Georgia Homeowners Association Clause


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Cacique500
February 19, 2006, 06:20 PM
We're going to be moving to Georgia shortly and there's a clause in the HOA covenants that has me concerned. The paragraph is:

(e) Firearms & Fireworks. The display or discharge of firearms or fireworks on any lot is prohibited; provided however that the display of lawful firearms is permitted by law enforcement officers. The term firearm includes BB guns, pellet guns, and any other firearms of all types, regardless of size.

I can understand the discharge part, but the display? Georgia is an open carry state...

Anyway, if any of you out there are legal eagles please let me know what I can do about this. I haven't moved in yet so I haven't signed the HOA - can I strike the words "display or" from the above before I sign it?

Thanks in advance!

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rms/pa
February 19, 2006, 06:25 PM
an HOA is a CONTRACT. get written clarification of the definition of DISPLAY.

this has been interpreted carring from house to car and vice versa.

rms/pa

TallPine
February 19, 2006, 07:15 PM
please let me know what I can do about this
Find another place to live ;)

Cacique500
February 19, 2006, 07:17 PM
Find another place to live

Not an option at this point in the game.

BigRobT
February 19, 2006, 07:26 PM
Like rms/pa said, get their legal version of "display". They can't ban gun ownership because that would be contrary to federal and state law. As long as you're not out totin a gun around or brandishing, you should be ok. I'd probably opt to CCW if you have that permit. I don't see how they can be contrary to State laws. I got several things in our covenants overturned because they were contrary to Federal law. Many of these HOAs "wing" it until they get caught and challenged. I wound up becoming President of my last HOA because I did the research and knocked thm down a peg or two.

Sindawe
February 19, 2006, 07:27 PM
Contact the Association's property manager or their law firm for clarification. Generally covenants and rules are binding once you've signed agreement. Which leads me to ask, why did you not see this BEFORE you signed on?

Lone_Gunman
February 19, 2006, 08:14 PM
FYI: Georgia is not an open carry state, unless you are licensed. However the State exempts you from this is you are carry on your own property.

I would be wary of the homeowner's association. If they decide they don't like you, they will take a very harsh interpretation of the bylaws, despite what they might tell you if you ask before purchasing.

beerslurpy
February 19, 2006, 08:22 PM
Stay away from HOAs if you can manage it. Using contract law to attack fundamental rights of property and liberty is one of the biggest threats we have right now.

taliv
February 19, 2006, 08:52 PM
if you want a deed to your house, you'll have to sign the agreement. sorry bout your luck, man. read before you buy.

geekWithA.45
February 19, 2006, 09:05 PM
+1 on avoiding HOAs.

If you can't avoid it for whatever reason, I advise STEALTH.

Attracting unwanted attention is the last thing you need.

pyrguy
February 19, 2006, 09:39 PM
It's a contract.

They and you can ask for the world. It is limited to what you both agree on. The sky's the limit...

That being said, The HOA is only as good as the lawyer that drew up the papers. Most of the time the developer and/or builders that started the subdivision had them written up (or used boilerplate) to protect THEM and not the future homeowners.

Enforcement is usually a CIVIL issue and how it is handled is written into the contract; court, binding arbitration, whatever.

Standing Wolf
February 20, 2006, 12:31 AM
Using contract law to attack fundamental rights of property and liberty is one of the biggest threats we have right now.

I doubt it's going to get any better.

Hardware
February 20, 2006, 12:32 AM
My development does have a deed restriction. However, due to a small snafu when the builder sold the last unit about 15 years back the maintenance corporation was never handed over to the owners. So, for fifteen years the deed restrictions were not enforced.

The interesting wrinkle is that since all deed restrictions were not enforced in each and every case then none of the deed restrictions can be enforced. To do so would be discrimination and the courts take a dim view of that.

YMMV, get legal advise in Georgia. And even if this applies, you had better be able to document the unenforced event thoroughly to be able to stand up in court.

beerslurpy
February 20, 2006, 12:41 AM
Well if the lease is non-negotiable take-it-or-leave it, then it is what is referred to as a contract of adhesion. These are subject to different rules than regular contracts.

