Actual gunfights?

[Mooseman]

Although I carry concealed on a regular basis, I have been blessed in that I have never shot at or been shot at by anyone. Anyone here have some actual combat experience? I would love some pearls of wisdom so that I can better avoid a fight or in a worst case scenario be the one still breathing at the end of one.

[1911Tuner]

Howdy Moose, and welcome aboard.

You'll find that those who have don't talk about it much, and them that talk probably haven't...at least the ones who go into detail.

Cheers!

[MCgunner]

There are some interesting tales to hear at the IDPA club I used to attend over in Eagle Lake, Texas. If I had more time, I'd shoot over there, just never get over there anymore.

Had one guy tell me he'd shot three guys. He owns a chain of convenience stores in Houston, says he's had to shoot three times and they didn't survive. He was a good shooter, I think shooting sharpshooter in IDPA. Don't know if he was truthful or not, but had no reason to question. He kinda bragged how he hated thieves, sort of weirded me out a little. Kinda gave me the creeps, but I just nodded and took it all in. :D

The neatest was this older Vietnamese fellow. His big buddy, an American and HPD (Houston) officer was in special forces. This guy had saved his hide. Now, the Vietnamese fellow wasn't shooting, but his friend assured me he had skill. He was the South Vietnamese national bullseye champion at one time. Anyhow, after the war, he got put in a political prison over there. His buddy here pulled all sorts of strings, got congressmen and senators in on trying to get this guy to the US and finally, in about 99, he was released and came to live for a while with his friend's family here (the LEO) until he could get a job and get on his feet. After that match, I felt like I'd heard about the neatest story I've ever heard in person. Those guys seemed like they were tight as brothers, probably tighter considering all the events they'd probably been through that I didn't get told about. Neither elaborated on the war or events that went down.

[TimboKhan]

I have had actual, real combat experience, and by and large, it sucks. Its scary as hell, and with any luck, I won't have to trade shots with anyone ever again. That said, I will tell you that my experiences have resulted in me being extremely stubborn about my opinions as far as combat handgunnery goes. The first is, Keep it as simple as possible, in all regards. Second, train. Chances are very slim in a combat situation that you will have the presence of mind, or the time, to be mindful of anything but pulling the trigger. Training means that you will have the edge, because you will instinctively refer to how you have trained. Third, SHOOT! The more you shoot, even if it is just fun plinking as opposed to dedicated combat training, the better off you are. Put it this way: I would rather go to battle with the guy that has shot 1000 rounds of .22 ammo than I would the guy who has shot 100 rounds of .45. Fourth, pick a caliber that you can shoot. I, for instance, have come back to 9mm as a defensive round because I can shoot it exceedingly well. Sure, its not up to par with my .45 or my .357 as far as power goes, but the simple fact is, I shoot it better. I love my .45, and I am adequate with it, but I have pushed my ego aside in favor of 9mm because I simply shoot that caliber better. Fifth, don't listen to any so-called expert that advocates anything other than a basic, workmanlike approach to pistolcraft. Complicated = Dead. Finally (at least as far as this post goes :) ) I think it is important to establish the mindset that you will kill to defend yourself and your family. I am not a violent guy, and I don't want to hurt anyone, but I will tell you straight out that if I point a firearm at you, there will not be a warning shot. This isn't me trying to sound tough or to sound threatening; its simply that if you have to pull a gun in defense, there can be no hesitation or unwillingness to pull the trigger. If your not willing to do so, then you shouldn't be using a gun in self-defense. That said, the instances where you will actually have to shoot to kill are very rare, and a gun should not be your first line of self defense. I happen to be a big guy, and I can intimidate people easily when I want to. I also know to walk away from bad situations (and, in fact, have been in maybe three fistfights in my whole life), and I don't put myself in precarious situations. Yes, I will take a human life to defend myself, but it is my last line of defense, not my first.

[C-grunt]

My advice is
A- Have a good gun that you know [B][U]WELL
B- Be accurate with the weapon
C- Be fast with the weapon
D- Be a better shot than the other guy

I have seen very little pistol fighting in my experience, but it has shown me that a center of mass shot is better than going for the head. The head has a lot of thick bones that will deflect a pistol round fairly often. I have also seen people with massive head/brain injuries who were still conscious and active. The human body is tougher than many people give it credit for.

[SRMohawk]

Everyone (especially TimboKhan),
I didn't have have anything to add in terms of a response to the original inquiry here. I just wanted to say 'Thank You' to those of you who did. I live, work, and even recreate well inside the bounds of a very large and increasingly dangerous city. And though I don't have a CCL, more and more I feel like it would be a VERY good idea to get one and start carrying. Not just because of what I see on the local news most nights before work, either. In the last year, I have on two occasions found myself running for my life when I walked out of work at 0300 hrs and found groups of dark strangers moving quickly toward me while making a several block trek to my car along dark, downtown city streets (didn't seem to matter that I'm a lean 5' 11", 190 lbs, either). At any rate, I just feel like eventually my luck is gonna run out. So it's either move (and that won't happen for another decade or two since I have a little boy with an ex-wife who also lives and works in the same immediate vicinity) or take measures to insure my safety/survival.

I'm just so nervous about the prospect of carrying a handgun in my bag or on my person. And I've been shooting weekly for 20 years now . . . 7500-10000 rounds per year of .45 ACP and 10mm Auto. I've just never shot IPSC or IDPA. Same goes with precision rifle, too. I manufacture all my own ammunition and go through 1 or 2 barrels every year. But I've never shot NRA, Palma, or F-Class competitively. The point is, I don't know if my brain would even function if faced with a real-life, kill-or-be-killed scenario.

Peace,
D.H.

