Homerland Sekurity saves us from EXPLODING SCHOOLBUSES..?


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Manedwolf
February 19, 2006, 09:33 PM
Good lord. Well, I feel safer, don't you? Where DO they get these ideas? Check out the highlighted "scenario"... your taxpayer dollars put to good use!

Now, about that southern border thing and those port things...

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School Bus Drivers Join the Terror Watch

By BEN FELLER, AP Education WriterFri Feb 17, 11:39 PM ET

The war on terror has a new front line the school bus line. Financed by the Homeland Security Department, school bus drivers are being trained to watch for potential terrorists, people who may be casing their routes or plotting to blow up their buses.

Designers of the School Bus Watch program want to turn 600,000 bus drivers into an army of observers, like a counterterrorism watch on wheels. Already mindful of motorists with road rage and kids with weapons, bus drivers are now being warned of far more grisly scenarios.

Like this one: terrorists monitor a punctual driver for weeks, then hijack a bus and load the friendly yellow vehicle with enough explosives to take down a building. (from me: like they couldn't buy a junkyard one and repaint it...?)

An alert school bus driver could foil that plan, security expert Jeffrey Beatty recently told a class of 250 of drivers in Norfolk, Va. After all, bus drivers cover millions of miles of roads. They know the towns, the kids, the parents.

"The terrorist is not going to be able to do some of their casing and rehearsal activity without being detected by one of you," said Beatty, an anti-terrorism veteran of the CIA, FBI and the Army's Delta Force. The more people watching, he told the drivers, the safer the community will be.

With bus drivers becoming informal intelligence gatherers, the reach of homeland security is growing not exactly what parents think of when their kids head to the bus stop.

The program demands strong oversight, said John Rollins, a former senior Homeland Security intelligence official now with Congressional Research Service.

Otherwise, he said, some bus drivers could think of themselves as undercover agents.

"Today it's bus drivers, tomorrow it could be postal officials, and the next day, it could be, 'Why don't we have this program in place for the people who deliver the newspaper to the door?'" Rollins said. "We could quickly get into a society where we're all spying on each other. It may be well intentioned, but there is a concern of going a bit too far." (You think?!)

Most school bus drivers do the job part-time, often to supplement other income. Many are retirees, mothers with young children, people between jobs, or school employees who also work as mechanics, janitors or classroom aides, according to government and industry officials.

The drivers are not being trained to be police. Their role is to report suspicious behavior to dispatchers, who alert the police and funnel tips to a national analysis center.

The new effort is part of Highway Watch, an industry safety program run by the American Trucking Associations and financed since 2003 with $50 million in homeland security money.

Leaders of Highway Watch worked with the school bus industry to tailor training for drivers, who are trusted each day to ferry 25 million children to and from school.

So far, tens of thousands of bus operators have been trained in places large and small, from Dallas and New York City to Kure Beach, N.C., Hopewell, Va., and Mt. Pleasant, Texas.

"As a bus driver, going down the same streets and going into the same neighborhoods every day, you know when there's a car that shouldn't be there," said Bob Pearson, who drives a school bus in Fairfax County, Va. "You have to realize that a school bus goes everywhere."

When he worked as a homicide detective, Pearson gathered tips from everyone on the roads truck drivers, trash men, mail workers. So to him, recruiting bus drivers is logical.

Down in Norfolk, Shelita Hill, a driver for 23 years, acknowledged that she never thought of her school bus as a target of terrorism until she heard Beatty speak. Neither had many others in the class.

"He woke us up," Hill said.

Schools are the kind of target that terrorists want, Beatty said: a place where an attack could have huge symbolic impact and lead to mass casualties and spectacular images.

To underscore the point, he reminded drivers of Beslan, Russia, where terrorists stormed a school in 2004, killing 331 adults and children in a storm of gunfire and explosions.

In Virginia, bus drivers were taught how to identify and evaluate unusual activity. What drew your attention to this person in the first place? Is someone unfamiliar taking photos or drawing sketches of the area? Is the person asking a lot of questions about the bus route?

Then the drivers got tips on how to report what they saw: Jot down facts immediately. Back away from the situation to get a broader view. Are there accomplices?

Next came the security sweep. Drivers were shown how to inspect their buses, not just for routine maintenance flaws, but also for tampering by terrorists. A bus has lots of hiding places for a bomb the glove box, luggage bins, the engine compartment, the first-aid kit.