If a contract of adhesion stipulates terms that :
a) were outside of the reasonable expectations of the person who did not write the contract
b) and the parties were contracting on an unequal basis,
then it will not be enforceable.

Regarding reasonable expectations:
There are so many reasons why a resident of Georgia would not think twice about keeping and bearing arms that I will not bother to enumerate them. Needless to say, for a non-felon to be denied this right would be very unusual.

Regarding unequal bargaining position:
You are already committed to buying the house and you cant buy it without signing the contract. Sounds pretty restraining and unequal to me.

joab
February 20, 2006, 12:43 AM
provided however that the display of lawful firearms is permitted by law enforcement officers.Meaning if it's legal if it's not prohibited by federal or state law or local ordinance. What's the big deal?
You just signed a paper that said you would not show off your stolen guns or unlicensed machine guns or shoot at the moon.

Optical Serenity
February 20, 2006, 01:40 AM
Concerning GA Law, you have to have a Georgia Firearm's Permit to carry outside your property. If you print out OCGA 16-11-127 and the surrounding code sections, you should find enough ammo to go to them to remove that clause.

That said, I abhor my HOA.

joab
February 20, 2006, 01:55 AM
you should find enough ammo to go to them to remove that clause.Why bother?

You would just alert them HOA officers that you have enough guns to make an issue of a poorly worded clause that is basically unenforceable due to the poor wording.

How long do you think it would take for word to get out that you have enough guns to make your house a worthy break in target?

gc70
February 20, 2006, 02:11 AM
provided however that the display of lawful firearms is permitted by law enforcement officers.Meaning if it's legal if it's not prohibited by federal or state law or local ordinance. What's the big deal?
You just signed a paper that said you would not show off your stolen guns or unlicensed machine guns or shoot at the moon.More likely, it is a poorly-worded way of trying to say that no guns are allowed except those worn by LEOs who come into the neighborhood.

joab
February 20, 2006, 02:37 AM
Yes but their poor wording makes anything that would be accepted by LEOs acceptable under their policy.

If it is permitted by LEO then it must not be illegal because a LEO would not permit an illegal act.
The only thing that LEO would not permit would be illegal acts

Therefore if it is legal and therefore permitted by LEO standards then it is legal and permissible by HOA standards

Nowhere does it state that you must have expressed written permission from LEO, Cleo, or BIL the Cop

gc70
February 20, 2006, 03:00 AM
Nowhere does it state that you must have expressed written permission from LEO, Cleo, or BIL the CopThanks, I needed a good laugh to end the day. :)

pete f
February 20, 2006, 04:42 AM
Actually HOA are horrible things designed to remove builders from liability after a certain date. They can and do remove from you rights and privilges under the Constitution and state and federal law. It is contract law. What ever you agree to give up by signing and buying is the new law. They can and do tell you what color you can paint your house. what color drapes you can have, what kind of car you can have. what schools your kids may go to. I have heard of them regulating how many kids you can have living in the house with you. How many other adults. some have the power of foreclosure, meaning they can take your house for failing the follow to follow the rules.

In many places they have become the home and breeding ground of the socail nazi. about the only defense is trying to get elected onto the board.

Even then, trying that may antagonise those who are on the board and make your time a living hell. I have to deal with them on a regular basis and in some i find good people, but it is rare that tthere is not a hidden agenda going on somewhere.

Robert Hairless
February 20, 2006, 06:16 AM
The clause as you've quoted it does not define "display." That word is not a synonym for "own" or "possess."

farscott
February 20, 2006, 07:15 AM
Just curious: Is the HOA under discussion in Peachtree City? If so, you should give serious thought to not closing.

Wiley
February 20, 2006, 08:01 AM
Check here for Georgia firearms laws, etc.: http://www.georgiapacking.org/

As was stated before Georgia is NOT an open carry state. Possion in and on ones' property is relitivly un-restricted.

There are many nice areas in Georgia and Atlanta that do not have HOA's. Most are older, established s/d's. Ya just have to look for 'em.