[JMusic]

SR Mohawk I wouldn't worry about my brain functioning, just my feet.:)
Welcome to THR
Jim

[usp9]

The two more major violent events in my life involved a common factor. I say this as clearly as I can, with no aggrandizement, the common factor was FEAR. I didn't know it was possible to be that scared.

The first event involved a drunk, who decided to go "hunting" and took shots a few people. It's no fun to be shot at from 30 yards by a drunk with a high power rifle.

The second involed an armed robbery, during which I spent about 10 minutes with a gun literally in my ear.

On both occations I contemplated taking action, but because other people were involved, didn't. By good fortune nobody was harmed in either event, and the lesson learned echos Timbokahn's "Be Prepared" sentiment. Fear will have a debiltating effect, and only training, practice, and a resolute state of mind will help you prevail.

[Devonai]

Many new members ask this question, so I suggest using the search function for better results.

Here are a couple of good threads:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=161707

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=60164

[cookekdjr]

Never been in a gunfight. Have shown up minutes after dozens of gunfight deaths and investigated. Prosecuted hundreds of gunfight cases (murders), and thousands of gun assaults.
Knowledge I have gleaned:

1. Stay away from bad parts of town. (Duh).
2. Don't buy or sell drugs. (Duh).
3. Don't flash money around.
4. Always be aware of your surroundings, especially at stop signs, traffic lights, etc.
5. If someone flags you down, or asks for your attention:
a) assume it is a con or ruse to rob you;
b) assume they have an accomplice behind you, or are attempting to distract you to get them there
c) be alert and prepare for/recognize the dangers that may be forthcoming
6. Carry the largest caliber you can shoot well
7. Carry a simple-to-use, reliable weapon
8. Practice with your weapon that meets criteria 6 and 7
9. Remind yourself of numbers 1-5 daily

-David

[VacuumJockey]

From the Belmont Club (http://www.fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com/):

Sunday, February 19, 2006
Asymmetrical warfare, 1906

They had never been Filipinos: their identity pre-existed King Philip of Spain; their national consciousness had always been as Muslims. After the first Mohammedan missionary arrived in Sulu in 1380 parts of the island of Mindanao had constituted themselves into the Sultanate of Sulu. A succession of Europeans: the Portuguese, French, British, and Spaniards had attempted to incorporate it into their respective colonial schemes but the Muslim Malays, led by Imams who controlled ruthless kris killers, resisted implacably. When beaten on the battlefield they simply surrendered out of convenience, signed a peace treaty and disregarded it once the enemy force had left.

When the US acquired Mindanao after the beating Spain in the Spanish-American war, Americans came face to face with what came to be known as asymmetrical warfare. Here were attacks on civilians, beheadings, raids on schools. All the stuff of modern headlines. And in the pre-explosive era the ultimate weapon of Imams was the suicide bomber of the day: the juramentado. The difficulty of the campaign against the Moros is suggested by number of Medals of Honor awarded to the regular US Army (not the Constabulary): five MOHs were awarded in 1911 alone for actions on or near the island of Basilan. But reading Victor Hurley's the Jungle Patrol is the best way to get a sense of that long-ago campaign. It largely describes the experience of the Philippine Constabulary, a unit of Filipino enlisted men with American embeds, a creature that would be instantly familiar to men in Iraq. Reading the Jungle Patrol is an exercise in deja vu. If you can imagine a Chinese trader on a boat in place of an expatriate Sri Lankan truck driver in Iraq this scene of murder will be instantly familiar.

The night of November 1, 1907, a Chinese trader named Tao Tila had the dubious distinction of being the first recorded victim of Jikiri. The Chinese was sailing a vinta along the coast of the island of Jolo, engaged in trade with the Moros. Off the coast of Lumapid, in the blackness of night, a swift sailing boat sped out of the dark, and a voice aboard the Malay privateer called in the Sulu tongue, "Kill them." A moment later the pirate ship was alongside, and the crew of the Chinese boat were stricken with krises before they could rise from their benches.

Or if you've been in an expatriate worker's compound relaxing after a hard week of work you can imagine the scene of what would today be called a terrorist attack.

They entered the camp and approached Case, offering to purchase a vinta (sailboat). Case replied that they had no boats to sell, and the Moros withdrew. At five o'clock the raid began. The seven Moros deployed about the camp. On signal, one of the bandits entered the store where Mrs. Case was arranging the stock and asked for cigarettes. As the woman turned to the shelves she heard Verment scream outside and, looking through the window, saw the logger go down before the blades of two Moros. ... As Verment lay dying outside the store, Case was set upon by two other Moros, who severed his head with a stroke. The wife of the dead Verment received a ghastly kris wound that laid open her back from shoulder to hip.

The suicide bomber had his direct precusor in the Juramentado. Here's a turn of the century convoy going down an apparently secure street.

Lieutenant Rodney, an officer of the 2nd Cavalry, had gone for a Sunday afternoon walk with his small daughter. Walking unarmed on the Jolo-Asturias road, Rodney had been preceding a seaman named Steel and two other sailors from the Quiros by a few steps. Before the sailors could draw their weapons, a Moro burst suddenly into view, hacking with a barong and killing Rodney instantly. A guard leaped from a sentry post as the sailors began to fire their revolvers, and blew the Moro's brains out with a shotgun.

The Mohammedans of the Philippines had originated a unique and deadly method of individual fighting that was a degenerate offshoot of the principle of the jihad, or Holy War, that is specified by the Koran ... According to the Moro belief, it was within the power of one man, and his kris, to break in a stride from the miserable nipa shacks of the Sulu shores to the scented gardens of Paradise where the houris waited. For the Koran offers great reward for the slain in battle.

One example of the tremendous power of fanatical motivation is provided by this account. It calls to mind the numerous descriptions of VBIEDs shrugging off bullets as it barrels towards its target.

