[Kestrel]

I have a couple of older model 10s (not ancient, though) and wonder if +P can be fired in them?

Thanks,
Steve

[bountyhunter]

I have the same gun (model 10 with the "slim" barrel) and all I can say is I wouldn't. I love those old guns so much I wouldn't risk it. I have a couple of 686's and a couple of 66's for that kind of blasting.

[chaim]

How much older? Heavy barrel or pencil barrel? My understanding (which may be wrong) is that if it is a heavy barrel model you can safely shoot +P (it is new enough to use modern metalurgy and it also has more metal and weight to handle the +P pressures). I don't think S&W recommends +P+ even in brand new guns (I haven't read the revolver manual in a while but I think it recommends against it). Your best bet would be to actually contact S&W with the serial number of your gun (they'll know when it was made) and they'll be able to give the definitive answer.

[stans]

Yes, you can shoot +P and +P+ ammo in any model 10, the real question is for how long! +P would be safe in the newer model 10's, but I would not make a habit of it in guns that predate the introduction of +P 38 Special ammo. An occasional cylinder full of +P ammo is probably not going to kill any model 10 that is in good condition. +P+ was, as I understand, developed for the FBI for use in model 19's. This was more of a public relations move, it sounds better when agents use the old 38 Special instead of the evil 357 Magnum round.

[Mike Irwin]

Stick with standard velocity in the pencil barrels, and a limited diet of +P through the guns with the heavy barrels.

Standard load for the US Park Police for many years in their Model 10s was Federal 158-gr. Classic 158-gr. +P+.

[HSMITH]

I had a M10 heavy barrel that had seen over 10K rounds of +p loads and 40K rounds total, worked fine till the day I sold it. It was a cop gun for 15 years before I got it.............

[RON in PA]

This comes up quite frequently and I'll reply by paraphrasing the S&W manual. If you have a Smith revolver with the model number stamped in the frame, visable when you open the cylinder (1958 and later), then it's OK to shoot +P ammo. This applies to K,L and N frames. The more modern J frames will say if they are +P suitable on the barrel. +P+ is another ball of wax and I wouldn't use it.

[Mike Irwin]

"Heavy Barrel..."

That's called a good rule of thumb to cover the situation for any and all dumb asses out there...

The Heavy Barrel was introduced after model numbering began, and after heat treating processes were adopted/updated.

Given that many people can't tell/don't know the difference between a Model 10 and a Model of 1905 Hand Ejector 4th Model, both with the light-weight barrels, (well they LOOK the same!), advising standard velocity ammo with the light-weight barrels is an issue of prudence, in my opinion.

What's that about heat treating?

According to a number of sources, heat treat hardening of cylinders on what became the Model 10 did not start until, IIRC, the 1950s.

I've got an e-mail into Rick Nahaus right no on the subject.



"Do you think any ammo maker would sell any ammo that would blow up a quality gun like the S&W M10?"


Certainly not without precedent in the American ammo industry, Saxon.

When Winchester brought out the Model 92, ammo companies brought out a new line of ammo to take advantage of the gun's greather strength.

Winchester called their ammo either High Speed or Super Speed (I'd have to look at my collection when I get home), and a couple of other manufacturers also brought out similar "uploaded" rounds in, I think, .32-20, .44-40, and .38-40 as well as .45-70.

Boxes of the uploaded ammo were specifically stamped they it was ONLY for Winchester Model 92 or Model 1886 rifles, not the 1873 or the Trapdoor or Colt Single Action Army revolvers.

Yet within a short period of time the ammo companies started getting a LOT of heat from people who had blown the sideplates off their 1873s or bulged the topstraps on their SAAs....

[Gary A]

I have a Model 10 pencil barrel that was made in 1994, the last year of production. It's a 10-8 or 9, I forget, and is perfectly up to handling plus P. I also have a nickeled 10-5 pencil barrel which is also OK for plus P. I don't shoot that many of them anyway but I agree with those who have referenced the manual, i.e. numbered models manufactured after 1958 are approved for plus P with the admonition that high performance ammo naturally accelerates wear, as in any revolver or pistol. I would never shoot plus P plus in any .38 I have with the exception of a GP100 chambered for .38 that I found used and just had to have. Now that is a tank of a .38!!

[chaim]

SaxonPig Ed.D. (:D ),

That is the best advice I think I've heard someone give in a long time.

[Old Fuff]

I doubt that any "+P" or "+P+" .38 Special cartridge would blow up a post-1950's model 10. However extensive use might (just might) loosen the gun up and cause among other things, excessive end play with the cylinder. So I have a question for those who feel the need for these extra-hot cartridges.

If you question they're use in a .38 revolver why not buy a .357 Magmum?

[Lone Star]

I have discussed this matter with the S&W factory and read about all that's been printed on it for many years, beginning with Chick Gaylord's, "Handgunner's Guide", circa 1960.

It doesn't matter whether one has the standard or heavy barrel. If the frame is marked, "Model 10", it's post-1957, and is okay with Plus P. Later guns are probably even stronger. Plus P came out about 1974, by the way. (The heavy bbl. guns do kick slightly less.)