Optical Serenity
February 20, 2006, 08:32 AM
My HOA is a pretty restrictive one in many ways. The covenants don't say anything about firearms, but they do say a lot about house paint, lawn care, etc.

In fact, If I go more than two weeks without mowing my lawn during summer, I get a letter from them threatening to put a lien on my house if I do not take care of it.

Back two years ago, I got a letter for my house paint. I was given 30 days to paint my house because it now looked "dull and old." Mind you, my house is not yet 10 years old! :scrutiny:

And building a fence was a royal PITA! I had to submit the plans to the ARC (architectural review committee) and they had to approve it. The kicker was, they kept kicking it back because they needed to have the actual TYPE OF WOOD in the request! SO, I went to Home Depot and bought one picket, then made my submission. So...I put up my fence (all by myself too! I was proud...) and sure as hell, I get a letter from them! "YOU HAVE 30 DAYS TO REMOVE YOUR FENCE AND REBUILD DUE TO USING MATERIALS NOT APPROVED"

So I think ***!?!! and I called them. First off, "NO PHONE CALLS ALLOWED REGARDING LETTERS SENT" Argh! So I wrote a letter.. I get a letter back, (5 days goes by, I'm down to 25 days left before ninjas come with a lien) and they say "Your pickets are the approved wood type, but your 2x4s are not" Argh! So I had to get a written statement from Home Depot saying the 2x4s do not come in the same type. And they wrote me back saying "We will waive it this time." :rolleyes:

the real screwed up part is we pay about $550 / year to the HOA. There are about 320 parcels in the neighborhood, and yes, we have a nice tennis court and pool and playground..but $550 is wild. I went to the meeting, and found out the reason is cause they pay $35,000 / year to this outside company that manages the HOA! Now what the heck!? Well, they said "It is very strenuous work, they send on average 25 letters per week to homeowners" Hahaha! Ah well..

So long story short, I hate my HOA. They drive me up the wall, and no one ever told me when I was looking at homes in this neighborhood. Its so bad that when I told a fellow LEO in this city that I bought a house here, he said "Oh heck, you must love HOAs, that neighborhood is crazy!"

Michael Courtney
February 20, 2006, 08:42 AM
Buying a home with a homeowner's association is essentially living in a location with another level of government, and a level of government that is most likely to resrict your rights, because they have the "powers" of government (taxation, fines) without being restricted by the usual constitutional limitations (because the landowner entered a contract). The trouble is that the contract cannot usually be modified except by mutual agreement of a majority of landowners. So you've got a democracy without any constitutional protections and the "mob" mentality that goes along with it.

Regardless of the benefits, I can't recommend that a homeowners association be avoided strongly enough by a citizen who values liberty.

Michael Courtney

DunedinDragon
February 20, 2006, 09:10 AM
Personally, I'd tell them to either strike the display clause or the deal's off. My guess is they'd rather sell the house at this point than argue over this clause.

Cacique500
February 20, 2006, 09:20 AM
Thanks for the replies. The house is not actually purchased at this point and I've moved enough to know to get the Covenants & restrictions before I actually close. I'm going to call the management company this morning and get a clarification of the word 'display' - my agent says it's for keeping canons out of the front yards :rolleyes: - but I'll get something in writing from the management company. Worse case I'll just strike the words "display or" from that clause...that way I never 'agreed' to it.

The part that had me concerned was the special LEO sentence right after - that makes me think their version of display is letting any firearm be seen.

Farscott - the house is east of I-75 / Jonesboro area not in Peachtree City.

shooting time
February 20, 2006, 09:21 AM
I have heard plenty of horror stories from homeowners with HOA's stay away from them unless you want to live under their juristiction they regulate everything you do from what kind of car you can park in your driveway to what kind of flowers you can plant.

pcf
February 20, 2006, 09:29 AM
HOA leadership attracts the type of people that want to be in a position of power, and do not have the social skills or respect for others to handle it. That and a lot of free time. Unchecked authority and free time are a bad mix.