Victor Manuele, a longtime school bus driver in New York and now in Norfolk, said he has been doing pre-trip safety inspections for years. Just not for explosives.

"I don't think I ever thought about, 'Oh, well, here, let me check my bus for a bomb,'" Manuele said after the training. "So, you know, all of that stuff is very helpful."

Kenneth Trump, a school safety consultant who tracks security trends, said being prepared is not being alarmist. "Denying and downplaying schools and school buses as potential terror targets here in the U.S.," Trump said, "would be foolish."

When drivers finish their training, they get confidential School Bus Watch ID numbers. They are reminded never to profile people as suspicious based on culture or ethnicity.

"They know what looks right and what looks wrong," Beatty said. "All we can do is ask them to use their judgment."

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Merkin.Muffley
February 19, 2006, 09:36 PM
I hope they start opening those kids lunch boxes before they board the bus - who knows what sort of devious device might be hiding in a Sponge Bob lunch box?

IndianaDean
February 19, 2006, 09:37 PM
I guess the government will ban lunch boxes.:rolleyes:

LAR-15
February 19, 2006, 09:41 PM
They blow up kids on buses in Israel

GTSteve03
February 19, 2006, 09:47 PM
They blow up kids on buses in Israel
They blow up buildings in the US with Ryder trucks.

I don't see a ban on Ryder trucks...


yet.

IndianaDean
February 19, 2006, 09:49 PM
Teachers and bus drivers in Israel by contrast are required to be armed to combat terrorism. If we're under such a threat, why aren't they arming the teachers in the US and allowing us to carry firearms at the schools and on buses?

Biker
February 19, 2006, 09:53 PM
They blow up kids on buses in Israel
"They" are not doing that here, at this point. Seems to me that at this time, energy and funds commited to this feel-good program would be better commited to preventing the potential Ts from gaining entry to this country, and failing that, tracking them down and deporting them as per the ICE mission statement.
Make sense to you?
Does to me.
Biker

LAR-15
February 19, 2006, 09:57 PM
Terrorists would love to hi-jack a bus and commit a bunch of abortions for Allah.

LAR-15
February 19, 2006, 09:58 PM
So protecting kids from terrorism is a waste of monies?

Manedwolf
February 19, 2006, 10:00 PM
So protecting kids from terrorism is a waste of monies?

Straw man. Total straw man argument in that question.

The question is "is this is most effective means of protecting kids from terrorism"? ...especially when the borders are wide open.

Old Dog
February 19, 2006, 10:03 PM
I don't have a problem with this at all. First, as LAR-15 pointed out, children and school buses have frequently been targeted in Israel. I happened to be in Haifa when one such incident took place.

It make sense that terrorists would go after soft targets here, especially targets which they know would have the most emotional impact on us.

The program is probably not, in the great scheme of things, unduly costly. It seems to make sense to make use of the millions of eyes we have on our roadways (in the forms of truck and bus drivers) to keep alert for potential threats.

Biker
February 19, 2006, 10:06 PM
So protecting kids from terrorism is a waste of monies?
Nope. Not at all. Spending the money wisely is the key. Dealing with the turds *after* they gain entrance is infantile, and allowing them to remain here illegaly is worse. Most of the Saudis who perped 911 were here on expired visas. Ya think that if we had enforced existing laws, we might have prevented that tradgedy? Just possibly?
Biker

Manedwolf
February 19, 2006, 10:06 PM
I don't have a problem with this at all. First, as LAR-15 pointed out, children and school buses have frequently been targeted in Israel. I happened to be in Haifa when one such incident took place.

It make sense that terrorists would go after soft targets here, especially targets which they know would have the most emotional impact on us.

The program is probably not, in the great scheme of things, unduly costly. It seems to make sense to make use of the millions of eyes we have on our roadways (in the forms of truck and bus drivers) to keep alert for potential threats.


And this couldn't be, say, just handing out happy meaningless civil defense hats and badges as they did in the 1950's, but WITHOUT at the same time going after the bigger threats?

I mean, look at the article: "When drivers finish their training, they get confidential School Bus Watch ID numbers. "

Wow! They get an Official Secret ID Number, even! They can feel like special undercover agents, instead of just...uh...bus drivers!

Waste. Of. Time.
Waste. Of. Money.
Waste. Of. Resources.