Lieutenant Ellsey of the Constabulary was sent into the hills to serve warrant on a Moro named Usap for stealing carabao. He had anticipated no particular trouble, and carried with him a small patrol of six men. He found his man standing in the door of the usual Moro shack, with a ladder leading up to the door. The Moro glowered down at the small patrol as Ellsey served his warrant. His expression did not change as he turned to get his turban for the trip. But Ellsey felt that all was not well. He circled the shack and saw Usap reach under a mat and draw forth a barong. The Constabulary Lieutenant raised his rifle and drilled the Moro through his head. As Usap dropped, two other Moros leaped from the room. The waiting patrol dropped them in mid-air. They were dead when they hit the ground. The patrol then mounted the ladder and captured three additional Moros who had not yet worked themselves into the amuck stage.

While they were tying these prisoners beneath the house, a Moro in a near-by field was plowing rice with a carabao. They heard him shout as he leaped to attack with a barong. "Timbuck aco," he was shouting; "shoot me." He came with long bounding strides, headed straight for the waiting patrol. Four of the soldiers opened fire on the advancing Moro in support of Lieutenant Ellsey. A stream of hot lead poured into his body, but the Moro never faltered. He came nearer, slower now, but still on his feet. The barong was upraised as he headed for Lieutenant Ellsey. Ellsey fired his last shot, and the Moro still came. Ten feet from the officer a Krag bullet thudded into the amuck's spine. His legs gave away. As he fell, he hurled his barong before he died. The patrol stripped the dead man and turned him over. Twelve bullet holes were in his body. Ellsey had escaped decapitation by only ten feet.

Juramentados could operate in tactical teams. This account of US Cavalry unit at Camp Severs in Jolo describes what it was like to be under a sustained juramentado attack.

The camp itself was a large rectangle, completely enclosed with wire. The line of company tents were about ten feet inside the wire on each side. Inside the line of tents were the saddle racks and the picket lines of horses. The fence was seven feet high, with ten wires, making the strands about eight inches apart. Every twenty feet along the top of the fence, was a Dietz lantern with reflector to light up the high grass outside for several yards. The firing trench just inside was. banked up and ready for business. In a few seconds after an alarm by the sentries, the men could be out of their tents and ready to meet an attack. We felt secure. ...

It was in the night that I came out of a deep sleep feeling that a shot had awakened me. Then there were two shots and a cry: 'MOROS . . . MOROS.' Then a whole barrage of shots. I reached for my riot gun. It was gone! So was Lieutenant Crites. Snatching my .45 from beneath my pillow, I tore aside the mosquito-net canopy and ran out of the tent. Dark figures were coming up to the fence on the run. The firing was general. ...

A big cavalryman charged out of a tent just ahead of me with a riot gun. He poked the gun within a foot of the running figure ahead of me and blasted. The man swerved and stumbled on. 'My God,' I wanted to shout, 'stop shooting at our own men.' Then I brought up suddenly. Powder smoke filled my nostrils and I was looking down the barrel of that same riot gun. The big soldier was about to let go again. Some kind of a squealing voice came out of me: 'Hey . . . it's me . . . it's me'... I would never have recognized it as my voice. ...Then all firing ceased as the men went at it in a furious bayonet to barong duel that was a fight to the finish. At the nearest cavalry tent a white soldier rolled out under the wall, rifle in hand. Before he could stand up a Moro was upon him. Another soldier crawled out and the Moro leaped to him. My Corporal Batiokan ran up to crush the Moro's skull with a rifle butt. Blood was squirting from two great gashes in the cavalrymen's back. Soldiers came running to carry away the wounded man. Their uniforms were red with blood. ... One of the men was past medical aid. He had been chopped to ribbons, with arms and legs severed and lying apart from his body. ...

Seven of the eight juramentados who had made the attack had succeeded in getting through the wire in the face of the fire. One lay dead outside the wire and seven were stretched out in the enclosure when morning came and we made inspection. The hospital was lined with terribly wounded men, slashed with barongs, and we were forced to kill many of the slashed horses who had been in the path of the charging Moros. The juramentados who had plunged through the wire in a desperate dive had left skin and clothes on the wire. They were horribly torn from head to foot by the long barbs. They were riddled with bullets, and many had heads bashed in and bayonet stabs. They lay there, with glittering eyeballs and bared black teeth. Their heads were shaven and their eyebrows were a thin line of hair.

Then the US Army did something the Spaniards had not been able to accomplish in three hundred years. It seized tactical control over the entire area of Mindanao, including the hinterlands, using combined American-Filipino teams whose exploits were almost unbelievable. Here's one example:

[Captain Elarth] was ... investigating a report of Moro organization, and he came into contact with a thousand tribesmen, armed and ready for action. ... He called for a parley with the headmen; and the Constabulary--ten men and the Captain--sat down on the summit of a hill, surrounded by the hillmen. Three Moros on the edge of the crowd began to mutter and the headmen rose from the ground and began to draw away. Then the trio of frenzied fanatics drew their weapons and rushed the Constabulary Captain. The Constabulary took refuge in a rally formation, with fixed bayonets. The leading Moro was almost upon them before Elarth could draw his pistol. "Pot-i-na" (Die now): the voice of the Moro was a scream as he hurled himself upon the Captain. At the same instant the hillmen released a shower of spears.