Talk to your neighbors and get a petition signed to limit powers of the HOA, if you don't like a HOA I doubt that 90% of your neighbors do either. The easiest way to limit a HOA's power is to add a bylaw that they must have supermajority approval of tenants to pursue legal actions against another tenant. Depending on your CCR's it may take an actual meeting and vote, or it might require a simple petition.

Most HOA's arent that bad, it's the occasional "stalinesque" ones that get attention.

BowStreetRunner
February 20, 2006, 10:06 AM
i doubt they are going to sue you if you carry rifles from the house to the car and back.....besides, you werent planning on hanging a shotgun in the front window....the only thing you might miss out on is shooting BB guns in the backyard or laying refinished rifle stocks out to dry outside......just be discreet or come at them like hell to change it...but it will be a PITA
BSR

bogie
February 20, 2006, 10:08 AM
"Uh, hello? I was reading this, and, well, I've got this gun cabinet with a bulletproof glass window on the front, and, well, am I gonna have to replace it with steel like the rest of the cabinet?"

Methinx it's best if you just call and ask "hey, am I gonna get in trouble for loading my car up to go hunting?"

They probably don't want people doing paramilitary drills in their front yards, or kiddies running around shooting all the neighbors' houses (like happened at my girlfriend's place... when it's cold out, a BB gun _will_ penetrate siding...

HankB
February 20, 2006, 11:00 AM
Being sure I bought my current home in an area without a homeowner's association was probably the smartest single thing I did in the last 10 years . . . :D

DunedinDragon
February 20, 2006, 11:10 AM
Being sure I bought my current home in an area without a homeowner's association was probably the smartest single thing I did in the last 10 years . . . :D

+100000000

Once my kids left home I thankfully left behind all those HOA's and nonsense deed restrictions. That was my number one criteria in finding a new place! As a matter of fact, I had put a bid in on a house that was accepted and ended up backing out of the deal because it had deed restrictions (the agent told me it didn't). BOY!!!! Did that ever tick the sellers and the agents off...but I told them beforehand I would NOT live anywhere that had deed restrictions.

geekWithA.45
February 20, 2006, 11:22 AM
Yup. The existence of an HOA is an automatic deal killer.

Been there, done that, NEVER AGAIN.


Actually, I did encounter ONE benign HOA, growing up. The HOA's power was limited to maintaining the community well, and blackballing any new development on the parcel. :)

stevelyn
February 20, 2006, 12:15 PM
Why in the hell would you pay thousands of $$$$$ for a home in a place that requires you to sign a contract that basically allows your neighbors to tell you how to live?:banghead: :rolleyes:

taliv
February 20, 2006, 12:17 PM
My development does have a deed restriction. However, due to a small snafu when the builder sold the last unit about 15 years back the maintenance corporation was never handed over to the owners. So, for fifteen years the deed restrictions were not enforced.

The interesting wrinkle is that since all deed restrictions were not enforced in each and every case then none of the deed restrictions can be enforced. To do so would be discrimination and the courts take a dim view of that.

YMMV, get legal advise in Georgia. And even if this applies, you had better be able to document the unenforced event thoroughly to be able to stand up in court.

hardware's right about this. i've seen this happen many times. currently, i consider my HOA/deed restrictions void because neighbors on either side of me have violated them (one put in a driveway in the back of their house to another street, and the other has parked an RV in their driveway for 2 years now) so i put in a small vegetable garden forward of the front plane of my house. all 3 are technically violations, but it appears no one cares.


however, to all of those who think that HOA are evil: HOA, covenants, deed restrictions, etc are inanimate objects, much like guns. "HOA don't kill people, people do"

seriously, this is an issue where personal anecdotes seem to piss people off. if someone wants to put up a fence, they HATE HOAs. If someone's neighbor parks a singlewide on their lot and puts a chickenwire fence around it, they LOVE HOAs.

an objective review would show that much like collective bargaining, HOA exist because years ago, people wanted to make sure that when they sign for the largest investment they'll make in their life, some wanker doesn't start raising pigs or chickens next door.

granted, it's gotten a little out of hand since then. e.g. no display of guns.

joab
February 20, 2006, 01:09 PM
however, to all of those who think that HOA are evil: HOA, covenants, deed restrictions, etc are inanimate objects, much like guns. "HOA don't kill people, people do"Not even close to correct.