Borders: wide open
Ports: unsecured AND sold to Islamists

But...ignore all that. Duck and Cover, you got your special secret badge!

JohnKSa
February 19, 2006, 10:10 PM
WARNING! BEFORE reading farther, please read the disclaimer at the end of the post.

I heard that terrorists were practicing to blow up buses but decided it was a bad idea. Apparently they gave up after finding out how painful it was to burn their lips on the exhaust pipes.

Old Dog
February 19, 2006, 10:17 PM
You can make fun of programs such as this all you want. Usually, the most effective preventive measures are the simplest, and involve involving those in routine positions who are part of a daily routine. If you've ever lived in a foreign country where there exist multiple types of violent threats, you'd understand this.

The borders can be sealed airtight and we'll still see terrorists getting into this country. One might reasonably presume that the terrorists we need to be worried about are those already here, who've been living here for some time ... It doesn't take a super-secret, highly trained, former SEAL counter-terrorist agent to detect a threat; it could just as well be bakery truck driver noticing something out of the ordinary during his routine early morning deliveries.

Biker
February 19, 2006, 10:24 PM
You can make fun of programs such as this all you want. Usually, the most effective preventive measures are the simplest, and involve involving those in routine positions who are part of a daily routine. If you've ever lived in a foreign country where there exist multiple types of violent threats, you'd understand this.

The borders can be sealed airtight and we'll still see terrorists getting into this country. One might reasonably presume that the terrorists we need to be worried about are those already here, who've been living here for some time ... It doesn't take a super-secret, highly trained, former SEAL counter-terrorist agent to detect a threat; it could just as well be bakery truck driver noticing something out of the ordinary during his routine early morning deliveries.
Yeah, rumor has it that I spent time in countries resembling those you describe.
Fact is, you don't have to shoot the burglar if you prevent him from entering your house in the first place. You know, burglar alarms, fences that kind of thing? 'Course, that may be just too simple of a solution. Hmmmm?
Biker

Old Dog
February 19, 2006, 10:39 PM
Sorry, Biker. It's just not that simple. Unless you really do want to live in that dreaded "police state."
So what would "secure borders" look like to you?

IndianaDean
February 19, 2006, 10:47 PM
Preventing the burglar from entering my home in the first place will likely make them pick a home that doesn't not have safeguards, and possibly no other defenses. What happens when that poor person discovers the burglar?

Burglar alarms, dogs, etc are not cheap. For many of us purchasing and training with a firearm is a much more affordable and practical option.

NukemJim
February 19, 2006, 11:20 PM
Tighten the border security certainly. Try to stop them before coming in yes. BUT Some terrorists are almost certainly here and if you think that people cannot sneak in no matter how much you tighten the border security I believe that you are mistaken.

In Beslan the scool had been under observation from the village both prior to and during the attack.

We ARE going to be hit sooner or later. Shools are a high probability. I say that due to report on news services of AQ members being caught in Iraq with the emergency response plans to schools in 6 different states :what:

AQ has also planned and praticed such an attack. I have pesonally seen an AQ training video (Captured in Afghanastan) showing AQ's taking over a school with targets and roleplayers (both children and adult)Shouting commands in ENGLISH.

1 Week after watching that video in a training seminar Beslan occured.
Wierded me out and scared the bejeebers out of me and my girlfriend ( she was also at the seminar )

I would LOVE to be wrong on this, but we are going to be hit. Anything we can do to stop it from happening should be done but the realityis it may make it less expensive in terms of lives lost. But some lives will be lost.:cuss: :banghead: :( :fire:

NukemJim

NukemJim

Jim March
February 19, 2006, 11:35 PM
School districts sell their used buses complete with the paint job. Only the school name (or district name) is spray-painted out. Churches buy 'em, and people often convert them to RVs, the term for such is "skoolies". They're often priced down in the $5k range.

Just add paint, psycho and bomb :(.

Manedwolf
February 19, 2006, 11:52 PM
School districts sell their used buses complete with the paint job. Only the school name (or district name) is spray-painted out. Churches buy 'em, and people often convert them to RVs, the term for such is "skoolies". They're often priced down in the $5k range.

Just add paint, psycho and bomb :(.