Elarth dropped the first two Moros with skull shots from his pistol, but there was no time to stop the third, who was armed with a spear. There was a movement behind the doomed Captain, and Sergeant Alvarez leaped forward to take the spear in his chest. Too late to save his Sergeant, Elarth blew the Moro's head away with a .45 calibre bullet. Had the long-haired hillmen supported the three Moro leaders as they charged, the entire detachment would have been wiped out with the loss of eleven rifles. But the hillmen contented themselves with showers of spears before they melted into the jungle. Left on the field were eight dead Constabulary bodies bristling with spears. Elarth, with his two surviving men, jerked the bolts from the dead men's rifles and plunged into the deep bush. All day and all night they marched, to return safely to the Constabulary post. Elarth had ably upheld that old fighting tradition of the Corps: "To be outnumbered always; to be outfought, never."

The sort of men capable of defeating the Moros were pretty rough. Take Oscar Preuss.

At 4:30 in the afternoon he began on a quart of Gordon's Gin--at midnight it was finished and Preuss was deadly sober. He was ... almost too rough for Mindanao. His career had included a term as a Sergeant in the German Lancers during the Boxer Rebellion in China. He had then crossed to East Africa as a Lieutenant of Infantry. Various South and Central American revolutions saw him in action, and he had ridden for Uncle Sam as a cavalryman.

He made few military mistakes. One of them had been the time he disarmed a Moro and neglected to search the natives' hair for a dagger. He bashed out the Mohammedan's brains when the knife flashed into view, but not before the Moro had slashed the cheek of Preuss and pierced the roof of his mouth.

They say he was called to Manila to justify his ruthless slaughter in Mindanao. A Colonel of the Board of Inquiry questioned him, "Captain Preuss, it is said that you, personally, have killed 250 Moros. What is your statement, sir, to that report?" Preuss drew himself up, and officers say his tone was placid and yet discontented: "The report is in error, Colonel; my count places the total at 265." In 1911 Preuss won a Medal of Valor at Mailog Cotta in Lanao. He was then a First Lieutenant of Constabulary, with four years' service. It was his sixth or seventh war, though Preuss was then but thirty-three.

Another officer of almost demented courage was Leonard Furlong, who the Moros feared as an almost unearthly being. Furlong actually led a unit of Christian/Moro constabulary men that would go anywhere, any time to take on anybody. One example of his exploits is given below.

Furlong arrived at Bugasan at daylight on the morning of July 9. He had but six rifles in his party. He called to the inhabitants of the house to surrender, and found, not a few Moros, but a gang of 100 armed bandits who surrounded his small force. In one of the most dramatic hand-to-hand combats of the period, Furlong personally killed six of the Moros, and extricated his men without injury to his force. He personally broke a passage through a wall of krismen as point of that compact group of soldiers who battled hand to hand with the odds ten to one against them. ... One of the most striking examples of Furlong's policing activities was his extermination of Kali Pandopatan, the Sultan of Buldung. The Kali had been playing double with the American government, and Furlong, with a dozen Constabulary, had gone to the cotta of the Kali for a conference. Once inside the cotta, he was set upon by more than 400 Moros, armed with barongs. Furlong backed his party into an angle of the walls and was in possession of the field after a terrible hour of slaughter. ...

Perhaps one of Furlong's most characteristic gestures was throwing his hat into the Moro forts he was preparing to assault and wagering that he could get to it before any of his men. It is said Furlong never lost a single one of those bets. In 1911 he was sent to Manila because his superiors feared that he was losing his mind. Furlong shot himself in his quarters.

Commentary

Twenty years after the campaigns Victor Hurley sat among a group of Moros while gathering material for his book and tells this anecdote.

Twenty years after Furlong had fired his last shot, this writer stood with wrinkled and ancient Moros on the sites of some of the Cotabato battles of this Captain of Constabulary. We talked, the Moros and I, of those old days of murder and piracy and ambush, when the kris had been the law and the measure of a man. The Moros are always ready to talk of battle.

These scarred old reprobates with blackened teeth and betel-stained lips, were no exception. Our conversation that day was filled with grand names: Allan Fletcher of the Scouts, called "Papa" by Moro and Filipino and American--a grand campaigner; Lieutenant Whitney of the prodigious strength gained a shuffle of bare feet and the twitch of a turban; then we talked of a Lieutenant named Cochrun--"a brave man, si," was his accolade; a youngster's name came into the conversation--Jesse Tiffany. The Moros fought him on their cotta walls. He, too, was valiant--a nod of the turbans confirmed him with the greatest praise a Moro can bestow on a man.

But when I mentioned Furlong, a glisten came into the eyes of ancient Moros who talk of redder and grander days. They sent up the most impressive salute to Valhalla that I can ever hope to witness. I see them now as I write--a circle of genial old ruffians, almost ready themselves to mount a white horse to Paradise. Their turbans are off now and their chins at rest on their scarred and brawny chests. After twenty years, they bend a neck to the memory of Leonard Furlong--"most desperate fighting man of all."

Sixty years later, in the 1990s, an incident occurred which reminded me vividly of Hurley's story. I was sitting with a well known Muslim warlord on the island of Basilan whose improbable first name was "Pershing". I asked the warlord why his father should name him after General Blackjack Pershing, of all people, when Pershing was known to have crushed the Moros in the campaigns that Hurley described. The warlord turned to me and said, "my father wanted to name me after the greatest warrior he could think of. And that was Pershing." Some things will never change; and one of those is that even in the sight of Allah there is no respect for the craven.

Note

From a purely historical point of view, I think some of Hurley's translations of native speech leave something to be desired. For example, I think 'Pot-I-Na' means rather something else than what he thinks, though doubtless equally pejorative. My guess is that it may be some form of "patyun" which in this context means "die". It also sounds like "you S.O.B.", in dialect, yelled from a distance. Maybe some scholar will clear it up.

posted by wretchard at 3:16 AM

And on a more immediately helpful note, check out Animal's No Nonsense Self Defense (http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/) He will elaborate, in great detail, on many of the points the above posters have made.