HOA set policies that those that live under their rule must follow.
The paper that the rules are written on may be inanimate objects up to the point that the rules are written on them but that is about it.

medic_guns
February 20, 2006, 01:16 PM
Geogia law stipulates that one must have a permit to carry a gun. It does not distinguish between open and concealed carry.

Carry on

YellowLab
February 20, 2006, 01:20 PM
Line out that clause, initial it. If they sign it and give you a copy without looking at it, oh well, they lose.

My friend in FL lives in a development with a HOA.... Cannot part on the street, only allowed 2 cars, blah blah blah.

For $250K+ I get to do what I want. Unless they start to pay my morgage.

DunedinDragon
February 20, 2006, 03:10 PM
Line out that clause, initial it. If they sign it and give you a copy without looking at it, oh well, they lose.

My friend in FL lives in a development with a HOA.... Cannot part on the street, only allowed 2 cars, blah blah blah.

For $250K+ I get to do what I want. Unless they start to pay my morgage.

I LIKE THAT!!!!!!!
Fool them at their own game!!!!!:neener:

md2lgyk
February 20, 2006, 03:31 PM
I wound up becoming President of my last HOA because I did the research and knocked thm down a peg or two.

I did the same thing a couple of years ago. Turned out that because of lawsuits and changes in State law, virtually none of the restrictions in the covenants (written in 1989) were still enforceable. At least not by the Board of Directors. If my neighbor put up a storage shed or clothesline or committed some other violation, my only recourse to compel compliance was to sue him in civil court. In fact, the Board's attorney advised us we would be breaking the law if we sent such a neighbor a letter and used Association funds to buy the stamp.

Sindawe
February 20, 2006, 03:53 PM
pcf, I risk to differ..HOA leadership attracts the type of people that want to be in a position of power, and do not have the social skills or respect for others to handle it. That and a lot of free time. Unchecked authority and free time are a bad mix.I serve on the board of my HOA, and I do not want to be in a position of power, nor do I lack the social skills and respect for others to handle it. I'm on the board because I saw the direction it was taking a few years back, getting focused on control of others and all the horrors that others have experienced with their HOAs, and took steps to stop it from happening and limit the HOA's meddling in peoples lives. The control freaks have since left, and the current board is pretty like minded in keeping the HOA out of the owners and tenants hair. We focus on keeping up the property with regular painting, occasional grounds improvement, dealing with the occasional problem of people not cleaning up after their frelling dogs, and building up the HOAs reserve fund so that when big expenses come up like redoing the roofs, we will not have to have a special assessment to pay for it.

Are their problem HOAs? With out a doubt, but not all HOAs are bad news.

Optical Serenity: One solution to your issues may be to get on the board, along with like minded folks, and get the bothersome rules and the like revoked. $550/year is not that bad. I pay $160/month to mine, but that covers water for the entire property, external electrical for lights and extended basic cable for everybody. $35,000 a year to the managment compay is extreme IMHO

taliv
February 20, 2006, 03:55 PM
Not even close to correct.

HOA set policies that those that live under their rule must follow.
The paper that the rules are written on may be inanimate objects up to the point that the rules are written on them but that is about it.

no they don't. the developers and land owners set policies that the HOA takes over after the lots are sold. they can't just start making up new policies and enforcing them after you buy a lot and move in. they can only do what is in the contract you sign. if you don't like it, don't sign it.

BigRobT
February 20, 2006, 04:22 PM
HOA leadership attracts the type of people that want to be in a position of power, and do not have the social skills or respect for others to handle it. That and a lot of free time. Unchecked authority and free time are a bad mix.

Talk to your neighbors and get a petition signed to limit powers of the HOA, if you don't like a HOA I doubt that 90% of your neighbors do either. The easiest way to limit a HOA's power is to add a bylaw that they must have supermajority approval of tenants to pursue legal actions against another tenant. Depending on your CCR's it may take an actual meeting and vote, or it might require a simple petition.