That's what I would consider a more worthwhile program. Put controls and checks on the sales of "high level of trust" vehicles such as schoolbuses, ambulances, and taxis. Particularly ambulances. Imagine that, they make one into a giant bomb, and all the cars get out of the way as it speeds to its target...which could be a place where a smaller bomb has already gone off as a precursor to cause a crowd of evacuating people.

Being that insurgents blew up a stolen ambulance in Iraq, I'm sure they've thought of it. That's the sort of thing we as taxpayers are PAYING the homeland security people to think of...and they're not. They can't even secure the borders.

Kamicosmos
February 20, 2006, 01:34 AM
I think it was around this time last year that I read of an Identical Plan to edumacate truckers to become a fleet of counter-terrorist observers.

Lucky
February 20, 2006, 04:25 AM
Probably just bureaucracy doing a power grab, some bureaucrat hopes to get his own department some day, that sort of thing.

There's nothing stopping drivers from being alert and reporting stuff they see already. They probably have a system already set up for reporting suspicious persons that's been in place for decades.

But that's too much freedom, you need to have a boss and a commisar... As a bonus, if concerned individuals wish to be armed, since they are told terrorists plan to hijack their bus, it would be a privledge they'd be granted by the dept, not the exercise of a right...

Or maybe I've seen too much bureaucracy and power-games and I'm jaded now.

spartacus2002
February 20, 2006, 07:48 AM
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0451525825.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.gif

Camp David
February 20, 2006, 08:43 AM
Good lord. Well, I feel safer, don't you? Where DO they get these ideas? Check out the highlighted "scenario"... your taxpayer dollars put to good use!

Sorry Manedwolf... I disagree... school bus drivers are best equipped to notice things in neighborhoods since they see it everyday... we don't have manpower in this nation to deploy the types of security we should; taking advantage of school bus drivers, training them, and using them in the War on Terror makes good sense! They are simply an extension of Neighborhood Watch programs that many neighborhoods have adopted...

What is it precisely you disagree with here?

bogie
February 20, 2006, 09:03 AM
Methinx that some of our leadership is too fixated on "...and blow up a really big building." There's other terrorist activity out there... Look at the successful Md/DC snipers, for instance.

longrifleman
February 20, 2006, 09:06 AM
They're often priced down in the $5k range.


When I was on the local School Board, we sold one for $250. It was the only bid we got. We are kinda out in the boonies.

This program is a classic example of a bureaucracy looking to justify it's existience. I didn't notice if they were getting a secret de-coder ring to go with the badge.

I think our security folks are spending too many late nights watching old Chuck Norris movies. This is right out of Invasion USA. The one where Chuck and the baddie ended up dueling with rocket launchers.

joab
February 20, 2006, 09:26 AM
They blow up buildings in the US with Ryder trucks.

I don't see a ban on Ryder trucks... Have you tried to buy fertilizer in bomb making quantities lately.
What kind of checks did they do on you and what info was passed on the last time you rented a Ryder.

Wouldn't this simply fall under the heading of human intelligence that most have blasted Clinton for scaling back.

What mega expensive equipment have they installed on these buses, I know there isn't a bunch of complaining going on here simply for a few training classes.

Methinks that some of us are too fixated on hating the government because it's the cool thing to do right now

Biker
February 20, 2006, 09:38 AM
Sorry, Biker. It's just not that simple. Unless you really do want to live in that dreaded "police state."
So what would "secure borders" look like to you?
Build that wall. Man the border with NG with BP officers imbeeded with each unit to enforce civil laws so no posse comitatus issues arise. Possie Commitatus shouldn't be a problem anyway because the NG are simply guarding the border, not enforcing internal law, but with BP embedded with each unit, there should be no problem.
Have ICE get on internal enforcement, hunting down those with expired visas to begin with, deporting any and all violaters.
We have the manpower, money and technology to accomplish these things, we simply lack the political will. Apparantly, votes are more important to these bastiges than is our national security.
Biker

TallPine
February 20, 2006, 11:32 AM
Actually, there is nothing wrong with this program in theory: citizens watching out for their own neighborhoods. Of course, when workers at certain flight schools reported suspicious behavior of some of their students a few years back, the FBI declined to investigate :rolleyes:

Anything the feral goobermint gets its mitts on usually gets messed up :(

lostone1413
February 20, 2006, 11:50 AM
Most if not all you read about the terrorist is just what the government wants you to believe. They are just getting ready to set the stage for the next war in the mid east. The true terrorist are held up in DC. They are the ones who are destroying the Republic. Over a million a year just walk into the country. The BP Agents get shot at more times the the press will ever let you know. The Mexican Army has crossed over the borders over 200X. The government even admits this. How can anyone believe anything the government tells you? The war in Iraq is over the oil fields. The government and the Elite needed 911 to try and justify their actions. Don't bet someone living in a cave 12,000 miles away planned 911 with no help. You think the government is above something like that? Better read the true history of what the leaders and Elite have pulled of many times before

joab
February 20, 2006, 12:04 PM
So other than you hatred of Bush, or "King George" as you call him, what is the problem with school bus drivers watching out for things that could endanger the children that have been put in the care?

griz
February 20, 2006, 12:29 PM
I live in the area, this is local news to me. Here is another little tidbit. Just a week or so before this training, a school got phone call that a bomb was on a school bus. They of course checked every bus and there was no bomb. Turned out to be some nut job. But it is still foolish to ignore this potential threat. Training drivers sounds like the cheapest and most effective way to reduce the risks.

Lucky
February 20, 2006, 12:30 PM
Maybe, and it's probably just me, but I think maybe 'watching out' is a good thing when it's done by concerned citizens, and a bad thing when it's done by agents of the state.

First of all, the state ought to have to prove a need for it's program, and it also should have to proove a failure in the current system of bus-driver's reporting suspicious activity, and then the state ought to also prove that they have the ability to do it better than the bus-drivers. Seems like all 3 requirements ought to be met.

Otherwise the whole deal is too similar to, well, Cuba and East Germany.

joab
February 20, 2006, 12:35 PM
First of all, the state ought to have to prove a need for it's program, and it also should have to proove a failure in the current system of bus-driver's reporting suspicious activity,You mean how they had to prove asystem failure with 9-11.
and then the state ought to also prove that they have the ability to do it better than the bus-drivers. OK one of us didn't read or comprehend the article

lostone1413
February 20, 2006, 12:47 PM
So other than you hatred of Bush, or "King George" as you call him, what is the problem with school bus drivers watching out for things that could endanger the children that have been put in the care?

My hatred of King Geroge is because of my belief in the constitution. Guess you will tell me all he has done is inline with the constitution All the government is putting out is to get you ready for another war.


I]t is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
Reichsmarschall Hermann Goering (at the Neuremburg Trials following WWII)

Camp David
February 20, 2006, 01:04 PM
My hatred of King Geroge is because of my belief in the constitution. Guess you will tell me all he has done is inline with the constitution All the government is putting out is to get you ready for another war.

Not to begrudge your opinion lostone1413 but you avoided joab's question! Let me repost it:
"...what is the problem with school bus drivers watching out for things that could endanger the children that have been put in the care?"

joab
February 20, 2006, 01:05 PM
My hatred of King Geroge is because of my belief in the constitution. Guess you will tell me all he has done is inline with the constitution All the government is putting out is to get you ready for another war.And that has exactly what to do with teaching school bus drivers to recognize dangers to the children that they have been charged with ?

I get it you hate Bush, don't repeat yourself answer my question

Crosshair
February 20, 2006, 01:17 PM
The thing that people need to realise that we are never going to have 100% security. Someone, somewhere is going to do something really crazy. We need to fix the big things first before we start screwing around with these little things. Like secure the borders, improve communication between departments, better intelegence, fighting police corruption, etc. This little stuff MIGHT save someone someday, but we need to do a cost/benefit analysis and see how much good it is going to do. As much as some beople do not want to do so, we have to put a $ ammount on a human life to determine what would be the best thing to do.

Old Dog
February 20, 2006, 01:56 PM
The thing that people need to realise that we are never going to have 100% security. Someone, somewhere is going to do something really crazy.So which side are you arguing?
We need to fix the big things first before we start screwing around with these little things. Like secure the borders, improve communication between departments, better intelegence, fighting police corruption, etc. Au contraire; you fix what you can, when you can. Sometimes the little things are easier -- and cheaper -- to fix first.
This little stuff MIGHT save someone someday, but we need to do a cost/benefit analysis and see how much good it is going to do.Now, that's spoken like a true bureaucrat. A cost-benefit analyis? Not when it comes to protection of this country's assets and its children.
As much as some beople do not want to do so, we have to put a $ ammount on a human life to determine what would be the best thing to do.Precisely why things do NOT get done in this country; too much fixation on monetary cost.