[recondoc]

I was involved in several firefights in Iraq back in 2003.
What I learned:
1- The old addage "He who hesitates is lost" still stands true.
2- Adrenaline can make you forget that the bad guys are shooting back with
bullets that can kill you. It's an incredible high but nobody should let
themselves get addicted to it.
3-Maintain your weapons before doing anything else in a day.
(This is probably more applicable to the combat environment.)
4-When it comes down to you or them, pulling the trigger is a lot easier
than any TV show, movie or novel ever descibes it. There is not great
moral decision, only survival.
5-I'd rather drink a beer with someone than shoot them.
6-I've had enough killing for one lifetime but will do it again if the situation
ever requires it.
7- WHEN IN DOUBT....REFER TO #1 AND EMPTY THE MAGAZINE.

I'm no expert but that's what I've learned.

Doc

[MarshallDodge]

Thank God I have never shot anyone with a real gun. The closest I have come to it is in paintball competition. It is a huge adrenaline rush and teaches you how to stay covered while keeping aware of your surroundings. Give it a try, it will teach you a few things.:cool:

[Dienekes]

Now I have to find "Jungle Patrol". Thank God for Amazon...BTW the current book "The Savage Wars Of Peace" by Max Boot covers some of the same territory. The old USMC manual on "Small Wars" is good also--and very much to the point.

Have come close a few times between the service and as an LEO. It's a mindset thing plus.

Also was fortunate enough to spend an afternoon with Rex Applegate on the subject, and a morning with Jim Cirillo, ditto. Cirillo once did an article on how to select and train the gunfighter--a real gem.

[Oldskoolfan]

Dienekes do you have any links to that article? Or know the name of it by chance?

[rageofangels]

Interesting read. I've never been in combat, or had to draw and I hope to God I never will. I work in a very bad neighborhood and the parking garage is about 3 blocks down (it changes, semi-regularly) and I am fearful that I will have to draw at least once before I graduate and find a new job.

Of course, I am still looking for a job but I have yet to find one that will hire part time for more than 11+ an hour and be flexible with school.

I'm stubborn, I never said I was smart. :D

I have a very pronounced limp and I think this makes me appear to be an easy target because I get asked for money at least 3 times a week and a lot of the times they look shocked when I say "No thanks."

Its hard to give money out when you don't carry cash. I've only had one guy get angry by me telling him no. He started telling me that I saw him yesterday and he said I promised him if I saw him again, I would give him money. I knew that I had not and asked him if he had was calling me a liar and it was after that moment, he realized I wasn't a pushover and just walked away.

I think if I ever did use it, I don't know that I could talk about it.

[North Texan]

Thankfully, I've never had to actually use deadly force, although I've thought I was going to have to at least twice. I had two crackheads accost me at an Allsups in New Mexico when I made a stop late at night on my way back to Texas, and the same thing at a Whataburger (that was next to a Greyhound bus stop). Fortunately staring them down worked both times without ever having to reach for my weapon (which happened to be a knife on both occasions).

[lyricsdad]

(that was next to a Greyhound bus stop)
arent all bus stops in the worst part of town? i know in Albuquerque that one is... err was when i lived there..

[North Texan]

I think so. If it's not the worst part of town, putting the bus stop in sure seems to get it there in a hurry. I think Greyhound bus driver is probably the very last thing on my list of potential jobs. I don't think I could handle being around some of those people for all the tea in China.

[Sgt Stevo]

I have never fired a 'pistol' at a human. Just an M-4. Same as thousands of other guys.

Things happen fast. so train a bit. a couple of times I was fired upon and did not know it.
Just a couple of holes in the truck.
Once I could not react fast enough. I am no tough guy, and I was very scared.

be careful what you wish for. welcome to the THR. be well.

stevo

[SquirrelNuts]

I have been in one shooting to protect my life and my family.

Some points about it.

1) It was easier than I thought it would be. By that, my body took over. I never thought about it.
2) Tunnel vision sucks with multiple attacks.
3) It started and was over within maybe 3 seconds.
4) Your body will revert to training. I do not remember removing the safety.
5) Use enough gun.
6) Your memory of the event will be blurry. It does not seem hard to recall three seconds, but I still cannot recall a few portions.
7) I did not hear a single shot. This was not due to hearing damage, but probably adrenaline.
8) It took a while for the effects to wear off.
9) I was scared when I knew it was coming, but did not hesitate.
10) I have turned around and come back home a few times when I realized I was unarmed.

[mndfusion]

I've had guns pointed at me and been shot at a number of times. I know its not funny but HAHAHAHAH I was a crazy youth lol....

The only time that I really think about was when these 2 carjackers robbed me and a few females in front of my house, they folowed us off the interstate.(i think)

These 2 punks killed 2 people the next day, drowned them in a volvo's trunk -- and rapped a girl leaving her for dead tied to tree. Mcadoo and Williams were the perps. they got caught...

I learned a very hard lesson. Always pack, cause lunatics with big black auto's on the loose may end up killing an Astronauts son after they rob you, like Shaw.

http://www.texas-justice.com/dalnews/earle970828.htm

[syndicado]

Cops typically do very bad when they're in startle recovery or reactive mode. The hit rates are better in proactive mode. Many cops never see their front sight when they're shooting in startle recovery mode. The other side of that story is that many cops have reported seeing their front sights while shooting, if they had some advanced warning that they were about to be in a gunfight. This has happened even if they were very scared. Jim Cirillo, perhaps America's most experienced living police gunfighter, reported that he saw the front sight of his pistol in such sharp focus during his first gunfight that he noticed the little striations on the front sight of his S&W Model 10 as he felt it recoilling in his hand. Cirillo, though, had just burst out of a mop closet in a convienience store as it was being robbed. He reported that his heart was pounding, his legs felt like jelly, and that he remembered thinking "Who's shooting my pistol?," when he felt the recoil. He still got three hits on three robbers. When Cirillo retired from the NYPD he had been in 17 gunfights that resulted in 11 fatalities as a member of the now defunct, famous, infamous, NYPD Stakeout Squad.

