the accuracy your describing is unexceptable, have you had anyone else fire this weopon? have they had the same results??

Jim K
April 15, 2003, 11:29 PM
Seems that expectations and range come into play here. One guy shoots at 15 feet (5 yards) and is satisfied with 3" groups. Another shoots at 25 yards and complains about 14-15" groups. But 5 yds x 5 is 25 yards; 3" x 5 =15". So they are both getting the same grouping.

Actually any decent gun should do a lot better than 14" at 25 yards, even though it might not ever shot at that distance. The acceptance standard for the old GI .45, never noted for extreme accuracy, was 4" at 25 yards. I would return the gun and complain until they fix it. Then unload it and run.

As for a "belly gun" not needing to be accurate, my question is how do you get a bad guy to move closer if he is shooting at you from 25 yards, and how big does the belly have to be? What if the bad guy is on a diet.

Jim

mini14jac
April 16, 2003, 09:02 AM
I've never subscribed to the "belly gun" philosophy.
I think that a gun should be accurate, in your hands, or you shouldn't use it.
It's not just your safety, but innocent bystanders that you have consider.

I'll admit before God and everybody, that I'm not a "good" pistol shot.
I've been working over the years, and I have improved.
I actually shoot better from a combat stance, than I do from a bench.

Last night, I shot my PM9 from approx. 25yds, at a B27r (reduced)silhouette target.
I stood in the modified Weaver stance.
I didn't empty the mag as fast as I could, but as soon as I could get a good, steady sight picture, I fired.
Using Winchester "white box" ammo, my "group" was <10", all in COM.
I suspect that one of you gentlemen, or ladies, that has shot from a bench for years, could take my PM9 and turn in a 2-3" group.

I generally shoot from 10-12 feet for two reasons:
1. The majority of all self-defense shootings fall within that range.
2. You get instant, usually positive feed back from that distance, which in my opinion, makes you a better shooter. :cool:

As a kid growing up, me and my brother would normally shoot from farther back.
We were out in the woods, but the range was around 20 yards usually.
Neither of us ever did very well when we shot pistols, so as I grew up, I never had much faith in a pistol.

When I went throuh my CCW class, the (Police) instructor advised us to start out up close to the target. He suggested 3 ft. :eek:

He said, when you start getting really good groups at that range, back up another 3ft, and shoot there until you get really groups again, etc.
That way, your skills improve, and you don't get discouraged.

When my brother got his P32, he laughed at me when I started walking up the target. But, from 10ft, he couldn't hit a paper plate, while I was getting fist-sized groups.
He thought his gun was junk.
We walked closer, and he started hitting the target.
By the time we finished, he was getting the small groups from 12ft.

I don't know about most of you, but when I zero a scope, I zero at 25yds, before I try shooting at 100yds.
YMMV.

IRock
April 16, 2003, 07:11 PM
Uh-huh

gau5
April 18, 2003, 05:24 PM
Kahr is exchanging the PM9 for a new one. I am letting the dealer keep it and I now have a used Glock 26.
Kahr never responded to emails or faxes. The only way to communicate with them was by phone, and even then they had no record of my correspondence.
Here is how the Glock shoots, freestanding, 25 yds, same ammo as fired in the Kahr.

IRock
April 18, 2003, 10:04 PM
That has to make you happy. I had several problems with a P-series gun also. They ended up giving me a MK. It has been great. The p-series is built like a beefed up squirt gun in my opinion. The rails leave much to be desired. Hope your happy with the Glock, it sure appears to be much more accurate and I would bet will last a lifetime.

arinvolvo
April 18, 2003, 11:48 PM
Ahh, another happy ending...brings a tear to my eye...

craigz
April 19, 2003, 12:47 AM
Kahr is exchanging the PM9 for a new one. I am letting the dealer keep it and I now have a used Glock 26.

I hope you got some cash back too.

Kentucky Rifle
April 19, 2003, 01:07 PM
I don't mean to insult you Kahr true believers. Friends, I don't doubt you one bit when you post how nice your MK's or the other Kahrs are. However, to my way of thinking~This is an expensive pistol. It should be finished better and Kahr should communicate with their customers better. There was an M.D. here. I think his name was Robert Miska. (I believe I'm pretty close on the name.) I can't remember the Kahr model, but he was posting that he was having one heck of a time with Kahr. Nobody would communicate with him and nobody would *permanently repair his pistol. Kahrs are just too expensive for that kind of "Sierra" to be going on.
Are you "out there" doc? What finally happened?
*By the way, I too would never place a defective firearm on "consignment". A few people tried to get me to do that with my bum Autauga. I wouldn't do it. I have enough trouble sleeping without worrying that a defective pistol which I sold didn't operate correctly. I gave the "Sierra Oscar Bravo" to a close friend (who's a member here, by the way) after making it crystal clear that the beautiful little Autauga had a problem.
He STILL wanted it (said he liked to rescue pistols), so I gave it to him.
He's a holster maker who's been great to me, knows a lot about guns, wanted the Autauga...so I sent it to him.