Lostone1413 appears to be tryin' real hard to link the administration's policies with those of Hitler's Third Reich. Sorry, in this case, it just doesn't fly.

BigRobT
February 20, 2006, 04:05 PM
The one thing I didn't see ANYBODY address, and if I missed it, please excuse me for being redundant, but with the number of middle easterners already here and the number of them being potential terrorists, the US probably has terrorist cells here, lying in wait. Granted, this is basically a band-aid on a sucking chest wound, but the possibility DOES exist. I don't think it's a bad idea to train people to be aware of potential threats. Heck, I recall, that in San Diego, gate checks were performed routinely with mirrors, dogs, and the like to check vehicles for bombs, etc. It was done more often after 1991.

Personally, I, too, would like to see better border control. Both North AND South. Canada has been all to friendly to those that would want to harm us and the Northern border is just as problematic as the Southern border. Granted, we don't have MS13 on the Northern border, but that border is as easy, if not easier to cross. There have been numerous reports of terrorist cells that are well established in Canada. Just do a quick Google & it's quite obvious.

Manedwolf
February 20, 2006, 04:57 PM
The thing that people need to realise that we are never going to have 100% security. Someone, somewhere is going to do something really crazy. We need to fix the big things first before we start screwing around with these little things. Like secure the borders, improve communication between departments, better intelegence, fighting police corruption, etc. This little stuff MIGHT save someone someday, but we need to do a cost/benefit analysis and see how much good it is going to do. As much as some beople do not want to do so, we have to put a $ ammount on a human life to determine what would be the best thing to do.

A family friend who is a firefighter was overjoyed when I showed them a surplus catalog that had new fuel-fire aluminumized hood/helmet visors cheap.

Due to budget cuts, repeated budget cuts on a state and federal level, they couldn't afford much new equipment at all, and couldn't afford to buy a replacement for the ones they had that had the visors going bad...until they could find them via private secondhand surplus like that.

Tell me how diverting funds AWAY from first responders and instead to "secret decoder ring" schemes like this is making us safer?

Anyone know of local fire departments that have been fully equipped with state-of-the-art NBC suits and extensive containment gear and been given training? Anywhere?

How about unified, high-tech communications systems standardized from department to department, chief's tablet PCs loaded with structural diagrams of all regional buildings that could be hit by something, all of that?

Why not?

GTSteve03
February 20, 2006, 06:39 PM
Not when it comes to protection of this country's ... children.
How can anyone be against this? Remember... (wait for it) ...



IT'S FOR THE CHILDREN!!1!11!one!1!!

Old Dog
February 20, 2006, 06:45 PM
Yep, that's a worthwhile addition to this thread, all right, GTSteve03. Probably easier to make a sarcastic remark than to weigh in with some actual thought on the topic.

NukemJim
February 20, 2006, 07:23 PM
The one thing I didn't see ANYBODY address, and if I missed it, please excuse me for being redundant, but with the number of middle easterners already here and the number of them being potential terrorists, the US probably has terrorist cells here, lying in wait

Yeah, on the first page I posted

Tighten the border security certainly. Try to stop them before coming in yes. BUT Some terrorists are almost certainly here

Yes, IMHO some AQ cells are here. Tightening the border (which I agree needs to be done ) is not going to help with those already here plus to the best of my knowledge no nation has ever had border security that was 100% effective.

The question is not about border security.
The question is could having extra eyes watching either reduce the probabillity of a schoold takeover by terrrorists OR (again IMHO ) more likely help reduce the death toll when a shool is attacked.

Again I hope I am wrong

NukemJim

ingram
February 20, 2006, 07:54 PM
They just want to avoid a Dirty Harry like senario.

Clint eastwood isn't going to be there to jump onto the bus and save your kids. I support this idea 100%.

Oh wait.

I don't really.

Bus drivers are paid to take kids to school and back home. The fact that this idea is proposed says a lot about the failure of those whose responsibility is to prevent and combat terrorism.

But then again, an alert bus driver is not going to be a bad thing. We just don't need to alert every stinking terrorist out there that these drivers are gonna be looking for certain signs. If I was a terrorist, I would just be more cautious in my surveillance and hijacking, knowing this.

joab
February 20, 2006, 09:18 PM
The fact that this idea is proposed says a lot about the failure of those whose responsibility is to prevent and combat terrorism.Who's responsibility is it to protect us from bad men.?