[mljdeckard]

You do know that he's dead, right?

[CWL]

Not as long as this thread has been buried.

[janobles14]

Its aliiiiiive! :)

[JMusic]

1. Squirrellnuts I've had 4 or 5 serious hand to hands. Not once did I think of my weapon so I know what you mean.

2. After about 6 months I didn't get sartled or scared as much.

3. I have a genetic something that makes me move as soon as shooting starts unless I have cover.

4. Its a rush and if everything works out you stay up with the crew and laugh and talk about the encounter for hours.

Syndicato

I had an incident to your point just a coule weeks before taking another job. A guy who was selling drugs and the team I ussually placed me in a safe place. I was to stay with one of the deputys who was guarding this guy. 4-5 people in the room. I was standing beside the guy when he reached inside his shirt then drove his hand under the bed. I hit him in the head with my pistol before his handcame out I was half way on the double action model 15. Not one of the others reacted to him but did react when I drew.

Its awareness, it happens to us all. When ina dangerious situation make sure you are totally aware, its like bird, or rabbit hunting.



Jim

Jim

[mustang_steve]

arent all bus stops in the worst part of town? i know in Albuquerque that one is... err was when i lived there..
Not all of them, however the ones that aren't seem to be in the most isolated and creepy places ever. During a trip home from my father's (my car was totaled a few weeks earlier), I got off at the wrong stop (same town name, but wrong state...about 30 mi apart, over a state line). I was sitting there in sub-zero temps at a freaking graveyard in the middle of timbuktu for five hours. Thankfully the driver who was supposed to pick me up called another bus when nobody was waiting for him, and he picked me up.

Back to topic....only shooting at anyone I have ever done was airsoft. It's pretty fun, and can be very intense. I hope I never have to shoot at anyone with anything more severe than that.

[scottaschultz]

Never been in a gunfight. Have shown up minutes after dozens of gunfight deaths and investigated. Prosecuted hundreds of gunfight cases (murders), and thousands of gun assaults.
Knowledge I have gleaned:

1. Stay away from bad parts of town. (Duh).
2. Don't buy or sell drugs. (Duh).
3. Don't flash money around.
4. Always be aware of your surroundings, especially at stop signs, traffic lights, etc.
5. If someone flags you down, or asks for your attention:
a) assume it is a con or ruse to rob you;
b) assume they have an accomplice behind you, or are attempting to distract you to get them there
c) be alert and prepare for/recognize the dangers that may be forthcoming
6. Carry the largest caliber you can shoot well
7. Carry a simple-to-use, reliable weapon
8. Practice with your weapon that meets criteria 6 and 7
9. Remind yourself of numbers 1-5 daily

-David
And from what I have been reading in the S&T forums:

10: Stay away from Wal-Mart! For some reason, the parking lot brings out the worst in people. These stores seem to be a magnet for criminal activity and attract the lowest dregs of society. Besides, you won't find any handgun ammunition there anyway!

You never see a thread that begins, "A suspicious looking character came up to me on the parking lot at Nieman Marcus or Saks Fifth Avenue..."

Scott

[makarovnik]

I've had a couple incidents with four legged critters but they weren't shooting back.

[parisite]

I have been charged by a wild hog before intent on doing me bodily harm. Never let people tell you that is not an adrenaline rush.

[Cards81fan]

Howdy Moose, and welcome aboard.

You'll find that those who have don't talk about it much, and them that talk probably haven't...at least the ones who go into detail.

Cheers!
+1. My grandfather served as a tank gunner in the Battle of the Bulge, liberated a concentration camp with the photos to prove it, and the only stories he shared were non-combat except two; the others were about working in Bonn for several months after the war pushing paperwork as a typist for the officers. He also talked about how much he hated the Salt Lake City Army post office he worked at before he deployed.

In one combat tale, no shots were fired. In pursuit of a German tank, the said German tank ran out of gas. He said they took all their ammo, gave them 10 gallons of gas and a head start.

In the other, he vividly remembers being in a field and hearing someone yell his name and telling him to duck. he did, and shots whizzed by, skipping over his helmet like flat rocks on water. He talked with his fellow troops after the incident and none of them yelled or could say anyone else did. He swore until the day he died it was a real guardian angel who spoke to him.

Somewhat off topic reply to an older thread, but wanted to reinforce the comment above. Most won't share any details, but we appreciate what is shared by those who do.

[Armybrat]

Wasn't really in a gunfight, but actually was present at the Charles Whitman University of Texas Tower Massacre.

Had to crouch behind a car while he was shooting at random targets around campus. Only heard a couple of bullets whizzing by - not close to me. It was pretty scary. One unfortunate fellow was shot dead less than 100 yards from where we were hunkered down.

[metallic]

Not really a gunfight, but I was held at gunpoint for a good 5 minutes once. What I took away from that incident:

1. In a situation like this, focus becomes solely on the threat and your field of vision narrows
2. Every sense in your body becomes alive and you have amazing clarity of thought
3. Always trust your spidy sense
4. Coming down from an adrenaline rush really sucks. Plenty of shaking and weak knees afterwards

[theotherwaldo]

When I've had to shoot I didn't have time to get scared.

When I had time to get scared I didn't have to shoot.

When I had to shoot, the guy may have lived.

When I didn't shoot, the guys in question wound up dead by their own hand. Both times.

Go figure.