Most HOA's arent that bad, it's the occasional "stalinesque" ones that get attention.

Most HOA's already have that. When I was elected President of mine, it was my constant fighting with the current HOA, the research I had to do and proving them wrong, again and again. I never sought the position, but I turned a semi-fascist organization into a more moderately & reasonably controlled one. I remain proud of that fact today. My biggest problem was the "Environmental Control Board". The head of that board tried to pull some stunts and I told her that she was heading us for a lawsuit. There are laws for reasonable & rightful use of private property. She seemed to back down a bit after I informed her of such. In other words, she can't dictate what plants, what color, as long as they were within the covenants. Personal preference is often the beginnings of discrimination!!

HOAs have their place in today's real estate market. Generally speaking, they keep the eyesores away. I can reference the town I just moved from. A brand new subdivision with nice potential was turned into a crap hole because there were NO covenants, no association, nothing but the city to enforce the laws. What happened in that junk vehicles were abandoned in peoples driveways, lawns weren't planted and homes were poorly maintained. Granted, the city SHOULD have taken a more active role in enforcing their ordinances, but the fact is, they didn't. All in all, certain homes in that specific area had reduced resale prices due to poor enforcement. I'm sure we can all agree that we have our homes for investments and when we go to sell them, we would like to get as much as possible for them.

HOAs CAN get out of control. I know from personal experience. An HOA can be an asset to the neighborhood, provided they are run with moderation and reason. It provides a way for people to pull together, with a louder voice than the individual, to get things changed for the positive. One of the items I am currently working on is getting out HOA to support me and quite a few other individuals to get the nearby railroad turned into a "quiet zone". (No train horns). I know that I, myself, when approaching the city council, am but one voice in the issue, whereas the HOA is 265 voices. There is strength in numbers.

pcf
February 20, 2006, 04:25 PM
no they don't. the developers and land owners set policies that the HOA takes over after the lots are sold. they can't just start making up new policies and enforcing them after you buy a lot and move in. they can only do what is in the contract you sign. if you don't like it, don't sign it.

The contract you sign is commonly referred to as the Covenants, Codes, and Regulations (CCR). I'm not aware of any state that does not allow a HOA to change policies by a simple majority vote, sometimes it takes less. For example my old HOA's CCR's allowed policy to be changed by having a super majority (2/3+1) on a petition, or simple majority at a regularly or specially convened meeting.

We changed the HOA's policy so that a super majority approval of homeowners at a meeting was required before taking anyone to court. We won with a majority at a specially convened meeting, and the people that would have opposed us and possibly won, shouldn't have hung up on us, when we called them at 2:00 AM. All within the letter of the law.

You are dead wrong if you think that a HOA's policy can't change on you after you move in.

SIndawe, my apologies, I should have stated that "in my experience the leadership of troubled HOA's all have one thing in common."

bg
February 20, 2006, 04:55 PM
FYI: Georgia is not an open carry state, unless you are licensed. However the State exempts you from this is you are carry on your own property.

I would be wary of the homeowner's association. If they decide they don't like you, they will take a very harsh interpretation of the bylaws, despite what they might tell you if you ask before purchasing.
Talk about Catch 22. The state allows exemptions on this IF
you carry on your own property, but the HOA forbids display
of any sort..OK what happens if you have to protect yourself ?

Father Knows Best
February 20, 2006, 05:42 PM
Are their problem HOAs? With out a doubt, but not all HOAs are bad news.

So why take that chance? Even if the HOA doesn't have the actual legal authority to do anything to you, that doesn't stop them from making your life miserable and perhaps forcing you to spend thousands in lawyer fees to remove improper liens, defend lawsuits, etc. At the same time, they cost you real $ in annual fees. No thanks.

joab
February 20, 2006, 06:36 PM
no they don't. the developers and land owners set policies that the HOA takes over after the lots are sold. they can't just start making up new policies and enforcing them after you buy a lot and move in. they can only do what is in the contract you sign. if you don't like it, don't sign it.While I completely agree with your last sentance, nothing you say in the above comment comes even close to making HOAs covenants, deed restrictions, etc inanimate objects. Or even addresses that theory as a matter of fact

Hawkmoon
February 20, 2006, 08:47 PM
You would just alert them HOA officers that you have enough guns to make an issue of a poorly worded clause that is basically unenforceable due to the poor wording.
Why do you think it is "basically unenforceable due to the poor wording"?