This reminds me of the question from my army promotion board
Who is reaponsible for the motivation of subordinates?

A surprising number of candidates could not even guess the answer.
I suspect that if I asked my first question anywhere else but here an equal percentage would get that answer wrong

Lucky
February 21, 2006, 05:17 AM
"First of all, the state ought to have to prove a need for it's program, and it also should have to proove a failure in the current system of bus-driver's reporting suspicious activity,"
You mean how they had to prove asystem failure with 9-11.
"and then the state ought to also prove that they have the ability to do it better than the bus-drivers."
OK one of us didn't read or comprehend the article


Maybe, I don't know. But I do believe that too many gov't programs are created when they aren't needed. Capitalism works on greed, and greed leads to improvement growth production. Bureaucracies also have greedy people, but they don't produce, they leech, they reproduce like viruses. They might be necessary evils, sometimes, but it should be as seldom as possible. I do respect your opinion, though, so I'll try to elaborate what I'm thinking.

So if bus drivers are already doing this, already driving around, already knowing the neighbourhoods, and already noticing suspicious people, and already reporting them - I have to ask - what is the point of creating a federal, centrally-controlled, bureaucratic framework to house this new system?

My understanding was that concerned citizens did report suspicious persons involved in 9/11. That part of the system did work. The ordinary person's ability to notice suspicious people, and report it was proved. Heck, even that actor reported stuff long before most anyone else imagined it. Aiui, just my understanding, aiui all the failures took place when the concerned individual's information reached the federal centrally-controlled bureaucracies. Even after the attacks dead terrorists had their visa applications renewed, by the bureaucracies.

So, the way I see it, the system ain't broke. Bus drivers have had to look out for threats to the children for a long time, it's not new. Centrally controlled bureaucracies have been failing to succeed at the simplest tasks for the longest time, this is not new either.

If you ask me, putting something under federal central-control is the surest way to make sure it will be done very badly. Your kids are actually less safe, now that a bureaucracy is looking after them.

But what do I know, I live in a different country and I walked to school:neener:

joab
February 21, 2006, 08:09 AM
The reason that the system fail in 01 was because there was no central command to process the bits of info.

Bus drivers may be observing but is there uniformity. Do they know what to look for? Who do they report to if they do know what to look for.

If one driver reports incidents to his supervisor on the east side and one makes a report on the west side of a similar incident who at this time is in place to put the two incidents together to establish a pattern?

This program uses two existing groups of people and teaches them to cooperate.

Lack of cooperation is what is generally blamed for the events of 9/11

BIGJACK
February 21, 2006, 09:11 AM
original by joab: Have you tried to buy fertilizer in bomb making quantities lately.
What kind of checks did they do on you

Hunting clubs and reserves all over the south buy quantities of fertilizer large enough to make several bombs, every spring. Just give the farmers supply the money and haul it off in their spreader.

redbearde
February 21, 2006, 10:19 AM
Sorry, Biker. It's just not that simple. Unless you really do want to live in that dreaded "police state."
So what would "secure borders" look like to you?

A concrete wall and/or a sufficiently large number of landmines will do the trick just fine.

:banghead: :fire:

:D

Merkin.Muffley
February 21, 2006, 10:35 AM
Since they seem to be moving security down to the lowest common denominator (school bus drivers) - why not go one step further and arm the kids? Put them in charge of their own security, not some stoner with a part time job driving a school bus. I'm not proposing arming the kids when they're at school - they could leave their weapons on the bus when at school, and pick them when they board the bus for the ride home.

joab
February 21, 2006, 04:54 PM
Hunting clubs and reserves all over the south buy quantities of fertilizer large enough to make several bombs, every spring. Just give the farmers supply the money and haul it off in their spreader.I'll take that as a no answer.

large quantities of fertilizer are recorded and reported now days and there's a form they fill out for large purchases from new or unfamiliar customers.
The company I worked for routinely bought it in multiple tons as part of their business so we were on record as legitimate users
Some yahoo off the street backing a Ryder truck into the loading bay is not going to meet with as much cooperation
There's a big sign informing you of this at every point of sale I have been to in the last three years at least
We also were required to keep records of where it went and could be and were auditted routinely

Hawkmoon
February 21, 2006, 06:23 PM
So other than you hatred of Bush, or "King George" as you call him, what is the problem with school bus drivers watching out for things that could endanger the children that have been put in the care?
No problem.