Plus P+ is "police only" ammo, that had to be purchased with a letterhead acknowledgement to the ammo maker that the department ordering it realized that it WOULD create premature wear on guns, and was only meant for use in .357 guns. It was purely a PR ploy to avoid admitting that the department was using hot ammo in lieu of "normal" .38's. There IS NO SAAMI pressure standard for Plus P Plus. I wouldn't use it at all.

Gaylord made a point of saying that the then-new version of the Model 10/M&P was made of a new steel, and would withstand hotter loads than older guns. Nevertheless, he pointed out that the Colt Official Police (built on their .41 frame) was still better if one wanted to load up a .38 really hot. That's true, but if you want that level of performance, a .38 isn't the answer at all, unless it's one of the discontinued S&W models built on the N-frame.

Frequent use of Plus P in K-frames can loosen the gun sooner. The USAF complained about this when they went looking for a 9mm to replace their S&W M15's. But I think a lot of that wear was due to certain guns being used for years for training. Probably, guns asigned to working SP or aircrew units were shot less and held up better than those assigned to SP School at Lackland AFB, where many trainees shot the bejabbers out of the available guns. (I am, by the way, a graduate of that school.)

Hope this helps. If in doubt about this, contact the gun manufacturer. Asking at a forum like this will get answers from people who don't necessarily qualify to be giving gun advice. Even here, for every Johnny Guest, we have some ...other persons.

Lone Star

[Topgun]

Mr Newby goes to the gun store to get his first gun. He of course asks to see the SIG P210 or the HK P7 as he has read THR and a gun magazine and knows that's what he wants.

A helpful clerk (who weirdly DOES know guns) suggests a .38 Special revolver for Mr. Newby.

Mr. Newby is aghast! This is his FIRST and ONLY pistol and he wants what the magazine says is good.

The clerk says "well, you can shoot PLUS P loads in it."

Mr Newby's ears perk up.

"And you can save about $1000 at the same time."

Mr Newby goes home with his new .38 spl. revolver and the +P (or +P+ if he is REALLY expecting trouble) and is happy that he does not have regular old .38 spl shells that are non-lethal cartridges.

And his gun is probably going to be OK as he doesn't intend to practice anyhow.

[Mike Irwin]

Just heard back from Rick Nahaus, and you were closer than I was, Saxon. According to him, S&W began heat treating the cylinders on its revolvers in 1935.


"I was looking at the ballistics for the +P .38 Special loads from one of the major manufacturers and was somewhat less than bowled over by the numbers."

You, me, and CR Sam.


"So, where is all this increased chamber pressure that everyone is so concerned about? Am I doing something wrong, here? Are the +P loads really running pressures all that much higher than the standard loads?"

According to the pressure ratings seen with some reloading information, I think the chamber pressure is there, but the velocity just isn't for some reason.

"But, is it not the battering from recoil that loosens a gun?"

I think the effects of chamber pressure, especially with a revolver, in which the cylinder is essentially free floating, would be more. Recoil is a byproduct of chamber pressure.

Take, for example, the .22 LR Stinger cartridges. Some of those work in the 50,000 psi range. Virtually no recoil to speak of, but you can batter the living hell out of a cheap gun in not too many rounds, or even an S&W with a lot of shooting.

My personal 125-gr. loads out of a .357 Mag. will clock nearly 1,600 fps. out of my 4" Model 28, and I know I'm not top lining there.

[El Tejon]

Steve, just think of shooting +Ps like taking your car out on the I and running 100+. Yes, you can, but your weapon will not last as long.

Another justification for purchasing more guns!:D

[Jim K]

The +P is nothing more that the type of "hot" .38 Special load that handloaders have been putting together for decades. It should be no problem in any Model 10 or late M&P. S&W probably uses the model number as a convenient way of weeding out the old "pencil barrel" and WWII vintage M&Ps that really are not up to the hotter load.

The +P+ is a different story. It was never sold on the market, so ranting that they won't sell over power ammo really does not apply. +P+ works at close to .357 pressures. It was specifically designated for law enforcement and to be used only in revolvers chambered for .357 Magnum. The others are correct in calling it a "PR" round, but it will shake even a modern Model 10 loose and can cause problems in as little as 200 rounds.

No +P+ should be available at gun shops for Mr. Newby. If it is, the clerk should be very careful of his customers because legally, the shop may be charged with possession of stolen property.

Jim

[Mike Irwin]

No, no serial numbers.

I'm actually sort of surprised it was so early.

By the way.

You and I share a birthday.

Happy happy to you.

[Mike Irwin]

I've bought +P+ from ammo dealers at gunshows a number of times in the past.

Not always easy to find.

[Gordon]

Happy Birth day. Yup +P+ is scary in prewar or J or Colt D frames or Model 12 (NOW I know) but seems like a good hot 28000 lb load in 50's and up k and up steel frames. It equals the old .38-44 load I think, which of course was only supposed to be used in S&W N frames and Colt New service . I used to use +P+ in Colt D frames until I saw the pictures in Colt gunsmithing book with the cylinder blown from 1 shot.