[Marlin 45 carbine]

I found myself in a sort of 'deliverance' situation nearly 30 years back when camping on a m/c trip. I had my trail gun Ruger MK w/a spare clip and found myself down to that spare clip. I didn't get hurt and AFAIK (I didn't report the incident to LE) the thugs weren't hit but never again will I be caught out in the boonies without a back-up pistol with clip/speedloader and more ammo for my primary pistol.
I spent an anxious night in that remote area.

[Leanwolf]

MARLIN 45 CARBINE - "I found myself in a sort of 'deliverance' situation nearly 30 years back when camping on a m/c trip. I had my trail gun Ruger MK w/a spare clip and found myself down to that spare clip. I didn't get hurt and AFAIK (I didn't report the incident to LE) the thugs weren't hit but never again will I be caught out in the boonies without a back-up pistol with clip/speedloader and more ammo for my primary pistol."

If you don't mind posting them, the incidentals of your experience out in the boonies might well prove a learning lesson for those of us who "bust the boonies."

L.W.

[middy]

The one time I almost had to draw down on someone, my weapon was empty!

I had just gotten back from the range, and my wife had an old high school friend over who was strung out on meth. We were letting her use the shower and change her clothes, when this so-called friend of hers walks by down the street and sees her car in the driveway. I don't know what his beef was with her, but he started yelling semi-coherent profanities and punching her car.

I ran back inside and put my pistol down the front of my pants, still in the IWB holster, but not attached to my belt, having no time. I walked back out and shouted at him to get out of my driveway. Now, this was a big, mean looking guy, like how you might imagine a native American lumberjack who likes bar-fights would look. I was shaking, I didn't want to fight him or shoot him.

He immediately took two steps toward me, and I shook my head and grabbed the edge of my t-shirt, ready to pull it up and draw. He noticed the motion and looked down at my waist, I could almost see the gears turning in his head as he realized I was packing, then he looked up at me with an expression rather like a little boy denied a treat... "That's not fair!" then he turned and stomped off down the street.

That was when I remembered that the pistol was empty. :eek:

[Armybrat]

So you were carrying in Condition 13?

[mljdeckard]

If you carry, you must commit to a higher standard of behavior. You can't argue with strangers over nothing. You can't measure genitalia with the guy in the next lane who wants to show you who's boss. You must resist the urge to tell the jerk in the bar exactly what you think of his mother. You must GET RID OF FRIENDS WHO WILL LIKELY GET INTO TROUBLE. (Trouble is contagious.) You must live a life free of grudges and feuds. You must remember that stupid things other people say like; "I'll kill you the next time I see you!" will be used against you if you ever DO actually wind up having to kill that person. Most people who get into trouble and wind up shooting someone make bad life choices. If you are serious enough about protecting your life top carry a gun, then you must also be serious enough to examine your life and see if you are really doing all you can to avoid trouble in the first place.

You need to re-commit yourself to following all laws. Including traffic laws. When asking yourself you you do something no one else does, "Because it's the law" is a perfectly acceptable answer.

[Just One Shot]

mljdeckard,

You have posted true words of wisdom, words we would all do well to remember!

[middy]

If you carry, you must commit to a higher standard of behavior. You can't argue with strangers over nothing. You can't measure genitalia with the guy in the next lane who wants to show you who's boss. You must resist the urge to tell the jerk in the bar exactly what you think of his mother. You must GET RID OF FRIENDS WHO WILL LIKELY GET INTO TROUBLE. (Trouble is contagious.) You must live a life free of grudges and feuds. You must remember that stupid things other people say like; "I'll kill you the next time I see you!" will be used against you if you ever DO actually wind up having to kill that person. Most people who get into trouble and wind up shooting someone make bad life choices. If you are serious enough about protecting your life top carry a gun, then you must also be serious enough to examine your life and see if you are really doing all you can to avoid trouble in the first place.

You need to re-commit yourself to following all laws. Including traffic laws. When asking yourself you you do something no one else does, "Because it's the law" is a perfectly acceptable answer.

True enough. Not only did I get rid of the "friend", I got rid of the wife too. She became involved with that bunch of losers, if you know what I mean.

If I had to do it over again, I would have stayed inside and called the cops and let him beat up her car.

[Marlin 45 carbine]

Quote:
MARLIN 45 CARBINE - "I found myself in a sort of 'deliverance' situation nearly 30 years back when camping on a m/c trip. I had my trail gun Ruger MK w/a spare clip and found myself down to that spare clip. I didn't get hurt and AFAIK (I didn't report the incident to LE) the thugs weren't hit but never again will I be caught out in the boonies without a back-up pistol with clip/speedloader and more ammo for my primary pistol."

If you don't mind posting them, the incidentals of your experience out in the boonies might well prove a learning lesson for those of us who "bust the boonies."

L.W.