But it's a useless initiative. I've sat through a couple of days of government anti-terrorism training. The bottom line? "We can't predict where they will strike next because we KNOW they will strike where we don't expect it."

Honest. That's the official line. So exactly WHAT are they going to teach bus drivers to look out for? Does anyone seriously believe that a self-respecting terrorist group is going to have the SAME person standing on the SAME street corner, wearing the SAME clothes, every day for three weeks straight? Or follow the SAME school bus in the SAME car every day for three weeks? Gimme a break.

This is just more feel-good stuff, and a way for the Feds to through some consulting money at some favored sons who need to put in some face time to justify a ridiculous consulting fee for putting this idiot program together.

joab
February 21, 2006, 07:22 PM
Does anyone seriously believe that a self-respecting terrorist group is going to have the SAME person standing on the SAME street corner, wearing the SAME clothes, every day for three weeks straight? Or follow the SAME school bus in the SAME car every day for three weeks?No i don't which is why I think that this is not a bad idea

If three or four drivers notice the same type of activity on different parts of town there will be a place for reports of those observations to be sent to
As it is three or four drivers that see something odd even if they do report it higher up it does not go in the pile with the other observations and no pattern emerges.

This is the gist of the complaints about the failures of 9/11

There were plenty of warning signs but nobody was cooperating with each other.
If they had a pattern may have emerged and something might have been done to stop them.

Old Dog
February 21, 2006, 10:33 PM
A concrete wall and/or a sufficiently large number of landmines will do the trick just fine. Good luck with that. Apparently you haven't spent much time along any of our borders.

I have concluded that there are many on this forum who, though they may clamor mightily for some sign that our security interests are taken seriously, will clamor stridently and even more strongly against any initiative this government puts forth in the name of counter-terrorism efforts ... "Feel-good meaures!" ... "That's not enough!" ... "The borders must be secure!"

But, alas, thus far ... no practical or constructive suggestions of a specific nature come forth. The fact is, many of the measures suggested to "secure our borders" would actually adversely affect our own good citizens while still not keeping out those who would do us harm ...

People decry anti-terrorist measures they perceive impacting negatively upon our civil liberties, sarcastically dismiss benign, but low-cost and possibly beneficial programs while offering forth ideas ("big walls and landmines") that are even more stupid.

But it's a useless initiative. I've sat through a couple of days of government anti-terrorism training

Well, I've sat through (cumulatively) at least a couple of months worth of anti-terrorism training. And at this point, I'd have to say, along with improving our communication between agencies, services and locations, sometimes the simplest methods of detection are some of the most effective. The eyes of the ordinary citizen, familiar with his/her own terrority and the routines of all that transit through, constitute some of the best detection capabilities we can use to combat a non-traditional enemy.

Autolycus
February 22, 2006, 03:08 AM
"They" are not doing that here, at this point. Seems to me that at this time, energy and funds commited to this feel-good program would be better commited to preventing the potential Ts from gaining entry to this country, and failing that, tracking them down and deporting them as per the ICE mission statement.
Make sense to you?
Does to me.
Biker


Biker... HOW DARE YOU?!

Demanding the government fights the war on terror with logic and common senese...

Who do you think you are? A taxpayer? A concerned citizen? An American?

LAK
February 22, 2006, 04:48 AM
Just another manifestation of the NVKD at work in this country. Building and trying to protect their future.

----------------------------------------------
http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedtstates.org

Fred Fuller
February 22, 2006, 07:33 AM
Most school buses spend half the day (the night-time half) sitting in school parking lots by the dozens/hundreds, or dispersed to the bus driver's home. We're so worried about stolen school buses, now we're going to hire school bus guards, right?

And the school bus drivers that are getting trained to be watchdogs for their communities- these are the same bus drivers that somehow fail to notice the rapes, assaults, thefts, bullying, etc. that is taking place on their own buses on a surprisingly regular basis. Yet they are going to keep an eye on the passing neighborhood? Right. And then do what- call in reports on their specially issued Bat- Phone?

lpl/nc

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/13/AR2005061301642.html

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