I don't think it's poorly worded at all. It's very clear to me -- they don't want to see any guns in the neighborhood. He's not going to get very far claiming it's poorly worded. IMHO the best he can hope for is an escape from the purchase contract if they didn't show him the HOA rules and regs until after the purchase agreement was signed.

Hawkmoon
February 20, 2006, 08:49 PM
my agent says it's for keeping canons out of the front yards
"Your" agent doesn't want to lose the sale. Cops don't normally roll into residential neighborhoods with cannons.

joab
February 20, 2006, 10:10 PM
Hawkmoon I'll refer you back to my previous posts provided however that the display of lawful firearms is permitted by law enforcement officers.
Meaning if it's legal if it's not prohibited by federal or state law or local ordinance. What's the big deal?
You just signed a paper that said you would not show off your stolen guns or unlicensed machine guns or shoot at the moon.I emboldened the quote taken from the original post

If it is permitted by LEO then it must not be illegal because a LEO would not permit an illegal act.
The only thing that LEO would not permit would be illegal acts

Therefore if it is legal and therefore permitted by LEO standards then it is legal and permissible by HOA standards

Nowhere does it state that you must have expressed written permission from LEO, Cleo, or BIL the Cop

joab
February 20, 2006, 10:14 PM
Cops don't normally roll into residential neighborhoods with cannons.What does that have to do with the clause. It didn't say that you could only display guns that cops are allowed to roll with, It says that you cannot display guns that are not allowed by cops.

Firethorn
February 20, 2006, 10:50 PM
What does that have to do with the clause. It didn't say that you could only display guns that cops are allowed to roll with, It says that you cannot display guns that are not allowed by cops.

We're arguing over what the clause means, thus it's poorly worded.

The intent of the clause was probably 'Unless you're a police officer, you're not allowed to display a gun'. Display in this case would mean 'to be visible'.

Now, does this include loading into a vehicle for a trip to the range/go hunting?

And the cannon thing came up by the real estate agent who wants a sale, and another member pointed out that crime tends to be low in neighborhoods where people put cannons out as displays in their front yard.

And yeah, as far as HOAs go, they're usefull for duplexes, condos, and such where you have mutual maintenance, but as far as power goes for things like number of cars, I'd tend to go around and see if I could get enough other homeowners informed and involved to yank some of it's teeth.

joab
February 21, 2006, 12:39 AM
I understand the transitions in the thread so far.
I just don't understand what the fact that cops don't roll with canons has to do with the argument.

The intent of the clause was probably 'Unless you're a police officer, you're not allowed to display a gun'. Display in this case would mean 'to be visible'.But that's not what they said.

They stated "unless permitted by law enforcement officers.

Individual officers do not make laws or set policy therefore all that they have the power to permit has already been codified, therefore the clause could and should be translated to "unless it is allowable by law" or "unless it is legal under federal state and local law or ordinance"

p35
February 21, 2006, 01:25 AM
I've been VP of my HOA for years (the president is retired and has more time for it). Our focus is maintaining the community water system ($20/month flat rate) and park. None of us on the board are into power trips; we just do it as a way of giving something back. Frankly, it's an unpaid PITA most of the time. Of course, it's an old rural subdivision, and no one has the time or inclination to hassle neighbors about how they paint their house. The only thing we really get aggressive about is not paying the water bill. With new, stricter drinking water regulations every year, we need the $ to keep the water system up to code. Guess what a house with no legal water supply is worth?

I agree that some can be ridiculous nitpickers, and I wouldn't buy a house in that type of area. OTOH, I and the other guys on my board are carrying the 90% of homeowners who don't give a rip while enjoying unlimited cheap water and a beautiful family oriented park. Don't lump us in with the Adam Henrys.

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