time has blurred my memory some but here goes. I had a BSA 650 that was the copy of the Triumph 650 TT and nearly a dirt bike. I loaded up one fall afternoon with gear for an overnight at a remote area underneath the Blue Ridge Parkway where the brookies swarm in Kieesse Creek. there is a trail nearby going uphill to a small waterfall with a flat spot I had camped at before. about 100 yds or so, a really rough jeep track. I BSA'ed on up it and had my camp set up and fire going and had fried some fish, onions and taters and was just relaxing about dusk - 30 when an old pick-up goes by the trail on the gravel f.s. road, slows and backs up into the trail head.
3 men get out, 1 of which I later recognized as a local tough with a mean reputation from the upper end of the county - the other 2 (younger) I didn't recognize. I had my camp set up by some boulders and my sleeping bag rolled out with a hatchet stuck into a limb I had dragged in for firewood. the fellas came up the trail carrying beers (at the time this was a dry county) and came to my site. I had the foresight to slip my Ruger out of the holster and stick it under the edge of my bag within easy reach. they came up and looked around and asked some inane questions and so on - I think maybe they were looking for an easy robbery and realized I wasn't it as I'm 6'4" and at the time was in good condition and the hatchet w/in reach, so they went back down to the truck leaving me feeling uneasy.
they got into the truck and I got behind the boulder and aimed my .22 at the cab light. sure enough my suspicions were confirmed as the truck started up and .22 slugs began whizzing my way the report sounding as a rifle. when they paused I returned fire and heard some 'whacks' on the metal/glass of the truck which immeditaley sped away but I had emptyed the 10 shots in the pistol leaving me with the spare clip of 10 cartridges which now I was really thankful I had w/me. after waiting a bit I gathered my gear and left that area going further up the gravel - I was fearful of going towards the pavement as that's the way they went - to another area further off the gravel. I sat up till dawn with my pistol handy then hauled a*# to the pavement and back towards civilization.
since then I've always carried 2 pistols one my 'trail' .22 either a revolver w/speedloader or semi w/spare clip and a box of cartridges as well as either my .32acp Berreta or my Makarov 9mm with a spare clip when going alone into a remote area.
I was in 'Nam so had been in stressful situs before but this one really gave me the heeby-jeebys. so far this bit of bad luck hasn't repeated except for a run-in with packs of dogs both this area and in N. Georgia where the spare 22 clip was used.

[george29]

Just watch Gangland on History Channel, those guys have more experience than anyone else. Just goes to show that there are plenty of people that have been shot and survived.

[Leanwolf]

Marlin 45 Carbine, thank you for that account. I know exactly what you mean about a comparatively remote camp where some ne'er-do-wells come in and mean to do harm to you.

No gunfight, but ......

I had a somewhat like experience in the mid-Sierra of Calif., in the Fall of 1964, while deer hunting alone. I had managed to drive my 1960 Fairlane Ford on an old dirt F.S. road to a two-tire path leading to a semi-clearing in a group of trees. It was about 200 yards off the dirt road, obscured in a stand of Ponderosa pines. The place had been used several times previously as there was a cleared flat area for a small tent and a ring of rocks for fire.

I had pitched my small tent and sleeping bag, set up an old card table for a "cooking area," and placed a folding camp chair near the fire ring. My Coleman lantern was hanging from a rope near the table. Overall, a very adequate camp.

I hunted for two days but had no luck. At night when I returned to camp, I saw almost no vehicles pass on the old dirt road. Each night, I placed my rifle (Rem. 725 .280 Remington) in the trunk of my car along with my hunting knife. In those days, I didn't think along the lines of "self protection" out in the beautiful, pristine mountains. (I did, however, in Los Angeles, but that was different.)

On the third night, after supper, I was sitting in front of the fire, enjoying the evening, when an old pickup passed by on the dirt road. It then stopped, backed up, and drove up and stopped about 25 yards from my camp, headlights shining on me. No doubt my Coleman lantern and campfire could be seen from the road.

Two guys got out, left the pickup's headlights on and walked to the "edge" of my camp. They were dressed about like anyone would be who was hunting or just out in the boonies. They asked if I'd seen anything or had any luck hunting? I said I hadn't. There was a bit of small talk about the weather, etc. Then "You by yourself," one asked? I answered I was. They began looking carefully at my stuff, my car, and then one asked "Whatcha got in the tent?"

I said, "My sleeping bag and hunting stuff." Then I asked "Why?" By then, my suspicions were beginning to redlight. My rifle and hunting knife were locked in the trunk, completely inaccessable. Even though I owned several handguns and a shotgun, they were home in my place in Los Angeles. (Hey, who needs to tote around a heavy handgun when you're deer hunting with a high powered rifle, huh?)

I could not see that they were armed but they both were wearing heavy jackets and might have had on sidearms. The one guy who was larger said, "Well I think we'll just see what's in there."

I was thinking that the only "weapons" I had were a cast iron skillet and an old kitchen paring knife on the card table. The one guy started toward the tent and the other guy started for me, as I moved toward the skillet. At that moment, to my great relief, another pickup with a camper on top, came off the dirt road onto the path leading to my camping area.

Immediately, the driver of the pickup in which the two wannabee thieves came, honked the horn, flashed his headlights and the two guys turned and ran to the truck. They jumped in and the truck turned and drove past the oncoming pickup and disappeared on the dirt road.

The new pickup parked and two guys got out, asking me what that was all about? I told them and believe me, thanked them for appearing when they did. They were deer hunters who were going to camp there. I assure you I was more than happy they were going to camp nearby. Both were wearing handguns.

One of them asked if I had a handgun and I said no. He laughed and said maybe I ought to bring one next time. He and his friend lived in a small town about 20 miles away and he said there were a lot of "rough characters" in that area so it never hurt to be prepared. I immediately unlocked my trunk and had my rifle with me from then on.

I never, ever went out into the boonies again without a sidearm, in addition to my long gun, no matter what I was hunting nor where I was camped. Still do to this day.

L.W.

[mljdeckard]

George29-

The ones that live to talk about it on the history channel cannot represent those that didn't. That you MIGHT survive is hardly a reason to start making life decisions that are dangerous. I don't count living the life of a criminal as experience for anything other than being a criminal.

[Clarence]

If it ever happens to you it will be faster than you can imagine.

The one time it happened to me I didn't have time to get scared but after it was over I got so mad I couldn't see straight.

[Marlin 45 carbine]

at the time of the 'incident' that happened to me (maybe incident is better description that an actual 'gunfight') I owned several firearms including a lever 30-30 and a Brit .303, a Colt Python and G.I. .45 but the one I wished I had was my Marlin mdl 60 tack-driver and few boxes of SuperX's. that Ruger seemed very insufficient that night.