KR

concerned citizen
April 19, 2003, 03:07 PM
:what:

I hear you Kentucky and could not agree more. It seems as though alot of folks from here and the old firingline have had a lot of problems with the p- series. Seems alot more so than other forums i.e glocktalk and 1911.

I've seen all the pic's and read all the stories, and I have to believe there are a small number of bad ones out there, as with any manufacture nothing is alway's perfect, outherwise there is no way kahr would have grown to be the company it is in such a relitivly short period.

All I can say is my experiences with the steel and polimer kahrs have been the same, very,very favorable.
I guess I've been lucky, although I can't really said I've ever had a real stinker in any of the 100's of firearms I've had over the years.

I had one of the first mk's a few years back and the factory was very helpful, I don't rely on e-mail for corispondence If I have a serious issue, I will talk to a armorer or in kahr's case I talked directly to frank james.

gau5
April 20, 2003, 08:22 PM
Since the dealer is getting a new PM9 from Kahr, I am getting full credit. I fully informed the dealer of the problems, and frankly, the groups may be acceptable to other buyers. Kahr is the one who made the gun, not me. "Dealing" with Kahr is not what I spent the high $$$ for.

billcameron
April 22, 2003, 02:26 AM
I hope the glock 26 you now have is not one of the E series under recall/upgrade for bad slide rails.

gau5
April 22, 2003, 08:32 AM
Hello billcameron
Thanks for the alert. I did indeed check the sn before buying, and it is ok.
sticking with the devil I know, I guess.
buyer beware.

Onslaught
April 29, 2003, 11:09 AM
Since the dealer is getting a new PM9 from Kahr, I am getting full credit. I fully informed the dealer of the problems, and frankly, the groups may be acceptable to other buyers. Kahr is the one who made the gun, not me. "Dealing" with Kahr is not what I spent the high $$$ for.
Since I spoke up the first time... I feel like I owe this one to you.

What you've done here is EXACTLY what I meant. Send it back, get it replaced, and THEN wash your hands of the entire product. Now if it malfunctions, you can honestly say with good conscience that you were not aware of any problems with that particular pistol.

You did good.

I'm glad that 26 is working out so well for you.

Mike Irwin
April 29, 2003, 01:54 PM
My K9 is one of the most accurate firearms I own. I've shot IDPA matched with it a number of times, and done very well.

I've also been able to repeatedly ring a 10" gong at 50 meters with it offhand.

I can't even imagine why your P9 would be to inaccurate. The ones I've seen have been fairly accurate.

Call Kahr, and ask to speak with the service manager, and tell him about your problems.

The general manager of the company, Frank something, was at one time also very accessible and very very helpful.

The reported issues of people not being able to get in touch with Kahr is VERY disturbing, and not the company that I deal with several years ago.

gau5
April 29, 2003, 05:23 PM
Mike,
I had the problems with the PM9. Called Kahr twice.
My P9 is a tackdriver. Absolutely top quality, accuracy and reliability.

Very dissappointed in the PM9.I was surprised when Kahr offered to replace it. I really want one and may revisit again later on.

Mike Irwin
April 29, 2003, 05:32 PM
Gau,

Yeah, my typo, my bad.

Greybeard
April 29, 2003, 10:39 PM
This news on PM9 is skightly disturbing as I've had no concern with one I got just over a month ago, altho it is just a little over the 200-round break-in recommended.

I've put just over 100 ronds thru it and loaned it to a couple of other shooters who did a box each. One of 'em, who owns at least 2 dozen handguns, was promptly after me to sell it to him after being impressed with size/weight and his groupings at 7 yards.

I must admit that I've not benched my PM9 for accuarcy at 25 yards. But, IIRC, I did run a couple of magazines thru it (standing) with 8" to 9" picnic plates at 50' and considered it at least equal to my typical ability with DAO snub always gun.

Come to think of it, I've not benched my 6-year old K-9 at 25 yards either, but have considered it to have excellent reliability and accuracy at typical defensive distances ...

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